Who should wear the white coat?

[toofache32]

You are joking, right? I mean, I'm not disparaging dental school, but I have a really hard time believing that dental school is "much harder" than medical school.

I don't want to hijack this post into this topic, but just ask anyone who's done both dental and medical school. It's not the difficulty of the material as much as the volume and the stress.

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[WestCoast]

I don't want to hijack this post into this topic, but just ask anyone who's done both dental and medical school. It's not the difficulty of the material as much as the volume and the stress.

I graduated from dental school and am doing second year med school. I gotta concur that its not nearly as bad as dental school, especially since the volume is much lighter than dental school. Finally have time to work out, watch tv and goof off for a change.

 

[THP]

I graduated from dental school and am doing second year med school. I gotta concur that its not nearly as bad as dental school, especially since the volume is much lighter than dental school. Finally have time to work out, watch tv and goof off for a change.

Could it be that there is a lot of overlap in the material and it is not as difficult learning it a second time? Also, maybe there is less of an adjustment to the load.

 

[blkkd]

Could it be that there is a lot of overlap in the material and it is not as difficult learning it a second time? Also, maybe there is less of an adjustment to the load.

Thats what i'm saying....

 

[toofache32]

Thats what i'm saying....

Nope, it has nothing to do with the material even though there is overlap. Whenever the subject gets brought up there are always a few arrogant med students who refuse to believe anyone else has it as tough as they do. I don't know why they have such an issue with this, because mommy is still proud. But I know that most med students have NO idea what dental school involves, even thought they think they do. I'm NOT trying to belittle the accomplishments of anyone here, but only presenting my experience as someone who has completed both medical and dental degrees. There is this pervasive assumption that med school is harder "because you study the whole body" while people don't realize dental students do the same but with a different approach. This topic comes up sometimes with other who have done both dental and medical, and we ALL agree.

I had between 8-11 courses at any given time in dental school and sat in 30-35 lectures hours per week (from 8 to 5 every day except Fridays they tried to let us go early). This is because not only do dental students take all the basic sciences, they also take a ton of dental classes/labs as well.And you HAVE to go to most of them because there are visual concepts that can't be understood by "reading the notes". Because when dental students start the 3rd year they have to already be somewhat competent in dozens of procedures which frankly require a lot of practice and developing hand-eye coordination. These course continue (at a slower pace) in the 3rd & 4th years while managing clinical work also. So it's not the difficulty of the material....it's just that dental students have more volume of material and less time to digest the material.

In contrast, I only took 2-3 course at a time in med school which only gives you about 17-20 lecture hours a week. You don't have to go to class at many places. We used the same Robbins Path book in med school that I used in dental school, but I honestly never learned it that well the first time and it was 3 years later. I took some of the 1st year courses on top of the 2nd year and I still had more free time than I did in dental school.

The stress level in the clinical years of med school is less than that in dental school because of the lack of any true responsibility. In the 3rd/4th year of med school, in a team of 10 people you're #10. All you have to do is show up every day and act interested and you'll get a good evaluation. Med school is mainly standing around and watching other people work, maybe you get to put in some sutures if you're lucky. Dental students are alone in the room with the patient laying flaps up to the orbit and doing the entire surgical procedure on their own, with the attending down the hall for questions. If you didn't show up one day they might notice but the world wouldn't stop spinning...patients would still get treated. In dental school if you don't show up then patients don't get treated because you're the only one assigned to them. After the clinic closed I would still sit in the lab until 10pm most night doing the lab work for my patients and trying to study at the same time. Many 4th year students don't even go in to their rotations some days, whereas the 4th year is the most stressful time for dental students because we have to do a certain number of procedures to graduate, which is complicated by some patients not showing up. If patients don't show up in dental school you want to cry because you might not graduate, whereas in med school you cry if they do show up because you can't go home early. I graduated in the top 10% of my dental school class, but I almost didn't graduate because of patients not showing up and other factors.

I could go on and on. It's not even comparable really. This is why dental school is much more stressful and time-consuming. Again, it's not the difficulty of the material, it's the extra volume and responsibilites that make it more difficult.

 

[lattimer13]

who cares about who wears what length coat?

 

[orientedtoself]

Man, I want my coat so long it follows behind me like a train. Bride of Medicine.

 

[tigress]

I'm just a premed, but I wanted to add my thoughts. I work in a neurology clinic. The nurses, nutritionist, respiratory therapist, etc. want to wear white coats because of something somebody else mentioned on this thread: pockets. Seriously, that's the one and only reason. Most people in the clinic don't wear coats, just most of the doctors and residents (and med students), but some of the support staff do. We just got a new nurse coordinator, and she wants a white coat because she needs to carry stuff around. We're actually in the process of ordering coats for all of the clinic staff. Today I was running around the clinic doing a lot of things and I really could have used those pockets! There is also another issue for me: when we have study patients in the hospital (phase I drug studies) and I'm wandering around, I look like I don't belong because all I have is an ID. I could wear scrubs and an ID, but for a variety of reasons I don't. A coat would make me less conspicuous.

I do understand where some of y'all are coming from, though. I think it's a bit ridiculous that the med students wear a different coat than everybody else.

Also, with regards to the patients' perception of who everybody is, I had a patient ask me today if I'm a doctor. I was just wearing regular nice clothes, but I went in to ask him to participate in a research study and to get blood and urine from him, and I was talking to him, and so he wondered. I guess partially because my roll isn't as clear (I'm not a nurse, not a doctor, etc.).

 

[SOUNDMAN]

A word about intros to patients: By and large, most paras don't state their position, just that they're working with the (insert specialty) team with Dr XXXXX. I've seen many more para's do this than saying "HI, I'm a para working with drXXXX."

As a PA myself, I can lend a little insight from my perspective. I know that no matter what, I always introduce myself as a Physician Assistant, and what Dr/Team I'm with. If you don't this is actually against the law. PA's have been nailed on this before. Even when I see return patients the next day/week etc. I always say "Hi Mr. Jones, do you remember me? I'm [insertnamehere], I am Dr/Team's PA"

Do they still call me Doctor occasionally. "Yes". Do I correct them. Not directly, but many times I'll say, well Dr. Blank and I will discuss and he'll talk to you or whatever. Many patients just feel that you are their "doc" even if you aren't actually a physician and will continue to call you that. They know you are a PA, but to them, you are their physician. The patients really aren't confused and in today's day and age, they know the PA vs. the Doc, if they've been introduced correctly.

 

[lvspro]

As a PA myself, I can lend a little insight from my perspective. I know that no matter what, I always introduce myself as a Physician Assistant, and what Dr/Team I'm with. If you don't this is actually against the law. PA's have been nailed on this before. Even when I see return patients the next day/week etc. I always say "Hi Mr. Jones, do you remember me? I'm [insertnamehere], I am Dr/Team's PA"

Do they still call me Doctor occasionally. "Yes". Do I correct them. Not directly, but many times I'll say, well Dr. Blank and I will discuss and he'll talk to you or whatever. Many patients just feel that you are their "doc" even if you aren't actually a physician and will continue to call you that. They know you are a PA, but to them, you are their physician. The patients really aren't confused and in today's day and age, they know the PA vs. the Doc, if they've been introduced correctly.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[hospitalistpac]

This post has made me realize how hard it is to explain myself to patients. I work with no specific physician and my "team" is medicine

I'm the hospitalist PA: What is a hospitalist? Did you say Hospice, am I dying? what is a PA? I that like the PCAs who take out the trash?
I'm a PA from the internal medicine group: seriously, pateints have no idea what internal medicine is
I'm a PA working with the internists: so you my intern?
I'm a PA working with your Dr: They invariably name their PCP and then I have to explain that their PCP isn't caring for them and sometimes thats a hassle

Its pretty funny actually. There is no easy way. The way I handle is, i change my shmeel all the time and for each individual pt. Most of the times, pts don't really listen anyway.

 

[tx oms]

Doctor can mean many things. Technically, anyone with a Ph.D. is a "doctor." So are veterinarians, dentists, MDs, DOs, etc. That's all I'm saying. Apology accepted.

It's appropriate for all of the above to wear a white coat, but not glorified nurses, PA's, dieticians, or ob/gyns.

 

[tx oms]

This post has made me realize how hard it is to explain myself to patients. I work with no specific physician and my "team" is medicine

I'm the hospitalist PA: What is a hospitalist? Did you say Hospice, am I dying? what is a PA? I that like the PCAs who take out the trash?
I'm a PA from the internal medicine group: seriously, pateints have no idea what internal medicine is
I'm a PA working with the internists: so you my intern?
I'm a PA working with your Dr: They invariably name their PCP and then I have to explain that their PCP isn't caring for them and sometimes thats a hassle

Its pretty funny actually. There is no easy way. The way I handle is, i change my shmeel all the time and for each individual pt. Most of the times, pts don't really listen anyway.

I've heard this from other PA's. It's not hard to explain who your are. It's only hard when you're purposefuly trying to be vague so the patient doesn't realize you're not a doctor. Here, I'll help you:

"Hi, I'm so-and-so, Dr. so-and-so's physician assistant, or PA. I am not a doctor but I do assist Dr. so-and-so. I'm hear to..."

 

[tx oms]

I'm just a premed, but I wanted to add my thoughts. I work in a neurology clinic. The nurses, nutritionist, respiratory therapist, etc. want to wear white coats because of something somebody else mentioned on this thread: pockets. Seriously, that's the one and only reason.

Lot's of clothes have pockets.

 

[hospitalistpac]

I've heard this from other PA's. It's not hard to explain who your are. It's only hard when you're purposefuly trying to be vague so the patient doesn't realize you're not a doctor. Here, I'll help you:

"Hi, I'm so-and-so, Dr. so-and-so's physician assistant, or PA. I am not a doctor but I do assist Dr. so-and-so. I'm hear to..."

thanks great, I think I made it clear I don't assist a particular Dr.
As a dentist, you have no business accusing PAs of trying to confuse people into thinking they are doctors. From you previous posts I see you're just a hater.

 

[toofache32]

thanks great, I think I made it clear I don't assist a particular Dr.
As a dentist, you have no business accusing PAs of trying to confuse people into thinking they are doctors. From you previous posts I see you're just a hater.

 

[oldManDO2009]

You might be right; certainly, it's a common complaint among patients that they can't tell who is who in the parade of people wandering in and out of their room and coming to ask them personal questions ("HAVE YOU PASSED ANY GAS YET, MRS. GROVEBOTTOM?"). And maybe something with colors and lengths of lab coats would help that.

But you might as well decide not to get upset about this. Everyone in the hospital who feels like it wears a long white coat, and that's never going to change. The only thing everyone agrees on is that med students have to wear the dorky short white coats. (But if it makes you feel better, plenty of residents wear them, too. Even some attendings.)

BTW, the solution to the "Who are the people in your hospital" problem above is that if you enter a patient's room or approach her to talk to her, you should introduce yourself, pretty much every time. Tell them what your level is, what your role is, and how you're connected to the attending. ("Hi, Mrs. Grovebottom, I'm Dr. Ears, one of the junior doctors on the surgery team. I work with Dr. Attending. HAVE YOU PASSED ANY GAS YET?") Everyone in the hospital should do this, no exceptions (well, maybe a code). You can't make the dietician in her white coat do it, but you can definitely do it yourself.

(FWIW, I hate the white coats, and don't wear one, pretty much ever.)

well said

 

[MollyMalone]

FWIW, here's my opinion on this issue, speaking as someone who has worked in a large variety of different patient care roles...

Every staff person in a hospital could wear a sandwich board proclaiming their role in 3 foot high letters and the majority of the patients still wouldn't know/care who was who or who does what or who had to go through what sort of crap to get to their position. Color coded scrubs don't work. Different lengths of coat don't work. Only having one sort of person wear a coat doesn't work. And it doesn't matter, anyhow. Once you've developed a relationship with your patient, he/she will respect you for who you are, not what you do. And if you haven't developed that sort of relationship, why do you even care?

Just my 2 cents, your milage may vary, etc.

 

[jetproppilot]

I just posted this in another thread, and decided that I'd like some input from the rest of the M3/4's.

I've always thought that docs should be the only ones wearing white coats. Some people may say they want the coat for protection, but they could get a blue coat for the same price. I think the practice of being too lenient on who wears the coat is confusing patients. I've seen it in action a few times, and recently with a PA where after a thoracentesis the pt looked directly at the PA and said thanks DOC The thing that makes it even worse is the fact that the PA didn't correct him.
Something else that annoys me is that I'm wearing a short coat, while everyone around me is wearing the long coat, be they pro's or not. I always thought that the white coat was a mark of distinction. Don't get me wrong, I don't need MD emblazoned across my forehead to validate myself, but I just thought it was a kinda privelage to wear a white coat. Oh well, maybe I'm just a little old-fashioned.
B4 this turns in to a doc vs para thread, I must say that my colleagues, be they PA's, nurses, or even secretaties are invaluable resources, I just think there is an element of confusion on behalf of the pt. I've always considered doing a study on this, and I'm willing to bet that at least a majority, if not a marginal one, of the patients who are interviewed by para's in long coats are under the impression that they are talking to a doc.
Anyhoo, lemme know what y'all think.

My white coat is somewhere around the third seat of my Yukon XL...and its been there for about 6 months.

 

[gregMD]

My white coat is somewhere around the third seat of my Yukon XL...and its been there for about 6 months.

doctors should just start wearing monkey suits.

It would suit all of you who think that only the chosen WE should be donned with a white coat.


You're all a bunch of pretentious, pompous fools, and are exactly the kind of people who shouldn't make it into medical school.

 

[tx oms]

thanks great, I think I made it clear I don't assist a particular Dr.
As a dentist, you have no business accusing PAs of trying to confuse people into thinking they are doctors. From you previous posts I see you're just a hater.

Yes, I am a dentist. I am also a senior med student about 6 months from graduation...that is ~a lifetime closer to MD/Physician/"Doctor" than you. BTW, the first D in DDS stands for "doctor", ass clown. I don't see a D in PA-C.

 

[lattimer13]

what about the butcher at your local supermarket? should he be allowed to wear a long white coat?

 

[deleted6669]

what about the butcher at your local supermarket? should he be allowed to wear a long white coat?

only if he is a dentist AND an md.....and he has to be a surgeon too, not one of those wimpy pill pushing drs

 

[NTM]

Nope, it has nothing to do with the material even though there is overlap. Whenever the subject gets brought up there are always a few arrogant med students who refuse to believe anyone else has it as tough as they do. I don't know why they have such an issue with this, because mommy is still proud. But I know that most med students have NO idea what dental school involves, even thought they think they do. I'm NOT trying to belittle the accomplishments of anyone here, but only presenting my experience as someone who has completed both medical and dental degrees. There is this pervasive assumption that med school is harder "because you study the whole body" while people don't realize dental students do the same but with a different approach. This topic comes up sometimes with other who have done both dental and medical, and we ALL agree.

I had between 8-11 courses at any given time in dental school and sat in 30-35 lectures hours per week (from 8 to 5 every day except Fridays they tried to let us go early). This is because not only do dental students take all the basic sciences, they also take a ton of dental classes/labs as well.And you HAVE to go to most of them because there are visual concepts that can't be understood by "reading the notes". Because when dental students start the 3rd year they have to already be somewhat competent in dozens of procedures which frankly require a lot of practice and developing hand-eye coordination. These course continue (at a slower pace) in the 3rd & 4th years while managing clinical work also. So it's not the difficulty of the material....it's just that dental students have more volume of material and less time to digest the material.

In contrast, I only took 2-3 course at a time in med school which only gives you about 17-20 lecture hours a week. You don't have to go to class at many places. We used the same Robbins Path book in med school that I used in dental school, but I honestly never learned it that well the first time and it was 3 years later. I took some of the 1st year courses on top of the 2nd year and I still had more free time than I did in dental school.

The stress level in the clinical years of med school is less than that in dental school because of the lack of any true responsibility. In the 3rd/4th year of med school, in a team of 10 people you're #10. All you have to do is show up every day and act interested and you'll get a good evaluation. Med school is mainly standing around and watching other people work, maybe you get to put in some sutures if you're lucky. Dental students are alone in the room with the patient laying flaps up to the orbit and doing the entire surgical procedure on their own, with the attending down the hall for questions. If you didn't show up one day they might notice but the world wouldn't stop spinning...patients would still get treated. In dental school if you don't show up then patients don't get treated because you're the only one assigned to them. After the clinic closed I would still sit in the lab until 10pm most night doing the lab work for my patients and trying to study at the same time. Many 4th year students don't even go in to their rotations some days, whereas the 4th year is the most stressful time for dental students because we have to do a certain number of procedures to graduate, which is complicated by some patients not showing up. If patients don't show up in dental school you want to cry because you might not graduate, whereas in med school you cry if they do show up because you can't go home early. I graduated in the top 10% of my dental school class, but I almost didn't graduate because of patients not showing up and other factors.

I could go on and on. It's not even comparable really. This is why dental school is much more stressful and time-consuming. Again, it's not the difficulty of the material, it's the extra volume and responsibilites that make it more difficult.

where did you go to med school?

 

[NTM]

It's appropriate for all of the above to wear a white coat, but not glorified nurses, PA's, dieticians, or ob/gyns.

last I heard, ob/gyns go to med school and complete a residency and all of that stuff too...

 

[NTM]

doctors should just start wearing monkey suits.

It would suit all of you who think that only the chosen WE should be donned with a white coat.


You're all a bunch of pretentious, pompous fools, and are exactly the kind of people who shouldn't make it into medical school.

I agree totally, of all of the things to debate, you all are debating who gets to wear a lab coat??? Are you all that shallow or is it that all of you suffer from major insecurities and inadequacies? Been called nerd too many times in college? Dont know what it feels like to be kissed other than by your mom? I could go on and on. The truth is I sure hope none of you make it to med school with this attitude for the sake of your future patients. For those who have made it in somehow, I hope you find reason to change your ways and perspective. Grow up you freaking shallow, power hungry dorks.

 

[deleted6669]

"Grow up you freaking shallow, power hungry dorks."

WELL SAID-LOVE IT!

 

[HamOnWholeWheat]

"Grow up you freaking shallow, power hungry dorks."

WELL SAID-LOVE IT!

HamOn: "I think only prison guards should be allowed to wear a uniform that says 'prison guard' on it. Its less confusing that way to the inmates."

Captain Knee-jerk Reaction: "Grow up you power-hungry dork!"

HamOn: (* scratches head and wonders if emed and company bothered to read the thread *)

 

[deleted6669]

"HamOn: "I think only prison guards should be allowed to wear a uniform that says 'prison guard' on it. Its less confusing that way to the inmates.""

YES, I READ THE WHOLE THREAD. on pg 4 you can see the long post I wrote about how I get called doc no matter what I wear. it's not the labcoat, it's the attitude/age/professionalism/role.
your comparison is a little off. we are not talking about pa's wearing nametags that say " I am a doctor"(prison guard) we are talking about pa's,etc being able to wear labcoats which is like the prison guards wearing undershirts...ONLY PRISON GUARDS CAN WEAR UNDERSHIRTS!

 

[toofache32]

where did you go to med school?

University of Texas Southwestern

 

[HamOnWholeWheat]

"on pg 4 you can see the long post I wrote about how I get called doc no matter what I wear. it's not the labcoat, it's the attitude/age/professionalism/role."

The fact that you even bring up professionalism and all that is why I wondered if you read the thread. The original question had nothing to do with differences in professionalism between Doctors/Nurses/PA's/Tech's. It was about making everyone's position on the team abundantly clear to the patients. Some of the responses I've read have kneejerked out the classic "why do you care if someone else wear's the whitecoat you pretentious jerk" reaction.

What it sounds like you're saying in your above quote is that all of your patients know immediately that you're a doctor based on your intangible qualities of attitude/professionalism/age/role (that last one is circular BTW.. "they know my role because they know my role")?

So a PA/Nurse can't have the same level of Professionalism/attitude/age? I know you're not saying that, I'm just making a point that its an unreasonable assumption to think that patients can somehow "sense" the professionalism you're emanating, and that that professionalism means you're a Doctor and not a Nurse.

Look, I don't care if Doctors are required to wear a sign on their head that says "arrogant jackass", as long as its distinct from what the Hospital CEO, Receptionists, lab techs, PA's, Nurses wear. It just makes the team function better, in my opinion, if all players are clearly defined to the uninitiated (i.e. the Patients). If you don't think the team will function better with clearly defined uniforms, fine. You might be right. But implying someone is a jerk for talking about it is pretty shortsighted, and DEFINITELY not the intended context of the thread. That's why I wondered if you had read it.

HamOn

 

[gregMD]

The fact that you even bring up professionalism and all that is why I wondered if you read the thread. The original question had nothing to do with differences in professionalism between Doctors/Nurses/PA's/Tech's. It was about making everyone's position on the team abundantly clear to the patients. Some of the responses I've read have kneejerked out the classic "why do you care if someone else wear's the whitecoat you pretentious jerk" reaction.

What it sounds like you're saying in your above quote is that all of your patients know immediately that you're a doctor based on your intangible qualities of attitude/professionalism/age/role (that last one is circular BTW.. "they know my role because they know my role")?

So a PA/Nurse can't have the same level of Professionalism/attitude/age? I know you're not saying that, I'm just making a point that its an unreasonable assumption to think that patients can somehow "sense" the professionalism you're emanating, and that that professionalism means you're a Doctor and not a Nurse.

Look, I don't care if Doctors are required to wear a sign on their head that says "arrogant jackass", as long as its distinct from what the Hospital CEO, Receptionists, lab techs, PA's, Nurses wear. It just makes the team function better, in my opinion, if all players are clearly defined to the uninitiated (i.e. the Patients). If you don't think the team will function better with clearly defined uniforms, fine. You might be right. But implying someone is a jerk for talking about it is pretty shortsighted, and DEFINITELY not the intended context of the thread. That's why I wondered if you had read it.

HamOn

Although it may have not been the intended direction the original poster had wanted to go - this thread has brought out the ego and attitude I despise most in medical students and colleagues (the one where you think you're better than EVERYBODY else out there). What's worse is you get several people who chime in with the ego stroking and coddling that is so typical of those who want to be distinguished and placed on a throne above their peers and, in this case, support staff. Funnily enough, you've got people slandering other medical professionals (like dentists, optometrists, psychologists, veterinarians) - id say they worked just as hard as we did to get their degrees... when did our profession become so arrogant?

As far as I'm concerned, nurses etc. are providing medical care to patients, and if they want to wear white coats than they are as entitled to wear one as I am. SO WHAT if a patient walks up to a PA and says "Excuse me Dr." Its not like a PA is going up to patients and saying "I'll be performing your penectomy today Mr. Smith," and its not like by wearing a white coat the PA is taking home your hard earned medical pay cheque....

I've never introduced myself as Dr, nor do I wear a white coat... But somehow (must be telepathy) patients always know that I'm a physician.

Finally, when I was in medical school, the last thing I was worried about was who was wearing what and what role they were filling. I sure hope none of you apply to my service for a residency because I surely don't want attitudes like this on my team.

 

[HamOnWholeWheat]

Although it may have not been the intended direction the original poster had wanted to go - this thread has brought out the ego and attitude I despise most in medical students and colleagues (the one where you think you're better than EVERYBODY else out there). What's worse is you get several people who chime in with the ego stroking and coddling that is so typical of those who want to be distinguished and placed on a throne above their peers and, in this case, support staff. Funnily enough, you've got people slandering other medical professionals (like dentists, optometrists, psychologists, veterinarians) - id say they worked just as hard as we did to get their degrees... when did our profession become so arrogant?

As far as I'm concerned, nurses etc. are providing medical care to patients, and if they want to wear white coats than they are as entitled to wear one as I am. SO WHAT if a patient walks up to a PA and says "Excuse me Dr." Its not like a PA is going up to patients and saying "I'll be performing your penectomy today Mr. Smith," and its not like by wearing a white coat the PA is taking home your hard earned medical pay cheque....

I've never introduced myself as Dr, nor do I wear a white coat... But somehow (must be telepathy) patients always know that I'm a physician.

Finally, when I was in medical school, the last thing I was worried about was who was wearing what and what role they were filling. I sure hope none of you apply to my service for a residency because I surely don't want attitudes like this on my team.

As a medical student, the patients (and a lot of the non-medical staff) almost ALWAYS assumed I was a doctor. Sometimes when I explained to the patient that I wasn't a doctor, they looked at me like I had been trying to pull one over on them, as though I had been pretending to be a Doctor. So eventually I started introducing myself as a medical student, only to have to explain exactly what that was to nearly every patient. Rather than go through all that bull**** with every patient, I'd gladly wear a different coat, or no coat, or a sign that said "Not a Doctor" across my forehead. The patient deserves to know who the hell he/she is explaining the details of his/her sex life to, and shouldn't have to be expected to specifically ask everyone who comes by just because they all look the same. Its a simple problem with a simple solution, and arrogance has nothing to do with it.

People are always going to randomly chime in with bull****, trying to derail the discussion. If you don't like how some people feel entitled, ignore them, and get back to talking about the problem (if you think there is one). But you have to at least try to give people the benefit of the doubt when they express an opinion about these things.

HamOn

 

[lvspro]

As a medical student, the patients (and a lot of the non-medical staff) almost ALWAYS assumed I was a doctor. Sometimes when I explained to the patient that I wasn't a doctor, they looked at me like I had been trying to pull one over on them, as though I had been pretending to be a Doctor. So eventually I started introducing myself as a medical student, only to have to explain exactly what that was to nearly every patient. Rather than go through all that bull**** with every patient, I'd gladly wear a different coat, or no coat, or a sign that said "Not a Doctor" across my forehead. The patient deserves to know who the hell he/she is explaining the details of his/her sex life to, and shouldn't have to be expected to specifically ask everyone who comes by just because they all look the same. Its a simple problem with a simple solution, and arrogance has nothing to do with it.

People are always going to randomly chime in with bull****, trying to derail the discussion. If you don't like how some people feel entitled, ignore them, and get back to talking about the problem (if you think there is one). But you have to at least try to give people the benefit of the doubt when they express an opinion about these things.

HamOn

yup
I gave up trying to explain the point of this thread. It seems that no matter how much you say "r patients confused" it is somehow interpreted as "only doctors deserve the coat b/c WE are omnipotent." I wonder how some of these cookies did on the MCAT verbal section.

 

[Telemachus]

I just posted this in another thread, and decided that I'd like some input from the rest of the M3/4's.

I've always thought that docs should be the only ones wearing white coats. Some people may say they want the coat for protection, but they could get a blue coat for the same price. I think the practice of being too lenient on who wears the coat is confusing patients. I've seen it in action a few times, and recently with a PA where after a thoracentesis the pt looked directly at the PA and said thanks DOC The thing that makes it even worse is the fact that the PA didn't correct him.
Something else that annoys me is that I'm wearing a short coat, while everyone around me is wearing the long coat, be they pro's or not. I always thought that the white coat was a mark of distinction. Don't get me wrong, I don't need MD emblazoned across my forehead to validate myself, but I just thought it was a kinda privelage to wear a white coat. Oh well, maybe I'm just a little old-fashioned.
B4 this turns in to a doc vs para thread, I must say that my colleagues, be they PA's, nurses, or even secretaties are invaluable resources, I just think there is an element of confusion on behalf of the pt. I've always considered doing a study on this, and I'm willing to bet that at least a majority, if not a marginal one, of the patients who are interviewed by para's in long coats are under the impression that they are talking to a doc.
Anyhoo, lemme know what y'all think.

Elitist.

This post reads like : "I need to be special. I need to be special. No wait, I mean I'm not seeking validation through an arbitrary title and/or wardrobe. Nope, no, not at all, not me."

We should all get rid of white coats period. Everyone should wear scrubs. And all the scrubs should be the same color.

This is like the antithesis of the Kramer not wearing the AIDS ribbon episode.

 

[21JumpStreet]

Well since this thread is getting ridiculous, I will add to the craziness. I was doing Karate the other night and I just thought of this: Every hospital worker MUST wear a white coat just like everyone wears a gi in Karate class. Everyone will wear a color belt corresponding to their rank. Hmm. Maybe doctors and residents wear a black belt because they have the most medical knowledge. Medical students like myself will wear a brown belt. Maybe pre-meds, other techs should wear color belts. Just kidding.

 

[lvspro]

Elitist.

This post reads like : "I need to be special. I need to be special. No wait, I mean I'm not seeking validation through an arbitrary title and/or wardrobe. Nope, no, not at all, not me."

We should all get rid of white coats period. Everyone should wear scrubs. And all the scrubs should be the same color.

This is like the antithesis of the Kramer not wearing the AIDS ribbon episode.

3

 

[kenheather]

I am required to wear a white consultation length coat when I do my clinical rotations so I have no choice on the length or color. Of course I'm in nursing and not med school so maybe it would be a good idea to put a big N on the front of my scrubs so that no one could possibly mistake m for a Doctor. Better yet, why not brand all of the allied health professionals so that no one could ever ever be mistaken for a doctor. What happens when I get my phd in nursing? Can I wear the coat then?

 

[HamOnWholeWheat]

I am required to wear a white consultation length coat when I do my clinical rotations so I have no choice on the length or color. Of course I'm in nursing and not med school so maybe it would be a good idea to put a big N on the front of my scrubs so that no one could possibly mistake m for a Doctor. Better yet, why not brand all of the allied health professionals so that no one could ever ever be mistaken for a doctor. What happens when I get my phd in nursing? Can I wear the coat then?

 

[odrade1]

One thing I see a fair amount of on SDN is people misunderstanding others' use & intentions behind subjects where prestige, titles, etc come up. Often what I read as someone wanting recognition for their (superior) level of education is taken by other posters to be equivalent to that person maintaining that they are 'better' than others without the MD/PhD degree. People inevitibly get rather righteous about this, probably because they (correctly) believe that no-one is "better" than anyone else, so the arrogant attitude must be corrupt and unjustified. As I read over this thread, it occurred to me that people seem to be intuiting 2 different meanings of the term "better than" when it comes to comparing the relative merits or worth of 2 individuals.
At this time I would like to draw your attention to the following distinction:
1) There is a sense of 'better' that is used on this thread that is tied up with the idea that no person is better than or worth more than another person. This is usually used to drive home the point that the people who want docs to wear longer coats than non-docs must be @ssholes.
2) There is a sense of 'better' that does not include an evaluation of someones worth as a human being. It is commonly (though not universally) thought that humans have equivalent worth, qua human. There is a sense in which I am not better or worth more than a murderer on death row. There is also a sense in which I am better than other people. I have far more education than most people. My education is broader than most people. I learn faster than most people. I am healthier than many people. I am better looking than many people. I have more money than many people, etc... (I am using these expressions as examples, not making actual claims about my appearance or financial status). There is a sense in which I am better than a janitor (we come from different social classes) and there is a sense that I am the janitor's peer, as a fellow human.

The fact of the matter is that no matter what you do, SOME patients will still be confused about who is doing what at the hospital. Since nothing we can do will eliminate all the confusion, what can we do to ameliorate some of the confusion? Badges help. Standardized Uniforms help, and introducing yourself properly helps.

I want to wear a long coat. If I had my way, non-docs wouldn't wear the coat. Part of the reason for this is that I feel that I have worked harder to achieve a higher status than other people working at the hospital. The coat can be a symbol of my merits from the second sense of 'better' mentioned above, and I like that. Is an olympic athelete an @sshole for wearing her gold medal? Is she an @sshole if she gets angry at the thought of all those she competed with (who didn't win) getting to wear gold medals too? The truth is that long coats have been a historical symbol of status, rank, and education level, and those that value the work put into those ends may feel frustrated or angry when a symbol that they value is de-valued. Some religious people feel upset when their religious symbols are put on t-shirts & race-cars, etc, or are worn as accessories by people who do not share their beliefs. I think those feelings are valid too.

Someone who wants a long coat because they feel it makes them better as a human than others is an @dingus, and probably isn't where they need to be as a person, to minister to others as a physician. However, someone who wants a long coat because they feel it is a symbol of their hard work is not wrong for wanting to wear the coat. Also, because they value the symbolic meaning of the coat, they are entitled to feel frustrated when others who have not achieved the same status adopt what is a historical symbol of status in that work environment. Nurses, PAs, etc. have worked to get where they are, and they play critical roles in providing care to our patients, but but they are not the educational or social-status equivalents of physicians or research professors. Wanting to wear a lab coat is not about denying the valuable work that Nurses, PAs, etc do. It is about affirming the status & authority of the one in the lab coat. A nurse's uniform & her school pin distinguish her from a janitor in stained coveralls. Is a nurse wrong for not wanting to be mistaken for a homeless person, a janitor, or a nurse's assistant? Hell no.
Formalizing rules for uniforms at hospitals (including the no MD/PhD, no long coat rule) WOULD decrease confusion among patients. But this is not necessarily a sufficient reason for doing so. I think it is acceptable to want to maintain the historic meaning of the lab coat, and it is acceptable to want to deny the long coat to people who haven't achieved the status associated with the coat.

 

[lvspro]

One thing I see a fair amount of on SDN is people misunderstanding others' use & intentions behind subjects where prestige, titles, etc come up. Often what I read as someone wanting recognition for their (superior) level of education is taken by other posters to be equivalent to that person maintaining that they are 'better' than others without the MD/PhD degree. People inevitibly get rather righteous about this, probably because they (correctly) believe that no-one is "better" than anyone else, so the arrogant attitude must be corrupt and unjustified. As I read over this thread, it occurred to me that people seem to be intuiting 2 different meanings of the term "better than" when it comes to comparing the relative merits or worth of 2 individuals.
At this time I would like to draw your attention to the following distinction:
1) There is a sense of 'better' that is used on this thread that is tied up with the idea that no person is better than or worth more than another person. This is usually used to drive home the point that the people who want docs to wear longer coats than non-docs must be @ssholes.
2) There is a sense of 'better' that does not include an evaluation of someones worth as a human being. It is commonly (though not universally) thought that humans have equivalent worth, qua human. There is a sense in which I am not better or worth more than a murderer on death row. There is also a sense in which I am better than other people. I have far more education than most people. My education is broader than most people. I learn faster than most people. I am healthier than many people. I am better looking than many people. I have more money than many people, etc... (I am using these expressions as examples, not making actual claims about my appearance or financial status). There is a sense in which I am better than a janitor (we come from different social classes) and there is a sense that I am the janitor's peer, as a fellow human.

The fact of the matter is that no matter what you do, SOME patients will still be confused about who is doing what at the hospital. Since nothing we can do will eliminate all the confusion, what can we do to ameliorate some of the confusion? Badges help. Standardized Uniforms help, and introducing yourself properly helps.

I want to wear a long coat. If I had my way, non-docs wouldn't wear the coat. Part of the reason for this is that I feel that I have worked harder to achieve a higher status than other people working at the hospital. The coat can be a symbol of my merits from the second sense of 'better' mentioned above, and I like that. Is an olympic athelete an @sshole for wearing her gold medal? Is she an @sshole if she gets angry at the thought of all those she competed with (who didn't win) getting to wear gold medals too? The truth is that long coats have been a historical symbol of status, rank, and education level, and those that value the work put into those ends may feel frustrated or angry when a symbol that they value is de-valued. Some religious people feel upset when their religious symbols are put on t-shirts & race-cars, etc, or are worn as accessories by people who do not share their beliefs. I think those feelings are valid too.

Someone who wants a long coat because they feel it makes them better as a human than others is an @dingus, and probably isn't where they need to be as a person, to minister to others as a physician. However, someone who wants a long coat because they feel it is a symbol of their hard work is not wrong for wanting to wear the coat. Also, because they value the symbolic meaning of the coat, they are entitled to feel frustrated when others who have not achieved the same status adopt what is a historical symbol of status in that work environment. Nurses, PAs, etc. have worked to get where they are, and they play critical roles in providing care to our patients, but but they are not the educational or social-status equivalents of physicians or research professors. Wanting to wear a lab coat is not about denying the valuable work that Nurses, PAs, etc do. It is about affirming the status & authority of the one in the lab coat. A nurse's uniform & her school pin distinguish her from a janitor in stained coveralls. Is a nurse wrong for not wanting to be mistaken for a homeless person, a janitor, or a nurse's assistant? Hell no.
Formalizing rules for uniforms at hospitals (including the no MD/PhD, no long coat rule) WOULD decrease confusion among patients. But this is not necessarily a sufficient reason for doing so. I think it is acceptable to want to maintain the historic meaning of the lab coat, and it is acceptable to want to deny the long coat to people who haven't achieved the status associated with the coat.

12-13

This seems to be a well thought out answer to the "who deserves" the white coat question. I say this b/c it does a pretty good job of relating "deservingness" to "minimizing confusion" through the idea of recognition. If people recognize white coats as MD/DO etc... then there is no confusion who the "doctor" is. So, it seems you've done a pretty good job of addressing the link between the original post (confusion), and the tangential topic many are debating (deservingness). Nice work.

 

[hospitalistpac]

, .Nurses, PAs, etc. have worked to get where they are, and they play critical roles in providing care to our patients, but but they are not the educational or social-status equivalents of physicians or research professors. Wanting to wear a lab coat is not about denying the valuable work that Nurses, PAs, etc do.

To Mr. 2010
1) there is no "our" patients for you yet, you are not even doing rotations yet
I have MY patients, you will one day have YOURS
2) you have no idea what real PAs do yet, not because you are uneducated or ignorant, you just aren't submersed in real hospital medicine yet, so don't act like you know how "valuable" we are -gag
It's not even clear to me if you know the difference between nurse and PAs
3)you will be sorely bitter when you do enter rotations because casemanagers, social workers, nurse managers, nurse supervisers, occaionally a phlebotomist or tech but that is rare, resp thearpists, etc, all wear that coat that you are coveting
4) no hard feelings, just making a few points

 

[gregMD]

One thing I see a fair amount of on SDN is people misunderstanding others' use & intentions behind subjects where prestige, titles, etc come up. Often what I read as someone wanting recognition for their (superior) level of education is taken by other posters to be equivalent to that person maintaining that they are 'better' than others without the MD/PhD degree. People inevitibly get rather righteous about this, probably because they (correctly) believe that no-one is "better" than anyone else, so the arrogant attitude must be corrupt and unjustified. As I read over this thread, it occurred to me that people seem to be intuiting 2 different meanings of the term "better than" when it comes to comparing the relative merits or worth of 2 individuals.
At this time I would like to draw your attention to the following distinction:
1) There is a sense of 'better' that is used on this thread that is tied up with the idea that no person is better than or worth more than another person. This is usually used to drive home the point that the people who want docs to wear longer coats than non-docs must be @ssholes.
2) There is a sense of 'better' that does not include an evaluation of someones worth as a human being. It is commonly (though not universally) thought that humans have equivalent worth, qua human. There is a sense in which I am not better or worth more than a murderer on death row. There is also a sense in which I am better than other people. I have far more education than most people. My education is broader than most people. I learn faster than most people. I am healthier than many people. I am better looking than many people. I have more money than many people, etc... (I am using these expressions as examples, not making actual claims about my appearance or financial status). There is a sense in which I am better than a janitor (we come from different social classes) and there is a sense that I am the janitor's peer, as a fellow human.

The fact of the matter is that no matter what you do, SOME patients will still be confused about who is doing what at the hospital. Since nothing we can do will eliminate all the confusion, what can we do to ameliorate some of the confusion? Badges help. Standardized Uniforms help, and introducing yourself properly helps.

I want to wear a long coat. If I had my way, non-docs wouldn't wear the coat. Part of the reason for this is that I feel that I have worked harder to achieve a higher status than other people working at the hospital. The coat can be a symbol of my merits from the second sense of 'better' mentioned above, and I like that. Is an olympic athelete an @sshole for wearing her gold medal? Is she an @sshole if she gets angry at the thought of all those she competed with (who didn't win) getting to wear gold medals too? The truth is that long coats have been a historical symbol of status, rank, and education level, and those that value the work put into those ends may feel frustrated or angry when a symbol that they value is de-valued. Some religious people feel upset when their religious symbols are put on t-shirts & race-cars, etc, or are worn as accessories by people who do not share their beliefs. I think those feelings are valid too.

Someone who wants a long coat because they feel it makes them better as a human than others is an @dingus, and probably isn't where they need to be as a person, to minister to others as a physician. However, someone who wants a long coat because they feel it is a symbol of their hard work is not wrong for wanting to wear the coat. Also, because they value the symbolic meaning of the coat, they are entitled to feel frustrated when others who have not achieved the same status adopt what is a historical symbol of status in that work environment. Nurses, PAs, etc. have worked to get where they are, and they play critical roles in providing care to our patients, but but they are not the educational or social-status equivalents of physicians or research professors. Wanting to wear a lab coat is not about denying the valuable work that Nurses, PAs, etc do. It is about affirming the status & authority of the one in the lab coat. A nurse's uniform & her school pin distinguish her from a janitor in stained coveralls. Is a nurse wrong for not wanting to be mistaken for a homeless person, a janitor, or a nurse's assistant? Hell no.
Formalizing rules for uniforms at hospitals (including the no MD/PhD, no long coat rule) WOULD decrease confusion among patients. But this is not necessarily a sufficient reason for doing so. I think it is acceptable to want to maintain the historic meaning of the lab coat, and it is acceptable to want to deny the long coat to people who haven't achieved the status associated with the coat.

How do people like you get into medical school? OUR patients? A patient is just as much a nurses patient as it is mine - in fact, in a given day, i'd say that the nurses have more contact with a given patient than I do, as i have hundreds to see, and they are the ones administering meds, carrying out orders etc. So for you to sit there and speak from a behind a text book, having never actually seen a patient, absolutely typifies ignorance.

The fact that we got into medical school and got our degrees does not confer ANY type of educational superiority over any of the support staff. If there is a whole generation of medical students that think like you than we are doomed.

I hope on your first rotation you speak your mind and watch the nurses take you apart - limb from limb.... no wait - that wont happen because you will be wearing your white coat shield of honor...........

 

[Telemachus]

One thing I see a fair amount of on SDN is people misunderstanding others' use & intentions behind subjects where prestige, titles, etc come up. Often what I read as someone wanting recognition for their (superior) level of education is taken by other posters to be equivalent to that person maintaining that they are 'better' than others without the MD/PhD degree. People inevitibly get rather righteous about this, probably because they (correctly) believe that no-one is "better" than anyone else, so the arrogant attitude must be corrupt and unjustified. As I read over this thread, it occurred to me that people seem to be intuiting 2 different meanings of the term "better than" when it comes to comparing the relative merits or worth of 2 individuals.
At this time I would like to draw your attention to the following distinction:
1) There is a sense of 'better' that is used on this thread that is tied up with the idea that no person is better than or worth more than another person. This is usually used to drive home the point that the people who want docs to wear longer coats than non-docs must be @ssholes.
2) There is a sense of 'better' that does not include an evaluation of someones worth as a human being. It is commonly (though not universally) thought that humans have equivalent worth, qua human. There is a sense in which I am not better or worth more than a murderer on death row. There is also a sense in which I am better than other people. I have far more education than most people. My education is broader than most people. I learn faster than most people. I am healthier than many people. I am better looking than many people. I have more money than many people, etc... (I am using these expressions as examples, not making actual claims about my appearance or financial status). There is a sense in which I am better than a janitor (we come from different social classes) and there is a sense that I am the janitor's peer, as a fellow human.

The fact of the matter is that no matter what you do, SOME patients will still be confused about who is doing what at the hospital. Since nothing we can do will eliminate all the confusion, what can we do to ameliorate some of the confusion? Badges help. Standardized Uniforms help, and introducing yourself properly helps.

I want to wear a long coat. If I had my way, non-docs wouldn't wear the coat. Part of the reason for this is that I feel that I have worked harder to achieve a higher status than other people working at the hospital. The coat can be a symbol of my merits from the second sense of 'better' mentioned above, and I like that. Is an olympic athelete an @sshole for wearing her gold medal? Is she an @sshole if she gets angry at the thought of all those she competed with (who didn't win) getting to wear gold medals too? The truth is that long coats have been a historical symbol of status, rank, and education level, and those that value the work put into those ends may feel frustrated or angry when a symbol that they value is de-valued. Some religious people feel upset when their religious symbols are put on t-shirts & race-cars, etc, or are worn as accessories by people who do not share their beliefs. I think those feelings are valid too.

Someone who wants a long coat because they feel it makes them better as a human than others is an @dingus, and probably isn't where they need to be as a person, to minister to others as a physician. However, someone who wants a long coat because they feel it is a symbol of their hard work is not wrong for wanting to wear the coat. Also, because they value the symbolic meaning of the coat, they are entitled to feel frustrated when others who have not achieved the same status adopt what is a historical symbol of status in that work environment. Nurses, PAs, etc. have worked to get where they are, and they play critical roles in providing care to our patients, but but they are not the educational or social-status equivalents of physicians or research professors. Wanting to wear a lab coat is not about denying the valuable work that Nurses, PAs, etc do. It is about affirming the status & authority of the one in the lab coat. A nurse's uniform & her school pin distinguish her from a janitor in stained coveralls. Is a nurse wrong for not wanting to be mistaken for a homeless person, a janitor, or a nurse's assistant? Hell no.
Formalizing rules for uniforms at hospitals (including the no MD/PhD, no long coat rule) WOULD decrease confusion among patients. But this is not necessarily a sufficient reason for doing so. I think it is acceptable to want to maintain the historic meaning of the lab coat, and it is acceptable to want to deny the long coat to people who haven't achieved the status associated with the coat.

Actually, the historical role of the white coat is to keep one's clothes clean -- all the more reason why we should do away with them entirely and have everyone wear scrubs -- all the same color, provided only by the hospital, never to be worn out of the hospital, to be changed into and out of as one arrives and leaves, immediately laundered by the custodial staff, etc.

As for this "I've worked harder to achieve more" bulls--t, I hate to break it to you but I can say without a doubt that I work, or have worked, a lot less hard than many, many other people who work in the hospital. I just happen to have been born into a scenario (i.e. middle class American as opposed to impovershed Asian/African/Central American) where my moderate amount of work was able to take advantage of opportunities not available to so many others who have found their way into our hospitals to work.

You are a f--king blowhard. The kind that makes all of us look bad by association. You are the reason why some of us don't like to be called "doctor" by our patients.

 

[omfsres]

last I heard, ob/gyns go to med school and complete a residency and all of that stuff too...

Yes, but we don't like them.

 

[omfsres]

To Mr. 2010
I have MY patients, you will one day have YOURS

You have patients in the same way a medical student has patients. You get to do stuff while being supervised by the person who really "has" the patient.

 

[f_w]

Why don't we go to the colour scheme used on aircraft carriers. There are the 'red shirts' 'blue shirts' and so on, each group with a defined role around the plane (ordinance, fuel, fire-protection).

> how about if physicians have their names on the back of their
> coats...like athletes do. Like "Dr. Jojo"....or "PA Lancester"...

'Back home' we actually had that.
Not in the hospital, but in EMS. On the back of the docs jacket it said 'EMS physician lastname', on the EMTs jacket it said 'EMT lastname'. That way there was no question as to who is in charge (e.g. for police or other teams arriving to a scene later on).

This discussion is very entertaining. A couple people here are either short in stature or otherwise biologically disadvantaged.

(btw. it is fairly easy to discern the PA's from the residents in a hospital setting, at least the females. They work only 40hours and have a decent income, as a result they get their hair done or wear make-up. Also, they lack the dark rings around their eyes, a common fashion accessory for residents).

 

[sdnetrocks]

The fact that we got into medical school and got our degrees does not confer ANY type of educational superiority over any of the support staff.

What the hell kind of sense does that make? OF COURSE it confers educational superiority. Come on, folks: nothing < high school diploma < associates < bachelors < masters < doctorate/professional.

In fact, this could potentially be extended to the residency programs, where a neurosurgeon or EP cardiologist, etc. "educationally outranks" (whatever the hell that means) a general med or peds doc.

Just because I will have an MD will not make me "better" than anyone else, but it WILL make me MORE EDUCATED than most. And to suggest otherwise, as well as crazy schemes where everyone dresses the same, is some terribly misguided commie-style thinking.

 

[f_w]

In the OR, everybody wears the same scrubs and often without ID. Still, nobody will confuse 'jeb' the patient care tech with 'dr Q' the surgeon (the 'most educated' staff members are often the most humble, they have no reason to stand out, their patients, staff, anyone knows who they are).

 

[toofache32]

I bet I can pee farther than the rest of you,