Where are all the caribean failure stories?

[cbrons]

Depends on what you're going into.

Fixed that for you. Just because an EC won't necessarily help me land a residency spot doesn't mean that it won't enrich me or help me achieve my personal goals in medicine. Besides, I think a dual degree and research which leads to 5-6 first author publications might just be seen as relevant ECs at some places...

research =/= ECs.

Lol "enrich" you.

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[Ismet]

research =/= ECs.

Yes, thank you, I know that.

Aren't you an MS2? Forgive me if I prefer to trust my faculty advisor and a couple program directors of my desired field, but ECs matter more than 0%. Depends on what you do and what you're going into, but I'd avoid making generalizations like "ECs matter 0%" before attempting to speak with any authority on the matter. It's not all about numbers.

 

[thecalccobra]

Though I didn't attend a Caribbean school, I went to South Asia for med school right after high school. Let me shed some insight.

I graduated high school in 2008. I matriculated in an in-state undergrad school in August 2008. I did well in high school (high SATs, GPA and all). In September, I found out I had gotten accepted to med school. It was a 5 year program which ended up being 5 years and 6 months after all was said and done due to public holidays, exams getting delayed, etc. I knew from day one what had to be done if I wanted a residency spot in the U.S. It was tough. The curriculum was not USMLE-geared and the college exams were very different. Most of my classmates who came straight from high school were immature. They didn't have a plan, and thought they were on a long vacation. Forward 5.5 years, I find out if I match on the 16th. I was fortunate enough to land a handful of interviews. Only one other person from my class applied this cycle. The rest are studying for Board exams.

It can be done. You just have to be motivated and dedicated.

However, I would no longer recommend going off-shore for medical school. It was fine 5-6 years ago but nowadays the competition for residency spots is very tough. I advised my brother, a senior who is waiting to hear back from a few Allopathic schools, to keep trying even if it takes him 3 cycles rather than go the Caribbean or South Asian route.

 

[operaman]

Yes, thank you, I know that.

Aren't you an MS2? Forgive me if I prefer to trust my faculty advisor and a couple program directors of my desired field, but ECs matter more than 0%. Depends on what you do and what you're going into, but I'd avoid making generalizations like "ECs matter 0%" before attempting to speak with any authority on the matter. It's not all about numbers.

There's definitely a persistent myth on SDN that ECs don't matter at all. I think the disconnect comes from:

1) the generally-accepted position that ECs matter less for residency apps than they did for pre-meds applying to medical school. By comparison, they don't "really matter." This perception is what leads some to say they don't matter at all.

2) Some advisors trying to emphasize the most-important things by overly downplaying the rest. Things like "don't worry about volunteering or leadership, just focus on Step 1 and grades" are commonly heard. By comparison, the numbers are light-years more important, but some people who are less comfortable with nuance may take such advice too literally.

3) Some people forget that many of us do things without any thought of how it will look on an application. I think this is somewhat of a luxury that not all students can indulge, so those who can't may not even consider the possibility that you would volunteer or start an organization or run for a leadership position simply because you wanted to.

4) This is commonly told to upperclassmen simply to assuage their concerns over having too few ECs. This usually goes along with other myths like "grades don't really matter."

5) MOST important: no ONE thing on your app (with the possible exception of your step 1 score) really "matters" in and of itself. In the context of an otherwise superior application, any single deficiency can probably be overlooked. The reality is that apps like this are pretty rare. The patterns of behavior and choices that lead to one deficiency will probably lead to more.

 

[PL198]

There's definitely a persistent myth on SDN that ECs don't matter at all. I think the disconnect comes from:

1) the generally-accepted position that ECs matter less for residency apps than they did for pre-meds applying to medical school. By comparison, they don't "really matter." This perception is what leads some to say they don't matter at all.

2) Some advisors trying to emphasize the most-important things by overly downplaying the rest. Things like "don't worry about volunteering or leadership, just focus on Step 1 and grades" are commonly heard. By comparison, the numbers are light-years more important, but some people who are less comfortable with nuance may take such advice too literally.

3) Some people forget that many of us do things without any thought of how it will look on an application. I think this is somewhat of a luxury that not all students can indulge, so those who can't may not even consider the possibility that you would volunteer or start an organization or run for a leadership position simply because you wanted to.

4) This is commonly told to upperclassmen simply to assuage their concerns over having too few ECs. This usually goes along with other myths like "grades don't really matter."

5) MOST important: no ONE thing on your app (with the possible exception of your step 1 score) really "matters" in and of itself. In the context of an otherwise superior application, any single deficiency can probably be overlooked. The reality is that apps like this are pretty rare. The patterns of behavior and choices that lead to one deficiency will probably lead to more.

lets be honest. 99.999 % of medical students are doing things to look good on your CV. you might be mother theresa, but that would make you 1/100000000000.

ECs are extremely far down the list below step 1, clinical grades, LOR, preclinical grades and research.

It's not really difficult to see why ECs don't mean jack ****. Sitting in a circle eating ice cream once a month and talking about a book you read, really doesn't reflect anything about how you will be as a physician. Neither will being (insert random interest group here) that meets 3 times a year and does 1 activity per year.

 

[Psai]

i don't know man, many of the program directors here have told us that they don't care for extracurriculars
only derm and ent were like oh yeah you better have research

mother teresa was a narcissistic person and mean to the nuns

 

[Ismet]

Do your schools seriously have nothing going on other than pointless interest groups? What about service groups? Free clinic? Public health initiatives? Underserved outreach? Mentoring/teaching youths? Music groups?

Maybe my school is an outlier, but our student groups actually get meaningful stuff done for the community.

 

[Stagg737]

lets be honest. 99.999 % of medical students are doing things to look good on your CV. you might be mother theresa, but that would make you 1/100000000000.

ECs are extremely far down the list below step 1, clinical grades, LOR, preclinical grades and research.

It's not really difficult to see why ECs don't mean jack ****. Sitting in a circle eating ice cream once a month and talking about a book you read, really doesn't reflect anything about how you will be as a physician. Neither will being (insert random interest group here) that meets 3 times a year and does 1 activity per year.

Once again, depends on the EC. Most don't help much, some can help immensely, but there are far more ECs out there than just being member of a club or volunteering. Our school is starting a free clinic this year and some of my friends are directors for the program. One of them in particular is the 'recruitment director' or something like that. His whole job is to reach out to physicians and residents to help oversee the clinic as student supervisors and make connections. Pretty sure making connections with people in residency programs in the area will not have been meaningless when it comes time to apply to their programs...

 

[anaesthetic]

.

 

[PL198]

Do your schools seriously have nothing going on other than pointless interest groups? What about service groups? Free clinic? Public health initiatives? Underserved outreach? Mentoring/teaching youths? Music groups?

Maybe my school is an outlier, but our student groups actually get meaningful stuff done for the community.

even still. I don't care if you run the entire free clinic for your school. that's still way way way below research and preclinical grades which are already way down there.

it's like we're debating if they are 0 percent of the pie or 1 %. I don't really care, if they mean something it's still minuscule.

 

[Ismet]

even still. I don't care if you run the entire free clinic for your school. that's still way way way below research and preclinical grades which are already way down there.

it's like we're debating if they are 0 percent of the pie or 1 %. I don't really care, if they mean something it's still minuscule.

It's not minuscule though. Can you back up your percentages with data instead of making it up?

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

For some specialties, "volunteering/extracurriculars" is cited at around the same level as things like AOA and honors in clerkship in desired specialty, and actually well above pre-clinical grades.

 

[PL198]

I don't care what 40 PDs in a survey say. you're delusional if you think honors in clerkship in that specialty is the same importance as volunteering and EC

my guess is they lumped research into that distinction

 

[Ismet]

I don't care what 40 PDs in a survey say. you're delusional if you think honors in clerkship in that specialty is the same importance as volunteering and EC

my guess is they lumped research into that distinction

Research is a separate distinction.

But obviously a 2nd year medical student knows more about what every specialty looks for than PDs do.

 

[PL198]

yeah ok find me someone that says clinical grades are as important as ECs please.

 

[Lord_Vader]

I know a few people that started at St. George's recently because it's one of the more "prestigious" Carribean schools. I don't know why anyone would consider going outside of the US these days as residency is not going to become less competitive anytime soon. Plus there are new US MD/DO schools opening up almost every few months now which will make the whole matching process even more competitive. You really have to think what's going through the minds of these people when they commit themselves to 4 years of non-traditional and sometimes substandard training with a very good chance of not landing a residency spot even with average numbers.

 

[PL198]

I know a few people that started at St. George's recently because it's one of the more "prestigious" Carribean schools. I don't know why anyone would consider going outside of the US these days as residency is not going to become less competitive anytime soon. Plus there are new US MD/DO schools opening up almost every few months now which will make the whole matching process even more competitive. You really have to think what's going through the minds of these people when they commit themselves to 4 years of non-traditional and sometimes substandard training with a very good chance of not landing a residency spot even with average numbers.

it's not like they choose the caribbean over american schools..

 

[JimmyB123]

it's not like they choose the caribbean over american schools..

Know someone that did exactly that this cycle. You'd be surprised how many questionable people are out there.

 

[Psai]

It's not minuscule though. Can you back up your percentages with data instead of making it up?

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

For my specialty, "volunteering/extracurriculars" was cited at about the same level as things like AOA and honors in clerkship in desired specialty, and actually well above pre-clinical grades.

this is just a survey where people are clicking through things. it doesn't even come close to showing you what PDs actually care about or why

everyone looks at step 1 and third year grades, it's definitely not just 80% of programs. they want to see that you will be able to pass their board exams. letters of rec are also important as they show programs that you're good to work with and did well in their field. personal statement probably doesn't help but it can hurt.

 

[Ismet]

yeah ok find me someone that says clinical grades are as important as ECs please.

I never said that. In the grand scheme of things, ECs are certainly not at the top of the list of important things, but they're not of insignificant importance either.

Honors in the clerkship of your desired specialty is obviously desirable, but not exceedingly important for some specialties.

 

[Lord_Vader]

it's not like they choose the caribbean over american schools..

Of course no one chooses to go to the Carribean. It's a last resort option for almost all pre-meds. And therein lies the problem. It really shouldn't be the last resort option. If you don't get in the first time you apply to a US MD school, then apply again next year after improving your application. I was in a similar situation that many Carribean students find themselves after college. I didn't get into a single MD school and was waitlisted at a DO school after graduation. Instead of choosing the easy way out and going to the Carribean, I got a post-bacc and worked my ass off for the MCAT and was able to land a spot within my state's MD school within 2 years. Unfortunately, many students who are in a position similar to mine take the easy way out instead and go to the Carribean without thinking about the consequences. They rush in thinking that everything will be okay when there's a very good chance that they could find themselves having wasted 4+ years of their lives with a massive amount of debt. I almost feel pity for them but you'd be kidding yourself if you think that this sort of information isn't available online to be looked up. It's no secrete that the vast majority of Carribean students either don't match or end up matching into a non-competitive speciality with very few actually going onto a competitive speciality. Carribean students who are going to be attempting a match within the next few years have a very good chance of not matching at all with the residency shortage. But again all of this information is out there but it seems that people are either too lazy to look it up or too optimistic and unrealistic about their expectations.

 

[Ismet]

it's not like they choose the caribbean over american schools..

I know someone who did. Her sibling had gone to whatever school is in Grenada and ended up doing well and matching to a US residency, so she figured she could just do that too. We'll see how that goes in a couple years.

 

[fancymylotus]

Hrmmmm
Everyone I know that came out of the Caribbean graduated at least 5-7 years ago. They're all doing well and as far as I know had no issues with finding residency spots in whatever they wanted

I guess the problems are more recent?

 

[Psai]

I know someone who did. Her sibling had gone to whatever school is in Grenada and ended up doing well and matching to a US residency, so she figured she could just do that too. We'll see how that goes in a couple years.

So she was accepted to both us and carib schools and choose caribbean?

 

[Ismet]

So she was accepted to both us and carib schools and choose caribbean?

She didn't even apply to US MD schools. She literally chose Caribbean. Obv n=1, but it happens.

 

[Ismet]

Hrmmmm
Everyone I know that came out of the Caribbean graduated at least 5-7 years ago. They're all doing well and as far as I know had no issues with finding residency spots in whatever they wanted

I guess the problems are more recent?

Did you know them before or after they went to a Carib school? It's not impossible to match to a US residency. Put your nose to the grindstone, work hard, and get great grades/scores/recs and you have a good shot. It's the people who go there as a last resort/"easy way out" like the person I know (don't have to study too hard for the MCAT? Cool!) that are probably the ones who end up not matching.

 

[fancymylotus]

Did you know them before or after they went to a Carib school? It's not impossible to match to a US residency. Put your nose to the grindstone, work hard, and get great grades/scores/recs and you have a good shot. It's the people who go there as a last resort/"easy way out" like the person I know (don't have to study too hard for the MCAT? Cool!) that are probably the ones who end up not matching.

Before during and after

Most are family members

One is an idiot that I dated when I was a resident

 

[Psai]

She didn't even apply to US MD schools. She literally chose Caribbean. Obv n=1, but it happens.

So basically she chose the Caribbean over the US like how i chose my college over Harvard

 

[username456789]

She didn't even apply to US MD schools. She literally chose Caribbean. Obv n=1, but it happens.

Those people likely already had the decision made for them before they ever applied.

 

[the argus]

It's not impossible to match to a US residency. Put your nose to the grindstone, work hard, and get great grades/scores/recs and you have a good shot. It's the people who go there as a last resort/"easy way out" like the person I know (don't have to study too hard for the MCAT? Cool!) that are probably the ones who end up not matching.

Watch out. If you keep making comments that are thoughtful and realistic, people are going to come here and start pontificating.

When discussing caribbean medical education, it is much more appropriate to make gross generalizations and present speculative nonsense as fact. You know, like this,

And the Lotto gives worthy people a chance to become millionaires...but it's not a wise investment strategy either.

My OMSIIIs routinely tell me that they encounter Carib students who don't know how to take histories, much less do basic physical exams.

This mindset, in a nutshell, exemplifies one of the risk factors that gyngyn so eloquently enumerated as to why PDs don't want to hire Carib grads.

No, but patients need protection against inadequately trained doctors, who specifically go to these places because by paying large sums of money, they can skirt the requirements for medical students.

Unless you're OK with the idea that someone can get a MD degree simply by breathing and writing a tuition check?

I specifically pointed out that it was the residencies that are poor, where Carib grads manage to end up in

 

[Psai]

Watch out. If you keep making comments that are thoughtful and realistic, people are going to come here and start pontificating.

When discussing caribbean medical education, it is much more appropriate to make gross generalizations and present speculative nonsense as fact. You know, like this,

It's poor form to call someone out like that and against tos

 

[the argus]

It's poor form to call someone out like that and against tos

holding people accountable for the things they say is poor form? These are all direct quotes.

 

[the argus]

you're right, wouldn't want to get in the way of the extremely high level of discourse going on here

caribbean schools suck, most of their students suck, get over it

 

[Goro]

It's OK, Southern. I have a 9 year old daughter, so I'm used to someone trying to have the last word.

And I think goro would stand by all of them. But to say you want "thoughtful and realistic" discussion, but then just quote a wall of text to fan the flames - shows you are more interested in being a d*** and getting the last word in than actually having that thoughtful and realistic discussion.

 

[PL198]

It's OK, Southern. I have a 9 year old daughter, so I'm used to someone trying to have the last word.

you guys are doing the same thing. you're trying to act like you're high and mighty and trying to get in the last word too. if you were so above it, you'd just stop posting in the thread. if you can't realize that, then you're a giant hypocrite.

both sides are sorta right.

yes the Caribbeans are risky and lots of students fail out. yes they probably train people at a crappier rate than the avg US school. yes they are money machines.

yes they give student opportunities, with which the student can make what they want. yes there are some good caribbean-made docs.

you guys have your own little circle-jerk just because someone disagrees with you so you're effectively trying to over-talk them and its hilarious. all the things you are bitching about, you are doing yourself. you're like a 9 yr old girl liking each others posts.

then you say its wrong to call someone out, yet you guys are going 3 v 1 against someone. seems logical.

its like you're blinded by some bloodlust or something where you can't admit that there are merits to the other side. god forbid

I'm critical of the caribbeans but I'm not stupid enough to only recognize their faults.

 

[Psai]

you guys are doing the same thing. you're trying to act like you're high and mighty and trying to get in the last word too. if you were so above it, you'd just stop posting in the thread. if you can't realize that, then you're a giant hypocrite.

both sides are sorta right.

yes the Caribbeans are risky and lots of students fail out. yes they probably train people at a crappier rate than the avg US school. yes they are money machines.

yes they give student opportunities, with which the student can make what they want. yes there are some good caribbean-made docs.

you guys have your own little circle-jerk just because someone disagrees with you so you're effectively trying to over-talk them and its hilarious. all the things you are bitching about, you are doing yourself. you're like a 9 yr old girl liking each others posts.

You just mad cause no one liking your posts

 

[Serous Demilune]

you guys are doing the same thing. you're trying to act like you're high and mighty and trying to get in the last word too. if you were so above it, you'd just stop posting in the thread. if you can't realize that, then you're a giant hypocrite.

both sides are sorta right.

yes the Caribbeans are risky and lots of students fail out. yes they probably train people at a crappier rate than the avg US school. yes they are money machines.

yes they give student opportunities, with which the student can make what they want. yes there are some good caribbean-made docs.

you guys have your own little circle-jerk just because someone disagrees with you so you're effectively trying to over-talk them and its hilarious. all the things you are bitching about, you are doing yourself. you're like a 9 yr old girl liking each others posts.

then you say its wrong to call someone out, yet you guys are going 3 v 1 against someone. seems logical.

its like you're blinded by some bloodlust or something where you can't admit that there are merits to the other side. god forbid

I'm critical of the caribbeans but I'm not stupid enough to only recognize their faults.

Allo has turned to complete **** with these 3-4 posters tag-teaming each other on every thread. Reminds me of the days when Dermviser and SouthernIM used to roam.

 

[Ismet]

Let's keep it civil and professional please.

 

[Serous Demilune]

Whoops looks like I'm about to get banned. I'm sorry!

 

[touchpause13]

Whoops looks like I'm about to get banned. I'm sorry!

Aw I liked you

 

[PL198]

Allo has turned to complete **** with these 3-4 posters tag-teaming each other on every thread. Reminds me of the days when Dermviser and SouthernIM used to roam.

southernsurgeon and southernIM are the same person

 

[jeffk805dent]

Allo has turned to complete **** with these 3-4 posters tag-teaming each other on every thread. Reminds me of the days when Dermviser and SouthernIM used to roam.

speaking of Derm what exactly got him banned? That would be like arresting an American citizen for perfectly filing his taxes.

 

[fullmetal]

I noticed this thread on the front page and thought I would offer my 0.02.

I am a Canadian caribbean student currently back home studying for Step 1.

The cold hard truth is that caribbean schools are just like any other business. They will tell you all the good things about their product while avoiding talking about all the bad things. The three key stats you want to know are ATTRITION RATE, AVERAGE USMLE STEP 1 SCORES and MATCH RATES, and these are the exact questions they will avoid answering. The answer to these questions (from top Caribbean schools, based on my experience, not reported statistics, because there aren't any), is ~30% in the first two years, below the US average, and 60-70%, respectively.

There is significant financial risk in attending one of these schools. For the more expensive schools, its a $300,000 bet. But it's not like you're putting 300 grand in chips on black and spinning the wheel. Your odds of success are determined by how hard you work and as I am finding, the #1 quality medical schools look for: perseverance. Not only are you dealing with the stress of medical school (arguably one of the most difficult schools to attend), but you also have to stomach the uncertainty that comes along with it... an uncertainty that both Canadian and American students do not have to deal with.

The USMLE STEP 1 becomes a much more daunting task when you know it will determine if you will have a job that will pay back your loan vs. determining what program you can get into, with all that debt piling up behind you.

The reality is, if you attend these schools with the expectation of entering primary care (FM, IM, Peds), and do better than the average student who attends them, you will likely have a job at the end of the day. But you will have to fight harder than the average medical student just to land a mediocre residency. If you decide to attend, you are going all in, and that means fighting every single day for the next 4 years of your life. No matter how cynical you become, no matter how much you doubt yourself or your choice, you have to give it your all every single day until you get out.

Many people on this forum are quick to fault students who attend the caribbean for not doing enough research. In reality, much of the information that exists online is varied: everyone has a different opinion, different viewpoints and even different statistics. Also over a dozen times I've seen people on online forums just drop a lmgtfy link rather than offer real advice. However, fingers should really be pointed at the schools for not providing accurate statistics, even when asked directly.

P.S. To answer the question posed by the person who started this thread - the main reason why people aren't posting on these forums is because they don't even know they exist.

 

[Nonplussed]

The reality is, if you attend these schools with the expectation of entering primary care (FM, IM, Peds), and do better than the average student who attends them, you will likely have a job at the end of the day. But you will have to fight harder than the average medical student just to land a mediocre residency. If you decide to attend, you are going all in, and that means fighting every single day for the next 4 years of your life. No matter how cynical you become, no matter how much you doubt yourself or your choice, you have to give it your all every single day until you get out.

My sentiments exactly. There were a few days in which National Student Loan Data System became the sole champion of my motivation. Nothing like fear to keep you going.

 

[tartesos]

I'd chuckle at seeing THEM fail too. And they did probably fail. I find those that fail tend to go in without knowing what they're getting themselves into.

But still, for people like Attendings, Residents, even myself as a 4th year Osteopathic student, it's easy to sympathize, coming from a place of relative privilege.

I see the corner into which a lot of these people have backed into, and as cynical and sometimes even cold as I can be, it plucks my heartstrings to see how much of the system is rigged against them. And it looks like it's getting worse.

Very true and nice words my friend...
It's a tough situation and I would hate to see anyone I know/care about in that position.
I'm a Caribbean grad myself( I was born in the Caribbean and went to med school there) and sometimes I don't think I'm grateful enough for the way things have turned out for me( why me and not someone else too? ).
All that is left to do is to is just to share your knowledge and advise and don't let anyone go the Caribbean route Mis informed from
Now on... Because it will get uglier for img's in the future.