Welcome to The UTRGV School of Podiatric Medicine!

[Treaty of Dorsi]

We'll see where the chips fall. I personally thought the big talk about applications and GPA was meaningless. The whole point of systems like TMDSAS and AMCAS and what not is to make it easy to pound off a bunch of applications for minimal additional fee/effort. By that logic when I applied to 8 schools years ago someone was sitting there saying "lots of apps, lots of apps" - I ghosted like 5 of those schools before ghosting was a term. Anyone can apply. An application is not a matriculation. Strong candidates with 3.8s and shadowing who previously wanted to be general surgeons and dermatologists aren't going to bail on that because they got a call from RGV the day after they applied telling them they were auto-accepted. They are going to sit out a year and reapply. If anything, the podiatry auto-acceptance desperation application service is a turn off. When I got 7 phonecalls the day after I applied I knew something was up. I was in fact slightly revulsed. Last of all, the location is going to work against them. People just saying "the Texas school" need to realize the state is enormous. This area isn't what people think of when they think Texas. When they ask their parents where is Edinburg, what is Harlingen/McAllen etc they're going to get an earful. I've been reading this forum for like a decade now. I'm open to being wrong but here's the thing. Everyone always thinks this profession is going to get better. That something is going to be different. The MCAT average or the GPA is going to go up - blah blah blah. It isn't. The current MCAT average for podiatrists converts to like 18 on the old scale. Its still pathetic. Looking forward to hearing about all those new residencies. Plenty of cities that have enough business to support them. Doubtful that a year of funding is the issue. My town had a podiatry residency. They couldn't meet the rearfoot requirement. They asked ortho for help. Ortho told them to go f&* themselves. They had to shut down.

If you’re gonna **** on the current students, atleast be accurate about it 😂 mcat’s at 21 LOL Honestly getting so tired of hearing the same negative comments over and over again!! You’re all repeating the same thing without adding any other insight.

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[wakaflocka88]

If you’re gonna **** on the current students, atleast be accurate about it 😂 mcat’s at 21 LOL Honestly getting so tired of hearing the same negative comments over and over again!! You’re all repeating the same thing without adding any other insight.

21 is terrible as well. No better than an 18. I scored a 30. Did fine in school and beyond. So ya, we’ve provided plenty of insight as we’ve been out practicing real world for many years combined and have seen a lot first hand. This again is just our opinion from our personal experience. You will have your own path.

 

[Treaty of Dorsi]

21 is terrible as well. No better than an 18. I scored a 30. Did fine in school and beyond. So ya, we’ve provided plenty of insight as we’ve been out practicing real world for many years combined and have seen a lot first hand. This again is just our opinion from our personal experience. You will have your own path.

I know 21 is terrible thus the “LOL”! I am talking about a different insight since you’re all saying the same thing. I respect your experience but it serves no purpose for all of you to be saying the same negative thing over and over by just changing a few minor details in the story. Feels more like an echo chamber at times in these forums.

 

[wakaflocka88]

I know 21 is terrible thus the “LOL”! I am talking about a different insight since you’re all saying the same thing. I respect your experience but it serves no purpose for all of you to be saying the same negative thing over and over by just changing a few minor details in the story. Feels more like an echo chamber at times in these forums.

Not really. Have you browsed public job sites/forums? You can come to your own conclusion. Schools don’t like telling students the truth.

 

[Treaty of Dorsi]

Not really. Have you browsed public job sites/forums? You can come to your own conclusion. Schools don’t like telling students the truth.

You’re literally telling me what I have read a 1000x! Literally my point is being made by you. I am well aware of the lack of well paying jobs. Repeating information that is already available to the public on the forum a 1000 times is just insanity imo. I think there’s better ways to use y’alls times than to use sdn as a complaint dump

 

[CutsWithFury]

I know 21 is terrible thus the “LOL”! I am talking about a different insight since you’re all saying the same thing. I respect your experience but it serves no purpose for all of you to be saying the same negative thing over and over by just changing a few minor details in the story. Feels more like an echo chamber at times in these forums.

Get through school and residency. Committing 7 years of your life. You will still be treated like $hit by other medical specialities at times because they think you are a dumba$$.

Then try and get a well paying job after all of that. Come back and tell us how you feel…..I’ll wait.

 

[Treaty of Dorsi]

Get through school and residency. Committing 7 years of your life. You will still be treated like $hit by other medical specialities at times because they think you are a dumba$$.

Then try and get a well paying job after all of that. Come back and tell us how you feel…..I’ll wait.

Didn’t I already say I know how bad the job market looks?! My point isn’t about podiatry and it’s abysmal outlook. It’s about the fact that it serves no purpose for you attendings to say the same thing over and over when the point has already been made.

PS: I already have plans set up so I don’t have to go into the job market once I’m done with residency….you may have to wait forever. Not every student goes into this career blindly even though that’s how y’all like to assume

 

[CutsWithFury]

Didn’t I already say I know how bad the job market looks?! My point isn’t about podiatry and it’s abysmal outlook. It’s about the fact that it serves no purpose for you attendings to say the same thing over and over when the point has already been made.

PS: I already have plans set up so I don’t have to go into the job market once I’m done with residency….you may have to wait forever. Not every student goes into this career blindly even though that’s how y’all like to assume

We are saying the same thing over and over again because we live it and we are educating. You haven’t even started working as you are in residency. You have no perspective. Talk to us once you work as an associate and get screwed over by your PP podiatry owner.

 

[zircushio]

We are saying the same thing over and over again because we live it and we are educating. You haven’t even started working as you are in residency. You have no perspective. Talk to us once you work as an associate and get screwed over by your PP podiatry owner.

Do you know the mustache man?

 

[Shiyuan]

Do you know the mustache man?

 

[DYK343]

It seems like there are a lot of doomsday predictions on SDN but no one really understands the landscape. The Texas Board of Regents requires an equal number of residency spots INSIDE THE STATE OF TEXAS for the class size. By 2026, we will need to create about 18-20 more first year spots in Texas. Governor Abbott recently signed legislation funding the first year of residency for new podiatry programs in Texas, so that new/existing programs don't have to wait 1 year to be funded by CMS GME. They'll be funded by the state immediately.

We should be proud of how far our profession has come which now led to the opening of the first state-sponsored school. The government and taxpayers of Texas think podiatry is that important. Yes, the tuition will be much lower, but that's not driving the applications. Being added to the TMDSAS that now lists podiatry as an option in the central application service for all Texas public medical, dental, veterinary schools is driving applications. Now applicants can learn about podiatry and with a single click, apply. It will lead to a net increase in applicants to other schools, not a decrease.

They said the exact same thing with western!!! They were not to graduate any residents from western unless they created an equal number of residencies to graduates. Harkless created almost zero!!!

I know because I graduated during that time. It was extraordinarily stressful to know 10% will not get a residency because of the western school/Harkless.

Call me doomsday all you want but history repeats itself and Harkless is at it again. $$$.

 

[PTPuser]

Please continue to tell us all the good and the bad. I appreciate it. I don't care that it's repetitive, cause I want to know.

My school isn't telling me and no mentors around here cares enough to even bother. So I appreciate it.

I came from bottom of the barrel in terms of socioeconomic. I don't have any gig in place like certain people do. So I really wanna learn from those who's already in the trenches.

 

[DYK343]

Please continue to tell us all the good and the bad. I appreciate it. I don't care that it's repetitive, cause I want to know.

My school isn't telling me and no mentors around here cares enough to even bother. So I appreciate it.

I came from bottom of the barrel in terms of socioeconomic. I don't have any gig in place like certain people do. So I really wanna learn from those who's already in the trenches.

Last 2-3 months 2nd year residency finish your CV/Resume/cover letter. Starting 3rd year start the search for a job aggressively. Don’t wait until the end of 3rd year.

 

[Weirdy]

I was one of those hopeful pre-pods coming on here as an applicant and the people who have been through it on here roast me all the time for it.

Now I am part of the echo chamber but for good reason- seeing it before even finishing residency. My how the tables have turned.

Also similar background like PTPuser but I knew how bad this field was prior to finishing school. At least it was an easy let down. I don't expect anything handed to me- but even with that caveat and embracing the suck, the whole point of getting on here and whining is to ensure prepods and students understand what they are getting into and are smart enough to look out for it and be prepared.

 

[wakaflocka88]

I was one of those hopeful pre-pods coming on here as an applicant and the people who have been through it on here roast me all the time for it.

Now I am part of the echo chamber but for good reason- seeing it before even finishing residency. My how the tables have turned.

Also similar background like PTPuser but I knew how bad this field was prior to finishing school. At least it was an easy let down. I don't expect anything handed to me- but even with that caveat and embracing the suck, the whole point of getting on here and whining is to ensure prepods and students understand what they are getting into and are smart enough to look out for it and be prepared.

I think this is key - realizing it and anticipating the preparation. Too many assume their training and fellowship should net them something. As long as you’re willing to outwork and out network them, you’ll do fine. All my co-residents landed rock solid jobs (non-PP) right after residency and even beat out “top” fellowship applicants. My former attendings were hiring for a MSG last year and asked me for recs and their criteria was someone not cocky, not over confident and knew how to stay within their zone. It’s a small
profession, so do good and it’ll come full circle eventually. It’s not all doom and gloom for all.

 

[icebreaker32]

I think this is key - realizing it and anticipating the preparation. Too many assume their training and fellowship should net them something. As long as you’re willing to outwork and out network them, you’ll do fine. All my co-residents landed rock solid jobs (non-PP) right after residency and even beat out “top” fellowship applicants. My former attendings were hiring for a MSG last year and asked me for recs and their criteria was someone not cocky, not over confident and knew how to stay within their zone. It’s a small
profession, so do good and it’ll come full circle eventually. It’s not all doom and gloom for all.

This is the main thing prospective and current students/residents need to know.……you NEED to outwork, out network, remain geographically open etc because the supply of good employed jobs is just NOT there in this profession. It is also why we don’t feel there is the need for another school until this is the case.

You also have the option to open you own practice or be employed at a mediocre job (or leave a bad job for a mediocre one) where you can get your numbers and become board certified in surgery and then look for a bettter job. Don’t just assume those mediocre jobs will be handed to you either, others will be applying, many others in saturated markets, trying to avoid the really bad jobs that persist in this profession. Even with standardized 3 year “surgical“ residencies, I think only 60 percent eventually become board certified in surgery. Opening and running your own practice is not easy, especially without a couple years working in PP. Banks are not necessarily going to loan you the money for it. Furthermore the younger generation seems to really value work life balance and opening your own practice does not typically allow for this, especially in the early years. A large amount of those doing well in this profession left an employed PP job and somehow, someway opened their own practice (family money/loan or small bank loan, spouse with a good job, living very frugal in your previous job and using your life’s savings, lots of nursing home work on the side etc). Some do very well, even not doing much surgery or having ownership in a surgical center in this setting. I think too many in solo PP are involved with improper billing and kickbacks etc, but that is another conversation. Another thing is many podiatrists that have those great MSG and Ortho jobs did not get them early in their career……I know many that were employed for a few years, then opened their own office and then a number of years later joined Ortho/MSG once they were well established and it was an obvious mutually beneficial relationship.

There are other healthcare careers that certainly have their issues also, but so many of them currently have unfilled jobs close to wherever you might want to live with a good salary, signing bonus, loan repayment, relocation and good benifits. This is not podiatry for most. A few will land a job just like those where they want to live right out of residency……it happens, but is not the norm. Every student thinks they will be the exception. A bit of optimism is definitely a good thing, but with a career path this long and expensive having a realistic outlook is important.

 

[Shadowfax12]

Reading through SDN makes you feel like going into podiatry is the biggest mistake of all time. This level of pessimism is unhealthy and couldn’t be further from the truth.

 

[CutsWithFury]

Reading through SDN makes you feel like going into podiatry is the biggest mistake of all time. This level of pessimism is unhealthy and couldn’t be further from the truth.

Awesome. Tell us your experiences.

 

[Pronation]

Reading through SDN makes you feel like going into podiatry is the biggest mistake of all time. This level of pessimism is unhealthy and couldn’t be further from the truth.

Pod private practice owner (with $100k associates) confirmed.

 

[Shadowfax12]

What experiences could I share that would change your mind? The tone in SDN is that podiatric care does nothing to positively impact patient lives

 

[Pronation]

What experiences could I share that would change your mind? The tone in SDN is that podiatric care does nothing to positively impact patient lives

There is not a single thread discussing "podiometric care" in regards to impacting patient lives. What is frequently discussed is the terrible job market and high probability for a terrible ROI going into podiatry. Here is a great article that I would recommend for you to read.

 

[PTPuser]

My hands are sore from all the nails I cut today in clinic but I still have the audacity to flip through 3 pages trying to find the posts about any of the pods here saying anything shadowfax12 suggested.

 

[air bud]

What experiences could I share that would change your mind? The tone in SDN is that podiatric care does nothing to positively impact patient lives

Oh we make a tremendous difference in patients lives. Just not compensated for it similar to other specialties that have a similar impact.

 

[deleted682934]

It is impossible to understate the saturation in this profession. We do a job that should easily command regular starting salaries of $300,000, but instead it is common for first year attendings to make $100,000 or less. Opening another school only will add to supply. It is not negativity, it is reality.

 

[Treaty of Dorsi]

Admissions of incoming students is at an all time low and rumor has it that the big schools only filled about 50% of their seats! With all this negativity on sdn, how in the world are people interested in applying to have an objective outlook?! Yes, it’s good to know the negatives, but I don’t see anyone of y’all making $250k+ talking about the good things in your life.

Is there no positives at all even though most of you regular posters make salaries in the 96-97 percentile of all US population? Nothing you all can tell incoming students to look forward to? It’s a shame to be that bitter imo

The more sdn turns sour, the more you discourage incoming students, the lower admissions, schools risk closing or being closed, the less seriously any other medical profession takes us, the less jobs there will be.

 

[air bud]

Admissions of incoming students is at an all time low and rumor has it that the big schools only filled about 50% of their seats! With all this negativity on sdn, how in the world are people interested in applying to have an objective outlook?! Yes, it’s good to know the negatives, but I don’t see anyone of y’all making $250k+ talking about the good things in your life.

Is there no positives at all even though most of you regular posters make salaries in the 96-97 percentile of all US population? Nothing you all can tell incoming students to look forward to? It’s a shame to be that bitter imo

The more sdn turns sour, the more you discourage incoming students, the lower admissions, schools risk closing or being closed, the less seriously any other medical profession takes us, the less jobs there will be.

You are on to us...

 

[air bud]

Admissions of incoming students is at an all time low and rumor has it that the big schools only filled about 50% of their seats! With all this negativity on sdn, how in the world are people interested in applying to have an objective outlook?! Yes, it’s good to know the negatives, but I don’t see anyone of y’all making $250k+ talking about the good things in your life.

Is there no positives at all even though most of you regular posters make salaries in the 96-97 percentile of all US population? Nothing you all can tell incoming students to look forward to? It’s a shame to be that bitter imo

The more sdn turns sour, the more you discourage incoming students, the lower admissions, schools risk closing or being closed, the less seriously any other medical profession takes us, the less jobs there will be.

I have a very nice bourbon collection. This includes zero bottles of horseytopper because it is terrible. But I do find it at retail fairly often and flip it on secondary for good stuff.

 

[CutsWithFury]

Admissions of incoming students is at an all time low and rumor has it that the big schools only filled about 50% of their seats! With all this negativity on sdn, how in the world are people interested in applying to have an objective outlook?! Yes, it’s good to know the negatives, but I don’t see anyone of y’all making $250k+ talking about the good things in your life.

Is there no positives at all even though most of you regular posters make salaries in the 96-97 percentile of all US population? Nothing you all can tell incoming students to look forward to? It’s a shame to be that bitter imo

The more sdn turns sour, the more you discourage incoming students, the lower admissions, schools risk closing or being closed, the less seriously any other medical profession takes us, the less jobs there will be.

I think the podiatry schools do a pretty poor job preparing their students to handle medicine rotations in residency. I think the fundamental understanding of medicine is pretty bad. I think most who are practicing podiatrists here would agree and at times, in their career, hide behind "I'm just a podiatrist" when faced with any real medical decisions when it comes to inpatient care of their patients. Ultimately we are pretty unsure when it comes to making any real medical management decisions in the best interest of our patients when they are in the hospital. I think other MD/DO surgical specialties hate managing their patient's medically and can't wait to dump them off on the hospitalists but their fundamental understanding of medicine is a little more complete. So I mean my question to you is how can you sit there and tolerate that you spent 4 years of your life studying things that your podiatry school taught you but you are nowhere near the capability of your MD/DO peers....especially on off service rotations. I think that's pretty disheartening. For me that was the beginning of me becoming jaded about this profession.

Then go out and start practicing and see how poor the job market is.

Then get a job at private practice podiatry group and then let us know how you feel after 1-3 years of making 100K base salary and never bonusing because your PP owner has a convoluted formula to bonus which appears possible but then reality never happens.

See how crappy your podiatry peers treat you if you come into their territories. We are all in this together right? Nope...

Then tell us how it feels the first time ortho tries to block you from doing an ankle fracture or an ankle case. Try reaching out to your podiatry peers for help or your state APMA group. I promise they will not do anything.

Then tell us how it feels to never be a home owner because of your crappy private practice salary. Especially in this terrible economy.

Then reflect on everything you went through to see the nursing profession pass you by in terms of job security, compensation, and quality of life.

I'll wait...

 

[air bud]

Admissions of incoming students is at an all time low and rumor has it that the big schools only filled about 50% of their seats! With all this negativity on sdn, how in the world are people interested in applying to have an objective outlook?! Yes, it’s good to know the negatives, but I don’t see anyone of y’all making $250k+ talking about the good things in your life.

Is there no positives at all even though most of you regular posters make salaries in the 96-97 percentile of all US population? Nothing you all can tell incoming students to look forward to? It’s a shame to be that bitter imo

The more sdn turns sour, the more you discourage incoming students, the lower admissions, schools risk closing or being closed, the less seriously any other medical profession takes us, the less jobs there will be.

First of all I don't know how to multiquote stuff like dtrack.
Second SDN is not the problem....but I have to say it is nice being treated as an "equal" by other medical professionals in my own work experience. At least primary care/ER (hint not Ortho).

You are a student. Just give it time. @Weirdy came around to the dark side eventually.

 

[heybrother]

You can call it pessimism, but this forum serves as a counter-weight to the empty and unrealistic fairy dusty propaganda that pre-pods are fed from marketing/"leadership" organizations and their own imagined wish fulfillment about what the profession will be like.

-"I'll be a doctor". This profession has often served as a somewhat backwards side-door into medicine. It had its flaws. Old school it likely involved crawling over a lot of bodies. Heck, still does. But you don't have to take this side-door anymore. If you choose podiatry just because "I'll be a doctor" you are missing essentially superior, cheaper, easier paths that have better scope of practice, compensation, location, hours, tuition reimbursement, etc. Anyone can be a nurse. A NP can potentially work any specialty. CRNAs out-earn us. If podiatry is so great you could literally do most of what we do as a NP in an independent practice state. You are suffering for the purpose of getting a title that doesn't open doors.

Fun story. A MA/low-level nurse at my residency podiatry clinic got an RN like a year after I left and now works in an ICU. Wonder what she'll do next. I'd say she's not far away from another degree and six-figures but hell - she's probably already there.

-"I"ll be a surgeon". Airbud already said killer stuff about this a few days ago. You have no idea whether you will actually want to be a surgeon or not. A lot of people are not cut out to be surgeons. MDs/DOs who start out trying to be surgeons and realize they don't want to be - do something else. All that aside, for all of the big dogs on this forum - most podiatrists are not that surgical. The general, ortho, vascular, ENT, etc surgeons at my residency were in the OR 2.5-4 days a week. Most pods can't touch that.

-Tuition is now routinely like $40K a year. It was $28K when I started. Is your education $50K better than mine was?

-In 2016 BCBS paid $345 for a matrixectomy to my clinic. It pays $100 less now. I was going through old data and found this. Thought it was a mistake. Mind exploded for the rest of the afternoon. I'd always wondered why our fee schedule price was $350. Now I know. Its because that's what we used to get paid.

-A few months ago Medicare created a new LCD requiring specific modifiers to justify repeat 11750/11730 presumably because people abused those codes and used them for nail cutting. Cool I thought. I'll use the new modifiers and be in the clear. Since then Medicare now also denies all bilateral 11750 as unnecessary. I only did 8 bilaterals before I realized this. I can't find anywhere justifying it. The MUE is still like 5. Cost me $600. You could actually argue that since I could have just done them individually it cost me the full value of those procedures done on their own, so, double. Where am I going with this. You will most likely be private practice and the bureaucracy is coming for us all. Every profitable code is going to be eyeballed. I already at times feel that the denials and rejections have no basis in coding but are simply an attempt to deny care like the multi-billion dollar commercials working to drive our reimbursement to sub-Medicare.

-Positives for the day. Saw some good stuff. Cleaned out an open fracture that an emergency room horribly botched. You can't pour saline on a toenail (that you sutured on because the toe was floppy and the nail would stabilize it...) over an open fracture and expect anything to happen. Saw 3 Charcot with ulcers in a row. My god. Had a few very flattering encounters - a nurse who came to me for surgery because they saw what I did for a patient. 1st MPJ+Panmet+all toes FTW. That said - the good with the bad. I bought in to be in a position to profit from these cases. I paid money to be less profitable than a CRNA working 8-5 on their first day. I gave my nurse a raise today. She deserved it. She's awesome and she's a pleasure to work with. That said, I did it because someone else offered her more money than I was paying her. I spend a lot of time thinking - what new thing can I do, how I can I optimize this, fix this contracting issue etc to try and make this path profitable enough to justify the money and sacrifice I put in to be here. There's still some meat on the bone, but the portions seem to get smaller every year. And I don't even have hospital money expectations.

-Going to be a hard sell to convince me to feel sorry for the podiatry schools. No high paying medical specialty achieved that through saturation. Dermatology historically controlled its numbers. Emergency medicine and radiation oncology seems to have both harmed their future through overproduction.

 

[Treaty of Dorsi]

I think the podiatry schools do a pretty poor job preparing their students to handle medicine rotations in residency. I think the fundamental understanding of medicine is pretty bad. I think most who are practicing podiatrists here would agree and at times, in their career, hide behind "I'm just a podiatrist" when faced with any real medical decisions when it comes to inpatient care of their patients. Ultimately we are pretty unsure when it comes to making any real medical management decisions in the best interest of our patients when they are in the hospital. I think other MD/DO surgical specialties hate managing their patient's medically and can't wait to dump them off on the hospitalists but their fundamental understanding of medicine is a little more complete. So I mean my question to you is how can you sit there and tolerate that you spent 4 years of your life studying things that your podiatry school taught you but you are nowhere near the capability of your MD/DO peers....especially on off service rotations. I think that's pretty disheartening. For me that was the beginning of me becoming jaded about this profession.

Then go out and start practicing and see how poor the job market is.

Then get a job at private practice podiatry group and then let us know how you feel after 1-3 years of making 100K base salary and never bonusing because your PP owner has a convoluted formula to bonus which appears possible but then reality never happens.

See how crappy your podiatry peers treat you if you come into their territories. We are all in this together right? Nope...

Then tell us how it feels the first time ortho tries to block you from doing an ankle fracture or an ankle case. Try reaching out to your podiatry peers for help or your state APMA group. I promise they will not do anything.

Then tell us how it feels to never be a home owner because of your crappy private practice salary. Especially in this terrible economy.

Then reflect on everything you went through to see the nursing profession pass you by in terms of job security, compensation, and quality of life.

I'll wait...

See that’s where we might be different! I don’t expect anyone to treat me as anything other than a podiatrist!! I could care less for the title or respect. I come from a family of MDs and this whole “disrespect” thing you keep talking about happens in all aspects of medicine. A family member is a neurologist and the consistently talked about how their fellow neurologists look down on the hospitalists and pediatricians. So don’t get it twisted, podiatry isn’t the issue, PEOPLE are the issue.

I know the path I chose and I am happy to be a simple podiatrist without the entitlement that I deserve more respect. Who cares what others think of me, never mattered before and it won’t matter now or in the future! I have heard the same shpeel from my family members who felt “disrespected” by another MD speciality.

 

[CutsWithFury]

See that’s where we might be different! I don’t expect anyone to treat me as anything other than a podiatrist!! I could care less for the title or respect. I come from a family of MDs and this whole “disrespect” thing you keep talking about happens in all aspects of medicine. A family member is a neurologist and the consistently talked about how their fellow neurologists look down on the hospitalists and pediatricians. So don’t get it twisted, podiatry isn’t the issue, PEOPLE are the issue.

I know the path I chose and I am happy to be a simple podiatrist without the entitlement that I deserve more respect. Who cares what others think of me, never mattered before and it won’t matter now or in the future! I have heard the same shpeel from my family members who felt “disrespected” by another MD speciality.

You are so delusional and not in touch with reality. I've said this before and I will say it again. Practice podiatry for a few years in the real world and let us know how you feel after that.

 

[Treaty of Dorsi]

You are so delusional and not in touch with reality. I've said this before and I will say it again. Practice podiatry for a few years in the real world and let us know how you feel after that.

Do you believe every single podiatrist feels the exact same way you do? Because the ones I have talked to would say different! You’re stating your opinions as if they’re facts, which is my issue with the whole thing.

 

[CutsWithFury]

Do you believe every single podiatrist feels the exact same way you do? Because the ones I have talked to would say different! You’re stating your opinions as if they’re facts, which is my issue with the whole thing.

PRACTICE PODIATRY IN THE REAL WORLD FOR 2-3 YEARS AND THEN COME BACK AND TELL US HOW YOU FEEL.

This is the attending forum by the way…

 

[dtrack22]

but I don’t see anyone of y’all making $250k+ talking about the good things in your life.

Then you don’t read very many posts. Certainly none of mine. I make more than that and I work 3.5-4 days per week with basically no call.

With all this negativity on sdn, how in the world are people interested in applying to have an objective outlook?!

I hope they don’t. We don’t need to graduate as many podiatrists as we do. There aren’t enough good students and there are too many applicants for jobs. That suppresses wages. Any current student, resident, attending would benefit by limiting seats in schools. It would drive up all of our incomes and increase the % of quality jobs.

Nothing you all can tell incoming students to look forward to?

One day you hopefully will have a good job. It is likely that you will work for another podiatrist at some point in your career, just like I did. One podiatrist didn’t give me credit for $100,000 worth of collections because they were billed under his name and the EMR “couldn’t filter out those encounters” for him and his wife, the practice manager, to figure out. The next podiatrist paid me less than $100k, and the first “bonus” tier was 25% of collections. Shockingly, I was just shy of bonusing routinely. Oh and surgical hardware for one of my cases was changed by the owner (without my knowledge, behind my back) to hardware she was invested in through an MSO. Incoming students can look forward to that.

More residency graduates will have stories like mine than, “I got an employed position and made $300k+ right out of residency.” Regardless of employment type, a huge majority of MD/DO graduates will make that out of residency.

First of all I don't know how to multiquote stuff like dtrack.

Second time I’m using this GIF for you today…

 

[air bud]

Then you don’t read very many posts. Certainly none of mine. I make more than that and I work 3.5-4 days per week with basically no call.


I hope they don’t. We don’t need to graduate as many podiatrists as we do. There aren’t enough good students and there are too many applicants for jobs. That suppresses wages. Any current student, resident, attending would benefit by limiting seats in schools. It would drive up all of our incomes and increase the % of quality jobs.


One day you hopefully will have a good job. It is likely that you will work for another podiatrist at some point in your career, just like I did. One podiatrist didn’t give me credit for $100,000 worth of collections because they were billed under his name and the EMR “couldn’t filter out those encounters” for him and his wife, the practice manager, to figure out. The next podiatrist paid me less than $100k, and the first “bonus” tier was 25% of collections. Shockingly, I was just shy of bonusing routinely. Oh and surgical hardware for one of my cases was changed by the owner (without my knowledge, behind my back) to hardware she was invested in through an MSO. Incoming students can look forward to that.

More residency graduates will have stories like mine than, “I got an employed position and made $300k+ right out of residency.” Regardless of employment type, a huge majority of MD/DO graduates will make that out of residency.


Second time I’m using this GIF for you today…

I believe I was an idiot sandwich previously sir

 

[Feli]

They said the exact same thing with western!!! They were not to graduate any residents from western unless they created an equal number of residencies to graduates. Harkless created almost zero!!!

I know because I graduated during that time. It was extraordinarily stressful to know 10% will not get a residency because of the western school/Harkless.

Call me doomsday all you want but history repeats itself and Harkless is at it again. $$$.

Yeah, the pod schools have basically created one or two residencies each.... maybe 2-5 spots per school per year, and they aren't very strong programs.
Temple (3/yr) , Barry (3/yr and 1 fellow/yr), Kent (10/yr??), and AZPod (3+2/yr) are the only I even know for sure are officially sponsored by the pod school and put their brand on the residency.
There are programs in the cities where CSPM, Rosalind, NYCPM, and DMU are... but I don't know how linked they are.
Western Univ DPM program didn't make any spots/program that I'm aware of.
You can learn anywhere, but none of those are high quality spots that I would've applied to.

So, saying that the new TX school will make spots for 20ppl in less than 5yrs is wild. Saying they'll be quality spots is a total pipe dream. That is the main issue and hole in the new school. I agree.

...personally, podiatry has treated me well. It's a good gig, decent hours, chance to help ppl, etc. When I say "treated me well," it may have something to do with top 25% of pod class, top 25% residency training, etc. It is absolutely NOT a slam dunk, though. It is fairly akin to Caribb MD school or chiro in that not everyone gets good residency, some areas are saturated, etc. It probably would have been even harder in chiro. I don't know. Cream always rises to the top? Sure... but some mixes are tougher... and their top is lower.

Making a DPM school without residency spots can re-ignite the dumpster fire of a substantial number of grads getting bad residency or NO residency. That is rough. It is not needed. USA population growth has flatlined (most other 1st world countries have been neg for awhile). Why the new school(s)? Money money money money... munnn-ayyyy! So yeah, I would understand it more if there were many quality residencies unfilled... good hospital DPM jobs unfilled? As it stands, those conditions don't exist.

 

[air bud]

Yeah, the pod schools have basically created one or two residencies each.... maybe 2-5 spots per school per year, and they aren't very strong programs.
Temple (3/yr) , Barry (3/yr and 1 fellow/yr), Kent (10/yr??), and AZPod (3+2/yr) are the only I even know for sure are officially sponsored by the pod school and put their brand on the residency.
There are programs in the cities where CSPM, Rosalind, NYCPM, and DMU are... but I don't know how linked they are.
Western Univ DPM program didn't make any spots/program that I'm aware of.
You can learn anywhere, but none of those are high quality spots that I would've applied to.

So, saying that the new TX school will make spots for 20ppl in less than 5yrs is wild. Saying they'll be quality spots is a total pipe dream. That is the main issue and hole in the new school. I agree.

...personally, podiatry has treated me well. It's a good gig, decent hours, chance to help ppl, etc. When I say "treated me well," it may have something to do with top 25% of pod class, top 25% residency training, etc. It is absolutely NOT a slam dunk, though. It is fairly akin to Caribb MD school or chiro in that not everyone gets good residency, some areas are saturated, etc. It probably would have been even harder in chiro. I don't know. Cream always rises to the top? Sure... but some mixes are tougher... and their top is lower.

Making a DPM school without residency spots can re-ignite the dumpster fire of a substantial number of grads getting bad residency or NO residency. That is rough. It is not needed. USA population growth has flatlined (most other 1st world countries have been neg for awhile). Why the new school(s)? Money money money money... munnn-ayyyy! So yeah, I would understand it more if there were many quality residencies unfilled... good hospital DPM jobs unfilled? As it stands, those conditions don't exist.

I don't know, podiatry has given me 2 tickets to paradise. Not sure why you guys are complaining.

 

[dtrack22]

I believe I was an idiot sandwich previously sir

Oh yeah! The wedding crashers one was the first one I looked up but then I just used the gifs my phone pulls up in messages so your phone wouldn’t ruin it for everyone else in the group…

 

[wakaflocka88]

What experiences could I share that would change your mind? The tone in SDN is that podiatric care does nothing to positively impact patient lives

Wrong. You only hear one side of it. The other side is what I/We do is very very impactful. I had a nice lady today, prior triple years ago that has healed but now left her with contracted hammertoes 1-5. Just wants to walk again and not develop sores. Did a forefoot recon today. I hate hammertoes. But I do it because it will greatly impact her livelihood. And I was trained well how to do this. I will also happily fuse ankles, fix fractures, big recons, and also gladly clip toe nails on patients that meet Medicare guidelines with sterile nippers. I enjoy what I do.

Yes the handful of us regular posters probably share more of the bad side but we speak from experience that you do not have. You can choose to ignore and continue your path, it’s your choice. I chose to listen to both sides and work my ass off. The schools lie to your face daily about becoming the next great foot and ankle surgeons. It ain’t happening. I promise you that. Maybe a few each graduating class may succeed the next Schuberth or Christensen but that is out of 650+ each year. Again, it will not happen statistically.

So ya, orthopods in my group respect what I do. They ask me for second opinions and we share cases together. Pod school did NOT teach me how to navigate residency or post residency. They just shove the ABFAS and ABPM agenda in your face and a false sense of reality. They see these fellowship trained pods on IG and think that will be THEIR future as well. I’m over 2 years out from training. On pace to pulling in over $350k this year alone and that’s before any productivity bonuses on top of my cush 401k, full health benefits, $7k in CME money, a separate pension plan and in a large metro city exactly where I wanted to live and practice. Minimal to no call, full scope of practice and autonomy, average 40-45 hours a week. I worked my bacon off to get to where I’m at.

We have to work hard in our profession to make the money. Ortho can slap in a hip or knee for 25-30 RVU and bang out 6 in a day. You do the math. The posters above me have said it over and over again - opportunities are out there - whether it’s residency or jobs - but it depends on how hard you’re willing to work for it instead of spending your time on IG posting about being a “doctor” with a stethoscope around your neck.

But ya, continue to listen to the great things ABFAS ACFAS and ABMP say. After all they can’t be lying and leading us astray right? Why would they do that to the young pre pods/pods of our future.

 

[icebreaker32]

Admissions of incoming students is at an all time low and rumor has it that the big schools only filled about 50% of their seats! With all this negativity on sdn, how in the world are people interested in applying to have an objective outlook?! Yes, it’s good to know the negatives, but I don’t see anyone of y’all making $250k+ talking about the good things in your life.

Is there no positives at all even though most of you regular posters make salaries in the 96-97 percentile of all US population? Nothing you all can tell incoming students to look forward to? It’s a shame to be that bitter imo

The more sdn turns sour, the more you discourage incoming students, the lower admissions, schools risk closing or being closed, the less seriously any other medical profession takes us, the less jobs there will be.

The tone on here is not that negative at all in my opinion compared to the realities of this profession

Before this forum there were blogs and other forums that were much more negative. There were a few podiatrists or a single podiatrist that things did not work out for spreading their “gospel”. The schools and leadership etc did not like those sites, but they still served a purpose that life after school for a podiatrist often had its problems from residencies to jobs.

This site is much different than those old sites as this site largely has successful podiatrists that are trying to help young doctors. The “truth” hurts sometimes. Your experience as a podiatrist will be just you. Some do get that great job, in a great city immediately after training. The most typical setting for those that do well is still probably solo private practice. Not as common as it used to be, but still the most typical model. Will it change by the time future students finish their training? Most likely no.

This is a key point…….after all that schooling and debt the most likely path to do well is to open your own practice after a potentially not so great initial job for a few years. More good employed jobs do exist than 20 years ago sure, but not enough for all. Not even close. Some get the good jobs initially, some after a few years, some after several years and some never. If one is OK with this reality and risk/difficulty involved with opening an office and all the things you will not learn in school or residency on how to run a business then they should consider this profession. You will need a mentor or need to learn a lot on practice management on your own. Alternatively you can hope you are a top student and top resident and snag one of those great jobs. It you are average you might need to be extremely open geographically to land a great job.

I highly doubt this site, which is not that negative will hurt enrollment. I would think it would help. If I was a potential student, I would likely say to myself there are a lot on here doing very well and it would give me hope.

Podiatry has not gotten considerably worse or better over the past 10 years in most regards. What has changed is many other healthcare professions are even more in demand so they have gotten better. People are not choosing other professions because of this forum, they are choosing other professions because of the realities of those other professions. One should consider ROI, available jobs and work/life balance of other professions before committing to podiatry.

A decrease in enrollment is not a bad thing for this profession. A decrease in the quality of student is.

I have heard for decades (from schools and leaders) we need to produce more podiatrists because:

It will help us all do better as we will be more visible to patients and other healthcare professionals

We will have more money for lobbying

The boomers are aging, diabetics are increasing and there will be an unbelievable demand for our services

………well we are still in a situation where there is over saturation and many other professions have a severe shortage

 

[Scrantonicity]

Exactly...I go on these forums to cheer myself up!

But what about the patients' lives!!??!!

 

[JewOnThis]

Wrong. You only hear one side of it. The other side is what I/We do is very very impactful. I had a nice lady today, prior triple years ago that has healed but now left her with contracted hammertoes 1-5. Just wants to walk again and not develop sores. Did a forefoot recon today. I hate hammertoes. But I do it because it will greatly impact her livelihood. And I was trained well how to do this. I will also happily fuse ankles, fix fractures, big recons, and also gladly clip toe nails on patients that meet Medicare guidelines with sterile nippers. I enjoy what I do.

Yes the handful of us regular posters probably share more of the bad side but we speak from experience that you do not have. You can choose to ignore and continue your path, it’s your choice. I chose to listen to both sides and work my ass off. The schools lie to your face daily about becoming the next great foot and ankle surgeons. It ain’t happening. I promise you that. Maybe a few each graduating class may succeed the next Schuberth or Christensen but that is out of 650+ each year. Again, it will not happen statistically.

So ya, orthopods in my group respect what I do. They ask me for second opinions and we share cases together. Pod school did NOT teach me how to navigate residency or post residency. They just shove the ABFAS and ABPM agenda in your face and a false sense of reality. They see these fellowship trained pods on IG and think that will be THEIR future as well. I’m over 2 years out from training. On pace to pulling in over $350k this year alone and that’s before any productivity bonuses on top of my cush 401k, full health benefits, $7k in CME money, a separate pension plan and in a large metro city exactly where I wanted to live and practice. Minimal to no call, full scope of practice and autonomy, average 40-45 hours a week. I worked my bacon off to get to where I’m at.

We have to work hard in our profession to make the money. Ortho can slap in a hip or knee for 25-30 RVU and bang out 6 in a day. You do the math. The posters above me have said it over and over again - opportunities are out there - whether it’s residency or jobs - but it depends on how hard you’re willing to work for it instead of spending your time on IG posting about being a “doctor” with a stethoscope around your neck.

But ya, continue to listen to the great things ABFAS ACFAS and ABMP say. After all they can’t be lying and leading us astray right? Why would they do that to the young pre pods/pods of our future.

It sounds like you are killing it out there. Good for you. You are still a young blood being 2 years out of residency.

 

[wakaflocka88]

It sounds like you are killing it out there. Good for you. You are still a young blood being 2 years out of residency.

I like to keep a work life balance, my family is my priority. I don’t bring work home, I don’t do charts at home. I have all my weekends off, rarely have I had a weekend case or inpatient. I feel content with my ROI so far and I’m able to provide for my family so they can be comfortable. But honestly I stay in my lane and focus on the cases/patients/pathology I feel comfortable treating. I have friends that chase after the money and one is grossing close to $700-$800k in a large MSG but her volume is bonkers by choice. I wish this scenario can be more common but when students shadow me and see how eager they are about their job prospects, I don’t have the gut to tell them this.

 

[iridocyclitiss]

I think the podiatry schools do a pretty poor job preparing their students to handle medicine rotations in residency. I think the fundamental understanding of medicine is pretty bad. I think most who are practicing podiatrists here would agree and at times, in their career, hide behind "I'm just a podiatrist" when faced with any real medical decisions when it comes to inpatient care of their patients. Ultimately we are pretty unsure when it comes to making any real medical management decisions in the best interest of our patients when they are in the hospital. I think other MD/DO surgical specialties hate managing their patient's medically and can't wait to dump them off on the hospitalists but their fundamental understanding of medicine is a little more complete. So I mean my question to you is how can you sit there and tolerate that you spent 4 years of your life studying things that your podiatry school taught you but you are nowhere near the capability of your MD/DO peers....especially on off service rotations. I think that's pretty disheartening. For me that was the beginning of me becoming jaded about this profession.

^this is really understated. Just finished my IM rotation and it was terrible. I worked really hard and by the middle of my rotation I was doing mediocre. I don't like making excuses for myself but the medicine i learned in school is not the medicine we are expected to know in hospital settings.

Also feel like the forum isn't as negative as its being painted to be, rather its just valuable perspective. Our school always says "everybody matches" but fails to mention that not all training is equal, or even quality. So THANK Y'all for at least painting a more realistic picture of what to expect/how to get where you want to go.

 

[dtrack22]

Our school always says "everybody matches" but fails to mention that not all training is equal, or even quality.

Yeah, and people here are doom and gloom because they’ll say out loud that the Atlanta VA is hot garbage from a training standpoint…along with much of NYC and most VA programs.

 

[Pronation]

Yeah, and people here are doom and gloom because they’ll say out loud that the Atlanta VA is hot garbage from a training standpoint…along with much of NYC and most VA programs.

Sounds like Atlanta VA is a great place to be an attending and get paid to do not much.

 

[Weirdy]

Admissions of incoming students is at an all time low and rumor has it that the big schools only filled about 50% of their seats! With all this negativity on sdn, how in the world are people interested in applying to have an objective outlook?! Yes, it’s good to know the negatives, but I don’t see anyone of y’all making $250k+ talking about the good things in your life.

Is there no positives at all even though most of you regular posters make salaries in the 96-97 percentile of all US population? Nothing you all can tell incoming students to look forward to? It’s a shame to be that bitter imo

The more sdn turns sour, the more you discourage incoming students, the lower admissions, schools risk closing or being closed, the less seriously any other medical profession takes us, the less jobs there will be.

Admissions at an all time low! - As it should be. There is not a demand to graduate another 600 foot and ankle specialists every year in the United States. None. People should be interested in applying objectively only when they have ALL the data points. Promises by podiatry schools and a "low" admissions requirement/seat pool is NOT a good reason to apply to podiatry school. Demand in the real world IS. Schools not filling enough seats is NOT the same as demand for foot and ankle specialist. It is also a TERRIBLE reason for more people to apply.

Nothing you can tell incoming students to look forward to? - No not really. I like what I do even as just a resident right now. The people I care for like what we do. Tons of respect from the other departments but we had to earn it. But this doesn't mean you just turn a blind eye to real-world factors. School is completely different from residency, and residency is different from real life. Why should we lie to incoming students about salary, demand, or job outlook? I could tell you how much fun I had in school and residency and how satisfied I am with my results- but it does NOT change the cold hard fact that high paying jobs are not common and other medical professions will still look down on you. It has nothing to do with shame. It is about making sure the people going in know what they are dealing with.

The more sdn turns sour, the more you discourage incoming students, the lower admissions, schools risk closing or being closed, the less seriously any other medical profession takes us, the less jobs there will be. - You're kidding right? Just this alone tells me you have not worked in the real world enough to know. It doesn't work like this. It is a GOOD thing if a new school has to close. Do you know why? Because the US does not have a demand for graduating 600 DPMs every year. That's why. You will realize not all people are the same. This means not all students are the same, which means not all residents or podiatrists are the same. It only takes ONE bad podiatrist to make everyone else look bad. We are judged by our weakest link, and there are a ton of weak links out there. Flooding the market with tons of DPMs who have poor training, went to cruddy residencies (which will now have full seats to make up for MORE students incoming) means real world doctors cutting when they shouldn't, NOT cutting when the should, and providing s*** care. THAT'S when other doctors around you start noticing and start thinkgin "Man....what are those podiatrists doing?...I'm not sending my patients to them." It has the complete opposite effect. Growth without demand or adequate quality training produces more poorly trained DPMs, who go out and not only hurt patients but also make us look even worse.

Have you talked to any resident or attending in the real world outside of your high minded podiatry student school life? There is zero correlation between podiatry schools closing and other medical professions taking us less seriously. They already take us less seriously and have done so since the beginning of time. They could not care less if a podiatry school closes. They don't even know what we do. I've had to explain to patients and even off service attendings how long our training is and what we can do- as a resident, not a student. The only way I have gotten them to respect us and our department is to literally work my ass off, be personable, and provide excellent patient care backed by supported literature and experience. And even then some people are bumping our cases, taking digs at us, squabbling over every single decision we make. It never stops. I've come to the conclusion that the only people worth working with are the ones that are convinced by the quality of our work and aren't a**h*les.

Sure I may sound sour as all get out in the above responses, but as a student- like you- I was out there doing podiatry outreach to both undergrad and graduate schools. We'd give presentations - as a podiatry student - to prospective premeds, undergraduate students, graduate students etc. We'd run work shops, teach them anatomy courses and help with labs at different schools, drive 2hrs one way to give a presentation answer all premed/whatever questions and drive 2hrs home. I'd get phone calls and emails from premeds and students who were interested or who were just happy they had someone to relate to- but were still going to apply MD/DO. I loved doing that stuff and don't regret a minute of it. But even then- I am the one telling you to keep an open mind and get real.

Respect from other professions doesn't come from graduating a ton of DPMs every year or opening a new school or touting that we are "Surgeons". It also doesn't come with an SDN echo chamber of "Everything's gonna be OK".

The only way you can convince another doctor that you are a foot and ankle specialist who can also provide surgery as a tool to treat patients, is to provide exceptional care and hope they respect your results and you as a person.

 

[Weirdy]

I know the path I chose and I am happy to be a simple podiatrist without the entitlement that I deserve more respect. Who cares what others think of me, never mattered before and it won’t matter now or in the future! I have heard the same shpeel from my family members who felt “disrespected” by another MD speciality.

You say it doesn't matter but you yourself brought it up as the main point of contention in your argument. "How will other people look at us if we end up shutting down schools?"

Respect DOES matter when you are trying to get s*** done so you can take better care of your patient. You havn't had that happen to you yet. Wait until it does and come back and tell us.

And guess what, if no one from any another medical profession every tries to impede your way when you are pushing to take better care of your patient- come back, tell us your story, and I will apologize to you on this forum. Prove us wrong.

 

[Weirdy]

What experiences could I share that would change your mind? The tone in SDN is that podiatric care does nothing to positively impact patient lives

This strawman argument is so absurd, I don't even know how to reply to it.

Not once have we mentioned, anywhere in this thread, that podiatric care has not positively impacted patient lives.

This is an attending forum. They know exactly how positively they've impacted patient lives and outcomes. It is asinine to misrepresent our argument as "Our job doesn't matter to patients because we aren't getting paid enough, woe is me".

Why bother save the foot when they can just be shipped to ortho for a BKA? Why bother wasting resources to heal a wound in weeks when it took them months of infections from subpar care at another wound center? Why bother putting up with some of the most difficult and argumentative patients just to have their foot blow up in another infection 2 months from now when we just healed your ulcer man.

Don't question our intent to our patients.