What is good about the match?

[evilbooyaa]

I'm sure they probably don't - and I'm sure I'd eat my words and go if they offered an interview. But Pittsburgh is just the worst.

You're more than entitled to your (crap) opinion, but just out of curiosity - why you hatin', brah?

It wouldn't help more ppl match. It would help prevent more ppl from ending up in regions they don't want to be.



I'd be fine with this but programs would not be since they may have not even interviewed the other person and have 0 interest in them.

I believe SouthernIM has posted my thoughts precisely.

If lower-tier programs in competitive specialties were having issues filling their spots year after year, then it's because of 1) they're dumb and don't rank enough people or 2) the system is crap. I'm going to guess it's 1 most of the time.

There are people out there that do not match in the top 10 of their rank list. Your "solution" makes those people go from matching somewhere to not matching. That is not the only problem with your proposal, but as you are someone who is going into ophtho, I'm sure you've heard of people falling out of the top 10 of rank lists.

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[Wordead]

You're more than entitled to your (crap) opinion, but just out of curiosity - why you hatin', brah?

Ugly people, no culture, bad food, crappy sports teams.

I'm from Philly.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Ugly people, no culture, bad food, crappy sports teams.

I'm from Philly.

I go to school in Philly, so I'm glad I can actually discuss both sides of this:

Ugly people - I'll admit there are more attractive people in Philly. There are also more PEOPLE in philly, including homeless people. That being said, weekday happy hours in Center City are filled with attractive people getting off work.

No culture - The city itself is improving, but it's likely less culture than Philly (again, this is due to the size of the city/# of people rather than some other factor).

Bad food - Cheesesteaks from Tony Luke's and Dalessandro's are delicious, I'll give you that. I guess a lot of people don't like the Primanti Bros. Fries + coleslaw sandwich. Besides that, we have pierogies, which are crazy good, but not necessarily super well-known for them.

Crappy sports teams - This is where we're going to fight. Steelers > Eagles all time (and in recent history). Penguins > Flyers all time (and in recent history).

The one thing I'll give you is that in recent history, Phillies have given more to the city than the Pirates. Although that trend may be changing as well. We'll see how this season goes.

As for the 76ers, I can't take a team seriously that tries to tank for a top draft pick from game 1. I enjoyed watching them when they had AI, Evan Turner, and Spencer Hawes a couple years ago, but I can't watch just MCW anymore.

 

[rocketbooster]

You're more than entitled to your (crap) opinion, but just out of curiosity - why you hatin', brah?



I believe SouthernIM has posted my thoughts precisely.

If lower-tier programs in competitive specialties were having issues filling their spots year after year, then it's because of 1) they're dumb and don't rank enough people or 2) the system is crap. I'm going to guess it's 1 most of the time.

There are people out there that do not match in the top 10 of their rank list. Your "solution" makes those people go from matching somewhere to not matching. That is not the only problem with your proposal, but as you are someone who is going into ophtho, I'm sure you've heard of people falling out of the top 10 of rank lists.

Actually I only heard of one person not matching in their top 10. They went on like 15 interviews with a good range of low to top tier and didn't match period lol. Everyone I know who matched did so in their top 10. haha I better go doublecheck the ophtho match thread to make sure that's true.

 

[username456789]

Actually I only heard of one person not matching in their top 10. They went on like 15 interviews with a good range of low to top tier and didn't match period lol. Everyone I know who matched did so in their top 10. haha I better go doublecheck the ophtho match thread to make sure that's true.

The bigger issue is with GETTING interviews, particularly in competitive fields. In dermatology, for example, if you're lucky you get 1 interview per 10 programs applied to. Your idea is obviously horrendous for these applicants. Maybe you meant 10 interviews? But it doesn't sound like you did.

Either way, your idea is terrible, would not address the actual issue (number of spots vs number of applicants), and smacks of nothing more than sour grapes.

 

[rocketbooster]

The bigger issue is with GETTING interviews, particularly in competitive fields. In dermatology, for example, if you're lucky you get 1 interview per 10 programs applied to. Your idea is obviously horrendous for these applicants. Maybe you meant 10 interviews? But it doesn't sound like you did.

Either way, your idea is terrible, would not address the actual issue (number of spots vs number of applicants), and smacks of nothing more than sour grapes.

If everyone was limited to 10 programs, then the average person would get more interviews because each program would have fewer applicants to choose from. Right now you have the top applicants going on 15 interviews even though most match in their top 5 anyway. Interviews would be distributed evenly.

But sure maybe 10 max interviews is the another way you could do it.

 

[Kaputt]

If everyone was limited to 10 programs, then the average person would get more interviews because each program would have fewer applicants to choose from. Right now you have the top applicants going on 15 interviews even though most match in their top 5 anyway. Interviews would be distributed evenly.

But sure maybe 10 max interviews is the another way you could do it.

No, this is the dumbest idea ever because it would undermine the whole point of the match. With the match as it is now, there is no penalty for the applicant to try to get into the best program they possibly can. They apply to as many places as they like, and then when they get their interviews, they can rank them according to their true preferences.

With your limit of 10 rule, people would not be able to apply to reaches. They would have to predict which places they'd have the best shot at, and apply to those places. This would only hurt applicants.

I, personally, would not have applied to the program I matched at (which was #1 on my ROL) had I been limited to 10 programs. I would have considered it a reach and wouldn't have bothered.

 

[Wordead]

I go to school in Philly, so I'm glad I can actually discuss both sides of this:

Ugly people - I'll admit there are more attractive people in Philly. There are also more PEOPLE in philly, including homeless people. That being said, weekday happy hours in Center City are filled with attractive people getting off work.

No culture - The city itself is improving, but it's likely less culture than Philly (again, this is due to the size of the city/# of people rather than some other factor).

Bad food - Cheesesteaks from Tony Luke's and Dalessandro's are delicious, I'll give you that. I guess a lot of people don't like the Primanti Bros. Fries + coleslaw sandwich. Besides that, we have pierogies, which are crazy good, but not necessarily super well-known for them.

Crappy sports teams - This is where we're going to fight. Steelers > Eagles all time (and in recent history). Penguins > Flyers all time (and in recent history).

The one thing I'll give you is that in recent history, Phillies have given more to the city than the Pirates. Although that trend may be changing as well. We'll see how this season goes.

As for the 76ers, I can't take a team seriously that tries to tank for a top draft pick from game 1. I enjoyed watching them when they had AI, Evan Turner, and Spencer Hawes a couple years ago, but I can't watch just MCW anymore.

I mean.....it sounds like we pretty much agree. I dont even disagree with the sports points. Except steelers eagles....I mean come on. Nobody wants to watch steelers games. Probably one of the most predictable, unimaginative offenses in the league. And the defense isnt even good anymore. If you mean the glory superbowl days, sure.

And when I was talking about food, I wasn't even thinking of cheesesteaks (which frankly I think are rather overrated except as drunk food). More that in any given neighborhood, if I want bomb ass indian or ethiopian food or whatever at midnight, I can get it. Not so much in Pittsburgh, which is just a super white bread city considering its size.

 

[mmmcdowe]

No, this is the dumbest idea ever because it would undermine the whole point of the match. With the match as it is now, there is no penalty for the applicant to try to get into the best program they possibly can. They apply to as many places as they like, and then when they get their interviews, they can rank them according to their true preferences.

With your limit of 10 rule, people would not be able to apply to reaches. They would have to predict which places they'd have the best shot at, and apply to those places. This would only hurt applicants.

I, personally, would not have applied to the program I matched at (which was #1 on my ROL) had I been limited to 10 programs. I would have considered it a reach and wouldn't have bothered.

Two of my top three choices (included my #1 and my match) would not have made the cut had I only applied to 10. In fact, only one of the five programs I had in mind as my "top picks" pre-interview stayed in my top 5 post-interview.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I mean.....it sounds like we pretty much agree. I dont even disagree with the sports points. Except steelers eagles....I mean come on. Nobody wants to watch steelers games. Probably one of the most predictable, unimaginative offenses in the league. And the defense isnt even good anymore. If you mean the glory superbowl days, sure.

Yeah, but we have 2 superbowls in the past 10 years. We have more superbowl wins than any team in the league. Eagles have 0.... ever. We'll see if that changes with a team that plays really good offense and 0 defense. That plus Philly sports fans are likely the worst and most self-hating group of people to ever watch sports with.

And when I was talking about food, I wasn't even thinking of cheesesteaks (which frankly I think are rather overrated except as drunk food). More that in any given neighborhood, if I want bomb ass indian or ethiopian food or whatever at midnight, I can get it. Not so much in Pittsburgh, which is just a super white bread city considering its size.

Eh, not necessarily true. I don't know where you're getting indian or ethiopian food at midnight in Philly. I'd be interested in knowing the names of those places (PM them to me if you prefer). Most of my post midnight food is at local pizza/sandwich places or wawa. Pretty similar to how it is in Pittsburgh.

As to cheesesteaks being drunk food - I'll agree on Pat's and Geno's, but a place with good quality steak, like Tony Luke's is good whenever. Also, I don't think they're open at the time when drunk food would be accepted.

I think when people think of Pittsburgh (especially if they've never been here) they think it's a bunch of white rednecks. Which is pretty much correct once you get about an hour out of the city. Most of the city and suburbs are just normal white people (with a couple minorities thrown in for good measure).

 

[KnuxNole]

I've never understood what the big deal about "culture" is, that some people(not here, in general) rage on about so much. Someone once mentioned due to diversity in races and museums/theater. I personally hate musical theater operas, and museums are kinda boring. And diversity is well...good for some people, I'm indifferent to it.

Besides at midnight, American food is WAY better than Ethopian/Indian food. If I'm drunk and hungry, I want some gooooood stuff. /flameshield.

I don't even know what Ethopian food even is! /biggerflameshield

 

[Wordead]

Yeah, but we have 2 superbowls in the past 10 years. We have more superbowl wins than any team in the league. Eagles have 0.... ever. We'll see if that changes with a team that plays really good offense and 0 defense. That plus Philly sports fans are likely the worst and most self-hating group of people to ever watch sports with.

Eh, not necessarily true. I don't know where you're getting indian or ethiopian food at midnight in Philly. I'd be interested in knowing the names of those places (PM them to me if you prefer). Most of my post midnight food is at local pizza/sandwich places or wawa. Pretty similar to how it is in Pittsburgh.

As to cheesesteaks being drunk food - I'll agree on Pat's and Geno's, but a place with good quality steak, like Tony Luke's is good whenever. Also, I don't think they're open at the time when drunk food would be accepted.

I think when people think of Pittsburgh (especially if they've never been here) they think it's a bunch of white rednecks. Which is pretty much correct once you get about an hour out of the city. Most of the city and suburbs are just normal white people (with a couple minorities thrown in for good measure).

I would definitely agree that Philly fans are amongst the worst in the world. Steelers fans are generally not too bad, in my experience. Ill need to find the indian place's name....cant remember off the top of my head, its something somewhat generic and the place is super ghetto, but by far the best indian food ive had outside of India.

I've never understood what the big deal about "culture" is, that some people(not here, in general) rage on about so much. Someone once mentioned due to diversity in races and museums/theater. I personally hate musical theater operas, and museums are kinda boring. And diversity is well...good for some people, I'm indifferent to it.

Besides at midnight, American food is WAY better than Ethopian/Indian food. If I'm drunk and hungry, I want some gooooood stuff. /flameshield.

I don't even know what Ethopian food even is! /biggerflameshield

Dont know what ethiopian food is, but american food is way better? Okkkkk

If you want to just be surrounded by white people, not go to museums/theater/etc, and eat burgers, sounds like you belong in Pittsburgh

 

[DermViser]

I've never understood what the big deal about "culture" is, that some people(not here, in general) rage on about so much. Someone once mentioned due to diversity in races and museums/theater. I personally hate musical theater operas, and museums are kinda boring. And diversity is well...good for some people, I'm indifferent to it.

Besides at midnight, American food is WAY better than Ethopian/Indian food. If I'm drunk and hungry, I want some gooooood stuff. /flameshield.

I don't even know what Ethopian food even is! /biggerflameshield

Most likely bc you're white.

 

[KnuxNole]

I would definitely agree that Philly fans are amongst the worst in the world. Steelers fans are generally not too bad, in my experience. Ill need to find the indian place's name....cant remember off the top of my head, its something somewhat generic and the place is super ghetto, but by far the best indian food ive had outside of India.



Dont know what ethiopian food is, but american food is way better? Okkkkk

If you want to just be surrounded by white people, not go to museums/theater/etc, and eat burgers, sounds like you belong in Pittsburgh

Well, I am a sucker for hot dogs and BURGERS D:

Well, other races are nice to hang around too! But yeah, museums/theaters are boring as ****. Well ok, seeing dinosaur bones is cool. It's not exciting at the least for me, and has no redeeming factors whatsoever...it's good for those that like those stuff however...

 

[KnuxNole]

Most likely bc you're white.

True...I am a dirty white boy

 

[DermViser]

True...I am a dirty white boy

No, I'm saying diversity really isn't that important to people as they say it is. The ones who want "diversity" are really those who want to not be only surrounded by people not like them. It's a very different feeling when you're one skin color and EVERYONE around you is another. It does create some awkwardness.

 

[KnuxNole]

I see what you're saying, and that always gets me confused. For ex: an asian individual wishing for diversity but only ever talks to the other asian and ignores everyone else. As long as you're laid back, nice and like to have fun, that's all that matters. If it's a group with 6 different races, that's awesome. If it's filled with only 1 race, that's fine too.

I can also understand someone feeling awkwardness of being surrounded by people who all look different from them. However, I hope those people don't feel intimidated or shunned from those cities. People are a lot friendly than one expects. eh, sure doesn't make everyone happy, but I'm sure someone will expand on this further *shrug*

 

[DermViser]

I see what you're saying, and that always gets me confused. For ex: an asian individual wishing for diversity but only ever talks to the other asian and ignores everyone else. As long as you're laid back, nice and like to have fun, that's all that matters. If it's a group with 6 different races, that's awesome. If it's filled with only 1 race, that's fine too.

*shrug*

I wouldn't take it that far. I'm saying the more comfortable you can be bc you have an Asian group IN ADDITION to everyone else.

 

[KnuxNole]

I wouldn't take it that far. I'm saying the more comfortable you can be bc you have an Asian group IN ADDITION to everyone else.

That makes sense. I mainly get confused when people take it to extremes.

 

[Wordead]

I see what you're saying, and that always gets me confused. For ex: an asian individual wishing for diversity but only ever talks to the other asian and ignores everyone else. As long as you're laid back, nice and like to have fun, that's all that matters. If it's a group with 6 different races, that's awesome. If it's filled with only 1 race, that's fine too.

I can also understand someone feeling awkwardness of being surrounded by people who all look different from them. However, I hope those people don't feel intimidated or shunned from those cities. People are a lot friendly than one expects. eh, sure doesn't make everyone happy, but I'm sure someone will expand on this further *shrug*

Closed mindedness is the same regardless of race....and frankly I'd classify anyone with relatively few friends of other races as closed minded.

I don't even understand how you could not want to be around people from different cultures and perspectives.

 

[KnuxNole]

To be fair though, some places are hard to find other races. I know in some places, the token black guy really is one of the few black people in the entire town! So, they might be open minded, but only have befriended specific races via the internet

 

[username456789]

Closed mindedness is the same regardless of race....and frankly I'd classify anyone with relatively few friends of other races as closed minded.

I don't even understand how you could not want to be around people from different cultures and perspectives.

I didn't (knowingly) meet a Jewish person until my freshman year of college.

There were 2 black students in my entire high school (~1200 kids total across 4 grades).

Your criteria kinda suck.

Also, to play devil's advocate, I see nothing wrong with not actively seeking out people from different cultures and perspectives. It may not jive with what you or I tend to practice, but for many people they are quite content and happy to live and work with their own kind. Actively discriminating against other groups, however, is an entirely different topic.

 

[Wordead]

I didn't (knowingly) meet a Jewish person until my freshman year of college.

There were 2 black students in my entire high school (~1200 kids total across 4 grades).

Your criteria kinda suck.

Also, to play devil's advocate, I see nothing wrong with not actively seeking out people from different cultures and perspectives. It may not jive with what you or I tend to practice, but for many people they are quite content and happy to live and work with their own kind. Actively discriminating against other groups, however, is an entirely different topic.

being happy to only be around people just like you is the precursor to ignorance and prejudice....all of your views of other groups is based on media or hearsay. And yeah, were you an ignorant high schooler because you had never met non-white people? Probably. Were your first interactions with jewish/black/asian/whatever people borderline offensive? Probably. And you don't live that way anymore - presumably because your life is enriched by knowing different people and not living in a homogenous mass?

 

[crimsonkid85]

Pardon my ignorance in this, but if there are more applicants than there are competitive slots, how is this any different from medical school admissions? The current admissions system for medical school seems to be fine.....why can't residency applications be like that, too?

 

[DermViser]

To be fair though, some places are hard to find other races. I know in some places, the token black guy really is one of the few black people in the entire town! So, they might be open minded, but only have befriended specific races via the internet

I agree it is much easier in some places than others. As much as I do not like the way Affirmative Action is implemented by medical schools (this is my opinion), I can completely understand how a person in medical school who is black can feel awkward when almost everyone ELSE in the class is White or Asian.

 

[DermViser]

Pardon my ignorance in this, but if there are more applicants than there are competitive slots, how is this any different from medical school admissions? The current admissions system for medical school seems to be fine.....why can't residency applications be like that, too?

Competing for a degree that is a minimum barrier to entry (MD) for residency, is different than competing for different specialties within medicine. In the latter, the competition is much, much more tighter. I thought you were at Harvard?

 

[DermViser]

I can also understand someone feeling awkwardness of being surrounded by people who all look different from them. However, I hope those people don't feel intimidated or shunned from those cities. People are a lot friendly than one expects. eh, sure doesn't make everyone happy, but I'm sure someone will expand on this further *shrug*

Yes, but you're not in close proximity all the time from people within a city, like you are in medical school.

 

[crimsonkid85]

Competing for a degree that is a minimum barrier to entry (MD) for residency, is different than competing for different specialties within medicine. In the latter, the competition is much, much more tighter. I thought you were at Harvard?

Oh? But you don't hear about a match for Ivies, where the acceptance rate is <10%. Or a match for the Rhodes. Or the Soros. Or the Marshalls. All of which are more competitive than matching into a internal medicine residency, or general surgery, or peds, or anesthesiology. The point is that the more competitive something is, the LESS value of something like a match. Obviously you DON'T go to Harvard, lol.

 

[DermViser]

Oh? But you don't hear about a match for Ivies, where the acceptance rate is <10%. Or a match for the Rhodes. Or the Soros. Or the Marshalls. All of which are more competitive than matching into a internal medicine residency, or general surgery, or peds, or anesthesiology. The point is that the more competitive something is, the LESS value of something like a match. Obviously you DON'T go to Harvard lol.

Who in God's name is talking about awards like the Rhodes/Soros/Marshalls/etc.? You mentioned medical school admissions vs. admission for residency.

We're talking about a CAREER OCCUPATION here. Funny how you leave out the competitive specialties, as they disprove your point. You actually think that the competition for medical schools is on par with those for residency? Really? What about those who do BA/MD programs and essentially skip that first filter.

You remind me of the quote: "I'd rather entrust the government of the United States to the first 400 people listed in the Boston telephone directory than to the faculty of Harvard University."

 

[Winged Scapula]

I miss Wawas.

 

[crimsonkid85]

Who in God's name is talking about awards like the Rhodes/Soros/Marshalls/etc.? You mentioned medical school admissions vs. admission for residency.

We're talking about a CAREER OCCUPATION here. Funny how you leave out the competitive specialties, as they disprove your point. You actually think that the competition for medical schools is on par with those for residency? Really? What about those who do BA/MD programs and essentially skip that first filter?

What they have in common is the selection process. If you think getting into Derm is more competitive than than a Rhodes fellowship -- you're delusional. Did you even read the Forbes article? The point advanced in the article was that the match was created during a time when there were far more slots than there were applicants -- a fact that is no longer true. It has nothing to do with career occupation. If that were true, then the match wouldn't come into play until the final differentiation process of FELLOWSHIP, not residency. You are living proof that Derm still isn't selective enough. ;p

 

[Psai]

What they have in common is the selection process. If you think getting into Derm is more competitive than than a Rhodes fellowship -- you're delusional. Did you even read the Forbes article? The point advanced in the article was that the match was created during a time when there were far more slots than there were applicants -- a fact that is no longer true. It has nothing to do with career occupation. If that were true, then the match wouldn't come into play until the final differentiation process of FELLOWSHIP, not residency. You are living proof that Derm still isn't selective enough. ;p

Douche alert

 

[DermViser]

What they have in common is the selection process. If you think getting into Derm is more competitive than than a Rhodes fellowship -- you're delusional. Did you even read the Forbes article? The point advanced in the article was that the match was created during a time when there were far more slots than there were applicants -- a fact that is no longer true. It has nothing to do with career occupation. If that were true, then the match wouldn't come into play until the final differentiation process of FELLOWSHIP, not residency. You are living proof that Derm still isn't selective enough. ;p

Yup, bc it's not like one can get a career without getting a Rhodes fellowship. Look at all those careers in which the Rhodes fellowship is a minimum barrier to entry. You were comparing medical school admissions and admission to residency, nice detour to another topic.

 

[crimsonkid85]

Yup, bc it's not like one can get a career without getting a Rhodes fellowship. Look at all those fellowships in which the Rhodes fellowship is a minimum barrier to entry. You were comparing medical school admissions and admission to residency, nice detour to another topic.

It's too bad you never had to take the SAT when analogies were still being tested.

 

[DermViser]

Douche alert

Yup, his username of crimsonkid85 demonstrates that even before he posted.

 

[DermViser]

It's too bad you never had to take the SAT when analogies were still being tested.

Yes, let's compare our SAT scores. Wanna compare our AP Exam grades too?

 

[CherryRedDracul]

Yes, let's compare our SAT scores. Wanna compare our AP Exam grades too?

View attachment 180445

Dat negative canthal tilt. I pity his genetics.

 

[sazerac]

Pardon my ignorance in this, but if there are more applicants than there are competitive slots, how is this any different from medical school admissions? The current admissions system for medical school seems to be fine.....why can't residency applications be like that, too?

The match system solved two issues. One is related to fining a least cost / maximum gain to a scenario with many ranked desires by both parties. The other, oft neglected, solution it solved was the job offer contingent upon timing. Before the match, candidates would get residency offers but they were only valid for a small window of time. Candidates were vulnerable because they had to permanently accept or reject an offer before even finding out if they got an interview at a more desirable location.

In a sense, the match did make residency admissions like medical school admissions. The medical school admissions process is synchronized nationally. No school makes a premed a binding admission offer that is only valid for a week.

 

[crimsonkid85]

The match system solved two issues. One is related to fining a least cost / maximum gain to a scenario with many ranked desires by both parties. The other, oft neglected, solution it solved was the job offer contingent upon timing. Before the match, candidates would get residency offers but they were only valid for a small window of time. Candidates were vulnerable because they had to permanently accept or reject an offer before even finding out if they got an interview at a more desirable location.

In a sense, the match did make residency admissions like medical school admissions. The medical school admissions process is synchronized nationally. No school makes a premed a binding admission offer that is only valid for a week.

Thanks for the helpful reply. Regarding the second issue you raised -- which is the idea of a residency offer valid only for a short period of time... is there a reason why this couldn't be adapted to be more like that of med school admissions as well -- where once a school makes a offer for residency they can no longer retract the offer (unless due to extenuating circumstances like a student failing Step 2, or breaking the law, etc). And then there would be a common date for residency acceptances for medical students (say May 15), and the scramble date would be on May 16. Is there a downside to this that I am not appreciating?

 

[Anastomoses]

It's too bad you never had to take the SAT when analogies were still being tested.

hahahaha. You have no idea how many different ways I've had this thought when reading many of DermViser's posts. I used to think intelligence was intrinsically correlated with logic, but he's managed to get himself into derm so I'm trying to rework my theory around his type.

 

[username456789]

And yeah, were you an ignorant high schooler because you had never met non-white people? Probably. Were your first interactions with jewish/black/asian/whatever people borderline offensive? Probably.

I find your ridiculous assumptions to be much more offensive.

 

[chronicidal]

Thanks for the helpful reply. Regarding the second issue you raised -- which is the idea of a residency offer valid only for a short period of time... is there a reason why this couldn't be adapted to be more like that of med school admissions as well -- where once a school makes a offer for residency they can no longer retract the offer (unless due to extenuating circumstances like a student failing Step 2, or breaking the law, etc). And then there would be a common date for residency acceptances for medical students (say May 15), and the scramble date would be on May 16. Is there a downside to this that I am not appreciating?

The downside is that with residency programs, which usually have a smaller number of people than medical school classes, the task of predicting your yield is immensely difficult. Getting the exact number of people commit to your program that you have funding for would require an abundance of caution and turn almost the entire process into a waitlist-type dynamic with exploding (time-limited) offers happening after the supposed real deadline.

 

[crimsonkid85]

The downside is that with residency programs, which usually have a smaller number of people than medical school classes, the task of predicting your yield is immensely difficult. Getting the exact number of people commit to your program that you have funding for would require an abundance of caution and turn almost the entire process into a waitlist-type dynamic with exploding (time-limited) offers happening after the supposed real deadline.

Hm. I definitely do see what you mean here. Although, one can make the argument that currently it is a ****show for people on waitlists for med schools, and that does seem to sort itself out in time for the first day of medical school class. After all, I think most med schools admit up to 2x's the number of students that will eventually matriculate due to the exact reason of not knowing where admitted students will go. But I suppose you're right in that if this were a residency program with only 2 slots -- the waitlist could be even more terrifying.

Separately, what do people think of some specialties still doing the SF/early match? Where does THAT come from historically?

 

[Sephiroth]

Thanks for the helpful reply. Regarding the second issue you raised -- which is the idea of a residency offer valid only for a short period of time... is there a reason why this couldn't be adapted to be more like that of med school admissions as well -- where once a school makes a offer for residency they can no longer retract the offer (unless due to extenuating circumstances like a student failing Step 2, or breaking the law, etc). And then there would be a common date for residency acceptances for medical students (say May 15), and the scramble date would be on May 16. Is there a downside to this that I am not appreciating?

For one, residencies generally start earlier than most med schools, so there's less time. The time lapses in waitlist movement, and allowing applicants adequate time to make a decision, could cause problems. As someone who made rather short-notice change of plans due to waitlist movement, this would likely be even worse for residency. Some specialties are very small, and so having one resident leave at the last minute would be a big hit, and I don't know exactly how the contracts work, but there may be issues there as well. Tough to say, though if you think about it, as long as everyone's preferences didn't change after the end of interviewing, then theoretically both systems should produce the same results. The real question should be why doesn't med school admissions use a match, to which the answer is likely due to things such as there being scholarships that can come up later to consider, and med schools often don't hard rank, but try to build a diverse class, and may pick from the waitlist based on what they think they need more of for the class as a whole. Residencies seem to not really do this.

hahahaha. You have no idea how many different ways I've had this thought when reading many of DermViser's posts. I used to think intelligence was intrinsically correlated with logic, but he's managed to get himself into derm so I'm trying to rework my theory around his type.

Intelligence isn't one single ability. There are many forms. An individual's relative proficiency in spatial awareness, memorization, logical reasoning, creative problem solving, etc. can all vary significantly.

 

[crimsonkid85]

For one, residencies generally start earlier than most med schools, so there's less time. The time lapses in waitlist movement, and allowing applicants adequate time to make a decision, could cause problems. As someone who made rather short-notice change of plans due to waitlist movement, this would likely be even worse for residency. Some specialties are very small, and so having one resident leave at the last minute would be a big hit, and I don't know exactly how the contracts work, but there may be issues there as well. Tough to say, though if you think about it, as long as everyone's preferences didn't change after the end of interviewing, then theoretically both systems should produce the same results. The real question should be why doesn't med school admissions use a match, to which the answer is likely due to things such as there being scholarships that can come up later to consider, and med schools often don't hard rank, but try to build a diverse class, and may pick from the waitlist based on what they think they need more of for the class as a whole. Residencies seem to not really do this.

I do understand that residencies start earlier, but this could be potentially remedied by just moving the entire application cycle earlier as well. Have schools start interviewing in August, finish interviewing by the end of January, and disseminate offers in late Feburary, with commitment from med students in March, and waitlists activating March-June/July.

I agree that as always waitlists will be terrible in terms of planning, and you bring a good point I did not think of employment contracts. Although -- how would this be different from the binding statements of matriculation that med students sign?

Overall, I think I agree with you that the biggest problem is in small specialties with only 2 spots, having one spot go unfilled at the last second due to waitlist can be terrifying for the remaining resident. (Call schedules, anyone?)

 

[DermViser]

hahahaha. You have no idea how many different ways I've had this thought when reading many of DermViser's posts. I used to think intelligence was intrinsically correlated with logic, but he's managed to get himself into derm so I'm trying to rework my theory around his type.

Yes, we've seen the vast "intelligence" in your posts. Don't confuse my disdain for you for lack of intelligence, Ms. Acetylcholine.

 

[Anastomoses]

Don't confuse my disdain for you for lack of intelligence, Ms. Acetylcholine.

Remarkably, I'm able to sort out the two issues separately. Admit that you're weak to logical fallacies.

And don't be so formal, you can call me Anastomoses.

 

[KnuxNole]

being happy to only be around people just like you is the precursor to ignorance and prejudice....all of your views of other groups is based on media or hearsay. And yeah, were you an ignorant high schooler because you had never met non-white people? Probably. Were your first interactions with jewish/black/asian/whatever people borderline offensive? Probably. And you don't live that way anymore - presumably because your life is enriched by knowing different people and not living in a homogenous mass?

That tends to be the way for a good portion for America, who never sees people from India or any Asian races

 

[Kaputt]

I do understand that residencies start earlier, but this could be potentially remedied by just moving the entire application cycle earlier as well. Have schools start interviewing in August, finish interviewing by the end of January, and disseminate offers in late Feburary, with commitment from med students in March, and waitlists activating March-June/July.

I agree that as always waitlists will be terrible in terms of planning, and you bring a good point I did not think of employment contracts. Although -- how would this be different from the binding statements of matriculation that med students sign?

Overall, I think I agree with you that the biggest problem is in small specialties with only 2 spots, having one spot go unfilled at the last second due to waitlist can be terrifying for the remaining resident. (Call schedules, anyone?)

This would be a logistical nightmare.

The match is a great algorithm. Some details could be ironed out in the process (like an earlier match for every specialty), but I far prefer the match vs the med school admissions process. Only people with 43 MCATs and multiple scholarship offers look back at the med school admissions process with anything but disdain. The residency match process gives you much more dignity.

 

[crimsonkid85]

This would be a logistical nightmare.

The match is a great algorithm. Some details could be ironed out in the process (like an earlier match for every specialty), but I far prefer the match vs the med school admissions process. Only people with 43 MCATs and multiple scholarship offers look back at the med school admissions process with anything but disdain. The residency match process gives you much more dignity.

Haha, I agree with you. I don't know about disdain, but I would definitely substitute the word "horror/nightmares".