There's no purpose to the first 2 years of medical school. Change my mind.

[afib123]

Can you show me the gun that was put to your head that made you apply to medical school, and matriculate?

You chose this path

So what? I love being a doctor and whether you like it or not I will be a surgeon in a year graduating amongst the top students in my class and my test scores and clinical grades (shelf scores + evaluations) put me amongst the top students across the country.

Just because I love being a doctor, that doesn't mean students should be asked to pay hundreds of thousands dollars when they can learn it on their own.

I will pay 200,000 for last 2 years if that's what is needed for me to be in the hospital. That is necessary but what medical students pay the first 2 years is absolutely unnecessary.

After going through medical school and realizing how much of a waste of money first 2 years is, I am not allowed to talk about it?

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[Mass Effect]

This has literally nothing to do with the point you are trying to make

Of course it does for someone who takes the time to read and consider what's said. Condensing the curriculum to 2 years and making Step 1 the new MCAT suggests that undergrads will be studying for Step 1 rather than the MCAT and in place of entering the first two years of med school immediately after undergrad at age 21, they will be entering the clinical years, meaning they will graduate med school at age 23 or 24. It's a pretty simple concept to grasp.

The first two years teaches you basically none of this...you learn how to take a patient history (which just consists of memorizes a bunch of questions you have no idea the application of yet) and physical on standardized patients. I could learn this with a friend and a week of time. Then you're in the clinical maybe 8-10 times doing glorified shadowing. There's definitely arguments for the value of the first two years (learning the stuff to recognize it), but let's be real there is basically nothing learned that couldn't be easily learned on one's own.

Sounds like your med school did a pretty bad job. Anyone who sees patient histories as just a bunch of "memorized" questions shouldn't pass.

I think these are the new “empty words” medicine. Words that literally mean nothing.

Reminds me a lot of those “we treat the patient not the disease” empty words that DOs love to throw around.

Edit: Ok I re-read your post and it’s basically all empty words, straw-men, or factually incorrect so I’m not even going to respond

LOL, that's ok because I'm pretty sure everything I said went way over your head since it "literally" means nothing. All the more evidence for not shortening the curriculum.

 

[Raney Schauer]

Tell that to the numerous people who score 250+ consistently year after year using nothing but UFAP and zanki



First off f- your b- and the clique u claim

LOL wut does that even mean
ignore list for obvious crazy

 

[700825]

Sounds like your med school did a pretty bad job. Anyone who sees patient histories as just a bunch of "memorized" questions shouldn't pass.

I love this attitude on SDN. Anyone who didn't gain profound impact from XYZ is going to be terrible clinician and shouldn't be a doctor

But to answer your claim, that is all a pre-clinical history is. While the questions are important, and I understand why we ask them, they are still just memorized questions. Same questions, every patient, every time. There is no thought going into a pre-clinical history.

So my questions remains, what do I gain by learning these questions, asking them to a standardized patient, and then coming up with a diff dx, that I wouldn't learn by doing the exact same thing with a friend? And what does this have to do with learning how to be a good doctor (most I've seen vary their questioning based on the patient and do it like a normal conversation, not a forced check box encounter that pre-clinical requires)?

 

[7331poas]

The smell of cognitive dissonance is strong in this one.

That's the best you can do? "I'll bet they're bad studies"?

I'm not providing citations because it's the weekend and this is SDN, not a submission to the British Medical journal

Again, can you show us the gun that was put to your head that made you apply to medical school, and matriculate?

You chose this path.

Great argument.

"We do not need to change. Also you have no right to propose changes because you agreed to the terms".

Resident suicide should not be address either because those residents understood the workload when they applied to medical school?

 

[Mass Effect]

I love this attitude on SDN. Anyone who didn't gain profound impact from XYZ is going to be terrible clinician and shouldn't be a doctor

But to answer your claim, that is all a pre-clinical history is. While the questions are important, and I understand why we ask them, they are still just memorized questions. Same questions, every patient, every time. There is no thought going into a pre-clinical history.

So my questions remains, what do I gain by learning these questions, asking them to a standardized patient, and then coming up with a diff dx, that I wouldn't learn by doing the exact same thing with a friend? And what does this have to do with learning how to be a good doctor (most I've seen vary their questioning based on the patient and do it like a normal conversation, not a forced check box encounter that pre-clinical requires)?

To suggest there is no thought in getting a history proves how much you need the education of the first two years. It's actually quite scary and absurd that you'd advocate for less education while claiming that history is just memorized questions with no thought.

 

[afib123]

The smell of cognitive dissonance is strong in this one.

That's the best you can do? "I'll bet they're bad studies"?

I'm not providing citations because it's the weekend and this is SDN, not a submission to the British Medical journal

Again, can you show us the gun that was put to your head that made you apply to medical school, and matriculate?

You chose this path.

Absolutely ridiculous argument. Like I said in my previous post, I am going to be a surgeon graduating in the top of my class in an year. There is no reason for me to care about this issue because I already wasted my money and I am done with step 1, but I do because medical students should not be paying 100,000 to professors when they can learn that material on their own.

Even if I knew coming into medical school that I can self-study first 2 years (I did not know coming in), I still would because love to be a doctor. That does not mean I am not going to give my voice to make medical education less of a burden on students. Even if the tuition decreases 5000 a year, I will take it because any money on an unnecessary resource is waste of money.

Medical schools can come up with whatever gimmicks they want to, but the fact is that any money spent on professors to teach whether in PBL or traditional lecturing is a waste of money. Medical students can learn that material on their own and decrease their debt load.

 

[Splenda88]

There are 3-year programs in reputable schools... that alone should be enough to make everyone else ask why they are forking over many thousands of extra tuition dollars if the outcome is the same.

And if the argument is that they are lesser physicians... I’m gonna’ need to see data to prove it.

I think the real answer is simpler

Well, you will see a bunch of attendings here that will find some kind of excuses to justify the 4 years...

I know someone where I attended med school who did a 2-yr FM residency in Canada and he is working as an FM doc now in NY. But if we do the same here, the older attendings will say FM docs are going to start killing a lot of people.

It is past time for med school to be 3-prereq, 3-yr med school (and 2-yr residency for some primary care specialties)

 

[Goro]

Great argument.

"We do not need to change. Also you have no right to propose changes because you agreed to the terms".

Resident suicide should not be address either because those residents understood the workload when they applied to medical school?

I never said that we don't need to change. Didn't I point out that the OP, as an adult [although based upon his post history, giving him the benefit of the doubt on that one] learner, should not be forced to attend lectures?

The problem with preclinical med students is, like NPs and PAs, they don't know what they don't know.

And thus we get threads like this all the time, and there is a theme:
M1 and M2s: We can do preclinicals by UFAP alone!!!

Residents and attendings: Yeah, no.

Resident suicides? Terrible, horrible......but outside the scope of this thread.

Personally, I think that medical education should move to a five year model (but only four years of tuition, please). Some schools are moving to three years, so change is out there.

 

[700825]

To suggest there is no thought in getting a history proves how much you need the education of the first two years. It's actually quite scary and absurd that you'd advocate for less education while claiming that history is just memorized questions with no thought.

Okay, you continue to claim "I need more education", but have yet to refute anything I've said. Explain what thought goes into asking a list of pre-given question to a standardized patient?

And then, assuming you actually have anything of value to add, explain to me why this could not be learned on one's own (for a fraction of the cost)?

 

[afib123]

I don't really know what OP's post history is and whether he sounded like an adult before (like someone in this thread is suggesting) but I have the experience and authority to say medical school professors in the first 2 years are an unnecessary resource and medical students do not need to be paying any money for that resource.

This is coming from someone who has excelled in medical school for all 3 years and will likely have a successful match in a competitive surgical subspecialty.

The older attendings, I suspect, have no idea about what kind of resources are in the market and how good they are. They also did not have the debt burden that current medical students do. Any practical proposal that decreases tuition should be considered seriously.

 

[Mass Effect]

Okay, you continue to claim "I need more education", but have yet to refute anything I've said. Explain what thought goes into asking a list of pre-given question to a standardized patient?

And then, assuming you actually have anything of value to add, explain to me why this could not be learned on one's own (for a fraction of the cost)?

Every question you're asking is supposed to be about you THINKING about what's going on. You don't just ask a list of questions. You ask what's going on to begin your differential and the next several questions you ask are meant to weed things out of your broad differential. You are hurting your argument by claiming there's no thought that goes into asking those questions.

Also, stop being a jerk when you're asking others to educate you on things you should know. Come back to this thread in about 4 years and you'll realize how absurd your assertions are.

 

[RNthenDoc]

The problem with preclinical med students is, like NPs and PAs, they don't know what they don't know.

This argument comes up constantly.

I can make the same argument about medical school administrators and professors, though.

In fact, I would be willing to bet that I’m more adept with educational technology than many of my professors (who need help getting their PowerPoint opened/struggle with hyperlinks). They just don’t know what they don’t know.

Not a super helpful observation, though, is it?

 

[700825]

Every question you're asking is supposed to be about you THINKING about what's going on. You don't just ask a list of questions. You ask what's going on to begin your differential and the next several questions you ask are meant to weed things out of your broad differential. You are hurting your argument by claiming there's no thought that goes into asking those questions.

Also, stop being a jerk when you're asking others to educate you on things you should know. Come back to this thread in about 4 years and you'll realize how absurd your assertions are.

You're assuming I get the chance to pick and chose what questions I ask or don't ask...which is not the case (at least at my school). I'm sure this changes as a 3rd year, but when I'm forced to ask every question, every time and not add any 'new' questions (which is the case as an M1-2) where is the thinking? I'm not arguing that I have a ton to learn in terms of becoming a good clinician. I'm arguing that it is not going to happen in the first two years of medical school.

And really? You've told me my school was terrible, I shouldn't have been allowed to pass, and that I'm uneducated on multiple occasions. I said something that was at worst passive-aggressive.

And since I'm not going to change your mind, let's just assume I'm ignorant and learning all of these questions (and then some) is vital to my education, could this not be learned on one's own?

 

[Cassowary]

This argument comes up constantly.

I can make the same argument about medical school administrators and professors, though.

In fact, I would be willing to bet that I’m more adept with educational technology than many of my professors (who need help getting their PowerPoint opened/struggle with hyperlinks). They just don’t know what they don’t know.

Not a super helpful observation, though, is it?

It really comes down to old, stubborn, out of touch admins (oh sorry, faculty) being resistant to change.

UFAPS (including sketchy and zanki) haven't even been around long enough for attendings to have used. Someone said attendings and residents don't think UFAPS is enough. No idea which polls he ran to get that opinion.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Every question you're asking is supposed to be about you THINKING about what's going on. You don't just ask a list of questions. You ask what's going on to begin your differential and the next several questions you ask are meant to weed things out of your broad differential. You are hurting your argument by claiming there's no thought that goes into asking those questions.

No one is saying that an actual history is rote memorization.... to argue that a first or early second year is doing anything other than going through .a memorized checklist while doing a history on a fake patient (for a grade at a huge amount of schools nonetheless) is completely asinine. The thinking part doesn't actually come until you have enough knowledge to, you know, actually think through what you're doing. This doesn't come until, at the very earliest, the end of second year, and most of the time it doesn't happen until after people have done enough Step 1 prep that all the info is connecting in their head.

This is literally the whole point of medical training. Starting from complete scratch and then spitting out a product at the end that has all the skills necessary to safely and competently practice medicine at the end. Being able to sit down, go through a history and come up with a finely honed and accurate differential at the end is a skill that most physicians are continuously trying to perfect even as attendings.

However, I agree that pre-clinical should be more than just UFAP. We need a pre-clinical period in medical school. We need to be taught the basics. We need the standardized patients, physicians to come teach us the practical application the PhDs will never be able to, basic skills in writing a SOAP note, the beginning thought process for a differential, and dare I say even the free clinic nights we have twice a semester where we practice taking a real history and presenting to an attending on actual bona fide patients.

What we don't need is to pay 50k+ a semester for garbage, unstandardized lectures that 90% (in my class anyway) of us never attend. Huge chunks of students never even WATCH these lectures and perform very well in school. Let's be honest here. Even with all the stuff I mention in the last paragraph there is no reason tuition is what it is. No it isn't a scam, but it is total robbery.

Lol I started out addressing your comment and then ended on a soapbox

tldr. I think you are misunderstanding what that poster is saying. I agree the first 2 years are necessary, while also agreeing that tuition is outrageous because most of us aren't learning medicine from our school's PhDs anymore.

 

[Dwan]

Every question you're asking is supposed to be about you THINKING about what's going on. You don't just ask a list of questions. You ask what's going on to begin your differential and the next several questions you ask are meant to weed things out of your broad differential. You are hurting your argument by claiming there's no thought that goes into asking those questions.

Also, stop being a jerk when you're asking others to educate you on things you should know. Come back to this thread in about 4 years and you'll realize how absurd your assertions are.

I don't know what incredible school you go to where newly minted M3s are actually doing higher order thinking (and have enough clinical knowledge to do so). Even if you think it's possible, most people are so busy studying for exams in the pre-clinicals. I and many others from my school could barely spit out our pre-generated list of questions at the very start of our clinical rotations (I still carried around my card cheat-sheet the first week). Still ended up fine, got great letters/clinical evals, and was able to match into a top tier residency.

 

[Ho0v-man]

You're paying for your clinical training. It all goes into that pool because your clinical training is for more expensive. Would you rather be charged double the amount for your last two years of medical school?

Medical schools actually lose money on medical students. Any decent pathology or physiology Department can make more money on indirects from extramural Grants than an entire Class of students will pay in tuition.

And really, don't excite medical literature? That'll go over well with clinical studies. If you can find some studies that show independent studying is better, please cite them we will all be interested in seeing those.

With all due respect, this is a rather poor argument. Why is it mine or any other medical students problem that the department makes more money from grants, etc? This does in no way excuse poor quality, unstandardized, and inefficient lectures. I’m still paying a fortune and I deserve a high quality education. As physicians, the minimum acceptable performance for us is excellence. It’s not unreasonable to expect at least mediocrity from the people who train us. (For the record, I doubt you fall into the category of substandard professors we’re all complaining about.)

If these professors would rather be doing research and not teaching medical students thats fine. Work somewhere else. But please show me a picture of someone holding a gun to their head forcing them to work at a medical school.

They chose this path.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

Take a hard look at this table of revenues and expenditures at D.O. schools for the 2016 academic year.

https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/fy2016-revenues-and-expenditures-by-osteopathic-medical-college.pdf?sfvrsn=fa392597_10

Every private established D.O. school made a profit. As a group the tuition at private D.O. medical schools exceeded total expenditures by $116 million. Tuition exceeded "Instruction Teaching and Training" at private schools by $725 million.

The tuition, at Midwestern in Chicago, was four times as high as its cost of "Instruction Teaching and Training". Marian's DO school made a profit of $9.75 million on $22 million of tuition revenue. All of this occurred in spite of the fact that these schools are irrationally creating their own exams, outlines, videos and Powerpoints.

Don't let anybody tell you that medical students are being subsidized.

 

[thegreatandmythical227]

No one is saying that an actual history is rote memorization.... to argue that a first or early second year is doing anything other than going through .a memorized checklist while doing a history on a fake patient (for a grade at a huge amount of schools nonetheless) is completely asinine. The thinking part doesn't actually come until you have enough knowledge to, you know, actually think through what you're doing. This doesn't come until, at the very earliest, the end of second year, and most of the time it doesn't happen until after people have done enough Step 1 prep that all the info is connecting in their head.

This is literally the whole point of medical training. Starting from complete scratch and then spitting out a product at the end that has all the skills necessary to safely and competently practice medicine at the end. Being able to sit down, go through a history and come up with a finely honed and accurate differential at the end is a skill that most physicians are continuously trying to perfect even as attendings.

However, I agree that pre-clinical should be more than just UFAP. We need a pre-clinical period in medical school. We need to be taught the basics. We need the standardized patients, physicians to come teach us the practical application the PhDs will never be able to, basic skills in writing a SOAP note, the beginning thought process for a differential, and dare I say even the free clinic nights we have twice a semester where we practice taking a real history and presenting to an attending on actual bona fide patients.

What we don't need is to pay 50k+ a semester for garbage, unstandardized lectures that 90% (in my class anyway) of us never attend. Huge chunks of students never even WATCH these lectures and perform very well in school. Let's be honest here. Even with all the stuff I mention in the last paragraph there is no reason tuition is what it is. No it isn't a scam, but it is total robbery.

Lol I started out addressing your comment and then ended on a soapbox

tldr. I think you are misunderstanding what that poster is saying. I agree the first 2 years are necessary, while also agreeing that tuition is outrageous because most of us aren't learning medicine from our school's PhDs anymore.

I agree with you on most of this. I will say that some doctors are terrible teachers. At my friends school, they had an ophthalmologist who came in to teach them about the eye exam and didn't even know how to operate the opthalmoscope.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

So what? I love being a doctor and whether you like it or not I will be a surgeon in a year graduating amongst the top students in my class and my test scores and clinical grades (shelf scores + evaluations) put me amongst the top students across the country.

Just because I love being a doctor, that doesn't mean students should be asked to pay hundreds of thousands dollars when they can learn it on their own.

I will pay 200,000 for last 2 years if that's what is needed for me to be in the hospital. That is necessary but what medical students pay the first 2 years is absolutely unnecessary.

After going through medical school and realizing how much of a waste of money first 2 years is, I am not allowed to talk about it?

I would offer 2 pieces of advice here.

First, while you are rightfully proud of your accomplishments the way you phrase it, especially in a thread like this, can come off in a bad way.

Second, there are students who learn better with lectures/PBL/whatever. I'm not sure doing away with something just because you did not find the benefit is the wisest course.

For what its worth, even though I do believe in the traditional med school model I think mandatory attendance is BS. Do away with that, make school cheaper, and this thread doesn't have a purpose anymore.

 

[deleted407021]

Med students would greatly benefit from organizing. There are way, way more of us than there are of them. If tens of thousands of students all stood up at once and declared they weren’t going to pay tuition to hear the 4th PhD lecture on gut microbiota and patronizing wellness lectures, what the hell are the schools going to do?

Kick out all the students and create an unprecedented national education scandal and replace them all easily because there are even more desperate scabs who want to be doctors than there are students....

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Med students would greatly benefit from organizing. There are way, way more of us than there are of them. If tens of thousands of students all stood up at once and declared they weren’t going to pay tuition to hear the 4th PhD lecture on gut microbiota and patronizing wellness lectures, what the hell are the schools going to do?

Kick out all the students and create an unprecedented national education scandal and replace them all easily because there are even more desperate scabs who want to be doctors than there are students....

Expel you and replace you with the thousands of applicants who don't get in every year?

 

[deleted407021]

Expel you and replace you with the thousands of applicants who don't get in every year?

Exactly as I said.

 

[Chibucks15]

Exactly as I said.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find many people willing to unionize and actually pull off something that massive. People talk a big game on an anonymous online forum used primarily for venting so we all stay (relatively) sane, but when it actually comes to risking your career you've worked so hard and put so much money into? I'll take a hard pass. What its gonna take is the docs who are already out to do something or god forbid the government actually taking ownership of this asinine student loan practices that got us into this mess to begin with

 

[Splenda88]

Med students would greatly benefit from organizing. There are way, way more of us than there are of them. If tens of thousands of students all stood up at once and declared they weren’t going to pay tuition to hear the 4th PhD lecture on gut microbiota and patronizing wellness lectures, what the hell are the schools going to do?

Kick out all the students and create an unprecedented national education scandal and replace them all easily because there are even more desperate scabs who want to be doctors than there are students....

Remember what happened with step2 CS...

We are a bunch of smart people who have no idea how to fight abusive systems... Look at what is happening to medicine in general. Administrators who have their business degrees at University of Phenix are taking us to the cleaners.

 

[Lawpy]

Remember what happened with step2 CS...

We are a bunch of smart people who have no idea how to fight abusive systems... Look at what is happening to medicine in general. Administrators who have their business degrees at University of Phenix are taking us to the cleaners.

It also doesnt help that most doctors and students don’t have great business knowledge to begin with. It’d probably help if administrators were MD/MBAs

 

[Splenda88]

I would offer 2 pieces of advice here.

First, while you are rightfully proud of your accomplishments the way you phrase it, especially in a thread like this, can come off in a bad way.

Second, there are students who learn better with lectures/PBL/whatever. I'm not sure doing away with something just because you did not find the benefit is the wisest course.

For what its worth, even though I do believe in the traditional med school model I think mandatory attendance is BS. Do away with that, make school cheaper, and this thread doesn't have a purpose anymore.

Why proposing a solution that you know will never happen when there is another one that seems more feasible? We all know medical school tuition will NEVER take a downward trajectory unless the government stop giving out loan

 

[Chibucks15]

Why proposing a solution that you know will never happen when there is another one that seems more feasible? We all know medical school tuition will NEVER take a downward trajectory unless the government stop giving out loan

Exactly. Its the same thing as undergrad loans. If the government will continue to give endless supplies of student loans, then why not jack tuition up and pad your pockets? Its (scummy) human nature, and there is zero incentive to stop the cycle. The bubble is gonna pop just like the mortgage crisis.

It all stems (like always) from greedy ass people taking advantage of the system, and they're influential enough to buy out Congress and nothing ever gets done. And if it does get done, its 10 years too late and people suffer hardcore. The brightside is is that once we're actually doctors we're pretty well insulated from the aftermath

 

[deleted407021]

Why proposing a solution that you know will never happen when there is another one that seems more feasible? We all know medical school tuition will NEVER take a downward trajectory unless the government stop giving out loan

If the government hadn’t given me a loan I wouldn’t be in medical school.

 

[Chibucks15]

If the government hadn’t given me a loan I wouldn’t be in medical school.

Neither would I. But if they put at least some regulations on the greedy SOBs jacking up tuition 5% every year because of ‘inflation’ or whatever the reasoning they choose to give, the burden wouldn’t be like it is now and it wouldn’t be heading off a cliff

 

[7331poas]

Neither would I. But if they put at least some regulations on the greedy SOBs jacking up tuition 5% every year because of ‘inflation’ or whatever the reasoning they choose to give, the burden wouldn’t be like it is now and it wouldn’t be heading off a cliff

Placing a price ceiling on a private good is staunchly against many American's moral drive.

 

[Splenda88]

If the government hadn’t given me a loan I wouldn’t be in medical school.

Neither would I, hence the solution that the poster I quoted is proposing is impossible. There will be "complaints" from the lower middle class and poor people if the government stop giving out loans since medicine is already a field that is mostly accessible to people coming from the upper middle class and up...

The easiest solution is to try to adjust the first two years in a way that bring down tuition considerably. How about students go to school once every 2 weeks in MS1 for PBL (whatever they call it these days) and few sessions of patient encounters.

In MS2, they can go to free clinics etc... once every week or 2 to practice these skills on real patients...

 

[Splenda88]

Placing a price ceiling on a private good is staunchly against many American's moral drive.

True, but we do that when there is a natural disaster...

 

[deleted407021]

Neither would I, hence the solution that the poster I quoted is proposing is impossible. There will be "complaints" from the lower middle class and poor people if the government stop giving out loans since medicine is already a field that is mostly accessible to people coming from the upper middle class and up...

The easiest solution is to try to adjust the first two years in a way that bring down tuition considerably. How about students go to school once every 2 weeks in MS1 for PBL (whatever they call it these days) and few sessions of patient encounters.

In MS2, they can go to free clinics etc... once every week or 2 to practice these skills with real patients...

How about medical tuition is fully subsidized after tuition is lowered aggressively by legislation? Additionally, funding more residencies, something thankfully already in the works. Training physicians would be prioritized in a country that did things that made sense.

 

[Chibucks15]

Placing a price ceiling on a private good is staunchly against many American's moral drive.

It isn't a price ceiling. I'm the furthest thing from the 'free college' train, but its damn exploitative what some colleges are doing, and when there is literally no reason for universities to not price gouge it will continue to spiral. If a university degree wasn't a necessity for the vast majority of jobs, then I'd see your point. Its literally the same thing as the mortgage crisis.

Secondly, if the system continues as is, it isn't just going to affect the people who got BS majors for 70 grand a year. Its already slowing the housing market for young professionals, and if everybody has to default guess who's gonna have to pick up the bill via taxation? Clearly you can't be that blind to the obvious economic impact of this long term.

 

[Splenda88]

How about medical tuition is fully subsidized after tuition is lowered aggressively by legislation? Additionally, funding more residencies, something thankfully already in the works. Training physicians would be prioritized in a country that did things that made sense.

You think the public who already hate physicians because they think we are aloof to their concerns would stomach the government subsidizing medical education for a bunch of people who are going to be millionaires in the 40s... Really!

 

[afib123]

well the med schools keep hiring new deans. dean of diversity, dean of wellness, dean of clinical center, dean of something irrelevant, the price is going to up and up every year.

Nice to see other med students speak up. Maybe we will have more control and still care and try to change it once we become attendings unlike the ones now (no offense to you guys but clearly you either have no control or don't care). I will say there is one attending in this thread that does seem to advocate for lowering tuition but not sure if they are involved on that level in the medical school

 

[deleted407021]

You think the public who already hate physicians because they think we are aloof to their concerns would stomach the government subsidizing medical education for a bunch of people who are going to be millionaires in the 40s... Really!

If it were folded in to fully subsidized undergraduate education, then yes. If physicians were the only ones getting that kind of help, then obviously it would be wrong.

 

[thegreatandmythical227]

This is why I find Sanders and Warren pretty appealing, outside of their social platforms. All we need is to make sure that students are held accountable for their actions if we implement this.

 

[Goro]

The OP was asking about doing the first two years independently, and now it's become a tuition bitchfest. Focus, SDNers.

 

[Chibucks15]

View attachment 260370
The OP was asking about doing the first two years independently, and now it's become a tuition bitchfest. Focus, SDNers.

Eh I wouldnt call it a bitchfest these are pretty legit concerns

 

[Splenda88]

well the med schools keep hiring new deans. dean of diversity, dean of wellness, dean of clinical center, dean of something irrelevant, the price is going to up and up every year.

Nice to see other med students speak up. Maybe we will still care and try to change it once we become attendings unlike the ones now (no offense to you guys but clearly you either have no control or don't care)

It's not only med student who should speak; newly minted physicians and residents should as well. I am already a resident and probably will not benefit from any needed changes...

Attendance was not mandatory at my school for MS2 when I was there (and it was the first time they tried that)... and <5 people usually attended these lectures. So why are we paying 35k+/yr intuition when we can learn these things ourselves? You know what happened! Students who were struggling during MS1 started doing better.

 

[deleted407021]

This is why I find Sanders and Warren pretty appealing, outside of their social platforms. All we need is to make sure that students are held accountable for their actions if we implement this.

What we’re spending now on imperialistic efforts abroad, euphemistically called “foreign policy”, we could instead spend on so many domestic programs.

 

[afib123]

View attachment 260370
The OP was asking about doing the first two years independently, and now it's become a tuition bitchfest. Focus, SDNers.

Well that question is already answered. Most students here agree medical school first 2 years is only needed for clinical experiences and clinically useful lectures not for PBL or lecturing.

Tutiton bitchfest is what's needed at this moment and probably the most important thing in medical education. America will continue to produce amazing physicians because of the rigor in residency and clinical years.

 

[afib123]

It's not only med student who should speak; newly minted physicians and residents should as well. I am already a resident and probably will not benefit from any needed changes...

Attendance was not mandatory at my school for MS2 when I was there (and it was the first time they tried that)... and <5 people usually attended these lectures. So why are we paying 35k+/yr intuition when we can learn these things ourselves? You know what happened! Students who were struggling during MS1 started doing better.

Yup. Pretty much talked on that issue of why we are paying tuition for the first 2 years this entire thread.

I am also almost done with medical school and will not benefit from any of this, but I guess it's a part we can do for the next bunch of medical students since we understand medical education so well and what's needed and what's not needed.

 

[deleted407021]

View attachment 260370
The OP was asking about doing the first two years independently, and now it's become a tuition bitchfest. Focus, SDNers.

@Goro, we love you here on SDN, but please listen to all these motivated, intelligent young professionals when we raise concerns about tuition and how medical education is organized.

 

[Goro]

@Goro, we love you here on SDN, but please listen to all these motivated, intelligent young professionals when we raise concerns about tuition....

Oh, I hear you, but that is a separate thread. This one started out on pedagogy.
One of the harsh and depressing truths about where your tuition money goes (other than clinical education) is into other parts of the university system. Just like a Surgery Dep't may fund Family Medicine, med schools often fund Schools of Art, Education, etc. Imagine how we Faculty feel when some 9/10ths of our students' tuition go off to fund money losing programs that really should have been shut down a long time ago!

If there are any stand-alone med schools out there, they're the only ones who don't have this problem.

 

[deleted407021]

Oh, I hear you, but that is a separate thread. This one started out on pedagogy.
One of the harsh and depressing truths about where your tuition money goes (other than clinical education) is into other parts of the university system. Just like a Surgery Dep't may fund Family Medicine, med schools often fund Schools of Art, Education, etc. Imagine how we Faculty feel when some 9/10ths of our students' tuition go off to fund money losing programs that really should have been shut down a long time ago!

If there are any stand-alone med schools out there, they're the only ones who don't have this problem.

Shutting down arts and humanities programs is dystopian af

 

[Med Ed]

Shutting down arts and humanities programs is dystopian af

Have you looked around lately?