What to do when spouse leaves you as a prelim?

[pillowhead]

Make assumptions all you want, strike low blows such as insulting my ability to support the family (in which case you are wrong) and you only prove yourself to be the mean spirited harpy like women that I would warn him about. I am not bitter , I have nothing to be bitter about - one marriage, 20 years. Lets see you do better (pretty safe bet you won't...I mean you can't). However I am also observant and although I have not had to endure it, have seen so many guys take such abuse from women. I know it makes women mad because it strikes so close to home. The reason there are enduring stereotypes is because they are often so accurate. Sure there are exceptions, like my wife, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I only make low blows when I am responding to the person who first made them. Like I said, don't dish it out if you can't take it.

Yeah, I haven't been married for twenty years. I would have had to be married pre-pubescently for that to happen. However, I have been happily married for three years to the first man that I ever dated. We both come from families whose parents have been married 30+ years. Who knew that women with career aspirations can still have pretty traditional values when it comes to marriage? It's not either/or you know. (Oh, and just to preempt any comments of him being a kept man or something stupid like that, he is currently getting a PhD while I do my MD. He finds intelligence attractive as probably many men and women do.)

And if it makes you feel better, you can insult my looks. I know that at 5'5", about 125lbs, long black hair, and of mixed european and middle eastern descent, I'm quite beautiful. And quite frankly, as long as my husband thinks so, I couldn't care less what some mysogynistic online poster thinks. I have a wonderful home life and a successful medical career in front of me. Insult me if it helps you feel better about yourself cause I'm feeling pretty good about my life right now!

(My apologies to the OP for the hijacking of this thread.)

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[dobonedoc]

Dear CALI-OB,

Lay off the crack, dude.

Sincerely Yours,
Concerned Medical Professional.

 

[sophiejane]

I know that you women probably want to be doctors so that you can be the "boss", prove how smart you are, be successful, make lots of money and be on a power trip - but if you reread many of my previous posts you will see that the reason I want to be an MD is because I have felt it a calling to be of service to my fellow man.

Right. Wow. I had no idea that not having a penis also strips you of any altruistic desires. All this time, I thought I was doing things to help others because it felt good to me and to them, but all along, it was just that I was on a power trip. I thought I wanted to do medicine because I was good at science and it was a rewarding and interesting career. Apparently it's just because I want to prove to the world how smart I am.

Good thing men never get on power trips or try to be the "boss", be successful, or make lots of money. Whew. What a screwed up world we'd have if that were the case.

Now, to get back on track, to the OP: I'm so sorry this is happening to you. I've been through a divorce and it was truly the lowest point of my life. I hope you are able to step back and consider all the possiblities without being too clouded by emotion. I think you know the truth, though, because you said it. The best thing you can do for your kids is to be happy yourself. If you choose not to pursue the specialty you worked so hard to get into and if you really feel it's the job that will make you happiest, make sure you give that plenty of weight in making your decisions about next year. Your kids will understand someday--maybe not now, but they will understand. Take care and best of luck.

 

[mig26x]

wow doowai, calm down!!! women becoming doctor because of a power trip? Im a guy and I dont believe that!!!

To the OP, the most important thing here are your kids!!!

 

[mgdsh]

OP: Really sorry your thread got hijacked and turned into something else. I know you must be shocked, hurt, and have a million unexplainable emotions right now. But you have to go on and finish your residency. I know this is a tough time (I've never been through anything similar myself), but you just have to go on with your career and do your best to spend as much time with your kids as you can. They'll see that you've taken the time and hard work into achieving your goals/dreams and hang out with them/be there for the important moments in their lives.

Not that it's easy right now, but you have to look at the brightside in all this. Personally if I was in your situation I'd rather know that my wife/spouse didn't care enough for me / my goals to deal with my lifestyle choice of being a medical professional. It's very hard for alot of people to deal with it. As long as you do your best to see that you make the effort to spend time with your kids and you and the kids mom don't fight in front of them, they will get through this just fine.

I know another poster mentioned something about gettting counseling or trying to work this out. I suppose you could, but if anything I think you'd just put more pressure on yourself in this situation. Your ex-wife has made her intentions clear that she wanted to be selfish. You will be the one making all the sacrifices either way. It's really best to make sure you accomplish your goals and set aside as much time as possible for the kids, and not the selfish ex-wife.

Hope that helps.


To everyone else:
It's definitely clear that divorce, among other things, are a huge problem in this country, and generalizing it isn't really gonna help the OP feel any better about it. I've never been married, but I can only imagine it must be one of the hardest things to go through.

 

[lost1]

My spouse is giving up quite a bit for my career, but we entered into this knowing that together. I don't think you can understand just how much you give up until you go through it. I have fought hard for the both of us and somehow have managed to save my marriage and family. We will go to counseling, especially during the adjust phase after the move. I think she is just frightened by the move and knowing that I'll be gone a lot is probably more scary in a city where we don't have anyone else to rely on. Things obviously aren't perfect, but I'm happy we're going to keep fighting for our family. I can only think that if we get through the next handful of years we will be very strong. I'm trying to be positive, so I won't bash my wife. We all have our shortcomings, some are just more of an inconvenience than others.

Dowaai, I think you listen to too much Tom Lykas. If your wife feels fulfilled and content being a servant, then there is nothing wrong with that. My wife takes her career seriously and doesn't want her life to be defined by my career any more than I do. I general I see this as a good thing although this has also created problems with the move. I am not concerned with my future earning and spousal support. Like I said, she has her own career and does not depend on me for income. She is not malicious and we both just want what's best for the kids.

I wish the best to anyone going through anything similar and thank you all for listening and giving your advice. SDNer's have seen me through the MCAT, interviews, med school, the Steps, more interviews and now residency. There are some truly genuine people on this forum.

Oh yeah, and if things still don't work out, I will continue my planned residency. I agree that going into a different residency may just compound any unhappiness.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Ughh....I feel dirty.

It appears I was helping the "enemy" during all the PM exchanges with Doowai about his predicament. Had I known about his misogynistic and wildly inaccurate ideas about women, let's just say I would be less inclined to be sympathetic to his plight and want to help.

 

[pillowhead]

My spouse is giving up quite a bit for my career, but we entered into this knowing that together. I don't think you can understand just how much you give up until you go through it. I have fought hard for the both of us and somehow have managed to save my marriage and family. We will go to counseling, especially during the adjust phase after the move. I think she is just frightened by the move and knowing that I'll be gone a lot is probably more scary in a city where we don't have anyone else to rely on. Things obviously aren't perfect, but I'm happy we're going to keep fighting for our family. I can only think that if we get through the next handful of years we will be very strong. I'm trying to be positive, so I won't bash my wife. We all have our shortcomings, some are just more of an inconvenience than others.

Dowaai, I think you listen to too much Tom Lykas. If your wife feels fulfilled and content being a servant, then there is nothing wrong with that. My wife takes her career seriously and doesn't want her life to be defined by my career any more than I do. I general I see this as a good thing although this has also created problems with the move. I am not concerned with my future earning and spousal support. Like I said, she has her own career and does not depend on me for income. She is not malicious and we both just want what's best for the kids.

I wish the best to anyone going through anything similar and thank you all for listening and giving your advice. SDNer's have seen me through the MCAT, interviews, med school, the Steps, more interviews and now residency. There are some truly genuine people on this forum.

Oh yeah, and if things still don't work out, I will continue my planned residency. I agree that going into a different residency may just compound any unhappiness.

Bravo to you for your maturity and willingness to work on your marriage. I think it anyone can salvage their marriage through a difficult time, it sounds like you can. Good luck to you and your family.

To K. Cox--I totally know what you mean. Blah, to think I felt so bad for this guy when reading his other posts and was really rooting for him.

 

[sophiejane]

We will go to counseling, especially during the adjust phase after the move. I think she is just frightened by the move and knowing that I'll be gone a lot is probably more scary in a city where we don't have anyone else to rely on. Things obviously aren't perfect, but I'm happy we're going to keep fighting for our family.

That's great news!!! What a nice way to start my day,check SDN, and see something really positive going on when you thought there was disaster.

Good for you. My ex-husband refused counseling and although I still think we would have split up, it would have been a comfort to me to know we both tried, rather than one throwing in the towel and the other left helpless to do anything about it.

I am now happily re-married, so I know it was the best thing for us to split, but if you can avoid it, especially with kids...well, it's just win-win.

I can only think that if we get through the next handful of years we will be very strong.

You will indeed. Travelling mercies to you and yours.

SJ

 

[sequela]

to the op:

wonderful news!!!!!! I am so happy for you and your family. Counseling will help i think...it's nice to have an objective person to reflect things back to you guys.


if it should end up that she can't tolerate the move, i don't think that has to mean divorce. i have met many residents and grad students who are apart from their spouses (and yes, some w kids) for the duration of their training. people do it all the time. it is challenging but it can be done.

godd luck to you.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

My spouse is giving up quite a bit for my career, but we entered into this knowing that together. I don't think you can understand just how much you give up until you go through it. I have fought hard for the both of us and somehow have managed to save my marriage and family. We will go to counseling, especially during the adjust phase after the move. I think she is just frightened by the move and knowing that I'll be gone a lot is probably more scary in a city where we don't have anyone else to rely on. Things obviously aren't perfect, but I'm happy we're going to keep fighting for our family. I can only think that if we get through the next handful of years we will be very strong. ...

This is good. I moved my wife & 2 kids across 4 states for residency. I think that going into it we totally underestimated the pain involved--but it was also a growing experience, as it was the first time for both of us moving, and we were forced to rely on each other and start fresh building relationships in a new community.

My wife started out really in the same place your wife is--leaving job, friends, family. In addition to the counseling, do whatever you can to help her make contacts in the new community. For example, I hardly ever went out to evening "wines & dines" with drug reps, because I needed to be home, either to be with the family, or to let her go to a meeting or girls night out, etc. You may find that where you're going has a "resident spouses" group or similar organization. That was one of her first contacts, but eventually she got deeper into other things: joining a church, having school-aged kids and getting involved at their school, eventually returning to work. Be prepared to make a sacrifice or two yourself to help that happen for her, and her happiness will rebound to you!

 

[Miami_med]

This situation sounds an awful lot like a woman who is scared to leave home for the first time. Did you go to school in her home town? Has she ever been away from home? If that's the reason, there has got to be a way to work everything out. If you have kids, you'll have to think long and hard about leaving. I don't think most medical students/residents really understand what that entails. I'd pick a different specialty for my kids any day.

 

[halodoctor]

Tough situation. Best wishes.

If you got your chosen field, press on. I wouldn't give up on the path you've chosen. Truth is, you'll be working so much, you'll feel like you live a million miles away, even if you are in the same town. I'm married, 3 kids. Feel like I never see them.

Instead, go to your program. Continue to love the kids. Make it clear you are their father. Strive with your spouse to have a civlized divorce. You're training will end, and you can choose to return to your home-town. Perhaps keeping the children close to extended family (yours and hers) will be a good thing. Finally, use your vacation time to visit them and keep your relationship strong.

If you choose a different specialty so you can stay close to the kids, you'll really get depressed. Long hours, divorce, and working in a field you don't enjoy: recipie for even more disaster.

why is everyone ganging up against doowai? no one is actually disputing his arguments in a logical fashion. all we are doing is name-calling. "i feel sorry for you." "i feel sorry for your wife." these statements have no place in a medical forum where we are supposed to exercise a little more humility. you don't feel sorry for him, you are making fun of him. you are getting satisfaction out of embarrassing him and siding with the group. what's that called in your fancy psychiatric dictionary?

i may not agree with doowai, but i don't make fun of his way of life. i may argue that he is extremely old-fashioned, and if this were causing problems in his family, then i would want to discuss the features of his traditionalism that are causing problems. however, i am fully willing to accept that the way he and his family are work for them.

is there a textbook of happiness? it is all to common for americans to set the world morals and standards.

STOP DOING THAT!

and honestly, stop pretending to know everything. i'm not providing any direction with this post, just pointing out what ticks me off most...

 

[sophiejane]

why is everyone ganging up against doowai?

I can only speak for myself, but when someone makes comments like the one I referred to in my previous post, it's difficult to sit on the sidelines and not speak up.

I don't care what he does in his own home. I do care that he assumes women become doctors because they are on a power trip or they are trying to show off "how smart they are." This is not someone who should EVER be a resident or a physician because he is going to have to work with female physicians and there is no way someone with that kind of thinking is going to be able to function effectively on a mixed-gender team.

 

[mgdsh]

why is everyone ganging up against doowai? no one is actually disputing his arguments in a logical fashion. all we are doing is name-calling. "i feel sorry for you." "i feel sorry for your wife." these statements have no place in a medical forum where we are supposed to exercise a little more humility. you don't feel sorry for him, you are making fun of him. you are getting satisfaction out of embarrassing him and siding with the group. what's that called in your fancy psychiatric dictionary?

i may not agree with doowai, but i don't make fun of his way of life. i may argue that he is extremely old-fashioned, and if this were causing problems in his family, then i would want to discuss the features of his traditionalism that are causing problems. however, i am fully willing to accept that the way he and his family are work for them.

is there a textbook of happiness? it is all to common for americans to set the world morals and standards.

STOP DOING THAT!

and honestly, stop pretending to know everything. i'm not providing any direction with this post, just pointing out what ticks me off most...

Personally I thought the comments saying thats why he didn't match were somewhat odd. If anything he didn't match because of his scores / where he went to school. I know students/residents/attendings who are far worst in what they say / how they think that went to US medical schools.

 

[sequela]

why is everyone ganging up against doowai? no one is actually disputing his arguments in a logical fashion.

are you serious? it is not possible to dispute an argument that is based on hard-wired mysogenist ideology.

you don't feel sorry for him, you are making fun of him. you are getting satisfaction out of embarrassing him and siding with the group.

what an astute observation.

is there a textbook of happiness?

and honestly, stop pretending to know everything. i'm not providing any direction with this post, just pointing out what ticks me off most...

if it upsets you then don't read it.

 

[sequela]

Personally I thought the comments saying thats why he didn't match were somewhat odd. If anything he didn't match because of his scores / where he went to school. I know students/residents/attendings who are far worst in what they say / how they think that went to US medical schools.

part of why he didn't match this year was that he pissed off a pd (read his prior posts...it's straight outta his mouth as part of the reason for not matching the second time around..he was blacklisted. the pd called other programs to tell them he was a 'bad seed'...read his posts). this point was brought up to reflect something about his personality and his ability to deal/relate with people.

point being, he likely has a caustic personality regardless of how he likes to think about himself.

reality testing. that's the point of bringing up the match.

 

[heech]

Congrats to the OP. One more cliche: what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I firmly believe that.

The biggest challenges in my relationship with my wife came at a similar obstacle... when we had to make decisions about our relative priorities: family versus career. It was very hard, and we were both close to walking away. But once we understand what the concerns were, once we found the same page, once we eliminated the root cause... so many small problems instantly disappeared, and we instantly found a new level of confidence in our lives together. I hope that counseling works out for you + wife, and that you'll look back at this episode and laugh in 25-50 years.

As far as doowei, there wasn't much to "logically debate". You can't really argue the claim that "women want to become doctors for the power trip". It's a fundamental difference in value systems.

 

[spreebee]

One of the things that I told my GF when I went into medicine is that I might end up in a city to do residency that neither of us like but that I would have to go. I told her that I wasnt gonna be denied my chance of training at X or Y program just because she didnt like the location.

I also told her if she loved me she would follow me. Im starting Internship in three months and we are going to be living together.

In other words, medicine takes alot out of a relationship, alot!!! To the original poster, go do your residency training but keep contact with your kids (telephone calls, remember all the birthdays and send presents, send cards or letters even if it's not a holiday), just keep in contact with them, they will remember you thought about them even if you werent there.

Good luck and wish you the best in this situation!!!

I'm starting medical school and my GF is staying at home for awhile and joining me after the first year...Currently, her mother is sick with cancer, and the father passed... I know people can say anything can happen but she's one of those "in it for life and down the road people," not convienence relationships... People need the in it for life kind...

 

[Jalopycat]

I know that you women probably want to be doctors so that you can be the "boss", prove how smart you are, be successful, make lots of money and be on a power trip - but if you reread many of my previous posts you will see that the reason I want to be an MD is because I have felt it a calling to be of service to my fellow man. I am good with people and largely its because I really like them - it does not mean that I am blind to their faults, such as the fact most women are gold diggers (why else would most of them expect alimony the rest of their lives for doing nothing - especially since most divorces are instigated by women - and then they have the gall to ask for money- insane).

Wow. You'll never be my doctor. It's pretty arrogant for you to make uneducated assumptions about why women go into medicine but yet your own reasons are nothing but noble. I'm a woman I can tell you I didn't go into it for any of the reasons you state I did. It's also been my experience that anyone who has to point out that they are doing something noble, are usually big fakers.

You should change you attitude towards women if you plan on having a successful medical practice. Women go to the doctor more than most men. They won't like your attitude, and they will not hesitate to find a more compassionate doctor. Women have a 6th sense, they know when people don't like them, so don't think you're fooling anyone by your bad acting in clinic.

I can't believe I wasted sleep time on a troll....

 

[jennie 21]

My spouse is giving up quite a bit for my career, but we entered into this knowing that together. I don't think you can understand just how much you give up until you go through it. I have fought hard for the both of us and somehow have managed to save my marriage and family. We will go to counseling, especially during the adjust phase after the move. I think she is just frightened by the move and knowing that I'll be gone a lot is probably more scary in a city where we don't have anyone else to rely on. Things obviously aren't perfect, but I'm happy we're going to keep fighting for our family. I can only think that if we get through the next handful of years we will be very strong. I'm trying to be positive, so I won't bash my wife. We all have our shortcomings, some are just more of an inconvenience than others.

Lost1--this is wonderful news! I'm glad for your sake but even more for your kids that you two have decided to try to work this out. I wish you all the best with that, and I hope things work out for you. I just want to say that you are doing a wonderful thing for your kids to try to keep their family intact, even if it's the harder thing to do. If it doesn't work in the end, at least you will know you really tried. All the best to you and your family.

 

[cali-ob]

Dear CALI-OB,

Lay off the crack, dude.

Sincerely Yours,
Concerned Medical Professional.

I'm sorry what? I post a reply based on someone's seriously twisted rant, and you tell ME to lay off the crack? Are you kidding? Maybe you're mixing my post up with someone else's...

 

[sirus_virus]

Yeah we need to get off doowai's case. He is only keeping his pimp hand strong.

 

[mig26x]

congrats to the OP!! Counseling is a very good start!!

My GF is also very scared of moving to a new city were she knows I'll be most of the time at the hospital and she is going to be alone. alot of people go through this!!

And yes, if you pass through this you are going to have a strong marriage!!

Good luck in your future

 

[Doowai]

Lost1, I sincerely hope you do not end up back at the divorce point again when you are making good money. I really hope you are on the long term road to a stable marraige now.

I find it interesting that so many people felt it was cruel for an intern to get a dog their intern year in one thread, but in another thread NOT wrong for an intern to have a baby (and obviously dump it in daycare). Old fashioned marraiges tended to last a long time because women understood that a family is a team and not everyone can be the quarterback or wide receiver but each person has their role for the team to work - modern women just don't seem to understand that - they aren't happy unless they feel they ARE men. You just don't find many women that can be women any more - and so few men that can be men.

Instead of starting a new thread to deal with your hurt feelings, or discussing my comments here as they related to the original thread starters situation (such as logically countering my claims, instead of responding in a typical female emotional manner). If you disagreed, it was a good opportunity to do so in a calm more masculine manner - and perhaps have benefited the man who started this thread - however you may not have countered my comments logically because you have nothing logical to say about them, just emotional stabs in attempts to hurt me back (comments about my ability to support the family without having any facts about me, or attempts to say women have a "6th sense" and would not utilize my services - without knowing my previous profession which catered primarily to women. "6th sense" - that is funny, its such a sterotype of women - that they have some sort of magical intuition).

This song is for all the selfish women (and few guys who sit down to pee and did so as well) who hijacked this thread and made it about them, instead of the man who started this thread in pain (that is a bad characteristic for a doctor : unable to put aside their own pain long enough to deal with someone elses pain - I hope I never have to get treated by you "doctors" when you are having a bad day...sheesh. No wonder most people feel medical doctors have such poor bedside manner) :

Interpret: Toby Keith
Name: I Wanna Talk About ME !

Uh huh, that's right
We talk about your work, how your boss is a jerk,
We talk about your church and your head when it hurts.
We talk about the troubles you've been havin' wit your brother
'bout your daddy and your mother and your crazy ex-lover.
We talk about your friends and the places that you've been,
We talk about your skin and the dimples on your chin.
The polish on your toes and the run in your hose,
and God knows we're gonna talk about your clothes.
You know talkin' about you makes me smile, but every once in a while,

I wanna talk about ME, I wanna talk about I
Wanna talk about number 1 oh my, me, my,
What I think, What I like, What I know, What I want, What I see.
I like talkin' about you, you, you, you usually, but occasionally
I wanna talk about ME! (me, me, me,) I wanna talk about ME-E-E. (me, me, me)

We talk about your dreams and we talk about your schemes,
Your high school team and your moisturizer cream.
We talk about your nana up in Muncie, Indiana,
We talk about your grandma down in Alabama.
We talk about your guys of every shape and size,
The ones that you despize and the ones you idolize.
We talk about your heart, 'bout your brains and your smarts,
And your medical charts and when you start.
You know talkin' about you makes me grin, but every now and then,

I wanna talk about me, I wanna talk about I,
Wanna talk about number 1 oh my, me, my.
What I think, What I like, What I know, What I want, What I see.
I like talkin' about you, you, you, you usually, but occasionally
I wanna talk about ME! (me, me, me,) I wanna talk about ME-E-E (me, me, me)

(I wanna talk about me) MMMM ME, ME, ME, ME, ME
(i wanna talk about me) MMMM ME, ME, ME, ME, ME

You, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you,
I wanna talk about ME!

I wanna talk about me, I wanna talk about I,
Wanna talk about number 1 oh my, me, my.
What I think, What I like, What I know, What I want, What I see,
Oh I like talkin' about you, you, you, you usually, but occasionally,
I wanna talk about ME! (me, me, me) I wanna talk about ME-E-E
I wanna talk about ME! (me, me, me) No ME-E-E! (me, me, me)

 

[lilnoelle]

Wow that is really something. I don't know what to say about that. I admit - I found it interesting that almost across the board - people here, many of them women, felt it was cruel for someone to get a dog during their intern year in one thread - yet also said its okay for a woman to get pregnant her intern year or during residency. I guess they value dogs more than babies - great people to be doctors (and parents) <----- thats sarcasm by the way.

I found the one post interesting that said women have some sort of 6th sense and would reject me as a doctor because they could pick up on my attitude - I wish I felt comfortable going into what my former career was prior to returning to medical school - since that is not the case - my job relied heavily on women. SOme of whom still call me for advice and help, even though they have not been officially clients of mine for a few years. The irony of life will probably be when I am in residency, I will run into some of you and you wil have no idea.

Hey, women can be doctors. Medicine is a better fit for men - if for no other reason than being a medical doctor increases a mans attractiveness and reduces a womans attractiveness. Its the same way age reduces a womans attractiveness and increases a mans attractiveness. Its just that a woman who is actually cut out to be a doctor is not cut out to be a mother - being a mother means you are present, and not letting nannies and daycare etc raise your kids. If a man wants to have a family he certainly needs someone who is dedicated to being a mother - sure its old fashioned, but the old fashioned way worked - look at the marraiges that lasted 30 years the old fashioned way - not the same with the modern dual working families today. There needs to be a parent at home. A woman in residency is certainly no mother - probably never will be either. Her selfish ambition most certainly will train her to be unable to ever really be present for the kids.

I have seen lots of female doctors - I have seen a couple that weren't bad.Most though, are hideous. Some men are going to find them attractive - but men who are 4-6 themselves. Men though earn their points primarily through income - a man who makes 7 figures is going to be a 9, a man who makes 6 figures is going to be a 6-8 (this is my income level prior to going back to medical school) and man who is making 5 figures (like I am this year) is going to be a 4 or 5. Women who are 9's typically never go into somethign demanding like medicine _ I certainly have never seen a 9 in medicine. Perhaps the closest was Dr.Lynn Pirie back in the 1980's, she was perhaps a 7 - but when she hit her thirties like all women she hit her expiration date - a woman can't be a 10 after her thirties.

Of course marraiges are built on more than just looks and attractiveness - such as a committment to raise a family - and like all working systems not everyone can play the same role. A family is a team and not everyone can be the quarterback or a point gaurd - yet so many women insist they play the same team position as the man - perhaps that is why American families are failing left and right - selfish women who are unwilling to play anything but the mans position. Of course alot of it may be that so few women are feminine these days that most men really don't want them - attractivess is not what a marriage is built on - but it certainly makes a difference in the dating period prior to getting married. So for the women who are 5's or less there is always the satisfaction that comes from career.

With that I bid you adieu - have fun attacking these thoughts - while at the same time trying to deal with your hurt feelings - the pain of a sad realization that medicine is not a field that has many good looking women (there may be exceptions to the rule, but exceptions to not change the rule - while someone may survive jumping off a 10 story building it does not change the fact its not a good idea to jump off a 10 story building) - and so if you are a female in medicine chances are you are a "5" at best - until you hit 30. Plus the sad realization that you DO probably value dogs more than children, and are too self absorbed to ever be a good mother. IF....IF....IF you were hot, a man would have really persued you for marraige by now - I mean really chased you....really dogged you and not been willing to let go. Lets face it, while family medicine and psychiatry may be desireable to people with low board scores only because that is their only choice, power careers are only desireable to women who are fugly because that is their only real choice. Again there may be exceptions to the rule, but the exception does not change the rule.

Hmmmm. I guess I always thought that my worth was based on more than my body. Your "grading" system is disgusting.

I do agree that people that have children would ideally have someone stay at home with them while they're young to raise them, but why does this role automatically fall to the woman?

I have tons more to say, but don't really think it matters anyway since your mind is already made up and for the most part, your the only one on this board that thinks the way you do.



Ooh, and I caught your post before you edited it out. Oops.

 

[lilnoelle]

I find it interesting that so many people felt it was cruel for an intern to get a dog their intern year in one thread, but in another thread NOT wrong for an intern to have a baby (and obviously dump it in daycare).

I responded to this above

Instead of starting a new thread to deal with your hurt feelings, or discussing my comments as they related to the original thread starters situation (such as logically countering my claims, instead of responding in a typical female emotional manner). If you disagreed, it was a good opportunity to do so in a calm more masculine manner - and perhaps have benefited the man who started this thread. For all the selfish women who hijacked this thread and made it about them, instead of the man whose cheating wife left him :

The biggest logical counter to your claim is that the Op never gave any indication that his wife cheated on him.

Your initial post was inflammatory and unnecessarily so. Especially considering the news that the Op and his wife have started doing what they need to do to work the situation out.
You assumed that his wife was cheating on him and proceeded to tell him to give no mercy to her because all women are evil for a variety of reasons.

This is an illogical claim. (if for no other reason that you probably know a very small percentage of the females in the world)

You have, in every post after your initial post, continually made it very obvious about how you feel about women and THAT is why we have continued to post our thoughts about the matter.

 

[Doowai]

Actually you only caught part of it.

I doubt I am the only one who feels that way.

And its not my system of ranking - if only FMG's could hear what American grads said behind their back and if only women could hear what their male medical colleagues said about them behind their back - I am sure both would be shocked...and the comments would both be similar. You may be blind to this standard, but I am not....as an FMG and as a male.

You will never see man, in any sort of large scale way, be the ones to stay home with the children. No matter how much our society tries to estrogenize everyone - its never going to happen. Of course more and more we see far fewer women fit to be mothers also - and as a result we will see society have more and more problems as children become more and more dysfunctional.

 

[lilnoelle]

Actually you only caught part of it.

I doubt I am the only one who feels that way.

And its not my system of ranking - if only FMG's could hear what American grads said behind their back and if only women could hear what their male medical colleagues said about them behind their back - I am sure both would be shocked...and the comments would both be similar. You may be blind to this standard, but I am not....as an FMG and as a male.

You will never see man, in any sort of large scale way, be the ones to stay home with the children. No matter how much our society tries to estrogenize everyone - its never going to happen. Of course more and more we see far fewer women fit to be mothers also - and as a result we will see society have more and more problems as children become more and more dysfunctional.

Both are possible. It doesn't really matter to me, since I'm already married and already have two beautiful children (just starting the med school journey this year).

But you need to realize that a lot of women are just not cut out to be stay at home mothers. I'm certainly not. Actually, in a lot of ways, I do feel like I fit the male role better than the female role. It has nothing to do with how I was raised, my parents were very traditional.
Perhaps that means I shouldn't have had children... I don't know. But whether I should have or shouldn't have doesn't really matter. I do have children and so I have to do what I can with what I have.
It was much more practical for me to continue my education than it was for my husband to start his (he went straight into the military out of high school). The decision for me to go back to school was made together - I would have been ok waiting if he had wanted to start school instead of me, but that is not what we decided to do.

 

[Doowai]

I responded to this above




The biggest logical counter to your claim is that the Op never gave any indication that his wife cheated on him.

Your initial post was inflammatory and unnecessarily so. Especially considering the news that the Op and his wife have started doing what they need to do to work the situation out.
You assumed that his wife was cheating on him and proceeded to tell him to give no mercy to her because all women are evil for a variety of reasons.

This is an illogical claim. (if for no other reason that you probably know a very small percentage of the females in the world)

You have, in every post after your initial post, continually made it very obvious about how you feel about women and THAT is why we have continued to post our thoughts about the matter.

Not all women, just most women. There are exceptions to the rule but that does not change the rule. Most women are selfish people who have lost the concept of a family being a team, and instead insist on being the star player, the coach - everything except a woman and a mother. Most women want equal pay - yet want to be able to miss long chunks of work for things like pregnancy - when I hired someone to work for me I planned on them being there, if you can't be at work you should not be in the work field. And despite wanting the same money as men, women expect an alimony after a divorce - they want equal pay and half his money too - for what?

Not all women are evil - most traditional women are not evil. Most modern women are as evil as they come. I don't have to meet all women or even most to formulate an accurate picture any more than I have to meet all hyenas, or all snakes to get an accurate idea about their habits and characteristics. All one has to do is look at trends (like alimony being paid to women for no good reason), statistics (like most divorces being initiated by women who bail on marraiges because they lack any real commitment to the idea) and observing what happens to the people I know around me. A few guys , such as myself get lucky and find a team player, the rest would do well to remember not to get married until you are at least 25 and have your career path established. Few guys,,,,, dreadfully few would ever have a woman (such as mine) who is supportive of a career shift later in life (especially stepping away from a 6 figure income like I did to persue something as challenging as medicine) - most women are dream killers and would keep a man from persuing such goals. Lets face it , few women are worth the effort of any long term relationships and most guys ought to plan on just building their careers and interacting with women in a manner that fits them

 

[lilnoelle]

Not all women, just most women. There are exceptions to the rule but that does not change the rule. Most women are selfish people who have lost the concept of a family being a team, and instead insist on being the star player, the coach - everything except a woman and a mother. Most women want equal pay - yet want to be able to miss long chunks of work for things like pregnancy - when I hired someone to work for me I planned on them being there, if you can't be at work you should not be in the work field. And despite wanting the same money as men, women expect an alimony after a divorce - they want equal pay and half his money too - for what?

Not all women are evil (although you cannot say evil without first saying Eve) - most traditional women are not evil. Most modern women are as evil as they come. I don't have to meet all women or even most to formulate an accurate picture any more than I have to meet all hyenas, or all snakes to get an accurate idea about their habits and characteristics. All one has to do is look at trends (like alimony being paid to women for no good reason), statistics (like most divorces being initiated by women who bail on marraiges because they lack any real commitment to the idea) and observing what happens to the people I know around me. A few guys , such as myself get lucky and find a team player, the rest would do well to remember not to get married until you are at least 25 and have your career path established. Few guys,,,,, dreadfully few would ever have a woman (such as mine) who is supportive of a career shift later in life (especially stepping away from a 6 figure income like I did to persue something as challenging as medicine) - most women are dream killers and would keep a man from persuing such goals. Lets face it , few women are worth the effort of any long term relationships and most guys ought to plan on just building their careers and interacting with women in a manner that fits them

And what manner would that be?

I think the population of women that you see do not represent the real population. That or your perspective is skewed enough that you don't see the whole picture in the women that you mention.

I think most modern women do what to be a team-player in their families and relationships. They just don't want to be the inferior player, or they don't want their husband to play "coach". No doubt marriages require sacrifice and compromise on both sides. In the same way I don't think that many unhappy marriages are caused solely by one party.

Concerning your complaints against women in general. Any woman that cheats is wrong, the same is true for men. I don't know any stats, but I think your opinion that women cheat more than men is probably in-accurate. I don't know anything about alimony payments - but really, leave that for the judge to decide. You probably don't know the whole story. Why shouldn't women get the same pay as men if they are doing the same job? Your argument concerning child birth is not accurate, as most women just get 6 weeks off post-partum - which is for medical purposes and not exactly a selfish thing. (Men would get that time off if their physician deemed it necessary for medical purposes as well)

 

[Doowai]

1) But you need to realize that a lot of women are just not cut out to be stay at home mothers. I'm certainly not.
2) Actually, in a lot of ways, I do feel like I fit the male role better than the female role. It has nothing to do with how I was raised, my parents were very traditional.
3) Perhaps that means I shouldn't have had children... I don't know. But whether I should have or shouldn't have doesn't really matter. I do have children and so I have to do what I can with what I have.
4) It was much more practical for me to continue my education than it was for my husband to start his (he went straight into the military out of high school). The decision for me to go back to school was made together - I would have been ok waiting if he had wanted to start school instead of me, but that is not what we decided to do.

1) Believe me I realize that.... I think someone with any intelligence would get the idea by now that I do not feel most women are fit to be mothers, especially women who would be doctors.
2) Since you are in medicine I am sure you have all sorts of "yang" masculine characteristics - exactly the sort I would not want being a mother to mine or any children
3) you are right it is too late for that...that realization should come before one spawns children. Until one knows for sure they should use reliable birth control - hormones. but since women are notoriously bad about taking BC correctly men should always use condoms they themselves bring and not trust the condoms women provide. Many women want to have a child with a man so they can get the eternal paycheck from the man - but to do that a woman has to pick a man that can support a family (such as myself) or she will end up having to earn income (if she is not hot). But yes, once you have children you have to just deal with it. I am glad I waited until I was married, in my late 20's, already had a serious career and owned my own business before I had children - I would have hated to bring children into the world without feeling I could provide a stable home.
4) The military can be a great career. Someone who goes into the military right out of high school can retire at 40!!!! If they stick with it and not be a quitter. Of course if they quit the military they are back to crappy jobs. But if they can get a woman to be a doctor for them they can be a kept man

 

[lilnoelle]

.

 

[Doowai]

Anyway, enough of this banter.

Lost1 - I am glad that you are back with your wife, if for no other reason that it now puts the ball in your court. Like you said we all have our weaknesses and you are wanting to be positive. However let me please just add this - don't be blind to her weaknesses. Be positive but not blind. people tend to return to their weaknesses again and again. I read another post earlier in which the guy points out he is an alcoholic and has had numerous DUI's if I remember correctly.

He is most likely going to drink again, drive drunk again - personally I don't feel that person belongs in a profession like medicine if he might be under the influence of any substance while on work - and as someone whose brother-in-law was killed by a drunken driver, I think drunk driving laws are nowhere near harsh enough (I am sure this will also anger many people on here, but only because it hits too close to home for them since many on here also have substance abuse problems - at least this guy is storng enought to admit it to himself) - what this means to you is, I think your wife may be likely to go this route again when things get tough. Don't stick your head in the sand about it - I would prepare for it now.

Financially, socially, etc - you need to have your ducks in a row IF it happens again. I am sure you know what I mean. "Fool me once - shame on you, fool me twice - shame on me"

I think women are better suited to be mothers than men - some may also think that I feel being a mother is weaker or lesser than being a father - which is far from the truth. I have so much respect for my wife. I have made 6 figure income for many years (not this year) , which is something the vast majority of people never do - and if things don't work out for me in medicine, I think and hope for my family I can do it again. However, the important thing (as you know) in a marraige is the children - and that is woman's work - and it is the MOST important work. My children are turning out great - and its largely the result of my wife (I have never pretended it is otherwise - I know my place, and its earning money. If anyone can find where I have said otherwise point it out to me and I will admit my error)- she has been a stay at home mom 16 of the 17 years we have been married. The only thing I have done important is made it financially possible for her to raise our children - many feel that is sexist and that I am holding her down - but we both feel that there is nothing more important in life to do than raise children. But women who become masculine through the whole feminism process lose touch with what makes them well suited for this most important task - they lose the "Yin", the feminine, the soft, qualities that make them specially suited for the most important job in the world. I now want to change my career and earn money at something I feel is more fullfilling - I may not be well suited for it, time will tell - I am certainly better suited for it than a drunk doctor.

I don't know your wife, but I know we all tend to be habitual in our reactions and habits. I have to say I fear your wife will run again - sorry if this seems blunt and hurts. I hope I am wrong - you sound like a great guy, and the world is turning out so many dysfunctional children that we need more from good homes with 2 parents working as a team. Your children, all children, deserve stability. Take care of things so that IF it happens again, you can deal with it and maintain some control.

FYI - IMHO pleading and begging never allow a man any control.
==============================================================
LilNoelle : "We married young and had kids because he was not big on birth control"..???.

Uggh....c'mon assume some responsibility ...life doesn't have to just happen to you. Enough...Please don't prove my points for me.

====================================================
Guys wait until you are 25 minimum, have a career. Unmarried med male med students and residents - there is no rush. You have to go through alot of women to find a gem...trust me I know, I really speak from experience, as someone who has seen alot of trash women over the years and who was very patient and whose patience paid off by marrying a true gem. - and you need to be prepared to have a family, and you need to have a good team player. Be patient - and be okay with birth control until you are ready to have children. Geez......

Now I go to puke

 

[Tired]

I think drunk driving laws are nowhere near harsh enough (I am sure this will also anger many people on here, but only because it hits too close to home for them since many on here also have substance abuse problems - at least this guy is storng enought to admit it to himself) - what this means to you is, I think your wife may be likely to go this route again when things get tough. Don't stick your head in the sand about it - I would prepare for it now.

5000 words of elementary school silliness, and he finally makes a good point. Way to go Doowai, you may not be a complete idiot after all!

 

[Doowai]

aahhh, zLilNoelle, you edited out all your comments about getting pregnant because you married young and your husband did not like using birthcontrol (even though there are more forms of BC than just condoms) - and that you really did not want kids. Good idea.

 

[medicineman1]

Doowai-

You are over the top, and seem to me, to be a passive aggressive, narcisst.

For one, in spite of my fiancees's sudden departure, and my life being turned upside down- and my subsequent loss of faith in the female race, I still believe that women are wonderful and are equal. You do point out an interesting point that "if it happens once it will happen again". Maybe or maybe not?

You do however continue to infiltrate this website with sexist bull****! Good for you that your wife has been brain washed by your culture or whatever cult you belong to?!

And you interject that an alcoholic is not fit to practice medicine? Alcoholism is a very treatable disease if you hadn't learned that in your psyche course. Alcoholics Anonymous was founded by a brilliant physician with the disease. The OP does not deserve to be trashed by your off the wall narcisstic passive aggressive comments!

Many people go through drama in life including spouses leaving them. or an unfortunate insidious alcohol problem which slaps you in the face, etc. The last thing anyone needs to hear is re: your opinion of a woman's place in the world!

If you want to preach, find another forum dude, and good luck in the match next year!

 

[Doowai]

5000 words of elementary school silliness, and he finally makes a good point. Way to go Doowai, you may not be a complete idiot after all!

Since you are then by default one of those who feel a dog deserves more concern during residency than a child, and one of those that feel drunken doctors are okay (other points I made and which you declare are not good points) - I am glad we are on opposite sides of the fence.

 

[Doowai]

Doowai-

You are over the top, and seem to me, to be a passive aggressive, narcisst.

You do point out an interesting point that "if it happens once it will happen again".

And you interject that an alcoholic is not fit to practice medicine? Alcoholism is a very treatable disease if you hadn't learned that in your psyche course. Alcoholics Anonymous was founded by a brilliant physician with the disease. !

I did learn that only a shlock doctor thinks they can form an accurate diagnosis of something as complex as a personality disorder from such brief exposures to a person. Alcoholism is not a disease the way Turner's syndrome is a disease - because a person does not choose Turner's syndrome, but a person chooses to drink until they are drunk...and even more so they decide to drive once they are drunk, instead of getting a ride home or calling a taxi. DUI's should be punished - not coddled as though they are some unfortunate individual who cannot help their situation. Someone with Downs syndrome is unfortunate - someone with multiple DUI's is an ass who should be punished, and if they kill someone while driving impaired they should be treated like any other murderer and sent to the electric chair. The last thing they need is a doctor such as yourself who enables them by making them feel they are some sort of unfortunate victim of their being drunk

Real diseases slap you in the face (to use your phrase) but alcoholism is when you slap yourself in the face. To call it a disease takes the responsibility out of it - since you defend the drunk drivers, I imagine you defend rapists, pedophiles and other violent criminals who assault others as victims of a disease. The drunk could not help himself from smashing his metal vehicle into an innocent person he has a disease. The rapist could not help himself - he has a disease. Calling it a disease is just the opportunity to release total responsibility - it is cowardice.

 

[medicineman1]

Like I said Mr. passive aggressive - you are implying that all women belong at home. You are also stating that alcoholics with a dui shouldn't be physicians?! where is your compassion? You are a sad man.

 

[Tired]

Since you are then by default one of those who feel a dog deserves more concern during residency than a child, and one of those that feel drunken doctors are okay (other points I made and which you declare are not good points) - I am glad we are on opposite sides of the fence. My main prayer now is that you and the other drunken dog loving doctors die in your next DUI.

You won't mind if I hook up with your wife after she leaves you, right?

And for everyone else, a quick question: Has anyone else been trying as hard as they can not to say, "Real men get into residency . . . "?

 

[Doowai]

*

 

[Doowai]

Like I said Mr. passive aggressive - you are implying that all women belong at home. You are also stating that alcoholics with a dui shouldn't be physicians?! where is your compassion? You are a sad man.

*

 

[Doowai]

You won't mind if I hook up with your wife after she leaves you, right?

And for everyone else, a quick question: Has anyone else been trying as hard as they can not to say, "Real men get into residency . . . "?

*

 

[Tired]

aahhh, zLilNoelle, you edited out all your comments about getting pregnant because you married young and your husband did not like using birthcontrol (even though there are more forms of BC than just condoms) - and that you really did not want kids. Good idea.

Ah I see. You quote people, assuming that they will try to edit their comments later. That way you can report the thread, and try to get them dinged or banned.

Oh my sad little friend, haven't you read your own comments here, like this gem?

 

[Tired]

1) Believe me I realize that.... I think someone with any intelligence would get the idea by now that I do not feel most women are fit to be mothers, especially women who would be doctors.

Most modern women are as evil as they come. I don't have to meet all women or even most to formulate an accurate picture any more than I have to meet all hyenas, or all snakes to get an accurate idea about their habits and characteristics.

Other than that most women suck. They are dream killers. They are dishonest. They are gold diggers. Have no regrets about getting custody if the children, have no regrets about having fun only with women without letting them into your heart, your home (never ever ever let a woman have a key to your apartment) or your wallet.

Or these.

So now that you're giving up on medicine, does that mean you'll be leaving SDN behind? One can only hope.

 

[dutchman]

I certainly do not feel that all woman deserve to be at home. Perhaps only real men get into residency - - I will leave the final answer of that rather lowhanded accusation to the other males here who have not and will not make it into residency.

Anyway, I went to bed and woke up feeling like I had a minor revelation. I apologize for those I upset for my comment to Lost1 initially, much of which I am sure was one male trying to comfort or give solace to another who had just been hurt by his wife leaving (or saying she was leaving him) during a rather critical time in his life.As well as thanks for the realization of what I have. I possess rather strong beliefs of the value of children,a traditional family unit - its what I value most. I read so much of the discontent in medicine here with so many of you. I read of the stress residency causes in the lives of those who are married. Definately the whole pursuit of residency fits someone who has no ties, no commitment and is willing to sacrifice everything. I have ties, I have committments and I am not willing to sacrifice everything - my family means everything to me.

I grew up in a time when the medical image was of a guy on TV known as Marcus Welby - smart, logical, fair, above the belt, kind , caring. Now the image is that of House (mean spirited drug abuser) or SCRUBS.

I apologize again and am grateful for the realization of what I really want out of life - which is what I already have.

What you have is a bad attitude, which will probably not fit in anywhere else either. Good luck in your pursuit of misery.

 

[pankun]

I certainly do not feel that all woman deserve to be at home. Perhaps only real men get into residency - - I will leave the final answer of that rather lowhanded accusation to the other males here who have not and will not make it into residency.

Anyway, I went to bed and woke up feeling like I had a minor revelation. I apologize for those I upset for my comment to Lost1 initially, much of which I am sure was one male trying to comfort or give solace to another who had just been hurt by his wife leaving (or saying she was leaving him) during a rather critical time in his life.As well as thanks for the realization of what I have. I possess rather strong beliefs of the value of children,a traditional family unit - its what I value most. I read so much of the discontent in medicine here with so many of you. I read of the stress residency causes in the lives of those who are married. Definately the whole pursuit of residency fits someone who has no ties, no commitment and is willing to sacrifice everything. I have ties, I have committments and I am not willing to sacrifice everything - my family means everything to me.

I grew up in a time when the medical image was of a guy on TV known as Marcus Welby - smart, logical, fair, above the belt, kind , caring. Now the image is that of House (mean spirited drug abuser) or SCRUBS.

I apologize again and am grateful for the realization of what I really want out of life - which is what I already have.

If you're happy with what you already have, why are you so bittered in your every single post? You sound like a little grumpy old man.

 

[lilnoelle]

aahhh, zLilNoelle, you edited out all your comments about getting pregnant because you married young and your husband did not like using birthcontrol (even though there are more forms of BC than just condoms) - and that you really did not want kids. Good idea.

Actually, I was trying to be honest with you and you didn't address me, but rather said "enough of this banter" so I thought it was a worthless post. Thats why I deleted it.
I never mentioned condoms in my post and I definitely never said that I didn't want kids. I actually always wanted kids but didn't really know what I was getting into until I had them.

I hope your more sympathetic with your patients.

 

[sequela]

he's not going to have patients.



guys, i suggest we stop responding to this idiot. he's a waste of time.