There's no purpose to the first 2 years of medical school. Change my mind.

[Lawpy]

If you're going into surgery then be aware the two most important classes you'll take are physics one and anatomy IMO.

Wait why physics?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Wait why physics?

Surgery is the application of physics on anatomy. Even something as simple as throwing an interrupted stitch is conceptually a combination of normal force, frictional force and pulleys. If you understand that concept you'll understand how to get good edges and how to avoid snapping stitches.

 

[anon6134]

Surgery is the application of physics on anatomy. Even something as simple as throwing an interrupted stitch is conceptually a combination of normal force, frictional force and pulleys. If you understand that concept you'll understand how to get good edges and how to avoid snapping stitches.

This is the most neurosurgery quote I've ever read. All due respect of course

 

[VincentAdultman]

In going to duck out now but I look forward to what I’m sure will be a long posting career from you.

Welp.

 

[Goro]

Not gloating; is anyone surprised that the OP got Bansmacked??

 

[tekkenman11]

No mandatory lectures unless it's clinical stuff brings orgasms to my ears.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Really frustrated with all the mandatory classes my school requires so I needed to vent, ****post, and fantasize about my ideal medical school preclinical situation.

Why can't all medical schools:
-Assign UFAPS for years 1 and 2 and make learning entirely independent
-Never have a mandatory lecture
-Save us thousands of $$$ for all the resources this would remove the need for
-Probably have all the students destroy step
-Increase the productivity of PhD professors wasting their time with the same lecture year after year allowing them to pursue something more positive

I actually think that getting rid of bachelors degree requirement can help shorten the Education tremendously.. Who needs rhetoric classes, sociology, history and government for med school anyways???

We do need the first 2 years.. Its the rite of passage..

 

[Angus Avagadro]

[/QUOTE]

Not gloating; is anyone surprised that the OP got Bansmacked??

Res Ipsa Loquitor

 

[Angus Avagadro]

With respect to tuition, many meds schools, are monolithic. They own an entire city block with multiple buildings, labs, clinics , etc. Their monthly costs to maintain all of this real estate is huge ,not to mention salaries for the people occupying them. Schools with TBL, PBL and INDEPENDENT study curriculla, require far fewer faculty and less space. These curricula require much more independent study time.Most schools offering these programs should have lower tuition. Ours does, and is quite low. So things are changing. Lastly, no one wants to hear this, especially from someone who's tuition was much lower compared to today, if you didnt do the math, shame on you. Cheaper school options do exist. Options other than loans do exist, military, National Health service scholarships, etc. Maybe cost should have been in the pre med lexicon when applying to schools.

 

[PharmFarmed]

What about this? Make med school two clinical years and replace the MCAT with STEP 1 for admissions. Saves everyone money and time.

This is actually genius

 

[Chibucks15]

This is actually genius

After studying for step 1 this is in fact the worst idea out there. This s*** sucks worse than any exam I’ve ever taken and makes no sense to try to have a college kid take it.

 

[NeuroticButCute]

After studying for step 1 this is in fact the worst idea out there. This s*** sucks worse than any exam I’ve ever taken and makes no sense to try to have a college kid take it.

Not to mention that Step 1 is literally the first step of your actual medical licensing, so why would you take a licensing exam before you're certain that you will even get into med school? The MCAT says exactly what it is- an admissions test. Step is part of becoming a full-fledged doctor, and it seems a bit premature (to me anyway) to force people to take the first step of a licensing process that they aren't guaranteed to get to finish

***I know that not EVERYONE who is in med school/ takes Step 1 is GUARANTEED to finish and become a doctor, but MOST do, and they certainly have better odds than people still hoping to even get accepted to med school.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Not to mention that Step 1 is literally the first step of your actual medical licensing, so why would you take a licensing exam before you're certain that you will even get into med school? The MCAT says exactly what it is- an admissions test. Step is part of becoming a full-fledged doctor, and it seems a bit premature (to me anyway) to force people to take the first step of a licensing process that they aren't guaranteed to get to finish

***I know that not EVERYONE who is in med school/ takes Step 1 is GUARANTEED to finish and become a doctor, but MOST do, and they certainly have better odds than people still hoping to even get accepted to med school.

Why wouldnt they do it when they can get so much revenue out of it.. 1200$ a piece from a bunch of students which 80-90% wont make it to the actual med school.

Actually, get rid of the other classes that are not required for a biology degree... So a high school student who wants to go to med school only takes the required prerequisites determined by AAMC..(those usual pre requisites)... They are then required to take MCAT.(No BS/BA degree is required).. So the student finishes (BIO, Chem, Anatomy, Biochem,Cell bio, mol bio, genetics)... so thats like 2 years of medicine then they can apply to get in for a 4 year med school.

Think about it.. why sociology, history, physics, math class... those are useless once you get in med school.

 

[olabrador23]

it grinds my gears that not all schools use NBME exams in MS1 & MS2. All schools should switch to NBME subject exams in pre-clinicals MS1 and MS2. No professor written exams since the NBME compose great standardized pre-clinical exams.

my guess is, not all schools want to be ranked or compared as the result of standardization, or to answer why people should go to their schools.

Why wouldnt they do it when they can get so much revenue out of it.. 1200$ a piece from a bunch of students which 80-90% wont make it to the actual med school.

Actually, get rid of the other classes that are not required for a biology degree... So a high school student who wants to go to med school only takes the required prerequisites determined by AAMC..(those usual pre requisites)... They are then required to take MCAT.(No BS/BA degree is required).. So the student finishes (BIO, Chem, Anatomy, Biochem,Cell bio, mol bio, genetics)... so thats like 2 years of medicine then they can apply to get in for a 4 year med school.

Think about it.. why sociology, history, physics, math class... those are useless once you get in med school.

I have not done a research on history of U.S. med schools' admission/requirement yet, but I remember reading that U.S. med schools used to require only 60-90 credits from any accredited college or university (plus the MCAT) for admission. Doctors from that those time are still fine doctors.

Med schools in many countries are accepting students straight out of high school (e.g. UK, France, Australia, etc). Personally, I don't think the physicians in those countries are any less (doctor) than those in the U.S.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

my guess is, not all schools want to be ranked or compared as the result of standardization, or to answer why people should go to their schools.



I have not done a research on history of U.S. med schools' admission/requirement yet, but I remember reading that U.S. med schools used to require only 60-90 credits from any accredited college or university (plus the MCAT) for admission. Doctors from that those time are still fine doctors.

Med schools in many countries are accepting students straight out of high school (e.g. UK, France, Australia, etc). Personally, I don't think the physicians in those countries are any less (doctor) than those in the U.S.

60-90 credits can also be excessive as a lot of them used to be classes like government, sociology, history that is of no use to you.

 

[raiderette]

I continue to be mortified when I here people encouraging fewer classes in arts, social sciences, humanities. I personally hate talking to people with no interest in art, politics, history, etc out in the real world. Maybe we need more people with outside perspectives if we want to lobby for our place in American society. We certainly need physicians who understand business, economics and how politics shape our professional challenges.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

the med schools outside US do not teach history, sociology, government... while it may be beneficial to you to just know about all this.. the way to shorten medical school is not to get rid of biology, biochem, genetics etc... when other countries have doctors graduating and practicing when they are 23-24 years old, it is a disadvantage to put all these unnecessary classes which just wastes time. None of the IMG's come here and take sociology, history, arts to get into residency...

By the way most of these classes are a requirement to graduate highschool

 

[Chibucks15]

the med schools outside US do not teach history, sociology, government... while it may be beneficial to you to just know about all this.. the way to shorten medical school is not to get rid of biology, biochem, genetics etc... when other countires have doctors graduating and practicing when they are 23-24 years old, it is a disadvantage to put all these unnecessary classes which just wastes time. None of the IMG's come here and take sociology, history, arts to get into residency...

By the way most of these classes are a requirement to graduate highschool

Idk about you but I needed some of those blow off classes in college. If I had to take nothing but Ochem and stuff I would’ve been a zombie.

 

[olabrador23]

the med schools outside US do not teach history, sociology, government... while it may be beneficial to you to just know about all this.. the way to shorten medical school is not to get rid of biology, biochem, genetics etc... when other countries have doctors graduating and practicing when they are 23-24 years old, it is a disadvantage to put all these unnecessary classes which just wastes time. None of the IMG's come here and take sociology, history, arts to get into residency...

By the way most of these classes are a requirement to graduate highschool

Agreed.

I understand the argument for being "well-rounded" but like Sleepingdoc has mentioned above, most of those classes are already required to graduate high school.

There is only so much time in one's lifetime. IMHO, we need basic understanding of how things work and learn how to think critically, not to become an expert in everything. If one knows how to learn and think, he/she will find out what to learn and learn quickly when the need arises.

The only people I see who would benefit from more time in school is schools.

Again, I do not think that doctors in other countries, where they go straight to med school from high school, are less doctor than doctors in the U.S. Or the doctors from the past where they, as students, only needed to have 60-90 credits.

 

[Chibucks15]

Agreed.

I understand the argument for being "well-rounded" but like Sleepingdoc has mentioned above, most of those classes are already required to graduate high school.

There is only so much time in one's lifetime. IMHO, we need basic understanding of how things work and learn how to think critically, not to become an expert in everything. If one knows how to learn and think, he/she will find out what to learn and learn quickly when the need arises.

The only people I see who would benefit from more time in school is schools.

Again, I do not think that doctors in other countries, where they go straight to med school from high school, are less doctor than doctors in the U.S. Or the doctors from the past where they, as students, only needed to have 60-90 credits.

I mean for me at least college was also a time to kinda grow up and learn how to be an adult. Which is a big loss if you crank out docs too young. I harp all the time about the differences in most non trads who have had to work in the real world vs the straight through people. It’s not everybody, but you can sure tell who’s actually dealt with adversity before when something minor comes up and everyone freaks out

Cut out some of the BS sure, but eliminating everything non science isn’t ideal in my opinion. Maturity is an asset to medicine when you’re actually doctoring and out of academics

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Doctors are thinking and compassionate scientists. The MCAT in days of old had general knowledge questions, current events, etc. To shorten school and have 22 yr old physicians counseling patients on marital issues, depression, or ED, is asking a lot. I'm not sure the 22 yr has the maturity or life experience to be competent in these areas. There is value in maturity, otherwise we all will end up being treated by nerds with no social skills or life experiences. I'm sure the newly minted attendings in their late 20s and early 30s would agree.

 

[olabrador23]

I mean for me at least college was also a time to kinda grow up and learn how to be an adult. Which is a big loss if you crank out docs too young. I harp all the time about the differences in most non trads who have had to work in the real world vs the straight through people. It’s not everybody, but you can sure tell who’s actually dealt with adversity before when something minor comes up and everyone freaks out

Cut out some of the BS sure, but eliminating everything non science isn’t ideal in my opinion. Maturity is an asset to medicine when you’re actually doctoring and out of academics

I am a non-traditional so I understand what you are talking about.

It is great to have time to grow up, work, overcome adversity, and/or have all that life experience. It is great for one to take all those classes for his/her own benefit. This should be personal choice/optional, not requirement/must-have.

I think, the medical school admission requirement in the U.S. has already become excessive. In fact, the U.S. and Canada are probably the only two countries in the world to require a bachelor degree, school's GPA and all those extracurricular and letters of recommendation for med school admission.

The argument is that docs in the US could have more time to serve society if they do not have to do all that to gain admission to med schools.

Med schools in other countries admit students straight out of high school based on their standardized test scores and their docs are fine (no freaks).

Are the U.S. and Canada are the only two countries in the world who get this right?

 

[raiderette]

I would be very interested in seeing a study of the success of those who didn't start off as premeds. I didn't start off as premeds. I toyed with the idea of nurse-midwifery, but also thought about politics and psychology. If I had to choose in HS, it wouldn't have been medicine. I know many people in med school who were not planning to go to med school as a junior in high school, and most of them are leaders in the classroom.
Just because it works in Europe, doesn't mean it will work here. Diversity is our advantage.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Doctors are thinking and compassionate scientists. The MCAT in days of old had general knowledge questions, current events, etc. To shorten school and have 22 yr old physicians counseling patients on marital issues, depression, or ED, is asking a lot. I'm not sure the 22 yr has the maturity or life experience to be competent in these areas. There is value in maturity, otherwise we all will end up being treated by nerds with no social skills or life experiences. I'm sure the newly minted attendings in their late 20s and early 30s would agree.

I see a lot of 22-23 year old IMG's that are starting residency in US who have no issues with maturity... They spend less money and time outside being trained and get a lot out of their medical education.

 

[Chibucks15]

I see a lot of 22-23 year old IMG's that are starting residency in US who have no issues with maturity... They spend less money and time outside being trained and get a lot out of their medical education.

And I see a ton of 22-23 year old med students who have massive issues with maturity. My anecdote is the same as yours. What’s your point?

 

[sunshinefl]

I think I’m an anomaly in this current climate of anti-student loan debt and anti-liberal arts education, but I hate hate hate when anyone says that they should only have to take things that are directly pertinent to their job, or that certain degrees are useless. I am very pro- broad-based, well-rounded, liberal arts education.

I personally graduated with like 220 credit hour single major bachelor degree prior to medical school because I took elective electives in a variety of subjects. Now, I’m not saying that everyone should have to go to that extreme before medical school, but we should definitely keep the requirement of a full, complete bachelor degree.

 

[olabrador23]

I see a lot of 22-23 year old IMG's that are starting residency in US who have no issues with maturity... They spend less money and time outside being trained and get a lot out of their medical education.

Again, I think the one that really benefits from more time in schools is schools (not doctors, patients, or society). The issue is that education in the U.S. is big business. With money it comes the power of lobbying, which is often not easily done (legally) in other countries.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

And I see a ton of 22-23 year old med students who have massive issues with maturity. My anecdote is the same as yours. What’s your point?

I was trying to point out some of the assumptions that were made in the quoted text above were not valid... you are just making a random statement

 

[Blackdogue]

Why is everyone saying that European students are doctors at 22? Med school is six years in Europe, they're 24, just two years younger than Americans.

 

[Chibucks15]

I was trying to point out some of the assumptions that were made in the quoted text above were not valid... you are just making a random statement

I am countering your point, and in no way a random statement

 

[Sleepingdoc]

I think I’m an anomaly in this current climate of anti-student loan debt and anti-liberal arts education, but I hate hate hate when anyone says that they should only have to take things that are directly pertinent to their job, or that certain degrees are useless. I am very pro- broad-based, well-rounded, liberal arts education.

I personally graduated with like 220 credit hour single major bachelor degree prior to medical school because I took elective electives in a variety of subjects. Now, I’m not saying that everyone should have to go to that extreme before medical school, but we should definitely keep the requirement of a full, complete bachelor degree.

Why stop at a bachelors degree???? why not make PhD's a requirement... they will be more mature right... , this is just wasting time which has little benefit to society.. Would it be great to have a PhD who is a doctor..Yes.. but its unnecessary and excessive for what the end goal is to have competent physicians who are trained and benefit to our society.

 

[olabrador23]

Why is everyone saying that European students are doctors at 22? Med school is six years in Europe, they're 24, just two years younger than Americans.

it makes sense as it is the same as when U.S. med schools required only 60-90 college credits for admission.

Why stop at a bachelors degree???? why not make PhD's a requirement... they will be more mature right... , this is just wasting time which has little benefit to society.. Would it be great to have a PhD who is a doctor..Yes.. but its unnecessary and excessive for what the end goal is to have competent physicians who are trained and benefit to our society.

yup, at that rate, before one could be admitted to med school, one needs to be an engineer, lawyer, psychologist, sociologist.... basically a Superman / woman

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Why is everyone saying that European students are doctors at 22? Med school is six years in Europe, they're 24, just two years younger than Americans.

A lot of them graduate high school at the age of 16. if not almost all of them by 17
16+6
They are trained so that they actually start practicing right after med school. No residency..

 

[sunshinefl]

Why stop at a bachelors degree???? why not make PhD's a requirement... they will be more mature right... , this is just wasting time which has little benefit to society.. Would it be great to have a PhD who is a doctor..Yes.. but its unnecessary and excessive for what the end goal is to have competent physicians who are trained and benefit to our society.

Because a bachelors degree is when you get a broad education. Graduate degrees are specialized, and have larger emphasis on conducting research. Bachelors degree is the obvious end point here.

 

[olabrador23]

I would be very interested in seeing a study of the success of those who didn't start off as premeds. I didn't start off as premeds. I toyed with the idea of nurse-midwifery, but also thought about politics and psychology. If I had to choose in HS, it wouldn't have been medicine. I know many people in med school who were not planning to go to med school as a junior in high school, and most of them are leaders in the classroom.
Just because it works in Europe, doesn't mean it will work here. Diversity is our advantage.

it also does not mean that we should not question the way it is done in the U.S. when the rest of the world does the same task for less time and money.

(we might have more money but I am not sure if we have more time )

 

[TheIllusionist]

lol high school in most of america is a joke. thats why foreign kids are mature at 22 and US kids need undergrad to grow up

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Because a bachelors degree is when you get a broad education. Graduate degrees are specialized, and have larger emphasis on conducting research. Bachelors degree is the obvious end point here.

Bachelors degree is not broad... Its specific.. thats why people get a BS/BA degree in Biology... and its different from BS in Accounting... and a lot of filler classes shared between them.. In that case we need students to take all the classes offered as an undergrad.

 

[olabrador23]

Because a bachelors degree is when you get a broad education. Graduate degrees are specialized, and have larger emphasis on conducting research. Bachelors degree is the obvious end point here.

I think most if not all bachelor's degree have the same liberal arts requirement, which was included in the 60-90 college credits requirement for med school admission back in the day. The rest of the credits for bachelor's degree are just the required classes for the major and have nothing with "broad education".

lol high school in most of america is a joke. thats why foreign kids are mature at 22 and US kids need undergrad to grow up

maybe we need to reform high school education???

Bachelors degree is not broad... Its specific.. thats why people get a BS/BA degree in Biology... and its different from BS in Accounting... and a lot of filler classes shared between them.. In that case we need students to take all the classes offered as an undergrad.

you beat me to it

 

[Blackdogue]

A lot of them graduate high school at the age of 16. if not almost all of them by 17
16+6
They are trained so that they actually start practicing right after med school. No residency..

Europeans graduate HS at 17-18 and Germans even had an extra year for some time graduating at 18-19. Practicing without a residency is unheard of in modern Europe. It used to be that you could practice only as a gp without residency, but as far as I know this changed in the 80s. The youngest doctors graduate a few months shy of 24.
Plus some countries have a mandatory internship between med school and residency. In my country it's twelve months in an area of need, for example.

 

[olabrador23]

it makes sense as it is the same as when U.S. med schools required only 60-90 college credits for admission.



yup, at that rate, before one could be admitted to med school, one needs to be an engineer, lawyer, psychologist, sociologist.... basically a Superman / woman

funny thing is, when I read threads about Step 1 P/F, many of those Superman / woman want less "stress" in med school and on the Step...

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Europeans graduate HS at 17-18 and Germans even had an extra year for some time graduating at 18-19. Practicing without a residency is unheard of in modern Europe. It used to be that you could practice only as a gp without residency, but as far as I know this changed in the 80s. The youngest doctors graduate a few months shy of 24.
Plus some countries have a mandatory internship between med school and residency. In my country it's twelve months in an area of need, for example.

Sorry, I meant more about students and med schools in asia/india/china. I actually have no idea how Europe does things.

 

[Blackdogue]

Well, I was also pretty surprised when I went to Indonesia for summer practice. It was exactly how you described.

Sorry, I meant more about students and med schools in asia/india/china. I actually have no idea how Europe does things.

 

[nimbus]

And I see a ton of 22-23 year old med students who have massive issues with maturity. My anecdote is the same as yours. What’s your point?

Meh. I see 50yo attendings who have problems with maturity

 

[olabrador23]

Meh. I see 50yo attendings who have problems with maturity

lesson: maturity has nothing to do with age.

 

[de Ribas]

lol high school in most of america is a joke. thats why foreign kids are mature at 22 and US kids need undergrad to grow up

Exactly, what they teach in US high schools, middle school students in other countries already covered.

 

[Araedia]

Sorry, I meant more about students and med schools in asia/india/china. I actually have no idea how Europe does things.

India follows the European model of graduating high school at 18 -> 6 years of med school + required residency, as do a lot of other Asian countries

 

[Splenda88]

Doctors are thinking and compassionate scientists. The MCAT in days of old had general knowledge questions, current events, etc. To shorten school and have 22 yr old physicians counseling patients on marital issues, depression, or ED, is asking a lot. I'm not sure the 22 yr has the maturity or life experience to be competent in these areas. There is value in maturity, otherwise we all will end up being treated by nerds with no social skills or life experiences. I'm sure the newly minted attendings in their late 20s and early 30s would agree.

N=1. We are at the end of PG1 and There is a 23 yo IMG among us and she is just as mature as most of us...

 

[ExplodingUlcers]

Sorry, I meant more about students and med schools in asia/india/china. I actually have no idea how Europe does things.

My stepfather grew up in an Asian country. He was a C student over there but interestingly enough, he graduated at the top of his highschool/college here in the US and later went on to study medicine at a school in the north east.

He explained that the way it's set up in Japan is kids are regimented since day one to adhere to very high expectations and are constantly having to undergo high stakes exams that determine which middle school and high school they get into which then determines what type of career and/or higher level education (i.e. med school) is available to them.

Compare this with the American system where you can do poorly on the SAT and graduate from an a lesser funded high school/college and still have a very real chance of going to med school rather than having that door shut at such a young age. I know a guy who was a screw off in high school, graduated with a trash GPA and even came close to getting expelled but now studies at Harvard Law just by being allowed the opportunity to go to a community college, transfer to a prestigious four year University and destroy the LSAT. For what it's worth, my step dad has told me that he prefers the American system because it allows you to have this type of mobility in choosing a career at any point of one's academic journey.

The reason I point this out is not to necessarily change your mind about how sh*tty the status quo is here. FWIW I do agree with a lot of your points but my aim is simply to question the line of thinking that the grass is greener in other countries just because they churn out doctors at a younger age when the reality is that they may have it harder than us in a lot of other ways that may not seem obvious.

Furthermore, I'm of the opinion that having time to discover for yourself some sort of passion for medicine before making the plunge is ultimately to your benefit and the system here in the US allows for this type of exploration. That in and of itself is something you shouldn't take for granted.

Just my two cents.

 

[VincentAdultman]

Just my experience but I wish I had taken more history and philosophy in college, not less.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

India follows the European model of graduating high school at 18 -> 6 years of med school + required residency, as do a lot of other Asian countries

That is just not true at all... there is no residency requirements in India because i know a lot of people from there who had the MBBS and came for residency here in US... Most people start school when they are 5 years old..... 5+12= 17... then 17+6 without residency when they practice.