Excellent idea!
I was thinking more like just the pre reqs for med school followed by a longer med school that spent more time on training us for practice. That way we’d be prepared to be generalists straight out of med school like they are in other countries but still take the same ~8 years.
It's not a waste of time because most pre-meds never go to med school.
For real... if med school was 6 years and you skipped undergrad, you would 100-% produce a whole lot of reallly young socially awkward doctors lol
What's the difference in the long run? Are patients in Europe dying in masses or even just getting suboptimal care because of this? I doubt it. It's really hard to say which way is better. 24 and 26 aren't THAT different.
Cultural differences combined with higher expectations from high school graduates.
There are some weirdos that come out of the BA/MD program that I am familiar with, but this is just anecdotal. There is gonna be some weirdos regardless, But my real point is that I think there is a lot to be gained developmentally from a traditional 4 year college experience that would be missed in a 6 year medical program. Personally, I matured tremendously and met my social circle during undergrad. I wouldn’t have if I was studying medicine instead.I do not think the rest of the world would agree with you that 100% of their doctors is socially awkward. (The fact is that their doctors are fine).
By what you are saying, there would be no socially akward doctor produced by the current system. Also, the doctors from the time that med schools required only 60-90 college credits for admission would be all socially awkward. Or the doctors who graduated from 6 year accelerated BA/MD programs here in the U.S. would be 100% weirdos
It’s more like the difference between 24 and 28 tbh. It’s not very common, at least at my school, to be graduating at 26.
You can make freinds and be mature in medical school. But in my opinion, the normal college experience is not attainable studying 8 hours a day, like we do in medical school.
I liked some of the fluff classes. Really enjoyed random stuff like mythology for example. If tuition was free then hey, why not I guess? But I’m footing the bill. Most of us probably spent 10-20k on becoming more “well-rounded” which is silly in and of itself since we’re also supposed to pad our CV’s with tons of crap showing interest in being a doctor. The fact that we all waste A LOT of money on unrelated classes for the purposes of being older by the time we graduate literally means it’s a waste of time.
I feel like I have to say this every month (for this type of thread and those wanting to shorten med school), but it seems like the easy fix is to do something about tuition rather than overhaul a system that we've used for decades with proven results.
Yup. These are practical ways to reduce tuition. But unfortunately the opposite is happening in real life. Every few years my school announces tuition hikes. Ridiculous.
Didnt go to a single anatomy lab last year. Cadaver dissection is a waste of time lol
Agreed in general, hence my username+avatar. We took a similar path with regards to school. That said, I don't think it has to happen in a university classroom these days. In fact, it probably should not. The internet is a great way to learn about the arts, doesn't cost much, and can be done at your own pace. I also believe that this type of stuff is what makes a physician a physician. Histology can be a drag but it's also another thing on the list that justifies our salaries and places in society over a fly-by-night midlevel. Look at the famous historical physicians and tell me that's not the type of person you want to be.
This^
Dude lol dont get me started on required OMM labs. Skipped like 80% of them and almost got murked for it even though I was doing very well on the exams/practicals. Great strategy if you want to spend your time wisely and your school and the entire OMM faculty to hate you in the process-i would never do it again. To any premeds and rising M1s do NOT do this lmao
www.kevinmd.com
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
One of the biggest lies of mid-level propaganda revolves around this topic. No one goes to undesirable places because they suck. Hence the description. Being a nurse doesn't suddenly make you want to go there but a fake PR moral crusade by NPs would have you believe that they do while they all actually go work for the suburban surgical specialty offices and derm lol.yup, the power of the internet.
speaking about midlevel practitioners , I remember reading that one of the main reasons for them is the scarcity of doctors in rural areas and poor neighborhoods.
But I am thinking, are they not suffering from the same maldistribution (i.e., concentrating in affluent metro area) problem like physicians? If they do, producing more of those midlevel practitioners to try to solve the problem of doctor shortage is probably not the way to go.
Maybe the right solution to the doctor shortage problem is just to produce / import more doctors and increase the incentives and recruiting efforts to the needed area instead???
anyway, I did not think much of the term "midlevel" (as even the WHO uses that term, Mid-Level health workers) until I read these,
Stop calling nurse practitioners mid-level providers
The term "mid-level provider” is primarily aimed at nurse practitioners (NPs). It is insulting to health professionals as well as to the patients they serve.
'Mid-Level' and Primary Care 'Providers': Nomenclature That Stings
Although no discipline wants to lose their identity to a categorical term, let's work together to reach consensus on respectful, clear, and inclusive language that captures the unique contributions of each member of the health care team.www.huffpost.com
Advanced Practitioners Are Not Mid-Level Providers
in the real world, I do not think that I would need my plumber or electrician or car mechanic or even doctor to cite a poem or talk politics or philosophy or literature. I prefer just having my problems fixed, now (and if possible, inexpensive). But I only can speak for myself of course
Its the same trash that DO schools use to expand. Ironically, I recall reading somewhere on here that theres more DOs going into underserved/rural areas than NPs.yup, the power of the internet.
speaking about midlevel practitioners , I remember reading that one of the main reasons for them is the scarcity of doctors in rural areas and poor neighborhoods.
But I am thinking, are they not suffering from the same maldistribution (i.e., concentrating in affluent metro area) problem like physicians? If they do, producing more of those midlevel practitioners to try to solve the problem of doctor shortage is probably not the way to go.
Maybe the right solution to the doctor shortage problem is just to produce / import more doctors and increase the incentives and recruiting efforts to the needed area instead???
anyway, I did not think much of the term "midlevel" (as even the WHO uses that term, Mid-Level health workers) until I read these,
Stop calling nurse practitioners mid-level providers
The term "mid-level provider” is primarily aimed at nurse practitioners (NPs). It is insulting to health professionals as well as to the patients they serve.
'Mid-Level' and Primary Care 'Providers': Nomenclature That Stings
Although no discipline wants to lose their identity to a categorical term, let's work together to reach consensus on respectful, clear, and inclusive language that captures the unique contributions of each member of the health care team.
Advanced Practitioners Are Not Mid-Level Providers
in the real world, I do not think that I would need my plumber or electrician or car mechanic or even doctor to cite a poem or talk politics or philosophy or literature. I prefer just having my problems fixed, now (and if possible, inexpensive). But I only can speak for myself of course
Briefly, I believe this works in other countries because there is a greater emphasis on pride in education and culture in general. We agree that it definitely doesn't need to happen in an expensive BS college classroom. It needs to happen at home with family. For example, kids are told from a young age "be good at sports and don't worry about this or that" then they unsurprisingly fail to become a professional athlete but have neglected other aspects of their lives because they just knew they were going to make it (lol). We have a lot of versions of that same theme.Appreciate you for great discussion! I sometimes got sucked into sarcasm and other things so sorry for that last point there.
I understand what you are saying there. But I am just saying that when the rest of the world is doing fine with minimal requirement, we have to ask ourselves that if we do this efficiently? Most of the liberal art requirement of a bachelor's degree could be done for ~ 60-90 credits, the rest of the degree is just classes to fill for the major's requirement.
And so, like someone said above, why stopping at bachelor's degree? Why not master? PhD? I do not see the U.S. MDs of old time or 6 year MD/BA programs having problems with maturity or "well-roundedness". I think those kinds of problems are more personal than having anything to do with not having a bachelor.
Like someone also said above, paying undergrad institutions tons of money does not necessarily translate one into being more mature or "well-rounded". I think they are just taking more classes and spending more time in college. And what does that really do if not making more money for schools?
Enriching oneself is a life long journey. Smart people will do that anyway regardless and even earlier than most people. One does not need to go to school for all that. Like you said, use the internet or something. IMHO, you can do that on your own while studying medicine too
Let's keep thread on topic, eh?yup, the power of the internet.
speaking about midlevel practitioners , I remember reading that one of the main reasons for them is the scarcity of doctors in rural areas and poor neighborhoods.
But I am thinking, are they not suffering from the same maldistribution (i.e., concentrating in affluent metro area) problem like physicians? If they do, producing more of those midlevel practitioners to try to solve the problem of doctor shortage is probably not the way to go.
Maybe the right solution to the doctor shortage problem is just to produce / import more doctors and increase the incentives and recruiting efforts to the needed area instead???
anyway, I did not think much of the term "midlevel" (as even the WHO uses that term, Mid-Level health workers) until I read these,
Stop calling nurse practitioners mid-level providers
The term "mid-level provider” is primarily aimed at nurse practitioners (NPs). It is insulting to health professionals as well as to the patients they serve.
'Mid-Level' and Primary Care 'Providers': Nomenclature That Stings
Although no discipline wants to lose their identity to a categorical term, let's work together to reach consensus on respectful, clear, and inclusive language that captures the unique contributions of each member of the health care team.
Advanced Practitioners Are Not Mid-Level Providers
in the real world, I do not think that I would need my plumber or electrician or car mechanic or even doctor to cite a poem or talk politics or philosophy or literature. I prefer just having my problems fixed, now (and if possible, inexpensive). But I only can speak for myself of course
Undergraduate tuition for most people at in their instate state supported undergraduate school is about $10,000 per year. Throw in room & board etc. and you're talking about $17,000 per year. That's chump change compared to the cost of medical school for most people.
