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This is why it's nice to be male. Fraternity admissions were rolling.
edit: eh, just saw @Ismet's post. I think it's on topic enough. oh well.
Where are all the caribean failure stories?
- Thread starter Dr Air Jordan
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This is why it's nice to be male. Fraternity admissions were rolling.
edit: eh, just saw @Ismet's post. I think it's on topic enough. oh well.
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Not the Websters; maybe the Weitzmans.@Winged Scapula is going to throw one of her sophia websters at your head
Giggles.
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Dude... it took me two seconds to find several dozen sdn posts and other blogs about it. Just google "Caribbean medical school failure." I read this one from time to time a while ago: http://www.6medschool.com/. This sentence alone would scare me off the Caribbean pretty fast: "When it comes to the amount of debt I'm in, I describe myself as a former medical student with medical school debt with no medical degree. It's kind of a mouth full, but it kind of says it all. The truth is that I'm probably going to be paying back my loans for the rest of my life."
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that person is a *****, I just read the last post
" I'm better at reading EKGs now that I'm an EKG technician than I ever was as a medical student."
Who would have thought? You mean a biology lab worker knows more about biology than me?
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Those blogs reek of failure. I don't know what happened to those guys, but man, it makes me sad. How far you have to fall..
Wait, you mean a tech who literally only has one job is generally better than most other people at that one thing than other, more educated people, where that one thing makes a very small part of their job?
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The EKG has to be read by a physician anyway.
Understandable, but the decision to act/not act is being done prior to the cardiologist providing an overread. Just like how we act based on the ultrasound tech's informal echo and US reads. Regardless, I still have no doubt that someone whose sole job is to read EKGs all day, provided he gives the slightest damn about his job, can out read me on an EKG, given I might read only a couple a day.
I went to Ross, started at age 20. Never applied to a single US Medical school. Never really 'studied' before going there. Worked well for me. Saved me 2 years of undergrad and was left with a fraction of the loans most people through the traditional route have.
That being said, doing it all over I probably would advised the younger me to be patient, do well and get into a US Allopathic school. Why? Chances of success are much much higher.
Most of the people that don't make it end up in other health related careers. Even if you were friends with some of those folks, you may not hear from them or see them again.
That being said, doing it all over I probably would advised the younger me to be patient, do well and get into a US Allopathic school. Why? Chances of success are much much higher.
Most of the people that don't make it end up in other health related careers. Even if you were friends with some of those folks, you may not hear from them or see them again.
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Yeah but it sounds like this guy is in some kind of situation where he's getting transmitted EKGs from somewhere else and has to decide whether to kick them up to a physician to read or not? That's what it sounds like at least.
...except this guy's job is apparently to read EKGs transmitted from some sort of halter monitor setup and decide when to call a physician or not, thus making it much closer to echo/US techs (or do you read echos too?).
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which was the underlying principle of my comment, before we got into the d*ck measuring contest
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Pretty sure you'd lose that contest.
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Ah, I didn't read the blog. Just went off the quote and assumed it was a tech who just hooked up the patient and ran the machine.
Not only that, when you have an extremely limited scope, you tend to overemphasize the importance of what you can do. Ever see EMTs talk about how important supplemental oxygen is? Yea... because that's almost the limit of their scope.
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Not me, I can't even tell you how many dicks I've measured. I would beast it.
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Just talked to a friend today who didn't do as well as he hoped on the MCAT. Said he didn't prep as well as he could have but he might retake it. Says he loves the Caribbean and would love to go to med school there. Tried my darnedest to dissuade him but he was dead convinced that they have better USMLE scores than 2/3 of American med schools, they match at 98%.. Said he got the numbers online and from the schools when he called them 
these schools really are putting out the rhetoric and it feels pretty dishonest.
Kept trying to tell him the match rate was only 60% but he was set in his ways.. I eventually just told him he needs to retake the MCAT.
these schools really are putting out the rhetoric and it feels pretty dishonest.Kept trying to tell him the match rate was only 60% but he was set in his ways.. I eventually just told him he needs to retake the MCAT.
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I can see the appeal of the Caribbean to any pre med who is sol. At my current college ross would be on campus every 3 months promoting themselves.
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Just talked to a friend today who didn't do as well as he hoped on the MCAT. Said he didn't prep as well as he could have but he might retake it. Says he loves the Caribbean and would love to go to med school there. Tried my darnedest to dissuade him but he was dead convinced that they have better USMLE scores than 2/3 of American med schools, they match at 98%.. Said he got the numbers online and from the schools when he called them
Kept trying to tell him the match rate was only 60% but he was set in his ways.. I eventually just told him he needs to retake the MCAT.
that's called rationalization
kid has a good chance of ruining his life
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Said he got the numbers online and from the schools when he called them
Kept trying to tell him the match rate was only 60% but he was set in his ways.. I eventually just told him he needs to retake the MCAT.
He probably embellished or misunderstood, because no school publishes or talks about a match rate that high. The only thing at 98% would be the USMLE first time pass rate, which even that I feel like can be a little deceiving to college kids because having a 98% pass rate means nothing if your overall USMLE average is a standard deviation below the US average. That being said, the match rates that float around SDN, i.e. 60%, are presumed match rates by US allo kids on the boards. The actual match rates vary markedly among the Caribbean schools.
... the match rate for every single Caribbean medical school is 60%? Take a look at the 2014 NRMP data.
I've seen people literally throw numbers around in other threads, which is why I said that.
SGU has a lot of prelims, without question, especially by US standards. However, the match list from last year is <10% prelim positions of their 800 or so students that matched.
In any case, none of the match rates are "good." There is enough info out there about the hardships people will face if they choose to go to a carib school, but if they are going to do it anyway, I think people should be aware of which schools have a history of having >2/3 of students match vs. the schools that have <1/3 of students match. Like I said, neither is good, but if you're going to do it anyway, I feel like that makes a big difference.
Is this just for the folks who have actually applied for residency? I.e. it doesn't count those that have been weeded out along the way?
I stand corrected then. I actually thought it would average out to a little higher than 60%. I saw the numbers for SGU, Ross, and AUC. The last % I saw was higher than 60% for what I thought was Saba, but must have been some other carib school.
It is worth noting that a good chunk of students get positions outside the match. For example, SGU claims that on average 29% of graduates obtain a position outside the match, which would seem to account for the discrepancy there with the 67% rate at 534 matched, but 800+ students on their match list.
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holy **** the big carribean schools have that many kids left at the end, so how many start in a class, like 2000+ for ross? that seems like it would be very difficult to manage from a logistical standpoint alone
Probably also worth noting that there are people in these % who apply multiple times and don't match thus bringing down some of the #s.
I'd imagine 'class' sizes are closer to 1200+ yearly, if not more.
When I started in 02, we had about 250 students in our class. Ross is on a trimester system so roughly 3x that for a total class size for the year. That number includes those who had to repeat semesters so maybe total class size in 2002 was closer to 700. With in 2 years of that average incoming class was closer to 400. I have no idea what it is at now.
We knew most everyone in our class early on but over time as people spread out you lose track of who actually made it and who didn't. 60% of the people I hung out with made it through (including residency completion).
It has a huge impact. I know for SGU, the school contributes >15% of the country's GDP, in addition to the scholarships it offers citizens for undergraduate and graduate education. And yea it's pretty crazy as far as class sizes. Even if you are fairly social, it is possible to spend 2 years there and leave still not knowing half the class.
It's still growing, which is the sad thing to me. When I started we had roughly 500 kids in the class. By the time I was leaving the rumor was that the last admitting class was >700 students. I do genuinely believe there is enough space with construction and enough slots at clinical spots for all those kids, but I'm not sure what they think those extra kids are going to do come match time. They went from a yearly class of ~400 to greater than 12,000, with a match rate that has likely not changed and will likely only get worse.
Right but at the end of the day these guys are giving people the opportunity. If you think you have what it takes, then you are encouraged to apply.
There are players in the NFL that go undrafted yet still make it. Odds are against them, but they are still overlooked and some still make it.
This is no different. If you truly believe you have what it takes, then here's your shot. In the end, far too many people overestimate themselves. Can't really fault the schools for that.
There are players in the NFL that go undrafted yet still make it. Odds are against them, but they are still overlooked and some still make it.
This is no different. If you truly believe you have what it takes, then here's your shot. In the end, far too many people overestimate themselves. Can't really fault the schools for that.
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You are misinterpreting the numbers in that study and are underestimating match rates. If you read the intro section, you will see
"For purposes of this report, match success is defined as a match to the specialty of the applicant’s first-ranked program because that is assumed to be the specialty of choice. Because preliminary programs provide only one or two years of prerequisite training for entry into advanced specialty training, applicants who ranked a preliminary program first are considered not to have a preferred specialty. Lack of match success includes matching to another specialty as well as failure to match at all. "
this is especially important because many caribs get a few interviews in more competitive specialties, rank them first on their ROL, but end up in IM or FM.
Ross' match rate for first time applicants in 2014 was 86% with 800+ matches (I am a recent Ross grad and this is the number the Dean told us, and I trust it by the way), and yes it includes prelims and no it doesn't include all the people who failed out along the way.
Either way, the negativity being thrown around about caribbean schools is this thread, largely by people who I would suspect really have no idea what they are talking about, is pretty silly. Whether or not to go to a caribbean school is a good or bad decision depending on each individual person and the circumstances that brought them to that point.
Are they for profit schools? Yes. Do they accept some people who shouldn't be in medicine? Yes. Does a minority of people finish and then have trouble matching and are in crushing debt? Yes.
All of this is true but I think you are all largely missing the point. Caribbean schools give people an opportunity to prove themselves, which is non-existent in the US medical education system.
And if you go to the caribbean, you should do your research and know that anything other than IM, FM, psych, or peds is getting extremely difficult. I really have no sympathy for people like the guy whose wife is blogging about not being able to match in general surgery. He should have known that by going to the caribbean you are largely cutting yourself off from many specialties, even if you are a stellar student and get good step scores. I knew this before starting at Ross and I didn't have any special inside information.
Plenty of plastic surgeons (not saying that you are) prey on (mostly) women wanting to enhance their physical appearance when its their mindset on their appearance that needs to be enhanced. This tab can easily top 6 figures and carries other risks.
People are willing to take that chance because they believe they can make it. That's a choice they've made. I would also clarify that it's not just a lack of maturity. Are there some people who are immature? Sure. There are plenty of people who are older and are pursuing a life long goal or dream.
There are a limited number of US Schools. This number hasn't changed significantly enough to keep up with the number of match spots or needed physicians.. Even from that Match data you posted, it seems that a very large % of those who match come from outside countries. Why not go to a school which is closer to the US and has rotations here? Sure people could go to India, Poland, Etc...
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faulting the schools and not faulting the kids is the most hilarious thing I've read on the internet. that's like saying it's the bars fault a dude drank a bunch of beers, got a DUI and lost his job. yeah no
For 2014 there were 25,867 total matches. Of those, 16,399 were filled by US Seniors. That's less than 2/3's being filled by US medical schools. Seems to suggest there are a need for IMGs/FMGs.
And yes, there is a significant doctor shortage.
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Brb having a nervous breakdown over the number of times the M word has been said in here today :/
That would influence the need for these Caribbean schools over time. If very few spots are getting filled by IMGs or FMGs, then those become significantly less viable options.
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Well again, a more careful reading of the data I think shows a different overall picture of the situation.
Yes the match "failure" stats do show that the majority of those 2,600 did very poorly. It also shows that the mean years since graduation for that group is 5.7 years. This means that these numbers are being dominated not by applicants from the most recent year's graduating class, but by the horrible applicants from the last 10 years that are still applying every year. Between those people and the people mentioned above who end up matching in specialties that are not their "preferred" specialty, I think you are way overestimating the number of NEW caribbean grads that don't match every year.
Look, I am not arguing that there is not a certain degree of shadiness that comes along with a caribbean medical education. I just finished living through it for the last 4 years and it is far from perfect.
That said, it is not as horrible, corrupt, and hopeless as people in this thread are making it out to be. It gives thousands of worthy people every year the opportunity to apply for and match into residency spots in the US.
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I don't get the numbers.
100% of my facebook friends who went to the Caribbean turned out fine (matched IM residencies in NY) or are doing fine (passed STEP 1). They went to Ross, AUC, and SGU. These are people from a UC undergrad, if that matters at all.
I'm starting to believe they are a valid option. I think the people who fail out are like people who barely graduated low tier colleges or something.
100% of my facebook friends who went to the Caribbean turned out fine (matched IM residencies in NY) or are doing fine (passed STEP 1). They went to Ross, AUC, and SGU. These are people from a UC undergrad, if that matters at all.
I'm starting to believe they are a valid option. I think the people who fail out are like people who barely graduated low tier colleges or something.
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Again, it is worth noting that an US school that had stats like these for match would closed by their accrediting bodies. And the Lotto gives worthy people a chance to become millionaires...but it's not a wise investment strategy either.
Sample size?
100% of my facebook friends who went to the Caribbean turned out fine (matched IM residencies in NY) or are doing fine (passed STEP 1). They went to Ross, AUC, and SGU. These are people from a UC undergrad, if that matters at all.
Sample size?
100% of my facebook friends who went to the Caribbean turned out fine (matched IM residencies in NY) or are doing fine (passed STEP 1). They went to Ross, AUC, and SGU. These are people from a UC undergrad, if that matters at all.
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Not very big. Three who graduated recently and three who are currently in school. They all were horrible students in undergrad to be quite frank and I can't possibly imagine them operating on my kid, which I won't have to worry about since the three matched IM.
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Exactly. I really wish I could have convinced him otherwise but I guess he really needed something to believe in that badly..
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Well again, as I explained before those match numbers DO NOT correspond to first time match rates (i.e. recent grads who are applying to the match for the first time)
Ross had a first time match rate of 86% last year. The US Allopathic rate last year was 94%, which is not such a huge difference.
And comparing the odds of matching from a caribbean school to the odds of winning the lottery is ridiculous and only makes you look like you are uniformed and have no idea what you are talking about
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They can certainly do damage prescribing pills...
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c'mon now.
I don't think thats a controversial statement. I think US allopathic medical school spots go to, deservedly so, people who have shown that they are able to excel in classroom situations, standardized tests, etc. And I think that is a great thing, exactly how it should be.
There are not many, if any, spots for people who have not excelled in one of those major areas. That is what the caribbean provides, a place where people who are deficient (in med school application terms) in one of those areas can go to show that they are in fact capable.
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