WashU vs. Vanderbilt vs. Hopkins

[SquirmyHermy123]

Hi all! Thank you for taking the time to give me advice. I have been lucky enough to receive acceptances to WashU, Vanderbilt, UColorado, and Hopkins medical schools. WashU is offering to pay 100% of tuiton (~$270,000) while Vanderbilt is offering to pay 75% of tuition (~$200,000). Hopkins and UColorado have not offered me any merit aid and I am waiting to hear back on their need based aid offers, though I do not expect their packages to be anywhere close to what WashU and Vanderbilt are offering. I also interviewed at and am waiting to hear back from Harvard, Yale, UChicago, and UPenn.

If it helps, I'm planning to pursue psychiatry. Here are my pros and cons:

WashU
Pros

• No grades whatsoever, all preclinical and clinical courses are P/F
• Really amazing research opportunities
• Built in time for research
• Faculty seem super friendly and easy to reach out to
• Forest Park is great!
• Diverse patient population--both a tertiary care and safety net hospital

Cons

• I do not love St. Louis, and it's a bad city for my partner and her career
• People have told me that WashU students are competitive--I didn't get this vibe, but who knows
• Only two weeks for summer breaks heheh

Vanderbilt
Pros

• All courses are P/F except some elective clinical rotations
• 2 years for electives and research
• Nashville seems fun and has good nature
• Good research
• Faculty and students seem really nice
• Class seems to have good camradarie?

Cons

• Intense 1 yr preclinical
• Also pretty bad for my partner and career
• I would rather not live in the south
• Less diverse patient population?

Hopkins
Pros

• Great reputation and amazing match list
• Really cool public health focus/courses/coordination with Bloomberg School of Public Health
• Incredible research opportunities
• Great for my partner and her career
• Diverse patient population
• Built in time for research

Cons

• Student body seems kinda intense
• Baltimore does not seem like a great place to live
• Grades for clinical rotations (but maybe not anymore?)
• Less $$$

Colorado

Pros

• I want to live in Colorado more than anywhere on earth :0
• Good locaton for my partner
• Cool integration of environmental stuff into the curriculum
• Great psychiatry research
• Really good match list

Cons

• Less resources for students than other schools (Ex. you have to apply to be on the research or global health track)
• Less prestige than other schools?
• Curriculum is new and less tested
• Grades in phase 3

Summary: I really like WashU's curriculum but am unsure about the student vibes, and the location isn't great. Vanderbilt seems like a really great school but might have less research opportunities than the other two. And Hopkins is a great school but I'm not sure about the student body/location. I would love to live in Colorado but it doesn't seem like as good a school for me...
I really appreciate any advice/tips, I'm having a tough time deciding!!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

If Hopkins can match or close to match WashU, it would be my pick. Baltimore is not so great, but you are close to DC and Philly so maybe your partner can get some good job there.

In terms of reputation and research opportunities, Hopkins and WashU are both excellent. Vandy is good but a tad bit less. I wouldn’t put Colorado in the same category.

I wouldn’t read into vibes. At most you spend about 14 months with a small group or two. Then you all go your separate way for clinical stuff. So technically, med school is only the preclinical period. On the wards, most of times you will be the only med student.

 

[SquirmyHermy123]

If Hopkins can match or close to match WashU, it would be my pick. Baltimore is not so great, but you are close to DC and Philly so maybe your partner can get some good job there.

In terms of reputation and research opportunities, Hopkins and WashU are both excellent. Vandy is good but a tad bit less. I wouldn’t put Colorado in the same category.

I wouldn’t read into vibes. At most you spend about 14 months with a small group or two. Then you all go your separate way for clinical stuff. So technically, med school is only the preclinical period. On the wards, most of times you will be the only med student.

Thank you this is very helpful

 

[themagictaco]

Hopkins clinical is pass/fail (due to covid I think), but is most likey going to stay pass/fail for the time being from what ive heard in case that influences anything.

 

[cam1717]

I personally value the place I am going to be living for the next four years more than the reputation of the school. Med school is Med school and you will be successful in life whichever place you choose. Colorado is truly the most amazing place to live and I wouldn’t trade it for any other program but that’s just me!

 

[SpideyMD]

Liberty all the way

 

[deleted1095841]

There are competitive students everywhere. Having P/F clinicals makes them much easier to work with. Also makes it easier to just be yourself and focus on learning. It's tough to be in interview-mode all day every day for months. Go where there are P/F clinicals!

 

[a_distant_dream]

Is WashU really P/F for 4 years? I thought clerkship was Distinction/Pass/Fail. Then again, H/HP/P/F for ACEs / ISCs / AIs with AOA at Vandy …

 

[a_distant_dream]

WashU hasn't even had a class go through the new clinical phase yet...I recall someone asked about this on interview day and there wasn't really an answer, but it definitely is not fully pass-fail and I think you are right in regards to distinction/pass/fail.

I also thought Vanderbilt was true P/F even through clinicals without AOA. Not sure what ACEs/ISCs/AIs are—are these electives or subI's? Hopkins also has honors/hp for electives and subI's but AOA after residency apps.

So many schools keep making changes to these things under the rug so it's hard to keep track!!! I wish there was a mega thread on it

I agree! The information should be standardized on MSAR or something.

My source for WashU's Distinction/Competent/Not Competent (H/P/F) is through asking at curriculum events and Competency Attainment and Clerkship Competency Committees' Bylaws < Washington University in St.Louis. My source for Vanderbilt was School of Medicine and MSAR: "The first two phases (Foundations of Medical Knowledge and Foundations of Clinical Care) are pass/fail. Most courses in the Immersion Phase are graded as Honors, High Pass, Pass, Fail."

As for AOA, I recall coming to that conclusion but cannot find my sources so I might be mistaken. In the end, I'll probably lump clerkship grading systems into H/HP/P/F, P/F with AOA, true P/F.

 

[a_distant_dream]

Ah okay, that makes more sense. I believe almost all top schools still have some form of grading for subI's—which makes sense—and electives (apparently it's super easy to get honors in electives though). But if AOA was present before ERAS then that would be a bummer considering then it would imply some degree of internal ranking.

Do you know if WashU has AOA? I find it hilarious that nowadays not only do you need to find out if schools have/don't have AOA, but if they award it before or after residency applications if they do have it...lol. Super annoying that this is all pretty much not online so you have to ask either a M3/4 or a dean/interview person.

I am pretty sure they don't have AOA. Maybe Vanderbilt doesn't have AOA either. I suspect my confusion is because many med schools have chapters of AOA that only elect faculty / residents.

 

[a_distant_dream]

My only confusion with vandy is that after interview I always just jot down all my thoughts and I wrote down that they are true pass-fail without ranking throughout all 4 years. Somewhere else I wrote harvard/ucsf/duke/vanderbilt/yale are the only schools that have this. So unless I'm completely delusional I don't think they could have AOA because that would imply they have to rank their students...so not really true pass fail. With that being said, there's actually a fairly high chance I am completely delusional during interviews so probably need to double check all this.

You're probably right. WashU is probably no AOA after checking on MSAR (rankings: "No"). Vanderbilt is unranked for preclerkship and their ranking policy for clerkship confused me. Reminds me how NYU claims P/F preclerkship but they track top 25% in each class for AOA (then again, they also claim no rankings on MSAR).

 

[deleted1119806]

My only confusion with vandy is that after interview I always just jot down all my thoughts and I wrote down that they are true pass-fail without ranking throughout all 4 years. Somewhere else I wrote harvard/ucsf/duke/vanderbilt/yale are the only schools that have this. So unless I'm completely delusional I don't think they could have AOA because that would imply they have to rank their students...so not really true pass fail. With that being said, there's actually a fairly high chance I am completely delusional during interviews so probably need to double check all this.

Vanderbilt is full p/f throughout and is removing AOA (as per current student) so ur right!

WashU I’m still not sure either haha and NYU for sure is ranked/AOA

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Actually, more important than ranking is what goes into your MSPE. Most schools will use code words to secretly rank you despite everything is graded pass/fail or whatnot. The only schools that state clearly that they don’t use any “adjective” in their MSPE is Harvard and UCSF. Both schools state that on their websites and student handbooks.

Without that guarantee, I will assume you are ranked in some form anyway.

2.22 Medical Student Performance Evaluation (MSPE)

The Medical Student Performance Evaluation (MSPE) is one component of a student’s application to residency programs. The MSPE is an objective letter of evaluation that summarizes a student’s academic record at HMS in a narrative format. The national distribution date of the MSPE to residency...

medstudenthandbook.hms.harvard.edu

Medical Student Performance Evaluation | UCSF Medical Education

The Medical Student Performance Evaluation (MSPE) is a written transcript of the student's performance in medical school and a required component of the residency application. The School of Medicine prepares MSPEs for all students regardless of their residency application plans in accordance...

meded.ucsf.edu

 

[SquirmyHermy123]

Is WashU really P/F for 4 years? I thought clerkship was Distinction/Pass/Fail. Then again, H/HP/P/F for ACEs / ISCs / AIs with AOA at Vandy …

I asked a current third year student along with a psychiatry professor at WashU. Both confirmed that clinical are truly P/F, through this hasn’t been updated on the website yet

 

[a_distant_dream]

I asked a current third year student along with a psychiatry professor at WashU. Both confirmed that clinical are truly P/F, through this hasn’t been updated on the website yet

Awesome! So Vandy and WashU are both true P/F. Presumably no AOA either. Forgot to mention earlier - congratulations on the acceptances @SquirmyHermy123 !

 

[SquirmyHermy123]

Awesome! So Vandy and WashU are both true P/F. Presumably no AOA either. Forgot to mention earlier - congratulations on the acceptances @SquirmyHermy123 !

Thanks!!

 

[airceezy]

Actually, more important than ranking is what goes into your MSPE. Most schools will use code words to secretly rank you despite everything is graded pass/fail or whatnot. The only schools that state clearly that they don’t use any “adjective” in their MSPE is Harvard and UCSF. Both schools state that on their websites and student handbooks.

Without that guarantee, I will assume you are ranked in some form anyway.

2.22 Medical Student Performance Evaluation (MSPE)

The Medical Student Performance Evaluation (MSPE) is one component of a student’s application to residency programs. The MSPE is an objective letter of evaluation that summarizes a student’s academic record at HMS in a narrative format. The national distribution date of the MSPE to residency...

medstudenthandbook.hms.harvard.edu

Medical Student Performance Evaluation | UCSF Medical Education

The Medical Student Performance Evaluation (MSPE) is a written transcript of the student's performance in medical school and a required component of the residency application. The School of Medicine prepares MSPEs for all students regardless of their residency application plans in accordance...

meded.ucsf.edu

Per Vandy students, they get to view and help create their MSPE, so any non-positive adjectives can be removed and edited as desired.

OP I would go with either WashU or JHU! No real difference in prestige or opportunities going to any of these schools (except Colorado) but real difference in cost of attendance.

 

[Saturday’s Child]

Hi all! Thank you for taking the time to give me advice. I have been lucky enough to receive acceptances to WashU, Vanderbilt, UColorado, and Hopkins medical schools. WashU is offering to pay 100% of tuiton (~$270,000) while Vanderbilt is offering to pay 75% of tuition (~$200,000). Hopkins and UColorado have not offered me any merit aid and I am waiting to hear back on their need based aid offers, though I do not expect their packages to be anywhere close to what WashU and Vanderbilt are offering. I also interviewed at and am waiting to hear back from Harvard, Yale, UChicago, and UPenn.

If it helps, I'm planning to pursue psychiatry. Here are my pros and cons:

WashU
Pros

• No grades whatsoever, all preclinical and clinical courses are P/F
• Really amazing research opportunities
• Built in time for research
• Faculty seem super friendly and easy to reach out to
• Forest Park is great!
• Diverse patient population--both a tertiary care and safety net hospital

Cons

• I do not love St. Louis, and it's a bad city for my partner and her career
• People have told me that WashU students are competitive--I didn't get this vibe, but who knows
• Only two weeks for summer breaks heheh

Hopkins
Pros

• Great reputation and amazing match list
• Really cool public health focus/courses/coordination with Bloomberg School of Public Health
• Incredible research opportunities
• Great for my partner and her career
• Diverse patient population
• Built in time for research

Cons

• Student body seems kinda intense
• Baltimore does not seem like a great place to live
• Grades for clinical rotations (but maybe not anymore?)
• Less $$$

Summary: I really like WashU's curriculum but am unsure about the student vibes, and the location isn't great. Vanderbilt seems like a really great school but might have less research opportunities than the other two. And Hopkins is a great school but I'm not sure about the student body/location. I would love to live in Colorado but it doesn't seem like as good a school for me...

Hopkins student here. Comes down to WashU and Hopkins, as others have mentioned. Too close of a race for me to confidently direct you to one over the other, but I'll present a few thoughts for you to consider.

Both have great reputations, diverse patient populations, plenty of research opportunities and time to pursue them, excellent and approachable faculty, and are basically entirely P/F (though electives and sub-I's at Hopkins are graded, which can actually be beneficial). It's a crapshoot trying to predict what your class will be like--both schools attract ambitious but generally personable and well-rounded people, with P/F smoothing out many rough, competitive edges. Each class has its own personality.

How much do you value the free education at WashU? That really is a great deal, and your future self would have many questions for you if you turned it down. Keep in mind that Hopkins is pretty generous with need-based aid, so you could end up with >50% of tuition covered depending on how much aid you qualify for. See how it plays out.

How important is it that your partner have career opportunities nearby? Would you be willing to take on more debt if it meant improving their quality of life and career potential? You'll make plenty of money one day and pay off all your debts, and one could argue that happiness and career advancement in your 20's (I'm assuming?) is priceless. How willing are they to sacrifice said QOL and career opportunities in order for you to possibly save tens of thousands of dollars? If this is a serious relationship and you intend to weigh their desires in this decision, you should be asking them this question.

Location wise, I give a slight edge to Baltimore. I've spent a fair bit of time in both cities. Students find ways to have fun at each school. St. Louis is a bit more residential and sprawling, while Baltimore is defined by its ubiquitous and tightly packed "row homes." St. Louis is landlocked with nothing nearby, however, while Baltimore is within 1-3 hours from DC, Philly, and NYC, as well as beaches and mountains. Both have areas you'll generally want to avoid, and at Hopkins you'll likely be closer to these areas than you would be at WashU. The vast majority of students never encounter major crime directly, but it can be unsettling to know how close the hospital is to dangerous things happening in the community.

 

[SquirmyHermy123]

Hopkins student here. Comes down to WashU and Hopkins, as others have mentioned. Too close of a race for me to confidently direct you to one over the other, but I'll present a few thoughts for you to consider.

Both have great reputations, diverse patient populations, plenty of research opportunities and time to pursue them, excellent and approachable faculty, and are basically entirely P/F (though electives and sub-I's at Hopkins are graded, which can actually be beneficial). It's a crapshoot trying to predict what your class will be like--both schools attract ambitious but generally personable and well-rounded people, with P/F smoothing out many rough, competitive edges. Each class has its own personality.

How much do you value the free education at WashU? That really is a great deal, and your future self would have many questions for you if you turned it down. Keep in mind that Hopkins is pretty generous with need-based aid, so you could end up with >50% of tuition covered depending on how much aid you qualify for. See how it plays out.

How important is it that your partner have career opportunities nearby? Would you be willing to take on more debt if it meant improving their quality of life and career potential? You'll make plenty of money one day and pay off all your debts, and one could argue that happiness and career advancement in your 20's (I'm assuming?) is priceless. How willing are they to sacrifice said QOL and career opportunities in order for you to possibly save tens of thousands of dollars? If this is a serious relationship and you intend to weigh their desires in this decision, you should be asking them this question.

Location wise, I give a slight edge to Baltimore. I've spent a fair bit of time in both cities. Students find ways to have fun at each school. St. Louis is a bit more residential and sprawling, while Baltimore is defined by its ubiquitous and tightly packed "row homes." St. Louis is landlocked with nothing nearby, however, while Baltimore is within 1-3 hours from DC, Philly, and NYC, as well as beaches and mountains. Both have areas you'll generally want to avoid, and at Hopkins you'll likely be closer to these areas than you would be at WashU. The vast majority of students never encounter major crime directly, but it can be unsettling to know how close the hospital is to dangerous things happening in the community.

Thank you this is super helpful!!

 

[purplepea]

This may not be imp to you but Vandy's exams are 2 days long and seem really intense. Down to WashU and Hopkins for me as well.

 

[deleted1065184]

How often though? And since it's true P/F without ranking (for sure during preclinical) does this really matter?

I think there's a valid stress consideration. Regardless of frequency, 2-day long exams are ROUGH lol. The examinations at Hopkins and WashU are not that intense.

 

[deleted1119806]

I think there's a valid stress consideration. Regardless of frequency, 2-day long exams are ROUGH lol. The examinations at Hopkins and WashU are not that intense.

But the weird/cutthroat communities at WUSTL and JHU make up for it lmao

 

[Frigidcold]

But the weird/cutthroat communities at WUSTL and JHU make up for it lmao

I can never tell if this is real or just some rumor that never dies.

 

[deleted1065184]

But the weird/cutthroat communities at WUSTL and JHU make up for it lmao

Meh, feel like every school has gunners and chill people. You hang around who you vibe with, and ultimately the personalities of other classmates won't make a whole lot of difference for any given individual.

 

[deleted1065184]

I can never tell if this is real or just some rumor that never dies.

Def overblown, both schools were known for this like 20 years ago and just can't shake the reputation lol...was esp true for WashU bc for a while they didn't care a whole lot about personality as long as you had superb MCAT/GPA, but no school is really like that anymore imo. They still want great grades/scores, but they're really a dime a dozen so they can be more picky about personality now.

 

[deleted1065184]

Heard this from some M1/2 friends at WashU ngl. Not sure about Hopkins though, but if it's anything like the undergrad...yikes

I promise there are students from every school will say this about their school lol, and there will be just as many who say the opposite.

The least useful factor for choosing a school is hearing the opinion of one person, bc your experience will likely be nothing like theirs.

 

[a_distant_dream]

WashU had some of the chillest students I encountered on the interview trail. My PI was also a WashU grad and probably the most personable of my research mentors.

 

[deleted1065184]

WashU had some of the chillest students I encountered on the interview trail. My PI was also a WashU grad and probably the most personable of my research mentors.

I rest my case lol

 

[deleted1119806]

Meh, feel like every school has gunners and chill people. You hang around who you vibe with, and ultimately the personalities of other classmates won't make a whole lot of difference for any given individual.

True, but some schools tend to aggregate more weirdos/unhealthily competitive people than others, and that is ultimately a partial reflection of what an institution values in its candidates

Like you said, this could be sampling bias, but when these sentiments are noted over decades by varying accounts, it must hold merit to an extent

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Cut-throat or not has nothing to do with your fellow students. It’s how they grade you on your rotations that will determine your overall experiences.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

Cut-throat or not has nothing to do with your fellow students. It’s how they grade you on your rotations that will determine your overall experiences.

Disagree with this. For sure the environment makes it worse, but schools select for certain things.

WashU has been known as the safe haven for those with high stats, I’ve repeatedly see people with high stats who were rejected from other top names but still accepted at washu with scholarship. This crowd also seems to be the ones who fixate on numbers, and that mentality and culture shows

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Disagree with this. For sure the environment makes it worse, but schools select for certain things.

WashU has been known as the safe haven for those with high stats, I’ve repeatedly see people with high stats who were rejected from other top names but still accepted at washu with scholarship. This crowd also seems to be the ones who fixate on numbers, and that mentality and culture shows

are you in your clinical year? Preclinical is all pass/fail. so who cares. Then comes clinical years. you are most likely the only med student on a team and so who do you get cutthroat with? It's such a weird concept in medical school to be cut throat. You can do whatever you want and others can do whatever they want and if they are gunning for neurosurgery, you don't have to do the same thing. So I will always recommend against selecting a school based on how cutthroat the student body is. The right question to ask is how cut throat the grading system is.

Also it seems like you have such a problem with people of high stats. Safe haven for high stats at WashU is such a belittling comment on a school that's one of the best in this country.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

are you in your clinical year? Preclinical is all pass/fail. so who cares. Then comes clinical years. you are most likely the only med student on a team and so who do you get cutthroat with? It's such a weird concept in medical school to be cut throat. You can do whatever you want and others can do whatever they want and if they are gunning for neurosurgery, you don't have to do the same thing. So I will always recommend against selecting a school based on how cutthroat the student body is. The right question to ask is how cut throat the grading system is.

Also it seems like you have such a problem with people of high stats. Safe haven for high stats at WashU is such a belittling comment on a school that's one of the best in this country.

You must be from a school with a small class and/or a huge medical system, my guess is either Stanford or Washu, to be the only med student on a team.
I personally never said they were cutthroat in the sense of sabotaging other people like the original connotation. I meant more the personality. There's definitely an east coast mentality vs. a more laid-back culture. It is similar to what you see in personalities that go to certain specialties, like surgery vs. psych.
I don't have a problem with people with high stats. But the high stats from WashU is different than the high stats from Harvard/Stanford. And schools with higher stats than Harvard/Stanford prioritize that, and so they tend to have people who are book-smart brilliant but mostly just that. It's actually ironic how WashU went along with the cancel US News movement when they fixate so much on playing the game.
As great as the health system and education in WashU is, you and I both know that location is a huge draw for med students, and St. Louis isn't it. So they tend to recruit (by dishing out huge amounts of scholarships) to students who have great test scores but don't have the ECs to get into the big 5, and/or who are affluent that they wouldn't get financial aid from those schools. Those personalities are who you'll spend four years with.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

You must be from a school with a small class and/or a huge medical system, my guess is either Stanford or Washu, to be the only med student on a team.
I personally never said they were cutthroat in the sense of sabotaging other people like the original connotation. I meant more the personality. There's definitely an east coast mentality vs. a more laid-back culture. It is similar to what you see in personalities that go to certain specialties, like surgery vs. psych.
I don't have a problem with people with high stats. But the high stats from WashU is different than the high stats from Harvard/Stanford. And schools with higher stats than Harvard/Stanford prioritize that, and so they tend to have people who are book-smart brilliant but mostly just that. It's actually ironic how WashU went along with the cancel US News movement when they fixate so much on playing the game.
As great as the health system and education in WashU is, you and I both know that location is a huge draw for med students, and St. Louis isn't it. So they tend to recruit (by dishing out huge amounts of scholarships) to students who have great test scores but don't have the ECs to get into the big 5, and/or who are affluent that they wouldn't get financial aid from those schools. Those personalities are who you'll spend four years with.

I am not at WashU. I think given the choice of WashU and Stanford, most people would pick Stanford. All I am saying is that WashU is a great school and one should consider a lot about things other than personalities when picking a school. TBH, my coach here is a WashU grad and he's probably the chilliest MD's you can ever meet.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

I am not at WashU. I think given the choice of WashU and Stanford, most people would pick Stanford. All I am saying is that WashU is a great school and one should consider a lot about things other than personalities when picking a school. TBH, my coach here is a WashU grad and he's probably the chilliest MD's you can ever meet.

I'm not saying they're horrible people, all I'm saying is it's a different culture. Not all surgeons are horrible either, but there's definitely a surgery culture.

 

[lacrossegirl420]

Hopkins

 

[deleted1065184]

Disagree with this. For sure the environment makes it worse, but schools select for certain things.

WashU has been known as the safe haven for those with high stats, I’ve repeatedly see people with high stats who were rejected from other top names but still accepted at washu with scholarship. This crowd also seems to be the ones who fixate on numbers, and that mentality and culture shows

What year of medical school are you in? Or are you a resident/attending?

 

[purplepea]

Totally fair, I wasn't discounting that I was just curious of the frequency. I.e. weekly or biweekly exams vs. 2 day exams which I presume are not that often? Not sure, that's why I asked lol.

like every 6-8 weeks I believe (after a block).

 

[airceezy]

Vanderbilt’s 1st year curriculum is two 6 week blocks, three 8 week blocks, and one 12 week block in that order.

 

[EndureVascular]

Based on what OP said I think they'd be happiest if they chose Hopkins and all the other schools are "They aren't Hopkins but xyz"