Where are all the caribean failure stories?

[PikminOC]

Carina Crookston, a 36-year-old aspiring oncologist and mother of three from Minnesota, had sticker shock just from the cost of living in St. Maarten. Her family’s first air-conditioning bill was $700 and had to be paid at the utility office in cash. A gallon of milk cost about $7, more than twice the price back home...
Carina Crookston, a 36-year-old aspiring oncologist and mother of three from Minnesota, had sticker shock just from the cost of living in St. Maarten. Her family’s first air-conditioning bill was $700 and had to be paid at the utility office in cash. A gallon of milk cost about $7, more than twice the price back home.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...medical-school-rejects-as-taxpayers-fund-debt

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[mgdsh]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...medical-school-rejects-as-taxpayers-fund-debt

DeVry Lures Medical School Rejects as Taxpayers Fund Debt

From my understanding, you can't default on a student loan. I had to have a guarantor on my loan when I applied.

 

[PikminOC]

According to the NRMP, last year 971 graduates of U.S. medical schools were shut out, accounting for 5.9% of U.S. grads. Graduates of international medical schools fared even worse - less than 50% of them obtained a residency.
That means more than 7,000 doctors were left with a diploma that said “M.D.” but no guarantee they would be able to use it.

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/16/why-your-waiter-has-an-m-d/

 

[PikminOC]

From my understanding, you can't default on a student loan. I had to have a guarantor on my loan when I applied.

Did you read the article?

 

[MrGrrrMonster]

I honestly have no idea how you can fail out of medical school once you get in

Not sure if this is crossing the line but I feel like this is as close to the, "pot calling the kettle black" as it gets. Sure, you were able to be a fantastic success story out of the caribbean which is in itself quite a feat, however many individuals are "sub-par" ( note the quotes) by standard allopathic schools standards. And the attrition rate appears to be on the order of 1:4. I would almost argue that a "failure of medical school" was incurred prior to even beginning school, as I doubt the many caribbean students "chose" to go to such a balmy locale purely on the merits of these institutions academic standards...

 

[mgdsh]

Did you read the article?

I did. I must have missed where they said the US taxpayers are clearly on the hook for the debt.

 

[mgdsh]

Not sure if this is crossing the line but I feel like this is as close to the, "pot calling the kettle black" as it gets. Sure, you were able to be a fantastic success story out of the caribbean which is in itself quite a feat, however many individuals are "sub-par" ( note the quotes) by standard allopathic schools standards. And the attrition rate appears to be on the order of 1:4. I would almost argue that a "failure of medical school" was incurred prior to even beginning school, as I doubt the many caribbean students "chose" to go to such a balmy locale purely on the merits of these institutions academic standards...

I did. I chose to go to Ross. I applied to Ross and only Ross. I never applied to a single US medical school. I knew people who had made it through and I knew they had done well.

It's a licensed school that's recognized in California. Saved me 2 years, which in dollar figures is priceless

 

[PikminOC]

What happens if I don't make my student loan payment?
If you don’t make your student loan payment or make your payment late, your loan may eventually go into default. If you default on your student loan, that status will be reported to credit bureaus, and your credit rating and future borrowing ability will be damaged. In addition, legal action can be taken to require payment through garnishment of wages and withholding of tax refunds.

https://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/understand
There's always a way out.
People with high debt don't care about these consequences.
Nor do the people who cosigned.
Luckily, many of the students in the Caribbean have rich parents who pay lots of money to put their kids there..

 

[MrGrrrMonster]

Saved me 2 years, which in dollar figures is priceless

back when you went to school... right? Tough to argue its a money pit now compared to US schools.

 

[Bancrofti]

My OMSIIIs routinely tell me that they encounter Carib students who don't know how to take histories, much less do basic physical exams.

That's funny, because I've routinely encountered the same. I remember the first day of my surgery rotation and while rounding the chief began pimping with physical diagnosis signs of appendicitis... Appendicitis! I answered every single question that was posed to the group and afterwards the kids from the US Allo school asked me how I knew everything so early in the rotation and how much detail we had to the Clinical Skills course we had at SGU, as if I had just rattled of some complicated treatment logarithm that only a 4th year resident would be expected to know.

I cannot say that these things are routine though and I would obviously not try to generalize about all Allo kids because of experiences like these. For the most part, I actually love the fact that I am one of, if not the only, carib student on my rotations. US kids are typically prepared and professional. There are always 1 or 2 who seem to not be on the ball or not care during the rotation. I think the same % of kids probably exists at a school such as mine. The issue is that we have so many fricking people that it may seem like we're putting out a lot of subpar students. If you take the bottom 5% of the average US school, they definitely aren't stellar by any means, but for most schools 5% of the graduating class is normally a single digit number. For a carib school, #1 you can probably expand on that 5% as the number of kids who may show up unprepared, but consider that a school can be putting out roughly 1,000 kids in third year at one time? That isn't a representative portion of the students, but on an absolute level it is certainly enough people to leaving a lasting impression to anyone who ends up working with more than 1.

So.....what were your rotations like? Hours, call, pimping, etc? What procedures are you comfortable with?

Requirements vary by rotation. My rotations are like others that I've heard of. I get a pretty decent exposure to a number of things, especially things that would be classified as "bread and butter medicine." I take call, we get pimped, I feel comfortable assisting in the OR and I feel comfortable seeing patients on my own for simple things. I personally do wish there were certain things that I got to experience to make my clinical clerkships more complete, but I know that students at other clinical sites do get to experience them so I don't feel that the school leaves us unprepared as a whole. I chose my site for proximity to home and a few other reasons, but I was aware that I would possibly get more out of third year at a few other sites.

Edit: I thought of it this morning that there is one difference that some may consider significant. Family Medicine is a mandatory rotation, but is not a core rotation. Also, Neuro is not a core rotation for us. I know that I've met a few people for which both of those are cores, so I'm assuming it may be that way at most Allo schools. On the flip side, surgery is a 12 week requirement for us as opposed to 8.

 

[mgdsh]

Some sure, maybe. But at the end you're risking the credit ratings of at least 2 people.

I'm guessing these aren't your typical people with high debt.

What happens if I don't make my student loan payment?
If you don’t make your student loan payment or make your payment late, your loan may eventually go into default. If you default on your student loan, that status will be reported to credit bureaus, and your credit rating and future borrowing ability will be damaged. In addition, legal action can be taken to require payment through garnishment of wages and withholding of tax refunds.

https://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/understand
There's always a way out.
People with high debt don't care about these consequences.
Nor do the people who cosigned.
Luckily, many of the students in the Caribbean have rich parents who pay lots of money to put their kids there..

 

[mgdsh]

back when you went to school... right? Tough to argue its a money pit now compared to US schools.

True, they've jacked up the tuition a ton compared to when I was there.

 

[Stagg737]

Right and all we're saying is that this is a viable route and option for many people.

I honestly have no idea how you can fail out of medical school once you get in. In the end it takes some level of intelligence (say IQ >110?) and merely putting in the work.

I don't think anyone is saying it isn't a viable route to becoming a physician for some people. However, for a huge percentage of people who go there it's just a terrible decision which is shown by high attrition rates and low match rates.

 

[PL198]

Carina Crookston, a 36-year-old aspiring oncologist and mother of three from Minnesota, had sticker shock just from the cost of living in St. Maarten. Her family’s first air-conditioning bill was $700 and had to be paid at the utility office in cash. A gallon of milk cost about $7, more than twice the price back home...
Carina Crookston, a 36-year-old aspiring oncologist and mother of three from Minnesota, had sticker shock just from the cost of living in St. Maarten. Her family’s first air-conditioning bill was $700 and had to be paid at the utility office in cash. A gallon of milk cost about $7, more than twice the price back home.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...medical-school-rejects-as-taxpayers-fund-debt

Wtf, AC bill? Do they mean electric... I can't imagine how much total it would all cost with their tuition and I'm assuming a pretty high COL

 

[PL198]

I don't think anyone is saying it isn't a viable route to becoming a physician for some people. However, for a huge percentage of people who go there it's just a terrible decision which is shown by high attrition rates and low match rates.

Their choice. If you want to quit your job and move to Bulgaria and take up bread making you're allowed to do that

Carribean is a bad choice for a lot of people, but it's still their choice. Most people make mistakes to get there in the first place, so it shouldn't be a field of daisies.. You don't reward people from screwing up, which is the very reason most are there.

 

[the argus]

I mean, there are probably worse decisions someone could make in life... so thats a "fair" argument. But within the healthcare enterprise it is probably one of the more foolish decisions someone could make if other options are available. Each to their own, but it would probably never cross my mind to leave the US to learn medicine within a developing nation.

Ahh I apologize that I am not throughly versed on the caribbean schools curriculum. Where do clinical rotations occur then?

This sums up the majority of posts on this thread. People having strong opinions and making statements about something they actually know nothing about.

GroverPsychMD - everyone knows their are horror stories about caribbean students with massive loans and no residency. The point is whether you throw out the whole barrel because some of the apples are bad.

And the default rate on medical student loan debt from the caribbean is <1%, the same as for US allopathic.

This is the most balanced and honest article about caribbean medical schools.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/education/edlife/second-chance-med-school.html?_r=0

 

[PL198]

I bet the default rate is low because their parents (who are likely physicians) pick up the tab. All the people I know that ended up in carribean are people who had doc parents and the kids couldn't fathom how they didn't succeed enough to get into medical school in the US and I'm sure mommy and daddy couldn't either.

 

[Mad Jack]

I did. I chose to go to Ross. I applied to Ross and only Ross. I never applied to a single US medical school. I knew people who had made it through and I knew they had done well.

It's a licensed school that's recognized in California. Saved me 2 years, which in dollar figures is priceless

There's no such thing as wasted time, only that which you let slip away. Those two years would have been what you made of them.

 

[Mad Jack]

This sums up the majority of posts on this thread. People having strong opinions and making statements about something they actually know nothing about.

GroverPsychMD - everyone knows their are horror stories about caribbean students with massive loans and no residency. The point is whether you throw out the whole barrel because some of the apples are bad.

And the default rate on medical student loan debt from the caribbean is <1%, the same as for US allopathic.

This is the most balanced and honest article about caribbean medical schools.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/education/edlife/second-chance-med-school.html?_r=0

http://www.propublica.org/article/t...-for-caribbean-med-school-grads-defaults-1228

No one is in default because they are using IBR/PAYE. When it comes time for their debt to be forgiven, the taxpayers will have to foot the bill for their education plus interest, and worse still, they will be on the hook with the IRS as if that were earned income, and will end up with hundreds of thousands in default with the IRS. It looks great on paper for the Carib, but it's really a bull**** fact that hides how many of their students are actually drowning in debt faster than they can pay it off.

 

[JayHawks1983]

I would say leave the Caribbean graduates alone. They already have loans that most likely will be defaulted and a career that will never happen. It's very sad to see; however, it is up to us as adults to make the best and most well-informed decisions. Impulsive decisions usually end up going wrong, anywhere in life.

 

[the argus]

I'm sick of this...why don't you just tell us which respawn you are already?

No respawn, just a bored recent grad waiting for 3/20.

I'm still not quite sure what I have been saying that is so ridiculous and controversial. All I've been saying is the prevailing narrative about caribbean schools on this thread is incorrect.

This is perfectly exemplified by this table that you have been posting all over the forums

My point is it's not just a random number thrown around. It's the actual number - for the supposed good schools.

View attachment 189946

You have been using this as one of your examples why the caribbean is so bad, but it turns out you have completely misinterpreted where those numbers came from and what they represent.

As I've said all along, there is absolutely a certain amount of shadiness and uncertainty that comes along with a caribbean medical education. But its also true that a lot of the negatives are being way overblown and it is a good option for the >2000 people every year that successfully match into US residency positions.

I'm all done with this discussion, you guys have successfully broken my spirit.

 

[the argus]

Yup, that's fine the NRMP and the ECFMG are okay with defining it as match failure, but I'm misrepresenting it.

As I said before, you can compare the main match results with this release - the match failure group is vast majority going truly unmatched. The stats still suck, sorry.

OK one more.

Yes those stats suck. But as I already pointed out, the mean time since graduation for that cohort is 5.7 years. No one is arguing that there is not a cohort of caribbean grads that are bad and as such can't get a residency position. Those people build up and apply every year and bring down the overall match rate for caribbean grads.

As I stated before, the first-year match rate (i.e. recent grads in the match for the first time) for Ross was 86% last year, which while not as good as the 94% rate for US allopathic, is certainly not the 60% you have been claiming.

(that 86% came from the mouth of Joseph Flaherty, Dean of Ross. He was previously the Dean at University of Illinois COM, so if you want to question his truthfulness you can but I take him at his word)

Now I'm really done.

 

[PikminOC]

This sums up the majority of posts on this thread. People having strong opinions and making statements about something they actually know nothing about.

GroverPsychMD - everyone knows their are horror stories about caribbean students with massive loans and no residency. The point is whether you throw out the whole barrel because some of the apples are bad.

And the default rate on medical student loan debt from the caribbean is <1%, the same as for US allopathic.

This is the most balanced and honest article about caribbean medical schools.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/education/edlife/second-chance-med-school.html?_r=0

Um....you do know the nytimes and their attitudes towards physicians and other topics right??? You do know they are heavily slanted..

And the Caribbean default is low because they have to have a cosigner who takes the hit.
In the US there is usually no cosigner...

 

[mgdsh]

I don't think anyone is saying it isn't a viable route to becoming a physician for some people. However, for a huge percentage of people who go there it's just a terrible decision which is shown by high attrition rates and low match rates.

Some people have suggested that these schools shouldn't even be around. That's what I don't get. It's an option. Might not be the best one, but it's an option.

If it wasn't for Caribbean schools, people would be going to Poland, India, etc.

 

[Wordead]

Some people have suggested that these schools shouldn't even be around. That's what I don't get. It's an option. Might not be the best one, but it's an option.

If it wasn't for Caribbean schools, people would be going to Poland, India, etc.

A better option would be accepting that their lot in life might not be medicine

 

[mgdsh]

A better option would be accepting that their lot in life might not be medicine

Right and sometimes until you try, you'll never know. There's a price involved.

In the end you could be left with a lot of debt, but at least you know for sure you didn't have what it took.

 

[WingedOx]

Some people have suggested that these schools shouldn't even be around. That's what I don't get. It's an option. Might not be the best one, but it's an option.

If it wasn't for Caribbean schools, people would be going to Poland, India, etc.

In a lot of cases they already are. In some cases straight out of HS under parental pressure. We get applications from Americans going to school in both countries. They don't get interviews, but they try.

/If given the choice, I'd kill for a resident around here with some Polish language skills to deal with the Geri patients we get.

 

[MrGrrrMonster]

This sums up the majority of posts on this thread. People having strong opinions and making statements about something they actually know nothing about.

I mean I have an opinion- and it's just that. And I may not know a whole bunch about these schools, but I know enough to have that opinion, and to realize that in the ever increasing competitive US residency market it is just short of doing oneself a disservice to venture down to the sandy white beaches and clear blue waters of the caribbean for the purpose of eventually trying to match against US grads. It is obviously doable, but it seems on par to entering a boxing match with one hand tied behind your back.

That being said, I hope those that do embark on the endeavor are successful.

 

[Goro]

I honestly can't remember where I saw it, but I think that train is coming.

I don't think they should qualify for federal student loans

 

[Goro]

This mindset, in a nutshell, exemplifies one of the risk factors that gyngyn so eloquently enumerated as to why PDs don't want to hire Carib grads.

There's a world's difference in asking the hot babe out in high school and getting shot down vs not asking and never knowing if she would have said yes, than taking on the equivalent of a home mortgage and being unemployable in the field you were aiming for.

Right and sometimes until you try, you'll never know. There's a price involved.
In the end you could be left with a lot of debt, but at least you know for sure you didn't have what it took.

 

[KnuxNole]

A better option would be accepting that their lot in life might not be medicine

The thing is, these certain people, there is nothing anyone can say to stop them. Even if they go Carib and fail out, they apply to a 2nd carib school, and so on...

 

[Wordead]

The thing is, these certain people, there is nothing anyone can say to stop them. Even if they go Carib and fail out, they apply to a 2nd carib school, and so on...

That's why people are saying these schools should be shut down. We have enacted plenty of policies aimed at saving idiots from themselves, this would just be another. At least then they just waste a couple thousand a year reapplying to US med schools rather than hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

[PikminOC]

I treat some Caribbean docs as patients.
They tell me the schools are mills for passing the USMLE only.
That's why the other skills are not there.
They take pretests of USMLE they have to pass before taking the real one. This is how they ensure that people pass. When they do not pass the pretests, they have to pay for more semesters. This is a big deal as this is expensive and also why many don't graduate in the normal fast timespan they have.

 

[PL198]

That's why people are saying these schools should be shut down. We have enacted plenty of policies aimed at saving idiots from themselves, this would just be another. At least then they just waste a couple thousand a year reapplying to US med schools rather than hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Where do you draw the line?

 

[Wordead]

Where do you draw the line?

Nowhere, eventually I'll have my mind control device perfected and I'll just make decisions for all you lesser humans.

But really, this is not a slippery slope situation.

 

[JayHawks1983]

The way to know you are not cut out for medical school and a career in medicine is simple in today's world. A high pressure standardized exam against the best students like the MCAT. GPA can be gamed, in some commitees' views, but it can't be done so much with the MCAT. I have been told most of the students taking a high risk career in the Caribbean schools have been high GPA and low MCAT combination students.

 

[PL198]

Nowhere, eventually I'll have my mind control device perfected and I'll just make decisions for all you lesser humans.

But really, this is not a slippery slope situation.

Stop them for taking the mcat 10 times because they can't get a good score? Not allow a 45 yr old to return to college to fulfill premed reqs?

 

[PL198]

That's funny, because I've routinely encountered the same. I remember the first day of my surgery rotation and while rounding the chief began pimping with physical diagnosis signs of appendicitis... Appendicitis! I answered every single question that was posed to the group and afterwards the kids from the US Allo school asked me how I knew everything so early in the rotation and how much detail we had to the Clinical Skills course we had at SGU, as if I had just rattled of some complicated treatment logarithm that only a 4th year resident would be expected to know.

I cannot say that these things are routine though and I would obviously not try to generalize about all Allo kids because of experiences like these. For the most part, I actually love the fact that I am one of, if not the only, carib student on my rotations. US kids are typically prepared and professional. There are always 1 or 2 who seem to not be on the ball or not care during the rotation. I think the same % of kids probably exists at a school such as mine. The issue is that we have so many fricking people that it may seem like we're putting out a lot of subpar students. If you take the bottom 5% of the average US school, they definitely aren't stellar by any means, but for most schools 5% of the graduating class is normally a single digit number. For a carib school, #1 you can probably expand on that 5% as the number of kids who may show up unprepared, but consider that a school can be putting out roughly 1,000 kids in third year at one time? That isn't a representative portion of the students, but on an absolute level it is certainly enough people to leaving a lasting impression to anyone who ends up working with more than 1.



Requirements vary by rotation. My rotations are like others that I've heard of. I get a pretty decent exposure to a number of things, especially things that would be classified as "bread and butter medicine." I take call, we get pimped, I feel comfortable assisting in the OR and I feel comfortable seeing patients on my own for simple things. I personally do wish there were certain things that I got to experience to make my clinical clerkships more complete, but I know that students at other clinical sites do get to experience them so I don't feel that the school leaves us unprepared as a whole. I chose my site for proximity to home and a few other reasons, but I was aware that I would possibly get more out of third year at a few other sites.

Edit: I thought of it this morning that there is one difference that some may consider significant. Family Medicine is a mandatory rotation, but is not a core rotation. Also, Neuro is not a core rotation for us. I know that I've met a few people for which both of those are cores, so I'm assuming it may be that way at most Allo schools. On the flip side, surgery is a 12 week requirement for us as opposed to 8.

what kind of idiots don't know the clinical signs of appendicitis. maybe they all spontaneously had a stroke or something

 

[Psai]

what kind of idiots don't know the clinical signs of appendicitis. maybe they all spontaneously had a stroke or something

He's full of ****. I bet it was more about being nervous on the first day of a tough rotation than not knowing the answer

 

[Promethean]

The person I know best who went to a Carib, who refused to hear anything but that she was going to get to be an MD, who took her widowed mom to the island with her to keep house for her while she was in school, who went deep in debt to go on this adventure on loans that her mom co-signed for her.... that one?

Yeah, she pretends that it didn't happen.

She literally won't acknowledge that she was ever in medical school. When I casually asked her about it she just totally shut down and wouldn't speak to me for a few weeks. She talks up "her" research, as she works as a $12/hr lab assistant at a nearby university now, and talks about all the sacrifices she is making in order to follow her passion for science. She was always aiming for bench research. She never wanted to study medicine. I think she really believes it... Hell, after what she put her family through because she just wasn't disciplined enough to take a gap year and reapply to a US school or "settle" for a DO program, the cognitive dissonance needed to keep her sane almost guarantees that she needs to forget about it.

But she certainly isn't going to come on SDN and publicly admit her mistakes and how much it has cost her. So, there is one story.

I just found out another guy that I know flunked out of Ross with close to 200k in debt, besides his debt for undergrad and what he later spent for his CRNA. He makes enough (just) to keep up with his loans... but he does live in a crappy apartment with a roommate. I shudder to think about how other people who don't have that kind of earning potential can do it.

 

[Stagg737]

Their choice. If you want to quit your job and move to Bulgaria and take up bread making you're allowed to do that

Carribean is a bad choice for a lot of people, but it's still their choice. Most people make mistakes to get there in the first place, so it shouldn't be a field of daisies.. You don't reward people from screwing up, which is the very reason most are there.

Never said people shouldn't be able to make stupid decisions. Just said that there are consequences for those decisions that must be accepted. Sometimes they're good consequences, oftentimes they aren't.

Some people have suggested that these schools shouldn't even be around. That's what I don't get. It's an option. Might not be the best one, but it's an option.

If it wasn't for Caribbean schools, people would be going to Poland, India, etc.

It is an option, and if they didn't exist people would be asking "should I go to India/Poland/Israel/wherever" and I would tell them the exact same thing. It doesn't matter where you attend med school outside the U.S. The bottom line is that if you want to practice here, then going to school abroad (wherever that may be) is going to significantly hurt your chances in the match. Period. The Caribbean just takes the brunt of criticism because it's a more common route than the other countries you mentioned and it's also obscenely expensive in comparison.

I don't think they should qualify for federal student loans

+100. I still don't understand why this is allowed. The only exception I can think of for providing loans to international students is Puerto Rico, and it should be obvious why that's not an issue...

 

[PL198]

The person I know best who went to a Carib, who refused to hear anything but that she was going to get to be an MD, who took her widowed mom to the island with her to keep house for her while she was in school, who went deep in debt to go on this adventure on loans that her mom co-signed for her.... that one?

Yeah, she pretends that it didn't happen.

She literally won't acknowledge that she was ever in medical school. When I casually asked her about it she just totally shut down and wouldn't speak to me for a few weeks. She talks up "her" research, as she works as a $12/hr lab assistant at a nearby university now, and talks about all the sacrifices she is making in order to follow her passion for science. She was always aiming for bench research. She never wanted to study medicine. I think she really believes it... Hell, after what she put her family through because she just wasn't disciplined enough to take a gap year and reapply to a US school or "settle" for a DO program, the cognitive dissonance needed to keep her sane almost guarantees that she needs to forget about it.

But she certainly isn't going to come on SDN and publicly admit her mistakes and how much it has cost her. So, there is one story.

I just found out another guy that I know flunked out of Ross with close to 200k in debt, besides his debt for undergrad and what he later spent for his CRNA. He makes enough (just) to keep up with his loans... but he does live in a crappy apartment with a roommate. I shudder to think about how other people who don't have that kind of earning potential can do it.

chick sounds too delusional to even deal with

 

[Psai]

that's not a delusion, that's dissociation

 

[Stagg737]

OK one more.

Yes those stats suck. But as I already pointed out, the mean time since graduation for that cohort is 5.7 years. No one is arguing that there is not a cohort of caribbean grads that are bad and as such can't get a residency position. Those people build up and apply every year and bring down the overall match rate for caribbean grads.

As I stated before, the first-year match rate (i.e. recent grads in the match for the first time) for Ross was 86% last year, which while not as good as the 94% rate for US allopathic, is certainly not the 60% you have been claiming..

Let's pretend for 10 seconds that this statistic is true. According to Ross' website, 800 'fresh' graduates matched last year (http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/graduates.cfm). Doing some basic math, that means that they graduated 930 people last year, and 130 didn't match. Even with an 86% match rate, we have to keep in mind that some of those matched into pre-lim spots or transitional years, not good numbers imo (I would not attend any med school with a match rate below 90%, ever).

Now, if we assume that Ross' match rate is 60% (which according to the NRMP's stats, it's only 55%), we can figure out how many people were 'reapplicants' to the match assuming they really did match 800 people.

Assume 0 reapplicants matched (which is obviously untrue if the average graduation time is 5.7 years), then it reads as follows:

(X)(.60) = 800, where X is the number of total applicants. So X = 800/.6 = 1334

1333 - 930 (the number of new graduates) = 404

So, if the match rate really is 86% for first time applicants to the match, and that the given stat has any consistency, it means that ~ 125 people per year aren't matching, so over 3 years worth of unmatched students are reapplying every year. Keep in mind, this assumes that all of the people who go unmatched continue to not match but still reapply for at least 3 years after they graduate. Those numbers just don't add up to me.

That tells me 1 of 3 things are happening.

1. The NRMP is publishing false data.

2. The dean you spoke to or heard from didn't know what he was talking about (not unlikely if he's a new dean).

3. Ross university is greatly exaggerating their numbers or flat out lying on their website.

May the NRMP data isn't 100% accurate, but find it almost impossible to believe that they would be 30% off in their numbers. I also would like to think that any medical school wouldn't blatantly lie on their website, but crazier things have happened. However you look at it, the numbers don't add up, and I was being generous with those calculations. I'll stick to the numbers which show that Ross, or any Caribbean school, is a poor choice for anyone who seriously wants to practice in the U.S.

 

[the argus]

There are many things wrong with your assessment. I'll point out just 2.

1. Using data from the Ross website and NRMP reports together isn't OK. The Ross website includes people who prematch (i.e. get spots outside the NRMP), and the NRMP reports do not. So that right there is enough to pretty much completely nullify all your calculations.

2. As I have now pointed out at least 3 times, in the NRMP report you are referencing,
"For purposes of this report, match success is defined as a match to the specialty of the applicant’s first-ranked program because that is assumed to be the specialty of choice. Because preliminary programs provide only one or two years of prerequisite training for entry into advanced specialty training, applicants who ranked a preliminary program first are considered not to have a preferred specialty. Lack of match success includes matching to another specialty as well as failure to match at all"

Further, if you continue to read the fine print in the document,
"Overall, 48 percent of U.S. IMGs matched to their preferred specialty"

That means there is a large number of people who actually did match, but for the purposes of this report were counted as unmatched.

 

[Psai]

how many people actually get spots outside the match? they instituted the all-in rule recently

 

[PL198]

Why do they define matching that way? Is that how the US schools also define matching? Ie let's say a US student soaps into a position, is that counted as not matching on the schools stats?

 

[Mad Jack]

No respawn, just a bored recent grad waiting for 3/20.

I'm still not quite sure what I have been saying that is so ridiculous and controversial. All I've been saying is the prevailing narrative about caribbean schools on this thread is incorrect.

This is perfectly exemplified by this table that you have been posting all over the forums



You have been using this as one of your examples why the caribbean is so bad, but it turns out you have completely misinterpreted where those numbers came from and what they represent.

As I've said all along, there is absolutely a certain amount of shadiness and uncertainty that comes along with a caribbean medical education. But its also true that a lot of the negatives are being way overblown and it is a good option for the >2000 people every year that successfully match into US residency positions.

I'm all done with this discussion, you guys have successfully broken my spirit.

Good luck matching. You will need it (assuming you're a Carib grad).

And I'm being sincere, not sarcastic.

 

[the argus]

how many people actually get spots outside the match? they instituted the all-in rule recently

More than you would think, I don't have the actual number though. And the NRMP report we are referencing is using 2013 data, which I believe was the first year of the all in policy, so many programs were still outside of the match.

For instance, New York Methodist is a community hospital in Park Slope Brooklyn. They're IM program has ~30 spots per year and is completely made up of caribbean grads. This year, 2015, was the first time they actually used the NRMP. So in 2013, that counts for 30 spots just from one program at one hospital.

 

[Mad Jack]

More than you would think, I don't have the actual number though. And the NRMP report we are referencing is using 2013 data, which I believe was the first year of the all in policy, so many programs were still outside of the match.

For instance, New York Methodist is a community hospital in Park Slope Brooklyn. They're IM program has ~30 spots per year and is completely made up of caribbean grads. This year, 2015, was the first time they actually used the NRMP. So in 2013, that counts for 30 spots just from one program at one hospital.

Non-NRMP programs are the exception, not the norm. The programs outside the match will more than be offset by the increasing number of US MD and DO grads.