What is good about the match?

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Many of the most competitive specialties are not at all these lifestyle specialties that you're describing. PRS, ortho, neurosurgery? I don't think anyone considers those to be lifestyle specialties, yet they are all "competitive specialties".

Neurosurgery aside, the fields within the scope of surgery that are most in demand (and the ones with the most rapidly rising demand) are definitely lifestyle friendly, at least as far as surgery goes.

No doubt an ortho residency is hard - but it then can lead to a career of doing elective outpatient surgeries.

No doubt a urology residency is hard - but then you can have a career with a lot of in-clinic procedures that reimburse well.

Same for PRS, ENT, ophtho.

Within the subset of medical students who want to cut for a living - the competitiveness largely mirrors the quality of lifestyle.

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Neurosurgery aside, the fields within the scope of surgery that are most in demand (and the ones with the most rapidly rising demand) are definitely lifestyle friendly, at least as far as surgery goes.

No doubt an ortho residency is hard - but it then can lead to a career of doing elective outpatient surgeries.

No doubt a urology residency is hard - but then you can have a career with a lot of in-clinic procedures that reimburse well.

Same for PRS, ENT, ophtho.

Within the subset of medical students who want to cut for a living - the competitiveness largely mirrors the quality of lifestyle.

All of these statements are pretty conditional though. I'm sure you could make an argument that you could set up a practice that is lifestyle-friendly in the vast majority of specialties, some of which are competitive, while others are not.
 
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All of these statements are pretty conditional though. I'm sure you could make an argument that you could set a practice that is lifestyle-friendly in the vast majority of specialties, some of which are competitive, while others are not.

I don't think it is at all conditional that the appeal of these fields is in their relative lifestyle friendliness compared to, say, general surgery. I gave specific examples for the point of being granular; their lifestyle friendly appeal is actually quite broad. Just about every one of my co-residents in those fields comments on it as their reason for choosing the field. It also shows in what the most competitive fellowships are in those fields - they're the ones that lend themselves to an even more friendly lifestyle.
 
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All of these statements are pretty conditional though. I'm sure you could make an argument that you could set up a practice that is lifestyle-friendly in the vast majority of specialties, some of which are competitive, while others are not.
I've never heard of a Vascular surgeon being able to set up a so-called "lifestyle-friendly" practice. It comes with the territory of the specialty and the disease breadth that it encompasses, vs. say Surgical Oncology.
 
I've never heard of a Vascular surgeon being able to set up a so-called "lifestyle-friendly" practice. It comes with the territory of the specialty and the disease breadth that it encompasses, vs. say Surgical Oncology.

I said the majority of specialties. And with reference to vascular surgery, I've heard strictly doing vein work can be quite lifestyle-friendly.
 
I said the majority of specialties. And with reference to vascular surgery, I've heard strictly doing vein work can be quite lifestyle-friendly.
Yes, and by narrowing the scope of your practice in that way only to Phlebology, you have to be ok with a concomitant decrease in salary. The other fellowships in Surgery allow you to still have the same lifestyle without decreasing your scope, and thus not decreasing your paycheck.
 
Yes, and by narrowing the scope of your practice in that way only to Phlebology, you have to be ok with a concomitant decrease in salary. The other fellowships in Surgery allow you to still have the same lifestyle without decreasing your scope, and thus not decreasing your paycheck.

Definitely understand what you're saying, but most of those were examples of limiting your scope of practice, albeit maybe not with a salary decrease. For example, you can have a good lifestyle in ortho IF you do elective, outpatient procedures, but that in itself is limiting scope of practice away from trauma. Same can be said for PRS.

My original comments were really just meant to say that it's unfair to say that everyone that goes into competitive specialties is just in it for the lifestyle even if they aren't even interested in the field. Also, there's nothing wrong with considering lifestyle when making a decision about the job you will do for 30+ years, it doesn't have to be something to look down upon.
 
Definitely understand what you're saying, but most of those were examples of limiting your scope of practice, albeit maybe not with a salary decrease. For example, you can have a good lifestyle in ortho IF you do elective, outpatient procedures, but that in itself is limiting scope of practice away from trauma. Same can be said for PRS.

My original comments were really just meant to say that it's unfair to say that everyone that goes into competitive specialties is just in it for the lifestyle even if they aren't even interested in the field. Also, there's nothing wrong with considering lifestyle when making a decision about the job you will do for 30+ years, it doesn't have to be something to look down upon.
Yes, but as SouthernIM said, Ortho is that way, as is Urology. The residency is hard. Attending life can be much different. You could be an Orthopod and do elective knee replacements all day, which we'll keep you busy enough without a concomitant decrease in salary. It's much harder to do this in specialties like Transplant, Cardiothoracic, Trauma, Vascular, etc. if at all.

In the end, Medicine is just a job. A satisfying job that pays well (for now) but still a job nonetheless.
 
Definitely understand what you're saying, but most of those were examples of limiting your scope of practice, albeit maybe not with a salary decrease. For example, you can have a good lifestyle in ortho IF you do elective, outpatient procedures, but that in itself is limiting scope of practice away from trauma. Same can be said for PRS.

Right...but a vascular surgeon who restricts their practice to veins only is (a) uncommon and (b) likely to suffer a hit to their income.

An orthopod who restricts their practice to elective/joints is (a) ridiculously common and ( b ) likely to have a net benefit to their income (due to an increase in insured/ privately insured patients).

In general the lifestyle prospects for an ortho, uro, etc are better than that of the average general surgeon. There are certainly examples of people on each and every field with worse or better lifestyles. But on average the more competitive surgical fields have a better lifestyle - and I think that's no coincidence
 
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In life, if there aren't enough spots for everyone, the person with the most qualifications will get the job 9/10 times. It doesn't matter if someone else wanted it more (however you judge that).

You would have a valid point if the USMLE were a meaningful differentiating factor in terms of qualifying applicants for residency positions. While some no doubt believe that it is, it my strong opinion that it does not. Looking at a 255 vs. a 225 step 1 applicant (both scores well above passing), I see very little reason why the difference in performance on that test by itself indicates that one applicant would be a better resident than another. The reality is that most graduating medical students are entering residency with the approximately the same skill set. Nearly everyone is intellectually capable as the weaklings were weeded out by admissions or early in M1 or M2. It's not like we are talking about physicians 20 years into our career and applying for a chair position where our CVs actually convey a meaningful track record. Med students CVs are for the most part fluff, and if you can take a step back and look at the big picture, there is very little students can do to while in school to achieve legitimate qualifications as M1-M3 is virtually homogeneous for everybody. It's not like you're evaluating college grads for a job and comparing transcripts between an applicant who took easy classes and made a B+ average vs. an applicant who took rigorous classes and made a B average. The transcripts in med school are mostly pass/fail. They take the same classes. Med students, for the most part, have done the same thing. The only that really differs is their personality and demonstrated interest and aptitude for the field in which they are applying. The rest is just hoops to have jumped through. To me, it seems silly to count up the number of hoops each candidate managed to clear and use that to rank them.

It's actually rather difficult to get a job in industry out of college with a 4.0 GPA. A lot of hiring managers see that as a red flag. They prefer to see a mix of As and Bs with an internship or two thrown in, part-time jobs, and solid letters of reference. You know, a well-rounded person. Hiring managers are keen to pick up on personality traits and the 4.0 guys have to prove they can work with people, be a team player, and be personable. Oddly, because medicine is so tied to academia, numbers and pedigree trump everything else. You can do all the away rotations in the world and get great letters of recommendation proving how capable, focused, and easy to work with you are, but unless your numbers are in line with everyone else, it's unlikely you will be successful because these are not viewed as qualifications. Rather, the important "qualifications" are USMLE score (testing some obsecure biochemistry crap long forgotten), rank of medical school, number (not quality) of research experiences and publications. It's ridiculous.
 
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You would have a valid point if the USMLE were a meaningful differentiating factor in terms of qualifying applicants for residency positions. While some no doubt believe that it is, it my strong opinion that it does not. Looking at a 255 vs. a 225 step 1 applicant (both scores well above passing), I see very little reason why the difference in performance on that test by itself indicates that one applicant would be a better resident than another. The reality is that most graduating medical students are entering residency with the approximately the same skill set. Nearly everyone is intellectually capable as the weaklings were weeded out by admissions or early in M1 or M2. It's not like we are talking about physicians 20 years into our career and applying for a chair position where our CVs actually convey a meaningful track record. Med students CVs are for the most part fluff, and if you can take a step back and look at the big picture, there is very little students can do to while in school to achieve legitimate qualifications as M1-M3 is virtually homogeneous for everybody. It's not like you're evaluating college grads for a job and comparing transcripts between an applicant who took easy classes and made a B+ average vs. an applicant who took rigorous classes and made a B average. The transcripts in med school are mostly pass/fail. They take the same classes. Med students, for the most part, have done the same thing. The only that really differs is their personality and demonstrated interest and aptitude for the field in which they are applying. The rest is just hoops to have jumped through. To me, it seems silly to count up the number of hoops each candidate managed to clear and use that to rank them.

It's actually rather difficult to get a job in industry out of college with a 4.0 GPA. A lot of hiring managers see that as a red flag. They prefer to see a mix of As and Bs with an internship or two thrown in, part-time jobs, and solid letters of reference. You know, a well-rounded person. Hiring managers are keen to pick up on personality traits and the 4.0 guys have to prove they can work with people, be a team player, and be personable. Oddly, because medicine is so tied to academia, numbers and pedigree trump everything else. You can do all the away rotations in the world and get great letters of recommendation proving how capable, focused, and easy to work with you are, but unless your numbers are in line with everyone else, it's unlikely you will be successful because these are not viewed as qualifications. Rather, the important "qualifications" are USMLE score (testing some obsecure biochemistry crap long forgotten), rank of medical school, number (not quality) of research experiences and publications. It's ridiculous.
USMLE should be no different than the bar exam, you should receive a pass or fail. It is supposed to be a licensing exam. There is also profound variation between the amount of prep time and resources given by schools. In my experience, state schools emphasize the test highly, including NBMEs with the curriculum, teaching to the test, and giving more than 4-5 weeks prep time. In contrast, most top 10 schools give minimal prep time and do not necessarily teach toward the exam. They mainly operate on the assumption that "you guys are all smart and will figure it out." It is seen as a great equalizer between schools, but in reality the environment in which the score was generated is radically different. This is why so many IMGs have 270+ given that they can prepare for each exam for about a year beforehand.
 
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USMLE should be no different than the bar exam, you should receive a pass or fail. It is supposed to be a licensing exam. There is also profound variation between the amount of prep time and resources given by schools. In my experience, state schools emphasize the test highly, including NBMEs with the curriculum, teaching to the test, and giving more than 4-5 weeks prep time. In contrast, most top 10 schools give minimal prep time and do not necessarily teach toward the exam. They mainly operate on the assumption that "you guys are all smart and will figure it out." It is seen as a great equalizer between schools, but in reality the environment in which the score was generated is radically different. This is why so many IMGs have 270+ given that they can prepare for each exam for about a year beforehand.
Top tier schools can also operate on name recognition as well. Hence why they don't have to teach information relevant to the boards (not that they care). That being said there are some good private MD schools that actively take the time to incorporate boards material into their lectures, while not exclusively focusing on it.
 
USMLE should be no different than the bar exam, you should receive a pass or fail. It is supposed to be a licensing exam. There is also profound variation between the amount of prep time and resources given by schools. In my experience, state schools emphasize the test highly, including NBMEs with the curriculum, teaching to the test, and giving more than 4-5 weeks prep time. In contrast, most top 10 schools give minimal prep time and do not necessarily teach toward the exam. They mainly operate on the assumption that "you guys are all smart and will figure it out." It is seen as a great equalizer between schools, but in reality the environment in which the score was radically different. This is why so many IMGs have 270+ given that they can prepare for each exam for about a year beforehand.

First off, I think it's a bit much to assume that you can will your way into a 270+...most people will never get a score like that even if they study for a year. Anybody who gets a score like that, regardless of the prep time, is gifted. Most US schools offer similar baseline boards prep and time off for study. The differences are largely negligible. IMG/FMG education varies so much from school to school that I don't think you can accurately assess how effective study time is for them. If they went to a Caribbean school that taught to Step 1 prep from day 1, they'd be in better shape approaching their study time than the guy in India who went to a med school thats mission isn't to feed its students into the US system.

Secondly, the USMLE at least offers some way to objectively compare applicants. If you took away the score, what is left to compare the basic knowledge or test-taking abilities of two potential residents? Everyone gets glowing remarks in their letters and MSPEs, and clinical grades vary so much from school to school that you have no basis for comparison. Fair or not, the Step 1 score is indeed the great equalizer. Is it a useful one? Well, people who rock the boards are less likely to fail their subspecialty boards, so residency directors who get high scoring residents have less to worry about later. Whether it makes them better residents or not, probably not.
 
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Fair or not, the Step 1 score is indeed the great equalizer. Is it a useful one? Well, people who rock the boards are less likely to fail their subspecialty boards, so residency directors who get high scoring residents have less to worry about later. Whether it makes them better residents or not, probably not.

We could also have a bench press competition or maybe a contest to see who can train to hold their breath the longest and it would be just as relevant.

If you took away the score, what is left to compare the basic knowledge or test-taking abilities of two potential residents?.

Quoting my previous post...

You can do all the away rotations in the world and get great letters of recommendation proving how capable, focused, and easy to work with you are, but unless your numbers are in line with everyone else, it's unlikely you will be successful because these are not viewed as qualifications. Rather, the important "qualifications" are USMLE score (testing some obsecure biochemistry crap long forgotten), rank of medical school, number (not quality) of research experiences and publications. It's ridiculous.

That plus a good overall interview experience and a genuine interest in the field and desire to be a part of the residency program you are interviewing at and your fit. If we could get rid of the numerical score on the usmle and let it serve its original purpose, then I'd argue residency programs would actually end up with better classes as they would be forced not to rely on their snobby usmle screening filter and more carefully evaluate candidates. What would end up happening is the arrogrant jerks having trouble matching instead of the poor soul who scored an oh-so-horrible 214 on step 1.
 
First off, I think it's a bit much to assume that you can will your way into a 270+...most people will never get a score like that even if they study for a year. Anybody who gets a score like that, regardless of the prep time, is gifted. Most US schools offer similar baseline boards prep and time off for study. The differences are largely negligible. IMG/FMG education varies so much from school to school that I don't think you can accurately assess how effective study time is for them. If they went to a Caribbean school that taught to Step 1 prep from day 1, they'd be in better shape approaching their study time than the guy in India who went to a med school thats mission isn't to feed its students into the US system.

Secondly, the USMLE at least offers some way to objectively compare applicants. If you took away the score, what is left to compare the basic knowledge or test-taking abilities of two potential residents? Everyone gets glowing remarks in their letters and MSPEs, and clinical grades vary so much from school to school that you have no basis for comparison. Fair or not, the Step 1 score is indeed the great equalizer. Is it a useful one? Well, people who rock the boards are less likely to fail their subspecialty boards, so residency directors who get high scoring residents have less to worry about later. Whether it makes them better residents or not, probably not.
To be fair the reason a 270+ is hard to get on USMLE Step 1 is bc it's > than 2 standard deviations above the mean. By definition, most medical students and doctors taking the exam won't ever achieve this score. Also this is my bias, but professor-made exams are not usually written in the USMLE Step 1 style. I've known people who dominated on professor-made exams, and absolutely falter on a standardized exam such as the USMLE that has largely tried to get away from rote memorization and has made the exam harder (images, heart sounds, sequential-test items, etc.). I'll see soon enough if our specialty boards tend to be this way or more rote memorization (so far I have felt like the latter).

The reason that the USMLE Step 1 has gotten harder is bc test writers know that this test is used for residency-cutoff purposes. It's gotten away from being a licensure exam which was the original intent.
 
We could also have a bench press competition or maybe a contest to see who can train to hold their breath the longest and it would be just as relevant.

Quoting my previous post...

That plus a good overall interview experience and a genuine interest in the field and desire to be a part of the residency program you are interviewing at and your fit. If we could get rid of the numerical score on the usmle and let it serve its original purpose, then I'd argue residency programs would actually end up with better classes as they would be forced not to rely on their snobby usmle screening filter and more carefully evaluate candidates. What would end up happening is the arrogrant jerks having trouble matching instead of the poor soul who scored an oh-so-horrible 214 on step 1.

You're sorely mistaken if you think arrogant jerks can't pass the "be nice on interview day" filter. Some of the worst people I know matched at amazing programs in competitive specialties, which we all know is about a lot more than Step 1 scores. Manipulators know how to manipulate, especially if only for the 6 hours of an interview day. If you took away USMLE scores PDs would just use some other "objective" criteria to filter applicants, like class rank, grades, or school ranking. There's no way a PD is going to sort through 500 applications to find a short list of ones with "good fit" or heavily rely on a subjective interview day that anyone can fake.

Using Step 1 scores as the filter is a fairly reasonable idea, in my opinion. It's a single score that is comparable across all examinations and it does a decent job of assessing your medical knowledge.

To be fair the reason a 270+ is hard to get on USMLE Step 1 is bc it's > than 2 standard deviations above the mean. By definition, most medical students and doctors taking the exam won't ever achieve this score. Also this is my bias, but professor-made exams are not usually written in the USMLE Step 1 style. I've known people who dominated on professor-made exams, and absolutely falter on a standardized exam such as the USMLE that has largely tried to get away from rote memorization and has made the exam harder (images, heart sounds, sequential-test items, etc.). I'll see soon enough if our specialty boards tend to be this way or more rote memorization (so far I have felt like the latter).

The reason that the USMLE Step 1 has gotten harder is bc test writers know that this test is used for residency-cutoff purposes. It's gotten away from being a licensure exam which was the original intent.

Well, there are certain aspects of the USMLE that resist its use as a residency-cutoff device. Like the fact that they refuse to publish percentiles.

While yes, the purpose of the exam was never to use it to compare individuals, but it's the fairest comparison tool we have these days. There are so many prep materials out there these days for cheap that the field is essentially level for anybody who wants to play. People should be thankful that Step 1 scores are used as cutoffs, because the alternative (class rank, grades, etc.) would be a much bigger crap-shoot.
 
While yes, the purpose of the exam was never to use it to compare individuals, but it's the fairest comparison tool we have these days. There are so many prep materials out there these days for cheap that the field is essentially level for anybody who wants to play. People should be thankful that Step 1 scores are used as cutoffs, because the alternative (class rank, grades, etc.) would be a much bigger crap-shoot.
How so? At least you're just competing against your class in this instance. If anything I would use USMLE Step 2 CK score which is much more correlative with medical knowledge and residency performance.

USMLE Step 1 knowledge is so far removed from clerkship knowledge and residency performance it's not even funny. It more rewards the PhDer than the clinician.
 
How so? At least you're just competing against your class in this instance. If anything I would use USMLE Step 2 CK score which is much more correlative with medical knowledge and residency performance.

USMLE Step 1 knowledge is so far removed from clerkship knowledge and residency performance it's not even funny. It more rewards the PhDer than the clinician.

Step 1 is far more clinical these days than when you took it, but yeah it is still mired heavily in basic science. That basic science, however, is the foundation of clinical medicine and we shouldn't forget that (it is, after all, our strong roots in basic science that makes us MDs vs PAs/NPs). Also, because Step 1 is very difficult, I think it well represents a student's capacity to learn large volumes of information and apply it. I think Step 1 is a well-made test. Its use as the end-all-be-all in residency admissions is not ideal, but I don't think it should be stripped out of the equation.

I agree that Step 2 CK should have increased importance, and I wish people took it as seriously as Step 1 because then it would be a more useful score.
 
It may be clinical with respect to testing in a "clinical vignette" but it's just window dressing for testing basic science factoids. Of course it's well made, it's standardized and getting more difficult as they find new ways to test things (the latest with adding "safety science"). The reason of course why it stays as a marker for residency selection, is bc it's tradition. USMLE Step 2 CK can be taken long after the application has been submitted which is the only reason it can't be used. Not surprisingly, of course, if you look at the literature, those who score quite well >240 wish to keep it numerically scored (to distinguish themselves above the pack) vs. everyone else wants it P/F. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3186267/

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USMLE should be no different than the bar exam, you should receive a pass or fail. It is supposed to be a licensing exam. There is also profound variation between the amount of prep time and resources given by schools. In my experience, state schools emphasize the test highly, including NBMEs with the curriculum, teaching to the test, and giving more than 4-5 weeks prep time. In contrast, most top 10 schools give minimal prep time and do not necessarily teach toward the exam. They mainly operate on the assumption that "you guys are all smart and will figure it out." It is seen as a great equalizer between schools, but in reality the environment in which the score was generated is radically different. This is why so many IMGs have 270+ given that they can prepare for each exam for about a year beforehand.

Yes, some schools give you an extra few weeks. But the test is as standardized as you can possibly get. 2 years, give or take, one test. Everyone knows about it going in. Step has not been pass/fail in a long, long time, so why act like this is some big injustice? Was anyone surprised that their poor step performance hurt their residency app?

And no, it doesnt correlate to whether someone will be a "good resident", however you define that. Those studies you are referring to are largely bull**** in terms of methodology and no real inferences can be drawn. Step results show this: you were given a goal. One test, more important than any other. How did you structure your life to get there? On some level, a 95th percentile scorer is better than the 50th.
 
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Well duh for that graph, DermViser. And everybody who's not AOA would want AOA to not be a factor in residency admissions.

Remember that everyone's a special snowflake who deserves to train at Brigham and if only the process selected for the ONE thing I am awesome at, the process would finally be fair.
 
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Well duh for that graph, DermViser. And everybody who's not AOA would want AOA to not be a factor in residency admissions. Remember that everyone's a special snowflake who deserves to train at Brigham and if only the process selected for the ONE thing I am awesome at, the process would finally be fair.
My point is that it's absolutely silly for one exam to nearly DETERMINE what field one goes into. If the average Step 1 score for Derm is 240, it's silly for someone with a 235 to say, I'm just packing up my cards now. It's not like when the Step 1 average was lower, that the field somehow got easier in content. Just look at Rads and how "not as competitive" as it is now. Does that mean one now does not have to be as smart to be a radiologist when it was competitive? Of course not.
 
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Yes, some schools give you an extra few weeks. But the test is as standardized as you can possibly get. 2 years, give or take, one test. Everyone knows about it going in. Step has not been pass/fail in a long, long time, so why act like this is some big injustice? Was anyone surprised that their poor step performance hurt their residency app?

And no, it doesnt correlate to whether someone will be a "good resident", however you define that. Those studies you are referring to are largely bullcrap in terms of methodology and no real inferences can be drawn. Step results show this: you were given a goal. One test, more important than any other. How did you structure your life to get there? On some level, a 95th percentile scorer is better than the 50th.
Dentistry has made all their NBDE exams pass/fail, which were numerically scored for the longest time.
 
Dentistry has made all their NBDE exams pass/fail, which were numerically scored for the longest time.

Why would we follow in their footsteps, though? Can you explain the logic? I don't see how going P/F is going to benefit ANYBODY.
 
My point is that it's absolutely silly for one exam to nearly DETERMINE what field one goes into. If the average Step 1 score for Derm is 240, it's silly for someone with a 235 to say, I'm just packing up my cards now. It's not like when the Step 1 average was lower, that the field somehow got easier in content. Just look at Rads and how "not as competitive" as it is now. Does that mean one now does not have to be smart to be a radiologist when it was competitive? Of course not.

Yeah but consider this:
1. Everyone knows that a lot rides on Step 1. It doesn't surprise anyone when they find out their 205 doesn't cut it for derm.
2. There are so many resources for Step 1 available these days, there's no excuse not to have access to the content needed to do well on the exam.

If it's not Step 1 that decides your fate, PDs will come up with something else. At least right now, you are largely in control of the tier of scores you will fall into.

Dentistry has made all their NBDE exams pass/fail, which were numerically scored for the longest time.

But they aren't all applying to residencies after they get their degree.
 
My point is that it's absolutely silly for one exam to nearly DETERMINE what field one goes into. If the average Step 1 score for Derm is 240, it's silly for someone with a 235 to say, I'm just packing up my cards now. It's not like when the Step 1 average was lower, that the field somehow got easier in content. Just look at Rads and how "not as competitive" as it is now. Does that mean one now does not have to be smart to be a radiologist when it was competitive? Of course not.

I don't think Step scores necessarily determine what field somebody goes into. Some people find a way to match despite having below average Step scores for their specialty of choice. I think the people that whine about it the most tend to be the lower scorers on the exam as evidenced by that graph you posted. They are in no way restricted from applying to more competitive specialties. That being said, if I were a program director, I would definitely consider Step I/II scores as important predictors of future academic success based on my own experience and knowledge of classmates who did well (almost all of them were hardworking, intelligent people) and classmates who did not; a lot of them slacked off or were perpetuators of "P=MD" until they "fell in love" with derm in third year and started to complain about Step scores. True story.
 
Why would we follow in their footsteps, though? Can you explain the logic? I don't see how going P/F is going to benefit ANYBODY.
Uh, those NBDE scores were previously used to decide who got fellowships (Orthodontics, Periodontics, etc.) Obviously fellowship PDs realized it was useless to extrapolate resident competency from a multiple choice exam, esp. one that tested basic science minutiae, many of which as PhD detail with no real, applicable clinical relevance. I highly doubt knowing whether a signal transduction cascade is G protein, tyrosin kinase, or cAMP mediated is that relevant.
 
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I don't think Step scores necessarily determine what field somebody goes into. Some people find a way to match despite having below average Step scores for their specialty of choice. I think the people that whine about it the most tend to be the lower scorers on the exam as evidenced by that graph you posted. They are in no way restricted from applying to more competitive specialties. That being said, if I were a program director, I would definitely consider Step I/II scores as important predictors of future academic success based on my own experience and knowledge of classmates who did well (almost all of them were hardworking, intelligent people) and classmates who did not; a lot of them slacked off or were perpetuators of "P=MD" until they "fell in love" with derm in third year and started to complain about Step scores. True story.
Yes, they are no way restricted in applying, matching is another story. I've also known classmates that aced course exams in basic science, and thus thought they were on track to do well, and only when doing board review realized there was a lot of information not taught in coursework, and were learning things for the first time in board review books and Qbanks. Or where they weren't used to thinking in the way USMLE questions force you to think and their sometimes interdisciplinary nature vs. being just a "Biochem" question or a "Physiology" question.
 
Uh, those NBDE scores were previously used to decide who got fellowships (Orthodontics, Periodontics, etc.) Obviously fellowship PDs realized it was useless to extrapolate resident competency from a multiple choice exam, esp. one that tested basic science minutiae, many of which as PhD detail with no real, applicable clinical relevance. I highly doubt knowing whether a signal transduction cascade is G protein, tyrosin kinase, or cAMP mediated is that relevant.

Dental fellowships aren't a required pathway to practice dentistry like how medical residencies are. I imagine that the dental fellowships operate how fellowships after residencies do, with much less emphasis on boards.

When did you take Step 1? I took it in 2012 and the cell biology and biochemistry stuff was a very small part of the exam, and it was almost always tied to disease processes as opposed to truly heavy basic science. Cell signaling, for example, takes up barely a page in First Aid and no questions about it went beyond the very extreme basics. My preclinical curriculum spent more time on that snooze-fest than Step 1 did. I didn't even have the TCA cycle memorized when I took Step 1.
 
Dental fellowships aren't a required pathway to practice dentistry like how medical residencies are. I imagine that the dental fellowships operate how fellowships after residencies do, with much less emphasis on boards.

When did you take Step 1? I took it in 2012 and the cell biology and biochemistry stuff was a very small part of the exam, and it was almost always tied to disease processes as opposed to truly heavy basic science. Cell signaling, for example, takes up barely a page in First Aid and no questions about it went beyond the very extreme basics. My preclinical curriculum spent more time on that snooze-fest than Step 1 did. I didn't even have the TCA cycle memorized when I took Step 1.
They are dental residencies, not fellowships.

I didn't say it was a large part of the exam. My point is that it was useless minutiae, that for all intents and purposes was not applicable to the clinical years, outside of answering esoteric pimp questions. One would be a fool to use diseases emphasized in basic science and First Aid as part of a clinical differential to an attending. You'd be laughed out of the room.
 
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Yes, they are no way restricted in applying, matching is another story. I've also known classmates that aced course exams in basic science, and thus thought they were on track to do well, and only when doing board review realized there was a lot of information not taught in coursework, and were learning things for the first time in board review books and Qbanks. Or where they weren't used to thinking in the way USMLE questions force you to think and their sometimes interdisciplinary nature vs. being just a "Biochem" question or a "Physiology" question.

I didn't say it was a large part of the exam. My point is that it was useless minutiae, that for all intents and purposes was not applicable to the clinical years, outside of answering esoteric pimp questions. One would be a fool to use diseases emphasized in basic science and First Aid as part of a clinical differential to an attending. You'd be laughed out of the room.

I guess the question now is by what metric should medical students separate themselves from the rest of the pack? AOA? Class ranking? Third year grades? Extracurriculars? LORs? All of these things vary highly by school, and Step I/II are probably the closest things we have to equalizers. Like @Wordead said, Step I is probably the most important test in medical school, and it's not like residencies or medical schools surprise their students with a national board exam after two years. Everybody knows about its importance and how much it matters to their future careers, yet when certain people don't do well on it, they whine about how it's unfair to be judged based on one test. Well then, what do you think should matter? A personal statement about how you saved a patient's life in derm clinic and now you know your destiny is to be a dermatologist?

I don't really get the argument against Step I at all. If we shift it to P/F, then the ability to compare applicants from different schools will certainly be diminished. I say the exam is more a reflection of your work ethic than knowledge of useless basic science minutiae.
 
You're sorely mistaken if you think arrogant jerks can't pass the "be nice on interview day" filter. Some of the worst people I know matched at amazing programs in competitive specialties, which we all know is about a lot more than Step 1 scores. Manipulators know how to manipulate, especially if only for the 6 hours of an interview day. If you took away USMLE scores PDs would just use some other "objective" criteria to filter applicants, like class rank, grades, or school ranking. There's no way a PD is going to sort through 500 applications to find a short list of ones with "good fit" or heavily rely on a subjective interview day that anyone can fake.

You would be surprised at how good a seasoned interviewer is at spotting arrogant jerks putting on a show. Part of the problem is most residency interviewers have no idea what they are doing when it comes to conducting an interview. The other part of the problem is that a good percentage of these people are arrogant jerks themselves and will pick the candidate that best reminds the interviewer of him/herself. You're failing to address the point that the USMLE is a lousy benchmark. Yes, it is no doubt objective. But so is a breath-holding contest.

Using Step 1 scores as the filter is a fairly reasonable idea, in my opinion. It's a single score that is comparable across all examinations and it does a decent job of assessing your medical knowledge.

I couldn't disagree more. Step 1 "does a decent job of assessing your medical knowledge"? Are you serious?
If it were about assessing medical knowledge, then there would be no reason to deny people the opportunity to improve their knowledge and re-take it. Furthermore, why is there a time limit on it if this is the purpose? It's a thinly veiled attempt to stratify medical students based on a combination of IQ, resources, and time devotion. It rewards a singular type of thinking and reasoning. It punishes careful and analytical thought processes in favor of pattern recognition, rote memorization, and selective ignorance of data.
 
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Uh, those NBDE scores were previously used to decide who got fellowships (Orthodontics, Periodontics, etc.) Obviously fellowship PDs realized it was useless to extrapolate resident competency from a multiple choice exam, esp. one that tested basic science minutiae, many of which as PhD detail with no real, applicable clinical relevance. I highly doubt knowing whether a signal transduction cascade is G protein, tyrosin kinase, or cAMP mediated is that relevant.

Right, so what will specialty residencies be based on then after Step is removed? Just pure 3rd year grades? 1st year? How are those metrics any better for medical students or residency programs?
 
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Yes, they are no way restricted in applying, matching is another story. I've also known classmates that aced course exams in basic science, and thus thought they were on track to do well, and only when doing board review realized there was a lot of information not taught in coursework, and were learning things for the first time in board review books and Qbanks. Or where they weren't used to thinking in the way USMLE questions force you to think and their sometimes interdisciplinary nature vs. being just a "Biochem" question or a "Physiology" question.

Exactly. Students I went to school with that relied on the school's advice to not study for step 1 during M1 and M2 and trust the curriculum got burned bad. Their low step 1 in no way indicates that they slacked off M1 and M2. They were often putting in many more hours trying to drink from the firehose as much as possible while their classmates were skipping class and studying FA and pathoma instead. The P=MD crowd were more often the closet gunners trying to keep their step 1 studying a secret knowing that the school exams were pointless while their naive but well-intentioned and hardworking classmates slaved away in front of class coursepacks.
 
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Exactly. Students I went to school with that relied on the school's advice to not study for step 1 during M1 and M2 and trust the curriculum got burned bad. Their low step 1 in no way indicates that they slacked off M1 and M2. They were often putting in many more hours trying to drink from the firehose as much as possible while their classmates were skipping class and studying FA and pathoma instead. The P=MD crowd were more often the closet gunners trying to keep their step 1 studying a secret knowing that the school exams were pointless while their naive but well-intentioned and hardworking classmates slaved away in front of class coursepacks.

Being naive and being unable to differentiate good advice from bad is still a negative attribute.
 
Right, so what will specialty residencies be based on then after Step is removed? Just pure 3rd year grades? 1st year? How are those metrics any better for medical students or residency programs?

Congratulations. This means you understand the problem. You are effectively asking what will take the place of the USMLE to make sure only the applicants who jump through the most hoops and endured the most pain will be rewarded with the cushiest lifestyle specialties. This is a very good question to ask. How could it possibly be fair that some 210 slacker gets to be a dermatologist? He is taking that spot away from a guy who suffered and endured so much more - that lifestyle, er I mean specialty, belongs to him! We need some sort of system to ensure that the 210 guy can never leave before 8PM, is paid a low salary, and is on call every weekend to pay for his sloth in med school, right?

DermViser's sig pic is spot on.
 
Congratulations. This means you understand the problem. You are effectively asking what will take the place of the USMLE to make sure only the applicants who jump through the most hoops and endured the most pain will be rewarded with the cushiest lifestyle specialties. This is a very good question to ask. How could it possibly be fair that some 210 slacker gets to be a dermatologist? He is taking that spot away from a guy who suffered and endured so much more - that lifestyle, er I mean specialty, belongs to him! We need some sort of system to ensure that the 210 guy can never leave before 8PM, is paid a low salary, and is on call every weekend to pay for his sloth in med school, right?

DermViser's sig pic is spot on.

I don't see a solution in the midst of all your sarcasm. There is no system that will be MORE fair.
 
I think the bottom line is that there will always be some standardized metric used to compare applicants, it's unavoidable. Be it step 1 or some other test, something of that sort is always going to be around. Step 1 is a combination of work ethic and talent. Does it mean that someone with a low step score can't be a successful dermatologist? Absolutely not! But here's what people know. Someone that got a 250+ worked very hard and is probably quite smart. Someone with a 220 probably didn't work as hard (or maybe didn't study as effectively) and/or isn't as talented as the person with a 250. But once again, this does NOT mean the person with the 220 can't be successful in any field in medicine! But as long as there are only a limited number of spots, the people with the highest scores are more likely to get the spot because it is a lower risk than accepting the person with a 220.
 
I don't see a solution in the midst of all your sarcasm. There is no system that will be MORE fair.

I take it back. You're missing the point entirely. The system is broken because it hands out lifestyle specialties as trophies and tries to be "fair" in determining who gets the trophy. People go into to specialties for the wrong reasons because of this. A solution would involve leveling the playing field so that people have more opportunities to pursue their desired specialty instead of being blacklisted after a bad usmle exam or a failed match cycle. To do this would require pretty major changes extending far beyond residency training. A more realistic short term solution would be to make USMLE pass/fail, or at least honors/pass/fail, trim the fat off the superfluous medical curriculum and incorporate an option of a research year or intern year. The research year being one through which students interested in subspecialties could distinguish themselves through actual work and tangible results rather than through a standardized multiple choice exam they are only allowed to take once. And the intern year (not a no-real-job observer year like M3) being for students interested in primary care to actually learn clinical skills and actually graduate medical school knowing how to practice medicine. Research would cease to be a meaningless hoop to jump through for applicants, would actually mean something, and would go a long way to helping students decide on a specialty by giving them exposure to the field.
 
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Not surprisingly, of course, if you look at the literature, those who score quite well >240 wish to keep it numerically scored (to distinguish themselves above the pack) vs. everyone else wants it P/F. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3186267/

Yep. Anytime the validity of the USMLE comes up on these forums, the 250+ crowd rushes in to defend it. They are, I'm sure, totally unbiased.
 
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I take it back. You're missing the point entirely. The system is broken because it hands out lifestyle specialties as trophies and tries to be "fair" in determining who gets the trophy. People go into to specialties for the wrong reasons because of this. A solution would involve leveling the playing field so that people have more opportunities to pursue their desired specialty instead of being blacklisted after a bad usmle exam or a failed match cycle. To do this would require pretty major changes extending far beyond residency training. A more realistic short term solution would be to make USMLE pass/fail, or at least honors/pass/fail, trim the fat off the superfluous medical curriculum and incorporate an option of a research year or intern year. The research year being one through which students interested in subspecialties could distinguish themselves through actual work and tangible results rather than through a standardized multiple choice exam they are only allowed to take once. And the intern year (not a no-real-job observer year like M3) being for students interested in primary care to actually learn clinical skills and actually graduate medical school knowing how to practice medicine. Research would cease to be a meaningless hoop to jump through for applicants, would actually mean something, and would go a long way to helping students decide on a specialty by giving them exposure to the field.

....I would ask whether you have ever done research before, given that you said research is based on actual work or results. It absolutely is not. It is hugely dependent on your lab, your research type, etc. Not to mention research does NOT give you more exposure to a field. Not in the least. It gives you more exposure to one tiny aspect of that field.

Not to mention, your system would simply make it ultra competitive to get a research year in a good lab. In addition, people can ALREADY do a research year to beef up their application and network their way into a specialty. People match into derm, plastics, ent with 220s every year.
 
My point is that it's absolutely silly for one exam to nearly DETERMINE what field one goes into. If the average Step 1 score for Derm is 240, it's silly for someone with a 235 to say, I'm just packing up my cards now. It's not like when the Step 1 average was lower, that the field somehow got easier in content. Just look at Rads and how "not as competitive" as it is now. Does that mean one now does not have to be as smart to be a radiologist when it was competitive? Of course not.

This happens ALL THE TIME. And it's getting worse. Passing was low 180s or something when I took it. We're talking about people afraid to apply for certain specialties because they are 50-60 points above passing.

Yes, the USMLE has some value when you are talking about someone who passed by 1 point. But inasmuch as this is supposed to a P/F test, students interestingly have kept it that way by self-selecting. In recent years around 230 was the magic number you had to pass to feel comfortable applying for competitive specialties. Now it's getting to be around 240. I wouldn't be surprised to see averages in some specialties nearing 260 in 10-15 years..
 
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I take it back. You're missing the point entirely. The system is broken because it hands out lifestyle specialties as trophies and tries to be "fair" in determining who gets the trophy. People go into to specialties for the wrong reasons because of this. A solution would involve leveling the playing field so that people have more opportunities to pursue their desired specialty instead of being blacklisted after a bad usmle exam or a failed match cycle. To do this would require pretty major changes extending far beyond residency training. A more realistic short term solution would be to make USMLE pass/fail, or at least honors/pass/fail, trim the fat off the superfluous medical curriculum and incorporate an option of a research year or intern year. The research year being one through which students interested in subspecialties could distinguish themselves through actual work and tangible results rather than through a standardized multiple choice exam they are only allowed to take once. And the intern year (not a no-real-job observer year like M3) being for students interested in primary care to actually learn clinical skills and actually graduate medical school knowing how to practice medicine. Research would cease to be a meaningless hoop to jump through for applicants, would actually mean something, and would go a long way to helping students decide on a specialty by giving them exposure to the field.

Meh, it all comes down to you viewing these lifestyle specialties as trophies, which is not everyone's view. I really think you are overstating the amount of people that go into specialties for "the wrong reasons". People get rewarded in any career based on how well they match up against others, medicine is no different. If someone gets a 260 and decides "hey, I think I'll check out derm, the material is pretty cool, and they have a pretty good lifestyle! Family is important to me, so it seems like a good fit". What is wrong with that??? Why is it so taboo to want to have a life outside of medicine? Many people are interested in a variety of different specialties, and if they use lifestyle to differentiate between them, so be it. They shouldn't be looked down upon for not wanting to sacrifice their life outside of medicine.
 
....I would ask whether you have ever done research before, given that you said research is based on actual work or results. It absolutely is not. It is hugely dependent on your lab, your research type, etc. Not to mention research does NOT give you more exposure to a field. Not in the least. It gives you more exposure to one tiny aspect of that field.

Not to mention, your system would simply make it ultra competitive to get a research year in a good lab. In addition, people can ALREADY do a research year to beef up their application and network their way into a specialty. People match into derm, plastics, ent with 220s every year.

You asked me to propose a solution. So I humored you. Do you have a better idea you can come up with in a few minutes?
Have you done research? If you can't be productive and turn out multiple first author papers in a year, that's a problem. Yeah there would be logistics involved on the school's end and the student's end to make sure you are placed appropriately. I'm sorry I can't have all those details ironed out for you in a half hour. You also seemed to assume that I only meant basic science research. I did not. You can get a good exposure to many fields through basic, translational, and clinical research. Especially if your goal is academics, which is what almost everyone applying for competitive specialties promises is true. :rolleyes:
 
I take it back. You're missing the point entirely. The system is broken because it hands out lifestyle specialties as trophies and tries to be "fair" in determining who gets the trophy. People go into to specialties for the wrong reasons because of this. A solution would involve leveling the playing field so that people have more opportunities to pursue their desired specialty instead of being blacklisted after a bad usmle exam or a failed match cycle. To do this would require pretty major changes extending far beyond residency training. A more realistic short term solution would be to make USMLE pass/fail, or at least honors/pass/fail, trim the fat off the superfluous medical curriculum and incorporate an option of a research year or intern year. The research year being one through which students interested in subspecialties could distinguish themselves through actual work and tangible results rather than through a standardized multiple choice exam they are only allowed to take once. And the intern year (not a no-real-job observer year like M3) being for students interested in primary care to actually learn clinical skills and actually graduate medical school knowing how to practice medicine. Research would cease to be a meaningless hoop to jump through for applicants, would actually mean something, and would go a long way to helping students decide on a specialty by giving them exposure to the field.

Dude, Step 1 is a level playing field. The availability of resources, ample time to prepare, and universal knowledge of its importance puts the responsibility squarely on the student. HMS and Hopkins don't hold the keys to some super secret qbank, and people on the islands who unfortunately couldn't get into US schools have a shot to redeem themselves with this test. It's very fair. Having students vey for research positions would make that the bottle-neck, and that would get less fair far quicker.

But now the question is whether the test is a useful way to assess a medical student's knowledge or if it predicts success as a resident. That data goes back and forth. I don't see any compelling reason to throw the USMLE scoring system out with the bathwater though.
 
If someone gets a 260 and decides "hey, I think I'll check out derm, the material is pretty cool, and they have a pretty good lifestyle! Family is important to me, so it seems like a good fit". What is wrong with that??? Why is it so taboo to want to have a life outside of medicine?

2 things. First, I have never, ever heard of somebody unexpectedly ending up with a 260 on step 1. Second, there are plenty of uncompetitive fields that can provide lots of personal time away from work.
 
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2 things. First, I have never, ever heard of somebody unexpectedly ending up with a 260 on step 1. Second, there are plenty of uncompetitive fields that can provide lots of personal time away from work.

I guess I just don't understand why you think it's such a sin to go into some of the competitive fields...seems kind of like bitterness to me, no offense.
 
You asked me to propose a solution. So I humored you. Do you have a better idea you can come up with in a few minutes?
Have you done research? If you can't be productive and turn out multiple first author papers in a year, that's a problem. Yeah there would be logistics involved on the school's end and the student's end to make sure you are placed appropriately. I'm sorry I can't have all those details ironed out for you in a half hour. You also seemed to assume that I only meant basic science research. I did not. You can get a good exposure to many fields through basic, translational, and clinical research. Especially if your goal is academics, which is what almost everyone applying for competitive specialties promises is true. :rolleyes:

Umm, I'm fine with the current system. You are the one complaining about the system, so the onus is on you to provide a better one. As you are unable to, well, perhaps there is no need to complain about the system.

And yes, I have done a ton of research - basic science, clinical, translational, industry. I have published very quickly in some cases, and had projects go kaput. The amount of control I had over the results was not significant - a productive, generous PI was the key. Mandatory research just encourages shoddier research and gives an enormous advantage to students at large, well-funded schools.
 
....I would ask whether you have ever done research before, given that you said research is based on actual work or results. It absolutely is not. It is hugely dependent on your lab, your research type, etc. Not to mention research does NOT give you more exposure to a field. Not in the least. It gives you more exposure to one tiny aspect of that field.

Not to mention, your system would simply make it ultra competitive to get a research year in a good lab. In addition, people can ALREADY do a research year to beef up their application and network their way into a specialty. People match into derm, plastics, ent with 220s every year.
I disagree with you - clinical research DOES give you more exposure to the field. The med students who take 1 year off to do a research year, usually do clinical research. Outside of MD/PhD candidates, not many do basic science research requiring a lab, as it requires a long time to get published.
 
Dude, Step 1 is a level playing field. The availability of resources, ample time to prepare, and universal knowledge of its importance puts the responsibility squarely on the student. HMS and Hopkins don't hold the keys to some super secret qbank, and people on the islands who unfortunately couldn't get into US schools have a shot to redeem themselves with this test. It's very fair. Having students vey for research positions would make that the bottle-neck, and that would get less fair far quicker.

But now the question is whether the test is a useful way to assess a medical student's knowledge or if it predicts success as a resident. That data goes back and forth. I don't see any compelling reason to throw the USMLE scoring system out with the bathwater though.

It's my fault for falling for Wordead's red herring. The issue is that the USMLE has too much influence on career choice. Not how good of a program you will match at, but into which specialty entirely. We could take some of the importance off it by simply using a different scoring system with score bands and where you max out your score beyond a certain point if you don't want to go all the way pass/fail. This would hopefully prevent the nonsense of a 229 getting screened while a 231 matches.
 
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