When does Putin turn off our lights?

[Doctodd]

there was a NATO no fly zone over previous areas similar to this. Why not now? It's the first step. This should be a conventional war. No nukes.

Regarding would i fight or run if someone was invading my country, i would definitley fight. See Red Dawn.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

we have established relationships that we need to honor.

the threat of force doesnt work if it is used willy nilly, and the rest of the world will come to view us as the true bully.

I think it's safe to say that other than Russia, Belarus, Eritrea, North Korea, and Syria (and possibly China and Pakistan) no one in this world would view us or NATO as the true bully if we tried to stop Russia. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but nearly everyone, probably even many Russians, would root for our success.

I know that even you don't believe your post.

 

[cowboydoc]

i think you are right. ukraine will be flattened.

1 mil refugees so far. expect to see another 2 or 3. it is easier to leave now than it was in 1941. and the cities may have little allure to return whenever this thing is over. hopefully the countryside will be spared.

as far as casualties? i dont even want to think about it.

legit question: if you were in the ukraine right now, would you stay and fight, or would you leave?

As a physician with means, I may get the family out and go elsewhere if I saw a feasible option to have a "normal" existence. That said, I have no desire to survive to see a post-apocalyptic world. If I didn't have a solid escape plan, I'd be sniping at the convoy and going down in a blaze of glory.

 

[MitchLevi]

there was a NATO no fly zone over previous areas similar to this. Why not now? It's the first step. This should be a conventional war. No nukes.

Regarding would i fight or run if someone was invading my country, i would definitley fight. See Red Dawn.

NATO enforcing a no fly zone opens this up to a broad and horrific geopolitical mess 10x bigger than what it currently is...

The West is going to sacrifice Ukraine, and in the process save tens, if not hundreds of millions of lives.

Russia loses the long game BTW. They're isolated and their economic collapse will be swift.

Russians will beat Russia, NATO will not.

 

[hyperalgesia]

legit question: if you were in the ukraine right now, would you stay and fight, or would you leave?

Since I have no kids or other liabilities, the only reason I would leave is to execute a master plan of some kind. There's nothing I would rather do than die for a cause I believe in. But I don't want to throw myself under a tank if it won't help anyone at all, or worse, is misguided.

 

[Baron Samedi]

Physicians

For anyone willing to fight for their country...

 

[Pain Applicant1]

NATO enforcing a no fly zone opens this up to a broad and horrific geopolitical mess 10x bigger than what it currently is...

The West is going to sacrifice Ukraine, and in the process save tens, if not hundreds of millions of lives.

Russia loses the long game BTW. They're isolated and their economic collapse will be swift.

Russians will beat Russia, NATO will not.

What if this were the 1940s? Would it be worth it to save people from the Holocaust or sacrifice them to save millions of lives?

Is there a chance that if Putin felt the world would respond militarily to this invasion that he would back out?

I'm not saying I know the answers to this but something to think about.

 

[MitchLevi]

What if this were the 1940s? Would it be worth it to save people from the Holocaust or sacrifice them to save millions of lives?

Is there a chance that if Putin felt the world would respond militarily to this invasion that he would back out?

I'm not saying I know the answers to this but something to think about.

Putin has no option to pull back.

He legitimately cannot stop this unless he has significant gains allowing him to save face. If he pulls back now with nothing to show for the West's complete decimation of Russian currency and what looks like a soon to be North Korea level of isolation, he would be assassinated by any one of his billionaire friends who've lost access to their money and no longer wield any influence whatsoever outside of Russia.

Russian billionaires have dudes on their payroll. All of them. You don't get a $B in Russia the same way you do in NYC or Chicago.

When Chechens begin publically executing Ukrainian officials, we will all watch helplessly and we'll die a thousand deaths every time a man is beheaded in front of his family.

...and not a damn thing will happen.

Maybe the Ukrainians delay their eventual slaughter long enough for Russian banks to start collapsing and regular Russians begin rioting once their checks don't cash or they can't spend money anywhere.

Putin would have to bring some of his boys home to quell those riots.

If Ukraine had the ability to hit that convoy (they would have done it already), it would strike a major blow to the Russian war effort.

Edit - Ukrainians have killed several high level dudes. They just wacked a Major General of the 7th Airborne Brigade 2 hrs ago, and several days ago killed the Chechen General.

Two real world hitters right there.

There are Ukrainians coming out of the woodwork without any clearly designated lines of advance, and there are Ukrainians who have no fear of approaching Russian troops.

This was a sniper who hit him while he was speaking to his men.

 

[Agast]

This is a fascinating Twitter thread, essentially discussing the role of Russian truck maintenance and equipment failure.

 

[powermd]

There are so many ways of slicing and dicing this situation and the more I read, the more I realize how little I know or understand.

My understanding of Biden's intent was that he 1) wanted to avoid an open "shooting war" with Russia because who knows where that ends, and 2) thought it was more beneficial to lay bare Russia's plans with no confounding from US involvement. The desired result being what we see now, the majority of the world united and willing to turn Russia in to North Korea. I think Biden's advisers were split on whether or not the threat of sanctions would actually deter this.

Having said all that... it seems the Biden administration saw what was happening months in advance, and could have approached this more aggressively. What do you think the result would have been if, instead of threatening sanctions, Biden and allies gradually built up "peacekeeping" forces in Ukraine, matching Russia's buildup? Thus putting Russia in the position of having to shoot first at NATO, or back down? The carrot being a staged withdrawal of both forces. Putin could have 'saved face' in some capacity and choose to fight another day.

Also, if NATO were to create a no fly zone in Ukraine that involved shooting down Russian aircraft, would Putin really go nuclear? There's no unringing that bell, so I still doubt he'd do it. There's too much to lose on all sides. It seems there's way more value in the threat than the action.

 

[Ducttape]

Putin had decided long before that he wanted to invade Ukraine. hence "annexing" Donbas, Luhansk and Crimea in 2014.


i doubt anything would have stopped him.

and my guess is if Biden had taken those aggressive actions, putin would have invaded even earlier, before things got set up. in fact, these same peacekeeping forces would have been the pretense for an earlier invasion.

 

[MitchLevi]

There are so many ways of slicing and dicing this situation and the more I read, the more I realize how little I know or understand.

My understanding of Biden's intent was that he 1) wanted to avoid an open "shooting war" with Russia because who knows where that ends, and 2) thought it was more beneficial to lay bare Russia's plans with no confounding from US involvement. The desired result being what we see now, the majority of the world united and willing to turn Russia in to North Korea. I think Biden's advisers were split on whether or not the threat of sanctions would actually deter this.

Having said all that... it seems the Biden administration saw what was happening months in advance, and could have approached this more aggressively. What do you think the result would have been if, instead of threatening sanctions, Biden and allies gradually built up "peacekeeping" forces in Ukraine, matching Russia's buildup? Thus putting Russia in the position of having to shoot first at NATO, or back down? The carrot being a staged withdrawal of both forces. Putin could have 'saved face' in some capacity and choose to fight another day.

Also, if NATO were to create a no fly zone in Ukraine that involved shooting down Russian aircraft, would Putin really go nuclear? There's no unringing that bell, so I still doubt he'd do it. There's too much to lose on all sides. It seems there's way more value in the threat than the action.

Putin and China both knew the West would not, and could not do anything about this.

Russia did not move until China was comfortable with it. At their request the invasion occurred after the Olympics.

Inflation is extremely high, highest debt in history, supply chains have been destroyed bc of COVID. We blundered our Afghan withdrawal. We are reliant on others for oil bc we refuse to drill on public land and closed Keystone.

We cannot do anything about this, and should we try, both China and Russia will wreck us in the cyber world considering we lag there significantly.

Social media being the front lines in 2022.

The West kicked Russia out of SWIFT, but that doesn't do anything about the fact they're partnered with China whose got its own system that is rapidly expanding and aimed at destroying the dollar.

Only 46% of trade between China and Russia occurred via US dollar end 1st Q 2020. It was 90% 5 yrs prior.

COVID lockdowns resulted in starvation in 3rd world countries.

Wheat is important, and together the Ukraine and Russia produce more than a 1/4th of the world's wheat.

Russia is the largest exporter of fertilizer in the world. Crops die with out it, and keeping the 3rd world fed depends on fertilizer. Sorry California, not everyone can eat organic.

Add the Russian oil domination and this doesn't look good long term for the West.

We are in trouble, and much of the reason is bc we chose to hurt ourselves with some of the policies we've adopted.

Our not being energy independent is a crippling, self-inflicted blow that will take a herculean effort to turn around...Our empty suit in the WH can't open that back up. He cannot and will not.

Series of weak leaders. That's our problem. The last guy truly qualified to deal with this didn't win reelection bc of Ross Perot.

 

[Doctodd]

There’s a story floating around that 200 planes(f15, f16, a10’s) that are planned to be mothballed could have been offered to Ukraine and deterred an invasion, but the White House refused.

I’m not war expert, but drones could be used so that no NATO or American forces are on the ground. Ukraine is not Russian territory…yet.

 

[SSdoc33]

Putin and China both knew the West would not, and could not do anything about this.

Russia did not move until China was comfortable with it. At their request the invasion occurred after the Olympics.

Inflation is extremely high, highest debt in history, supply chains have been destroyed bc of COVID. We blundered our Afghan withdrawal. We are reliant on others for oil bc we refuse to drill on public land and closed Keystone.

We cannot do anything about this, and should we try, both China and Russia will wreck us in the cyber world considering we lag there significantly.

Social media being the front lines in 2022.

The West kicked Russia out of SWIFT, but that doesn't do anything about the fact they're partnered with China whose got its own system that is rapidly expanding and aimed at destroying the dollar.

Only 46% of trade between China and Russia occurred via US dollar end 1st Q 2020. It was 90% 5 yrs prior.

COVID lockdowns resulted in starvation in 3rd world countries.

Wheat is important, and together the Ukraine and Russia produce more than a 1/4th of the world's wheat.

Russia is the largest exporter of fertilizer in the world. Crops die with out it, and keeping the 3rd world fed depends on fertilizer. Sorry California, not everyone can eat organic.

Add the Russian oil domination and this doesn't look good long term for the West.

We are in trouble, and much of the reason is bc we chose to hurt ourselves with some of the policies we've adopted.

Our not being energy independent is a crippling, self-inflicted blow that will take a herculean effort to turn around...Our empty suit in the WH can't open that back up. He cannot and will not.

Series of weak leaders. That's our problem. The last guy truly qualified to deal with this didn't win reelection bc of Ross Perot.

the economic picture you paint is overly bleak and inaccurate.

russia has the 11th largest economy in the world. ours is greater by about 9X. we really dont need russian oil. its laughable that some say that if we only had the keystone XL pipeline, then there wouldnt be a war. gimme a break.

i understand that high energy prices are not good for the economy. you know what? good. paying more for gas will lessen our dependence on it and our kids might actually have a world to live in.

BTW, we produce more oil than russia, so i dont know what you are talking re: "russian oil domination"

also, im not sure why you think russia and china have better hackers than we do. we have them, we are just not complete A-holes about it or we havent heard about american cyber warfare as much

 

[deleted1114045]

Putin and China both knew the West would not, and could not do anything about this.

Russia did not move until China was comfortable with it. At their request the invasion occurred after the Olympics.

Inflation is extremely high, highest debt in history, supply chains have been destroyed bc of COVID. We blundered our Afghan withdrawal. We are reliant on others for oil bc we refuse to drill on public land and closed Keystone.

We cannot do anything about this, and should we try, both China and Russia will wreck us in the cyber world considering we lag there significantly.

Social media being the front lines in 2022.

The West kicked Russia out of SWIFT, but that doesn't do anything about the fact they're partnered with China whose got its own system that is rapidly expanding and aimed at destroying the dollar.

Only 46% of trade between China and Russia occurred via US dollar end 1st Q 2020. It was 90% 5 yrs prior.

COVID lockdowns resulted in starvation in 3rd world countries.

Wheat is important, and together the Ukraine and Russia produce more than a 1/4th of the world's wheat.

Russia is the largest exporter of fertilizer in the world. Crops die with out it, and keeping the 3rd world fed depends on fertilizer. Sorry California, not everyone can eat organic.

Add the Russian oil domination and this doesn't look good long term for the West.

We are in trouble, and much of the reason is bc we chose to hurt ourselves with some of the policies we've adopted.

Our not being energy independent is a crippling, self-inflicted blow that will take a herculean effort to turn around...Our empty suit in the WH can't open that back up. He cannot and will not.

Series of weak leaders. That's our problem. The last guy truly qualified to deal with this didn't win reelection bc of Ross Perot.

Our sanctions will hurt Russia in the short term. However, their goal is economic independence from the west. For the first time in their history, they have a rising global superpower who is friendly to their east. Between China and India, Russia could easily establish a much more robust economic sphere than what it had when trading with the west. Once these three Titans forge their alliance, establish supply lines, and build an Asian empire, the Economic system of the west would suffer greatly. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t impose sanctions, but Russia knew we would do that. We’ve been imposing economic sanctions for 70 years on them.

 

[Ducttape]

Press Briefing by Press Secretary Jen Psaki, March 3rd, 2022 | The White House

James S. Brady Press Briefing Room 1:19 P.M. EST MS. PSAKI: Hi, everyone. Q Hi. MS. PSAKI: It’s so nice to see everybody’s beautiful faces. You too, Steve Holland. David Sanger. (Laughter.) Just calling out some especially beautiful faces in the room. Yes. Handsome devils...

www.whitehouse.gov

Q We also know, you know, the President, as recently as yesterday, talked about increasing domestic manufacturing to bring down prices on inflated items like goods. So why not apply the same logic to energy and increase domestic production here?

MS. PSAKI: Well, there are 9,000 approved oil leases that the oil companies are not tapping into currently. So I would ask them that question.

Q Is there nothing that the administration can do to get those providers back to pre-pandemic levels?

MS. PSAKI: Do you think the oil companies don’t have enough money to drill on the places that have been pre-approved?

Q Just asking.

MS. PSAKI: I would — I would point that question to them. And we can talk about it more tomorrow when you learn more.

Q Do you think that opening the Keystone Pipeline and having more energy-friendly policies might do that?

MS. PSAKI: The Keystone Pipeline has never been operational. It would take years for that to have any impact. I know a number of members of Congress have suggested that, but that is a proposed solution that has no relationship or would have no impact on what the problem is we, here, all agree is an issue.

its about money. oil companies are happy to be making so much money per barrel.
---

China is in a tough spot. forging an alliance with the #11 economy could reduce their relationships with other stronger economies - ie #1, 3, 4, etc. (India is #6, which Russia already has something of an alliance with India)

in the long run, it is not in China's best interest to isolate themselves in that manner.

 

[Dr. Ice]

I think Indias relationship with Russia has historically been one of military support to deal with Chinese/Pakistan aggression. In the last several years, India has purchased much more American artillery and equipment than before. They are somewhat still reliant on certain Russian exports for agriculture however.

 

[MitchLevi]

the economic picture you paint is overly bleak and inaccurate.

russia has the 11th largest economy in the world. ours is greater by about 9X. we really dont need russian oil. its laughable that some saw that if we only had the keystone XL pipeline, then there wouldnt be a war. gimme a break.

i understand that high energy prices are not good for the economy. you know what? good. paying more for gas will lessen our dependence on it and our kids might actually have a world to live in.

BTW, we produce more oil than russia, so i dont know what you are talking re: "russian oil domination"

also, im not sure why you think russia and china have better hackers than we do. we have them, we are just not complete A-holes about it or we havent heard about american cyber warfare as much

Europe is dependent on Russia for oil. To say otherwise is ignorant.

Their domination of European oil matters significantly.

27% of crude oil, 47% solid fuel which is mostly coal and 41% of natural gas to EU comes from Russia.

Sanctioning Russia drives up the cost of EU's fuel, which punishes those countries and makes it harder to keep the pressure on Russian gas and oil companies.

How long after EU is paying 3x for fuel do they give in and start lifting sanctions?

Punishing Russia with sanctions hurts civilians in every EU nation and Russian citizens who have nothing to do with this.

Your statement about our paying more for gas is absurd...That is the height of American arrogance.

The vast majority of the world is desperate for oil TO SURVIVE.

Digging wells, electricity, critical travel, building infrastructure and housing, etc. You cannot emerge from 3rd world status without oil and fossil fuels.

Crippling our economy is the only outcome of expensive gas. The global supply chain is already hurting...?...

No one but you said anything about Keystone being open and that preventing war. You said that, not me.

If Russian and Chinese cyber assets attacked critical American infrastructure, they would be able to cause huge amounts of problems.

I am fully aware the US as a stand alone nation has more cyber assets than China OR Russia, but we have weaknesses in our systems at certain points. Classic cyber attacks were IT in nature, now they're going after operational technology like the Houston Port hack.

China and Russia together would cause tremendous trouble for us, especially when you look at their social media influence.

 

[MitchLevi]

I wonder what happens when China invades Taiwan.

 

[Ducttape]

Europe is dependent on Russia for oil. To say otherwise is ignorant.

Their domination of European oil matters significantly.

27% of crude oil, 47% solid fuel which is mostly coal and 41% of natural gas to EU comes from Russia.

Sanctioning Russia drives up the cost of EU's fuel, which punishes those countries and makes it harder to keep the pressure on Russian gas and oil companies.

How long after EU is paying 3x for fuel do they give in and start lifting sanctions?

Punishing Russia with sanctions hurts civilians in every EU nation and Russian citizens who have nothing to do with this.

Your statement about our paying more for gas is absurd...That is the height of American arrogance.

The vast majority of the world is desperate for oil TO SURVIVE.

Digging wells, electricity, critical travel, building infrastructure and housing, etc. You cannot emerge from 3rd world status without oil and fossil fuels.

Crippling our economy is the only outcome of expensive gas. The global supply chain is already hurting...?...

No one but you said anything about Keystone being open and that preventing war. You said that, not me.

If Russian and Chinese cyber assets attacked critical American infrastructure, they would be able to cause huge amounts of problems.

I am fully aware the US as a stand alone nation has more cyber assets than China OR Russia, but we have weaknesses in our systems at certain points. Classic cyber attacks were IT in nature, now they're going after operational technology like the Houston Port hack.

China and Russia together would cause tremendous trouble for us, especially when you look at their social media influence.

germany is definitely dependent but europe has known for a while that they need to move to reusable energy sources. there will be suffering but it might be beneficial in the long run.

fyi, Russian oil has not been sanctioned by US.

only 1% of the oil imported to the US and 7% of the natural gas imported to the US is from Russia.


what is your reasoning that russian and chinese assets would attack American infrastructure outside of what they are doing now? that would make matters worse.


you should note that china has taken a specific neutral stance. china has no interest in becoming embroiled with the US in a cyber or physical war.

china will not invade taiwan... yet. Xi will definitely wait until he is reelected, which is October of this year.

 

[MitchLevi]

germany is definitely dependent but europe has known for a while that they need to move to reusable energy sources. there will be suffering but it might be beneficial in the long run.

fyi, Russian oil has not been sanctioned by US.

only 1% of the oil imported to the US and 7% of the natural gas imported to the US is from Russia.


what is your reasoning that russian and chinese assets would attack American infrastructure outside of what they are doing now? that would make matters worse.


you should note that china has taken a specific neutral stance. china has no interest in becoming embroiled with the US in a cyber or physical war.

china will not invade taiwan... yet. Xi will definitely wait until he is reelected, which is October of this year.

I don't think China will do anything right now, but I do think they will invade Taiwan at some point. When that happens I have no idea how we handle that bc there are no good options IMO.

We will probably just allow them to take Taiwan without doing anything to stop them.

China isn't neutral in this. They're abstaining from every vote and carrying forward all business interests with Russia.

That is not neutral considering the facts we all know to be true - We're watching one nation topple another nation's democratically-elected leadership while simultaneously threatening journalists with fines and imprisonment if they report on the story as anything other than a "special military operation."

Abstaining is not neutral.

I've never said nor inferred the US is reliant on Russia for oil or gas. EU certainly is however, and that matters considering the EU hurts itself by hurting Russia.

The price of energy will be high for awhile bc of how reliant they are on Russian fuels. It could chip away at the EU's resolve if energy costs triple.

It doesn't take a genius to turn on CNN or Fox and see the potential problems one country may have if they get all their fuel from someone else. I wish we were energy independent for that reason.

Cyber comment was made bc there's a clear road map to a conflict between the East and West staring us in the face, and TBH it started awhile ago.

Russian and Chinese cyber attacks have already happened.

There's a very good chance these two nations align very closely and work towards the destruction of the dollar.

SWIFT keeps the dollar strong. CIPS (Chinese version) and SPFS (Russian) are both smaller than SWIFT today, but they're growing and CIPS could definitely weaken the dollar.

That's the Russian and Chinese goal over the long haul - Weaken and destroy the dollar.

CIPS transactions increased 75% from 2020 to 2021!

Russia has been trying for decades to do that, and while they're annoying AF they don't really threaten or compete with us directly...After all this time.

China has only been on the world stage since Clinton, and in the next 15 yrs may surpass us.

 

[Agast]

I wonder what happens when China invades Taiwan.

Taiwan can threaten to blow up their chip manufacturing plants and then we’re all screwed

Taiwan should adopt a “broken nest” policy and destroy TSMC in wake of any Chinese invasion, suggests US military paper

Destroying the world’s major semiconductor market might be more of an invasion deterrent than actual open conflict, military paper suggests

www.datacenterdynamics.com

 

[MitchLevi]

Pretty sure every fortune cookie ever eaten in America was made in Taiwan. Can't live without those.




...seriously.

 

[SSdoc33]

mitch, join the physicians forum. there are similar threads discussing these topics. including cheerleaders for keystone XL.

finally, don't get into a pissing match with doctodd. he has a black belt in trolling

 

[MitchLevi]

mitch, join the physicians forum. there are similar threads discussing these topics. including cheerleaders for keystone XL.

finally, don't get into a pissing match with doctodd. he has a black belt in trolling

Can't

 

[Agast]

Can't

Cuz you’ve been banned before ?

 

[bedrock]

Can't

You previously claimed to be a practicing pain physician for many years. That’s almost the only criteria to join the physicians forum.

That is why I previously assumed you were a resident or fellow.

 

[MitchLevi]

I was a member of that forum and got banned.

 

[Agast]

I was a member of that forum and got banned.

.

 

[MitchLevi]

.

Yep. Somme.

Got pulled into the Capitol riot debates and got banned.

 

[Agast]

Yep. Somme.

Got pulled into the Capitol riot debates and got banned.

Well, FWIW I thought the ban was an overreaction

 

[hyperalgesia]

Agast was dancing on your grave lol

 

[Agast]

Agast was dancing on your grave lol

Hah. There’s only one person who deserves a swift kick in the boot and he’ll cling forever like a dingleberry

 

[MitchLevi]

We don't need to rehash it.

 

[Doctodd]

Psaki, the WH press secretary, said this week that Russia supplies 10% of our oil/energy. That’s 10% too much.

 

[hyperalgesia]

Psaki, the WH press secretary, said this week that Russia supplies 10% of our oil/energy. That’s 10% too much.

This is one of those times when the sweet idealism of the "squad" emerges from its safe space and touches reality for the first time.

Which is more important, the "green new deal" or democracy and freedom in Ukraine?

 

[Baron Samedi]

This is one of those times when the sweet idealism of the "squad" emerges from its safe space and touches reality for the first time.

Which is more important, the "green new deal" or democracy and freedom in Ukraine?

What if we had stopped relying so much on oil like scientific consensus warned us about years ago? 🤔

 

[Doctodd]

What if we had stopped relying so much on oil like scientific consensus warned us about years ago? 🤔

It wasn’t possible….until Elon Musk.

 

[Baron Samedi]

It wasn’t possible….until Elon Musk.

Elimination of oil dependency obviously hasn't been possible, but the call to reduce plastics and other oil-heavy fields has gone unanswered for decades.

I do recall a previous administration ending tax incentives for electric vehicles and solar panels as well.

I am encouraged that the price gap between EVs and combustion vehicles is closing and now total cost of ownership is favoring EVs for the first time.

 

[MitchLevi]

We're nowhere close to being able to switch over en masse to EV, and if every car on the road was an EV it would require a tremendous amount of mining which is itself very gross and environmentally unfriendly.

What happens when a grid goes out or storms wreck local power lines and you can't charge your vehicle?

I drive a Hybrid Accord and it kills it in the summer at mid-high 40s MPG, and winter it is high 30s MPG. I still put gas in it, and don't charge it. I like hybrid bc I'm protected against electrical issues and my gas mileage is insane. I wish more cars were hybrid.

I'm all about renewable energy, and while we're trending in the right direction there's no situation I can imagine where IC engines go away.

The developing world needs fossil fuels, and their situation is life and death. The environment overall benefits from more EV on the road, but the number of ppl in the developing world outnumbers the number of ppl in the developed world, and to those billions of humans living in uncomfortable situations - Gas is essential.

BTW, I'm an ocean plastic fanatic. I'm sure most of you know about the Great Pacific Garbage Patch. There is currently a plastic resolution moving into adoption in the UN as we speak. Hopefully we can make a dent into this issue, but I fear significant results require significant money and no one will probably do that.

 

[Baron Samedi]

I do agree-- we aren't at the point where EVs can completely replace IC cars but thrilled to see the progress. I also drive a hybrid(also an Accord and love it). Really wanted an EV but charging stations just aren't plentiful enough yet to make it practical. Hoping my next vehicle(2-3 years from now) will be one if the progress continues.

 

[MitchLevi]

I do agree-- we aren't at the point where EVs can completely replace IC cars but thrilled to see the progress. I also drive a hybrid(also an Accord and love it). Really wanted an EV but charging stations just aren't plentiful enough yet to make it practical. Hoping my next vehicle(2-3 years from now) will be one if the progress continues.

I really want a Tesla truck, and I'd like the trimotor version with all the bells and whistles on it but I know a few ppl who drive Tesla and I'm sketched out by some aspects of Tesla ownership.

Obviously the charging issue. I would install a charger at home, but I'm in many ways an impulsive and spontaneous person. I frequently want to just take off for the weekend.

Definitely possible in a Tesla, but it IS without Q more difficult and time consuming.

Recharging stations aren't numerous enough (like you said) and they don't charge your entire battery in 90 sec like a gas pump.

If there is a storm or natural disaster your Tesla is irrelevant.

 

[hyperalgesia]

What if we had stopped relying so much on oil like scientific consensus warned us about years ago? 🤔

We couldn't/can't afford to abandon oil and still defend our values throughout the world. We have to decide between these choices.

 

[Baron Samedi]

We couldn't/can't afford to abandon oil and still defend our values throughout the world. We have to decide between these choices.

Thats not what I suggested and a bit of a strawman argument.

 

[bedrock]

As a centrist who sees both sides, i would say both extremes are wrong. We have to ensure energy independence from dictators and authoritarian regimes, but we have to keep the global economy functioning and preserve the planet.

We can't do what Germany/EU did, and let all the far left people influence policy so much that we lose sight of reality. We can't realistically ban all gas powered cars by 2030/2035 as did most of europe in the past few years, etc. You can't mandate certain mpg for cars, if the technology is not ready as Obama did. This just forced turbo cars on the entire world just to theoretically save 3-4mpg. BTW, turbo vehicles are actually not more fuel efficient than naturally aspirated (NA) cars, unless you drive like a senile grandma. Turbo cars are also very unreliable compared to NA cars, and the cost of ownership over 10 years is quite higher than NA cars.

Similarly, Germany decided to eliminate their current nuclear plants and encourage solar/wind farms etc, but their new green power is nowhere near enough to meet their energy needs and now they are reliant on Russian gas and oil and using more coal than before! This is what happens when government bends to left wing activists instead of scientific and economic facts.

The point is that it makes sense to invest in green technologies and offer modest but not crazy tax deductions for them. However, you also can't force technology to suddenly appear by a certain year, and all the hysteria about the end of world from Greta and other climate change fanatics is vastly overblown. That doesn't mean that global warming doesn't exist, but the world will not explode in 7 years unless we all start living in huts in mountains, as some would suggest.

Should the world try to decrease carbon emissions, yes. Should they depress their economies, greatly reduce the standard of living for their citizens by forcing expensive green solutions on them that aren't ready for widespread use, and mandate change by controlling peoples lives instead of offering incentives, no.

 

[bedrock]

Regarding cars. I'm a driving enthusiast, so I and many others do truly care about driving a car that is actually fun to drive.

From a standpoint of reducing vehicle emissions, hybrids do makes sense as they are easy for all to use and drive. They don't require much infrastructure change and they do decrease emissions. From a standpoint of driving enjoyment, they are not ideal because the dual nature of car makes for major compromises compared to a pure electric (BEV) vs a pure NA car. Hybrids are relatively slow, much heavier, louder, have more mechanical issues, and are more expensive to fix than an NA car. That said, for someones only car a hybrid makes sense and they are a good car for the masses. So hybrids are a good car for college students, young adults, and developing countries without infrastructure.

However, if you have enough money to afford more than one vehicle (as most people do in the developed world), then I would argue that it makes more sense to own a BEV to use as a daily driver for 90% of your driving (all your daily driving) and to then own an NA or turbo car for everything else including long trips. This way you help save the planet, save money, reduce dependence on middle eastern and russian old, but you don't frustrate yourself with the limitations of a BEV.

For the past three years, I've used a Tesla model 3 performance as my daily driver. I charge it at home 95% of the time, for a cost that is about a third of the cost of gas. No mechanic costs, either as there is almost nothing to break compared to an ICE car. However, I have a second car which is a naturally aspirated Porsche GT3. She serves as my weekend fun car, track car, date night car, and long trip car. I once drove across 4 states with the Tesla and vowed never to do it again, as charging 4 times a day got really old as that took nearly 2 hours out of each day.

This contrasts with my convenient daily use of the Tesla, as I wake up each morning to full tank of electricity, no trips to the gas station, and with my Tesla I save a thousand dollars each year on gas/mechanical costs compared to an ICE car. My Tesla 3 Performance has 495 ft lbs of instant torque and is fun to drive (IN CONTRAST TO A HYBRID). Both my Tesla M3P and GT3 do 0-60 in 3.1 seconds or less, are a blast to drive, and can blow 99.9% of cars off the road.

I'm a track enthusiast, and so obviously a GT3 makes sense for me more than most people.
However, I would argue that a moderate priced (and sized) sedan/hatchback BEV daily driver coupled with an ICE vehicle such as a truck/SUV/Jeep/sports car, etc, is the best approach for most middle class or higher income people in the developed world. This garage arrangement balances both economics and decreasing carbon emissions as well as fun and practicality.

You don't waste hours of your time charging on long road trips, compromise towing ability (current BEVs have minimal towing range), or lose capability to carry a decent load of passengers/gear, etc. on a trip, but for 90% of your daily driving miles and short trips, you are decreasing emissions by an average of 60%, saving money/time on gas/mechanics, and enjoying instant torque/commuter lane access. It's about balance.

 

[MitchLevi]

Great points Bedrock. I'm not a car guy, but I understand the appeal of cars.

Getting back on topic, no one has mentioned anything about Ukraine in 1994. They gave up their nukes and signed an agreement with us, UK, Northern Ireland, Russia, Belarus and maybe a few others.

The agreement is written generally, but the underlying premise was giving up nukes won't leave you helpless bc we will protect you under certain circumstances.

Few countries had a worse 20th century than Ukraine. A lot happened there that I was completely unaware of until recently, and that century reads like a horror story for those ppl.

Some ppl would argue the West lead Ukraine to its slaughter.

I wish Bush Sr were here...

Encyclopedia geopolitica puts out great reading lists each yr. Yall may want to check it out.

I'm a typical American like most of you, and the Ukraine Russia story is far from over. They've been fighting for 8 yrs, something most Westerners do not know.

Edit - Visa and Mastercard are now blocking Russian transactions. That's so incredibly wild to me.

How many angry billionaires does it take to successfully remove Putin from power? We may find out...

 

[Pain Applicant1]

Yep. Somme.

Got pulled into the Capitol riot debates and got banned.

I wish they wouldn't do that. It'd be nice if more people would post and not less. I enjoy reading what other people have to say. I hope more people lurking on this site would give their opinions.

On another note, I learned how to make memes for the modern-day braveheart.

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[hyperalgesia]

Edit - Visa and Mastercard are now blocking Russian transactions. That's so incredibly wild to me.

How many angry billionaires does it take to successfully remove Putin from power? We may find out...

Apparently, for the moment, Visa and MC will still work internally but are blocked outside of Russia. It's still wild though. I'm not sure how effective it will be but if we can end world wars like this, it will be a major breakthrough.

 

[Agast]

I wish they wouldn't do that. It'd be nice if more people would post and not less. I enjoy reading what other people have to say. I hope more people lurking on this site would give their opinions.

On another note, I learned how to make memes for the modern-day braveheart.

View attachment 351419

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Bottom half of his face should be yellow…