Who should wear the white coat?

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I sure hope none of you apply to my service for a residency because I surely don't want attitudes like this on my team.[/QUOTE]

Please give us the benefit of your real name, hospital and specialty so the word can quickly be passed not to apply for rotations or residencies anywhere around you. Of course, anyone on an anonymous forum can claim to be anything at all, can't they

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sdnetrocks said:
Just because I will have an MD will not make me "better" than anyone else, but it WILL make me MORE EDUCATED than most. And to suggest otherwise, as well as crazy schemes where everyone dresses the same, is some terribly misguided commie-style thinking.

Having an MD may mean that you know more about the care of any particular patient, and may mean that you have more years of formal education and/or post graduate training than the other people in the room. It depends on who is in the room, and how big of a tool you are.

As for "commie-style thinking," hospital scrubs are designed to prevent contamination of one's street clothes, car, home, and loved ones, as well as reduce the spread of nosocomial infections. If you are concerned about your identity might I suggest that you look down at your chest and read your damned ID badge.
 
Telemachus said:
As for "commie-style thinking," hospital scrubs are designed to prevent contamination of one's street clothes, car, home, and loved ones, as well as reduce the spread of nosocomial infections. If you are concerned about your identity might I suggest that you look down at your chest and read your damned ID badge.

I have no problem with scrubs. I'm just not convinced that every member of the health care team should wear the same uniform.

ID badges are great. However, the font is usually much too small to read from more than a few feet away. And, indeed, badges may be facing the wrong way some of the time. Conversely, a long white coat, or pale blue/green scrubs, (or whatever) are always visible and glaringly obvious from any distance.

Random PS: Since we're on the subject, tangentially, what's the deal with people wearing t-shirts instead of their scrub tops while on call??
 
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It never ceases to amuse me reading these threads...you guys need to get a life! Bunch of morans.
 
odrade1 said:
One thing I see a fair amount of on SDN is people misunderstanding others' use & intentions behind subjects where prestige, titles, etc come up. Often what I read as someone wanting recognition for their (superior) level of education is taken by other posters to be equivalent to that person maintaining that they are 'better' than others without the MD/PhD degree. People inevitibly get rather righteous about this, probably because they (correctly) believe that no-one is "better" than anyone else, so the arrogant attitude must be corrupt and unjustified. As I read over this thread, it occurred to me that people seem to be intuiting 2 different meanings of the term "better than" when it comes to comparing the relative merits or worth of 2 individuals.
At this time I would like to draw your attention to the following distinction:
1) There is a sense of 'better' that is used on this thread that is tied up with the idea that no person is better than or worth more than another person. This is usually used to drive home the point that the people who want docs to wear longer coats than non-docs must be @ssholes.
2) There is a sense of 'better' that does not include an evaluation of someones worth as a human being. It is commonly (though not universally) thought that humans have equivalent worth, qua human. There is a sense in which I am not better or worth more than a murderer on death row. There is also a sense in which I am better than other people. I have far more education than most people. My education is broader than most people. I learn faster than most people. I am healthier than many people. I am better looking than many people. I have more money than many people, etc... (I am using these expressions as examples, not making actual claims about my appearance or financial status). There is a sense in which I am better than a janitor (we come from different social classes) and there is a sense that I am the janitor's peer, as a fellow human.

The fact of the matter is that no matter what you do, SOME patients will still be confused about who is doing what at the hospital. Since nothing we can do will eliminate all the confusion, what can we do to ameliorate some of the confusion? Badges help. Standardized Uniforms help, and introducing yourself properly helps.

I want to wear a long coat. If I had my way, non-docs wouldn't wear the coat. Part of the reason for this is that I feel that I have worked harder to achieve a higher status than other people working at the hospital. The coat can be a symbol of my merits from the second sense of 'better' mentioned above, and I like that. Is an olympic athelete an @sshole for wearing her gold medal? Is she an @sshole if she gets angry at the thought of all those she competed with (who didn't win) getting to wear gold medals too? The truth is that long coats have been a historical symbol of status, rank, and education level, and those that value the work put into those ends may feel frustrated or angry when a symbol that they value is de-valued. Some religious people feel upset when their religious symbols are put on t-shirts & race-cars, etc, or are worn as accessories by people who do not share their beliefs. I think those feelings are valid too.

Someone who wants a long coat because they feel it makes them better as a human than others is an @dingus, and probably isn't where they need to be as a person, to minister to others as a physician. However, someone who wants a long coat because they feel it is a symbol of their hard work is not wrong for wanting to wear the coat. Also, because they value the symbolic meaning of the coat, they are entitled to feel frustrated when others who have not achieved the same status adopt what is a historical symbol of status in that work environment. Nurses, PAs, etc. have worked to get where they are, and they play critical roles in providing care to our patients, but but they are not the educational or social-status equivalents of physicians or research professors. Wanting to wear a lab coat is not about denying the valuable work that Nurses, PAs, etc do. It is about affirming the status & authority of the one in the lab coat. A nurse's uniform & her school pin distinguish her from a janitor in stained coveralls. Is a nurse wrong for not wanting to be mistaken for a homeless person, a janitor, or a nurse's assistant? Hell no.
Formalizing rules for uniforms at hospitals (including the no MD/PhD, no long coat rule) WOULD decrease confusion among patients. But this is not necessarily a sufficient reason for doing so. I think it is acceptable to want to maintain the historic meaning of the lab coat, and it is acceptable to want to deny the long coat to people who haven't achieved the status associated with the coat.

This is one of the most elitist posts I have ever read!

When I see my podiatric surgeon next (yes, DPM means doctor of podiatry), I better remind him to take his white coat off. You see only MD's are entitled to wear it. :rolleyes:
 
toofache32 said:
I bet I can pee farther than the rest of you,

:thumbup: The same thought was running through my head too.

I really can't believe that this thread is still alive. This thing needs a DNR.
 
made me laugh too. that and the person who keeps spelling "wear" where (and more than once, too, which clearly makes it not a typo). maybe only people who can spell should get to wear a long white coat . . .

to the OP and those who have tried to keep this thread on topic without belittling those trying to an express an opinion and get helpful feedback, i salute you. i agree that there should be more standardization in the hospital as far as knowing who is who, and not just on behalf of the patients' confusion, but on behalf of mine too! i never know who anyone is, and i hate trying to figure who i can ask what, etc., without offending anyone.

i think anyone and everyone who has a white coat should simply make sure it is clearly embroidered with their name and position, fully spelled out. Its not that big of a deal to get your coat embroidered, and embroidery can't get flipped around backwards. and the font on coats is pretty large. plus, having your title fully spelled out (nurse practicioner vs NP) is less confusing. i think that would help a little . . .(assuming the embroidery isn't covered up by a bunch of pens, etc).

for example:

Dr John Smith, DO
Pulmonary

Dr Jane Doe, PhD
Neuro Research

Dr Sue Williams
Pharmacist

Karen Brown
Physician Assistant

Bob Jones
Nurse, IV Team

etc., etc., etc. . . .
 
raspberry swirl said:
made me laugh too. that and the person who keeps spelling "wear" where (and more than once, too, which clearly makes it not a typo). maybe only people who can spell should get to wear a long white coat . . .

to the OP and those who have tried to keep this thread on topic without belittling those trying to an express an opinion and get helpful feedback, i salute you. i agree that there should be more standardization in the hospital as far as knowing who is who, and not just on behalf of the patients' confusion, but on behalf of mine too! i never know who anyone is, and i hate trying to figure who i can ask what, etc., without offending anyone.

i think anyone and everyone who has a white coat should simply make sure it is clearly embroidered with their name and position, fully spelled out. Its not that big of a deal to get your coat embroidered, and embroidery can't get flipped around backwards. and the font on coats is pretty large. plus, having your title fully spelled out (nurse practicioner vs NP) is less confusing. i think that would help a little . . .(assuming the embroidery isn't covered up by a bunch of pens, etc).

for example:

Dr John Smith, DO
Pulmonary

Dr Jane Doe, PhD
Neuro Research

Dr Sue Williams
Pharmacist

Karen Brown
Physician Assistant

Bob Jones
Nurse, IV Team

etc., etc., etc. . . .

Very interesting manipulation of the previous suggestions. Nice work.
 
The funny thing is how this issue is so utterly irrelevant outside of the confines of an academic teaching hospital. You know, the world of community hospitals, where you don't have a 'team' but rather individual physicians taking care of their patients. The patients know their doc (and his PA) and the institution is small enough that the staff knows each other without looking at the labcoats.

(Dr John Smith, DO is redundant. It is either John Smith, DO or Dr John Smith, physician)


Oh and for the OP. You are so sad that your thread wandered off topic. I think it was exactly on topic for people ripping your attitude about who 'deserves' to wear what:

Something else that annoys me is that I'm wearing a short coat, while everyone around me is wearing the long coat, be they pro's or not. I always thought that the white coat was a mark of distinction. Don't get me wrong, I don't need MD emblazoned across my forehead to validate myself, but I just thought it was a kinda privelage to wear a white coat. Oh well, maybe I'm just a little old-fashioned.

The patients potential confusion (imho the only valid argument for a standardized dress code) seemed to be only a footnote in your initial post.
 
Two words: color code

Everyone should wear scrubs, but everyone should wear different colored scrubs based on their position in the hospital (doctor, resident, medical student, nurse, lab tech, etc). They should have their names embroidered or have a tag that says their Name and Degree (John Smith, MD/PhD, Jane Doe, DO, etc).

And there should be a little card by every bed that describes the color code to the patient.

What we have right now, which is everyone wearing a white coat, and some lab techs wearing longer white coats than residents, is bullcrap. Patients are probably disoriented enough as it is, the last thing they need is to have to figure out who is doing what to them.

And if anyone should support this, aside from the patients themselves, it should be the women. Now you might not even get called nurse all the time even though you have an MD.
 
Fantasy Sports said:
...And if anyone should support this, aside from the patients themselves, it should be the women. Now you might not even get called nurse all the time even though you have an MD.
It's a safe assumption.
 
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I find it ironic that many want to be noticed as a physician while at the same time not wanting other doctorates to be noticed for their hardwork. In fact, I see a lot of jealousy.

I worked very hard to get a PHD before going on to med school. In fact, I even worked harder in my PHD program: doing well in coursework, performing well on comp exams, writing a juried dissertation, having to teach along with holding office hours for students, and conducting research. Being junior faculty AND a student just to get the doctorate degree was much more work than med school. My podiatrist worked very hard in school and in residency to be doing what he is doing. So, grow up and let others get the recognition that they so deserve.
 
gregMD said:
How do people like you get into medical school? OUR patients? A patient is just as much a nurses patient as it is mine - in fact, in a given day, i'd say that the nurses have more contact with a given patient than I do, as i have hundreds to see, and they are the ones administering meds, carrying out orders etc. So for you to sit there and speak from a behind a text book, having never actually seen a patient, absolutely typifies ignorance.

The fact that we got into medical school and got our degrees does not confer ANY type of educational superiority over any of the support staff. If there is a whole generation of medical students that think like you than we are doomed.

I hope on your first rotation you speak your mind and watch the nurses take you apart - limb from limb.... no wait - that wont happen because you will be wearing your white coat shield of honor...........

If you read my original post carefully you would have noticed that I did not denigrate the role of non-docs in patient care. My use of the word 'our' appears to have been ambiguous, however. The civilized thing to do when one encounters a confusing or ambiguous claim while reading the work of another (whether in a journal, book, or a website) is to interpret the claim in a way that assumes the rationality and sincerity of the author. This is called the charity principle. I intended the use of 'our' in the broadly inclusive sense--to include those who give professional care to patients--which includes nurses, PAs, etc. Also, I never made any claims about who spends more time with patients, so your tone comes off as combatitive and malicious.
Since you don't actually know anything about my level of experience in hospitals or my knowledge of the disparate roles of physicians and nurses, perhaps it would be best to stick to criticisms of my arguments as they appear in the text?

I stand behind my claim that more education = educational superiority. That just is what it means to be more educated. An MD is a higher degree than a BA. A doctor of podiatry has a higher degree than someone with a BA or MA. etc... Also, I encourage you to read again the part of my post that draws the distinction between evaluative claims qua human value vs qua particular domains. It seems your response is merely more evidence of the confusion I cite at the beginning of that post. It is alright to be uncomfortable claiming that you are superior to another person (which you seem to be) if you are thinking in terms of the first sense of 'better than.' However, it is ridiculous to refrain from making a claim that someone with more education is not educationally superior to someone with less education. An elitist is someone who sees her superiority in secondary characteristics (such as educational status, social status, wealth, race) as a reason for believing that she is better (as a human) than others, or (if you prefer) that she has more human value than another. I have assumed (for the sake of argument) that this type of thinking is misguided (at best) or immoral (at worst), though we could debate this too if someone wanted to.

Elsewhere someone pointed out that the origin of the use of lab coats was for cleanliness, not status. I am not a historian, but this sounds correct and reasonable to me. However, I am less interested in why docs started wearing the coat (in practical terms, for cleanliness' sake) as much as I am interested in drawing our attention to the fact that they have--for some time--been possessed of a certain amount of symbolic value. A thing can have both a functional value and a symbolic value. The symbolic value (per rank/status) of the lab coat was of particular interest to me in the last posting.

Perhaps one of the underlying differences between the two sides of this debate is actually about how each side interprets the sybolic value of the lab coat? Some seem to see the coat as symbolic of elitist attitudes among physicians, or class oppression, etc... Others seem to see the coat as symbolic of merit & rank, and perhaps honor. Interestingly, a real @sshole would see it as an elitist, opprssive symbol and want to wear the coat for precisely that reason.
I would be willing to bet money that there would be a correllation between the pro-promiscuous-labcoat group and a tendency to see the use of the coat a symbol of elitism/class oppression/etc.
 
This thread is absolutely hilarious. You all realize that the reasons physicians started wearing lab coats wasn't just about cleanliness. It was to cash in on the prestige of science and scientists. As much as you may not want to believe this, it's true. :laugh: So according to the logic many of you are using the only ones who should be allowed the white coat should be research docs and PhDs.
 
jimbomcbean said:
This thread is absolutely hilarious. You all realize that the reasons physicians started wearing lab coats wasn't just about cleanliness. It was to cash in on the prestige of science and scientists. As much as you may not want to believe this, it's true. :laugh: So according to the logic many of you are using the only ones who should be allowed the white coat should be research docs and PhDs.
whats even more interesting is that the only real reason why you guys are trying to argue for who gets to wear the lab coat is because you all want to feel validated in a society that is based on seniority and rank. Thats why we have things such as chiefs, attendings, residents, med students, etc. the truth is you guys want to feel that you guys are equal to a MD when MDs are the only real physicians that society acknowledges - maybe this is wrong, but its true. Its life. When people think of medicine they think of Doctors...I think its great that we have things such as DO, PA, NP, etc. but honestly these professions came about to HELP MD's, not to be their equal. The reason why threads like these exists is simply due to an inherent knowledge that they will never be the equivalent of MDs but like anybody in society, want to feel validated by getting others to agree with them. Misery loves company.
 
f_w said:
The funny thing is how this issue is so utterly irrelevant outside of the confines of an academic teaching hospital. You know, the world of community hospitals, where you don't have a 'team' but rather individual physicians taking care of their patients. The patients know their doc (and his PA) and the institution is small enough that the staff knows each other without looking at the labcoats.

(Dr John Smith, DO is redundant. It is either John Smith, DO or Dr John Smith, physician)


Oh and for the OP. You are so sad that your thread wandered off topic. I think it was exactly on topic for people ripping your attitude about who 'deserves' to wear what:



The patients potential confusion (imho the only valid argument for a standardized dress code) seemed to be only a footnote in your initial post.

I see.
I reread my post, and it starts, and ends with the topic of confusion, and only briefly addresses my thoughts about earning a white coat in the middle. Hence, I think your classification of confusion as a footnote seems to be flawed.
For arguments sake I will assume that it isn't flawed, though. I would like to refer you to one of my previous posts where I mentioned that it's one of my cultural beliefs that white coats are earned by MD/DO's. Even so, this also ties in to the fact that pt's seemed less confused in that system, than in ours, so it is relevant. Another thing I'm curious about... did anyone have a "white coat ceremony" at the start of med school?
Also, to the others replying about scientits wearing WC's... I've addressed this b4 as well. Feel free to peruse my previous post about "situational" WC's.
Keep 'em coming :)
 
lvspro said:
I see.
I reread my post, and it starts, and ends with the topic of confusion, and only briefly addresses my thoughts about earning a white coat in the middle. Hence, I think your classification of confusion as a footnote seems to be flawed.
For arguments sake I will assume that it isn't flawed, though. I would like to refer you to one of my previous posts where I mentioned that it's one of my cultural beliefs that white coats are earned by MD/DO's. Even so, this also ties in to the fact that pt's seemed less confused in that system, than in ours, so it is relevant. Another thing I'm curious about... did anyone have a "white coat ceremony" at the start of med school?
Also, to the others replying about scientits wearing WC's... I've addressed this b4 as well. Feel free to peruse my previous post about "situational" WC's.
Keep 'em coming :)


I honestly cant believe you all are debating this - dont medical students have anything better to do with thier time?

Oh please... pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease can i wear a white coat too??
 
rdc said:
I honestly cant believe you all are debating this - dont medical students have anything better to do with thier time?

Oh please... pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease can i wear a white coat too??
First of all you are a vet student. You shouldn't even been in this forum. Isn't there a vet forum more suited for you? As for the rest. Only MD's should wear lab coats - period. Closed this thread now.
 
NTM said:
First of all you are a vet student. You shouldn't even been in this forum. Isn't there a vet forum more suited for you? As for the rest. Only MD's should wear lab coats - period. Closed this thread now.

The vet students aren't nearly this entertaining.
 
rdc said:
I honestly cant believe you all are debating this - dont medical students have anything better to do with thier time?

Oh please... pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease can i wear a white coat too??


Since you're not even in a human hospital setting, I'm not too sure if your input is even relevant at all. Assuming it is, though, it appears you haven't read the thread b/c you're addressing only the tangential topic, and ignoring the main idea.
 
lvspro said:
Since you're not even in a human hospital setting, I'm not too sure if your input is even relevant at all. Assuming it is, though, it appears you haven't read the thread b/c you're addressing only the tangential topic, and ignoring the main idea.

the tangetial topic has dominated this thread - so i'd say that it has become the main idea.

And trust me, i wouldn't even begin to to try and combat the attitude that most MDs take towards vets... i'm sure that my input will never be relevant to you.
 
"...when MDs are the only real physicians that society acknowledges - maybe this is wrong, but its true. Its life. When people think of medicine they think of Doctors...I think its great that we have things such as DO, PA, NP, etc. but honestly these professions came about to HELP MD's, not to be their equal."

(Keep repeating, "I will be civil, I will be civil.")
I could not help but to reply to this post in an effort of clarification. The only "real doctors" are not, however, just "MD's". As, Europe which is the forbearer of all our culture and traditions, awards physicians the MBBS degree (which is an undergraduate degree by the way) and uses the "MD" as a Research degree for physicians similar to our dual degree DO/MD,PhD physicians.

Secondly, the DO degree was not "created" in any way to "help out MD's" (yessah massah). The poster should do more research (I suggest "The Difference a D.O. Makes') and they would see that the founder of the D.O profession was an MD, who founded the profession in deference to the detrimental "treatments" of the day by "MD's." (e.g. bloodletting - which killed George Washington who had a ordinary CAP, or the use of mercury :eek: and other toxin substances as a "curative agent" for patients.)

The D.O philosophy merely advocated that the body was capable of healing itself, a concept we now know to be true (but was ahead of its time) D.O philosophy just advocates health, eating properly, excercise and manipulation (sound like preventive medicine to you? - a "new concept") in addition to standard evidence based medicine. Hope that helps, and remember such elitist attitudes don't fly in the "real world."

Otherwise I have a suggestion: different color coats (e.g attendings regardless of DO/MD/PhD/PharmD/DPM/Etc get a blue coat, residents get a brown coat, and students and rest get white coats. Such a system is used in many of the Chicago hospitals) Clearly marked embroidery on chest (e.g. Mishka, D.O Greatest EM Resident EVER!) and color coding for scrubs (medical gets black, surgical green, nurses blue, ancillary brown, etc - such a system is used at my base hospital) and a card to explain the whole confusing mess to patients. Or you could just do what you were instructed to do in med school and introduce yourself properly. :laugh:

Best Wishes,

The Mish
 
"So according to the logic many of you are using the only ones who should be allowed the white coat should be research docs and PhDs.[/QUOTE]

Since when did anyone say that. Again I think it is ironic how physicians/med students complain about wanting to be noticed. Yet these same people need to take away from others whom have worked just as hard and maybe harder.

You know I have crushing news for all of you. You may want to sit down for this. The pharmd programs have white coat ceremonies for their students! :eek: How can these programs do that to us?!

Now I am off to tell my podiatric surgeon that he better not wear his white coat anymore.

By the way, I showed this thread to a few residents and a preceptor. They were surprised and amused at these responses. They felt that many of you need to grow up! You are like children unable to share your toys.
 
namaste said:
...Being junior faculty AND a student just to get the doctorate degree was much more work than med school...
That's the point I was trying to make earlier. For some reason, med students think that there is no academic endeavor more difficult than med school, probably because their mommy told them so.

And the Vet guys can post anywhere they darn-well please, just like the rest of us.

And I agree this is hilarious.
 
omfsres said:
You have patients in the same way a medical student has patients. You get to do stuff while being supervised by the person who really "has" the patient.
You have no clue do you.....last time I checked med students can't run an er with no doc present, write rx's using their own dea # and choose who to present.
here's my situation:
job: solo er 16 hr shifts. no doc on site.I run codes. stabilize trauma/mi's, etc and ship to tertiary facility as needed. the vast majority I d/c home without md consult
supervision: 10% of charts chosen by me to be reviewed within 1 month

pa's do quite a bit more than you think. they run small/rural er's( as above),staff icu's, run health clinics, act as pcp's for lots of pts all over the world, 1st assist in the o.r. etc
know who 1st assisted on clinton's bypass? a p.a.
supervision requirements vary from state to state. in north carolina the requirement is one 30 min meeting with an md every 6 months to discuss the practice. in california no chart review is required unless a sch 2 narcotic is written.
 
emedpa said:
You have no clue do you.....last time I checked med students can't run an er with no doc present, write rx's using their own dea # and choose who to present.
here's my situation:
job: solo er 16 hr shifts. no doc on site.I run codes. stabilize trauma/mi's, etc and ship to tertiary facility as needed. the vast majority I d/c home without md consult
supervision: 10% of charts chosen by me to be reviewed within 1 month

pa's do quite a bit more than you think. they run small/rural er's( as above),staff icu's, run health clinics, act as pcp's for lots of pts all over the world, 1st assist in the o.r. etc
know who 1st assisted on clinton's bypass? a p.a.
supervision requirements vary from state to state. in north carolina the requirement is one 30 min meeting with an md every 6 months to discuss the practice. in california no chart review is required unless a sch 2 narcotic is written.
just one clarification...once med students pass step 3 and get their license they will be able to run their the er, right rx using their own DEA, etc, and their responsibility changes. After a pa passes ther "pants" your title changes from physician assistant student to physician assistant and you guys still wont be able to run the er? Im not trying to be bashing just curious. Also, can you guys write your own prescrips?
 
NTM said:
just one clarification...once med students pass step 3 and get their license they will be able to run their the er, right rx using their own DEA, etc, and their responsibility changes. After a pa passes ther "pants" your title changes from physician assistant student to physician assistant and you guys still wont be able to run the er? Im not trying to be bashing just curious. Also, can you guys write your own prescrips?

yes, a certified pa can run an er by themselves.this is not a position for a new grad but someone with years of experience. this happens mostly in small/rural depts with low pt volumes, typically less than 15k pts/yr. I am doing this right now in a facility that saw 23k pts last yr.
busier depts may add an fp doc. once you reach fairly busy/metropolitan depts the standard is residency trained/board certified er docs seeing the sickest pts with fp md's and pa's seeing the fast track/urgent care/intermediate acuity type patients.

yes, we get our own dea #'s. I have full sch 2 rx rights without cosignature.

pa's work in a variety of settings in em from fast track/urgent care all the way up to solo practice in pa only emergency depts(rural) with distant supervision(typically in the form of chart review).
sample job posting from national recruiter:

SOUTHWEST GEORGIA RURAL ER!

Rural Southwest Georgia Hospital has IMMEDIATE opening for Physician Assistant in the emergency room. Join team of two other PAs in sharing coverage duties. Must have at least three years experience in an emergency room and be capable of independent practice. acls/atls/pals required. Solo position requires comfort with a full range of medical and trauma patients.
Great quality of life in rural, agricultural based community with easy access to larger cities. Excellent hospital system with long history of physician assistant utilization. Salary $75-90K to start plus production bonuses. Exceptional cafeteria-style benefit package including paid CME, professional memberships, licensure, malpractice insurance, retirement and relocation!
 
emedpa said:
yes, a certified pa can run an er by themselves.this is not a position for a new grad but someone with years of experience. this happens mostly in small/rural depts with low pt volumes, typically less than 15k pts/yr. I am doing this right now in a facility that saw 23k pts last yr.
busier depts may add an fp doc. once you reach fairly busy/metropolitan depts the standard is residency trained/board certified er docs seeing the sickest pts with fp md's and pa's seeing the fast track/urgent care/intermediate acuity type patients.

yes, we get our own dea #'s. I have full sch 2 rx rights without cosignature.

pa's work in a variety of settings in em from fast track/urgent care all the way up to solo practice in pa only emergency depts(rural) with distant supervision(typically in the form of chart review).
sample job posting from national recruiter:

SOUTHWEST GEORGIA RURAL ER!

Rural Southwest Georgia Hospital has IMMEDIATE opening for Physician Assistant in the emergency room. Join team of two other PAs in sharing coverage duties. Must have at least three years experience in an emergency room and be capable of independent practice. acls/atls/pals required. Solo position requires comfort with a full range of medical and trauma patients.
Great quality of life in rural, agricultural based community with easy access to larger cities. Excellent hospital system with long history of physician assistant utilization. Salary $75-90K to start plus production bonuses. Exceptional cafeteria-style benefit package including paid CME, professional memberships, licensure, malpractice insurance, retirement and relocation!
thanks a lot for the Info. I have nothing against PA's at all, I just wanted to be educated on the field of PA. On a side note, a lot of PA's find MD's attractive?
 
"a lot of PA's find MD's attractive?"

well, some are better looking than others so it depends....:)
I assume you meant do many pa's go on to become md's?
some do but the more typical path is to D.O. as they are more accepting of older students with life/clinical experiences.
 
emedpa said:
"a lot of PA's find MD's attractive?"

well, some are better looking than others so it depends....:)
I assume you meant do many pa's go on to become md's?
some do but the more typical path is to D.O. as they are more accepting of older students with life/clinical experiences.
no you were correct the first time. Do a lot of PA's find MD's attractive in the physical sense....are you guys more apt to date MD's in the field?
 
most pa's I know are married to folks who don't work in medicine although I have a former male student who married his female em attending.....
 
Why is no one responding to my color code idea?

Is it stupid/good/neither? :confused:
 
Fantasy Sports said:
Why is no one responding to my color code idea?

Is it stupid/good/neither? :confused:


Since you asked....

It is one of the most idiotic ideas that I have ever read on SDN. I don't know you but if I judged you ONLY on this idea, I would think you are complete dolt.
 
Shah_Patel_PT said:
I always see these PAs and other allied professionals wear these long coats...the annoying this is they always have there ID card turned backwards...so patients really dont know who the MD is. And like the other poster said earlier..they never correct the patient when they are called doc. :mad:

Along the same lines as white coats and ptient confusion, when my father in law was in the hospital for colon cancer last year, he had a seizure and i went running in to the hall yelling for a nurse or a doctor and 4 people walked by in scrubs and i went running up to them to get help, and none of the people in scrubs were medical/nursing staff! Why in the wordl are janitorial and dietary staff wearing scrubs? As a family member of a paiteint it was quite frustrating to think all theses people were there to help and none of them actually could. (we didn't pull the call light/button because we couldn't find it and the only person who knew where it was located was having the seizure :rolleyes: they need to have huge bold print signs for the ermengency buttons!)
 
smkoepke said:
Why in the wordl are janitorial and dietary staff wearing scrubs?

They come into contact with hazardous materials/fluids, etc just like anyone else in the hospital, therefore they can't wear street clothes either. It is not only most cost effective for the hospital to stick to 1 type of scrubs for everyone, but then you don't open the can of worms of who gets what color scrubs (doctors and nurses the same color? yes/no? are you sure? what about PAs and NPs? then what about techs? what about janitors and facilities staff? and if you do want different colors, what do you do if someone wears the wrong color? And how confused will the pateients and families be when they see people wearing million different colored scrubs?)
 
Telemachus said:
And how confused will the pateients and families be when they see people wearing million different colored scrubs?)

Uhhh.. certainly no more than they would be if everyone wore the same color. How about instead of color, you just put a big fat embroidered "PHYSICIAN"/"PA"/"KING OF ENGLAND" on the back. Problems solved. Let everyone wear scrubs, that's not the point that the last poster was making. The point is that the patients would be less confused if the players were distinct in some visible way.

Then again, I could just be a pretentious jerk. :rolleyes:

HamOn
 
HamOnWholeWheat said:
Uhhh.. certainly no more than they would be if everyone wore the same color. How about instead of color, you just put a big fat embroidered "PHYSICIAN"/"PA"/"KING OF ENGLAND" on the back. Problems solved. Let everyone wear scrubs, that's not the point that the last poster was making. The point is that the patients would be less confused if the players were distinct in some visible way.

Then again, I could just be a pretentious jerk. :rolleyes:

HamOn

This was my point exactly. I am a soon to be RN student (spring 06) and I already recognize the need to be able to quickly distinguish who is who. (i think hospitals let everybody wear scrubs and lab coats so that the public thinks there are more medical/nursing staff than there really is...)
 
As an aside, anyone who's worked in surgery knows how confusing THAT place is. Everyone wears the same damn pale-blue shade of scrubs. Throw in the surgical masks and caps into the equation and, well...

Me: "Excuse me doctor, I'm the new student here. Do you know where the lockers are?"
Scrub tech: "I'm not a damn doctor, you *****!"
Me: "Oh sorry. You over there, could you get me some coffee?"
Surgeon: "I AM the damn doctor, and you just bought yourself an extra night of call, newbie!"
Me: "eek."

Scrub nurse: "Hey you, get over here and put this patient under already."
Me: "I'm not an anesthesiologist."
Scrub nurse: "No, I was talking to him."
Scrub tech: "I'm not one either, you *****!"
Scrub nurse: "Don't make me slap you."
CRNA: "I'm here to do your patient."
Typical SDN poster: "Hey! You are just a NURSE! Only a REAL M.D. should be serving as anesthesiologist!"
Surgeon: "Well, I'm a D.O. Will you let me perform the bowel resection, or would you like to do it with your vast pre-med experience?"
SDN poster: "... I'll be quiet now."
Surgeon: "You! I'll be seeing you naked later!"
Me: "I'm your student, not your nurse. And I'm male."
Surgeon: "... damn your surgical mask."
Scrub tech: "So if you're the surgeon, who's in there doing the operation?"
Guy in OR: "Don't ask me what's going on! I'm another PATIENT!"


Chaos. Chaos, I tell you.
 
ForbiddenComma said:
As an aside, anyone who's worked in surgery knows how confusing THAT place is. Everyone wears the same damn pale-blue shade of scrubs. Throw in the surgical masks and caps into the equation and, well...

Me: "Excuse me doctor, I'm the new student here. Do you know where the lockers are?"
Scrub tech: "I'm not a damn doctor, you *****!"
Me: "Oh sorry. You over there, could you get me some coffee?"
Surgeon: "I AM the damn doctor, and you just bought yourself an extra night of call, newbie!"
Me: "eek."

Scrub nurse: "Hey you, get over here and put this patient under already."
Me: "I'm not an anesthesiologist."
Scrub nurse: "No, I was talking to him."
Scrub tech: "I'm not one either, you *****!"
Scrub nurse: "Don't make me slap you."
CRNA: "I'm here to do your patient."
Typical SDN poster: "Hey! You are just a NURSE! Only a REAL M.D. should be serving as anesthesiologist!"
Surgeon: "Well, I'm a D.O. Will you let me perform the bowel resection, or would you like to do it with your vast pre-med experience?"
SDN poster: "... I'll be quiet now."
Surgeon: "You! I'll be seeing you naked later!"
Me: "I'm your student, not your nurse. And I'm male."
Surgeon: "... damn your surgical mask."
Scrub tech: "So if you're the surgeon, who's in there doing the operation?"
Guy in OR: "Don't ask me what's going on! I'm another PATIENT!"


Chaos. Chaos, I tell you.

Awesome
Judging by your 2 posts, and your moniker, I'm guessing you were a liberal arts major in undergrad... english lit maybe?
Anyhoo, nice work.
 
And again, except for for the 3rd year medical student, NOBODY gets confused in the OR. Everyone knows the faces involved, and if you don't happen to know someone, it is obvious what category they belong to, just from what they do and how they act.
 
f_w said:
And again, except for for the 3rd year medical student, NOBODY gets confused in the OR. ....it is obvious what category they belong to, just from what they do and how they act.


Forbidden was making a joke, but since you brought it up, the patient can't possibly get confused in the OR, given everyone is in scrubs and a mask? The reason the 3rd year student gets confused is because he/she has never met these people before or spent any time in the OR. But that can't possibly apply to the patient, right? :rolleyes:

The "everyone knows who you are based onhow you act" argument keeps popping up around here. I'm not sure exactly what it means, but I can't possibly see a patient being able to derive everyone's position on team from something as nebulous as "how they act". Sure, if someone is jabbing a scalpel in your stomach, odds are they're the surgeon, but that doesn't help you much at that point. How does a nurse "act" compared to a PA, or a Doctor, or a Tech? The patient shouldn't have to be psychic to know who everyone is, nor should they have to ask everyone they see.

What's the drawback to wearing different uniforms? What's the problem? Who does it hurt?

No offense intended, but your argument wasn't completely convincing.

HamOn
 
Fobiddens skid referred to the situation of a medstudent stumbling into the OR. In the OR setting, the patient doesn't have to know anything, the system is set up in a way that he is handled like a dumb piece of cargo at the UPS sorting facility.

The reason hospitals don't bother to come up with a color coded system for the OR is that it is not necessary and would add cost to the system. It is expensive enough to provide sizes xs to 3XL freshly laundered on the rack every morning.

As to 'how they act':
- middle aged guy with loupes standing at the scrub sink: surgeon
- middle aged guy with marine corps tatoo pushing a piece of wheeled equipment: rotator tech


This is not the floors. On the floors, it could be helpful to have a uniform based system. In the OR, the roles are so clearly distributed and most of the times the team members know each other, there is just no need for this kind of game.
 
f_w said:
Fobiddens skid referred to the situation of a medstudent stumbling into the OR. In the OR setting, the patient doesn't have to know anything, the system is set up in a way that he is handled like a dumb piece of cargo at the UPS sorting facility.

...

As to 'how they act':
- middle aged guy with loupes standing at the scrub sink: surgeon
- middle aged guy with marine corps tatoo pushing a piece of wheeled equipment: rotator tech


This is not the floors. On the floors, it could be helpful to have a uniform based system. In the OR, the roles are so clearly distributed and most of the times the team members know each other, there is just no need for this kind of game.

So let me make sure I have this straight.

1) There's no problem in the OR because the patient doesn't need to know who's who? :eek: The patient is naked, surrounded by strangers in the OR, with the knowledge that they're about to be sedated, intubated, and split like a Thanksgiving turkey. I think the patient could use as much information as possible about the people in the room at that point. Remember, the context of the thread was that unique uniforms would make it easier for the patient to identify who's who. That's what we've been talking about for 100+ posts, right?

2) The stereotype thing is ridiculous. You're gonna embaress yourself someday if you make those kinds of assumptions.

3) I agree completely. On the floors it would be a good idea. Its a good idea anywhere you have a conscious patient, and the patient is conscious (and scared ****less) in the OR.

Good discussion, BTW.

HamOn
 
Have you ever been in an OR ?

And yes, the patient doesn't need to know a thing after someone put that bar-coded wristband on him in the pre-procedure area.
 
HamOnWholeWheat said:
So let me make sure I have this straight.

1) There's no problem in the OR because the patient doesn't need to know who's who? :eek: The patient is naked, surrounded by strangers in the OR, with the knowledge that they're about to be sedated, intubated, and split like a Thanksgiving turkey....
Exactly!
 
Btw. there ARE surgeons with marine corps tatoos who will occasionally push some equipment cart into the OR because the rotator is nowhere to be found ;)
 
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