The SDN Effect?

[Bored Snorlax]

We need the USMLE. It’s like saying that DPMs can roll with the MDs/DOs, which would increase patient trust and expand our scope of practice. I like the DOs system, where it's optional for DOs to take the USMLE since they have the COMLEX. The issue in podiatry, esp with schools on the west coast, is that some are still accredited despite low board pass rates (*cough* improve exam integrity). I believe many students are capable of passing the USMLE. We just need to give it a shot.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

Yeah, the USMLE by podiatry students would be a disaster. That has been covered 100x over.

Most of the ppl who get into MD or DO school are just insanely smart folks. Their boards are actually not too hard (for them). They are just uber-smart ppl... who are usually also hardworking and good with time management.

Some of the honors grads from podiatry schools probably could have been fringe acceptances and bottom of the class in DO school (FP, Peds, Psych type residency match). They'd still be borderline to pass USMLE... much less score well on it. That USMLE for all DPM students idea was a trap all along.

...We should honestly be happy if we can get our podiatry residencies more standardized (case volume, competency) and produce grads who can nearly all pass our real board (ABFAS). That will only happen with less students, better apps, good schooling, and MUCH better average residency training and academics for DPMs. Right now, there is tremendous variance in DPM grads.. because schools take anyone and we have nowhere near enough solid residency spots. Accepting any and every applicant and keeping every crummy residency open will keep it that way, and that's what the new schools force.

This came up at ACFAS this year on a panel. Orthos have an absolute ton of reps with bone surgery, instruments, dissections, fixations, implants, med mgmt of trauma and very sick patients (even before they do a fellowship). Their boards - both USMLE and specialty - are hard AF. The end (orthopedist) product from their training is way less variable than podiatry, with DPM ever-evolving boards and highly variable residencies... now tremendously variable fellowships.

Who at ACFAS was talking about this?

 

[Feli]

Who at ACFAS was talking about this?

It was the panel with on pg28 here... Hyer Clements Chang Grossman and RAnderson MMyerson HDavis etc:

https://www.acfas.org/ACFAS/media/PDF/ACFAS-2024-Program.pdf

It was a neat panel... definite food for thought. It kinda makes you realize how far our post-grad training needs to come. We DPMs have some rockstars and some real embarrassments. But hey, let's open some new pod schools.

 

[MoostashPod]

We need the USMLE. It’s like saying that DPMs can roll with the MDs/DOs, which would increase patient trust and expand our scope of practice. I like the DOs system, where it's optional for DOs to take the USMLE since they have the COMLEX. The issue in podiatry, esp with schools on the west coast, is that some are still accredited despite low board pass rates (*cough* improve exam integrity). I believe many students are capable of passing the USMLE. We just need to give it a shot.

This would be suggesting it's optional for DPMs to take the USMLE since we have the APMLE. In this case, we all know what most DPMs will do already. That is, to take the lesser of the two. It will not be for rolling with the MDs and DOs. Nor would it increase patient trust or expand our scope of practice. Podiatry recognition is not in the USMLE as our education/degree and training is not the same as MDs and DOs.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

It was the panel with on pg28 here... Hyer Clements Chang Grossman and RAnderson MMyerson HDavis etc:

https://www.acfas.org/ACFAS/media/PDF/ACFAS-2024-Program.pdf

It was a neat panel... definite food for thought. It kinda makes you realize how far our post-grad training needs to come. We DPMs have some rockstars and some real embarrassments. But hey, let's open some new pod schools.

DPMs say all the right things but they don't follow their word. They do whatever benefits them. Creating a fellowship is self fulfilling for them and their lifestyle. This is a problem that is pervasive once you leave school and enter residency, fellowship, private practice. Sometimes even in hospital employed positions if there is one podiatrist on staff and they hire another you will the first podiatrist cherry picking pathology. It's in our DNA to do whatever it takes to get ahead because there are SO MANY of us.

 

[Hybrocure]

MDs and DOs don’t even know we take the MCAT, let alone the average person. Let’s start there. So taking MD/DO boards will do literally nothing to change public perception.

Podiatrist will always be a podiatrist. And that’s not anything to be ashamed of. Own up to what we are and do it to the best of your ability.

 

[I Drink Riesling]

We need the USMLE. It’s like saying that DPMs can roll with the MDs/DOs, which would increase patient trust and expand our scope of practice. I like the DOs system, where it's optional for DOs to take the USMLE since they have the COMLEX. The issue in podiatry, esp with schools on the west coast, is that some are still accredited despite low board pass rates (*cough* improve exam integrity). I believe many students are capable of passing the USMLE. We just need to give it a shot.

I understand your sentiment, but our curriculum was not designed to take the USMLE. A long time ago, there was a study attempting to evaluate the relationship between MCAT and USMLE pass rate. They found that people who scored at least a 500 (50th percentile) had an 80% chance of passing Step 1. Less than half of podiatry school applicants score that. Revamping the curriculum to include real medicine and its subspecialties for Step 2 would not be useful to third years who should be getting proficient in the podiatry clinic for their externships a year later. It’s just a beast of an exam that requires a very standardized curriculum, which MD schools execute beautifully. I wish the same could be said about our schools, but that’s where we are at right now. If we want to gain more trust from patients, we need to practice good medicine. We practice good medicine by making stronger residency programs and standardize their training as much as possible, not switch to the USMLE.

 

[Feli]

...I believe many students are capable of passing the USMLE. We just need to give it a shot.

 

[bloxxeeey]

I understand your sentiment, but our curriculum was not designed to take the USMLE. A long time ago, there was a study attempting to evaluate the relationship between MCAT and USMLE pass rate. They found that people who scored at least a 500 (50th percentile) had an 80% chance of passing Step 1. Less than half of podiatry school applicants score that. Revamping the curriculum to include real medicine and its subspecialties for Step 2 would not be useful to third years who should be getting proficient in the podiatry clinic for their externships a year later. It’s just a beast of an exam that requires a very standardized curriculum, which MD schools execute beautifully. I wish the same could be said about our schools, but that’s where we are at right now. If we want to gain more trust from patients, we need to practice good medicine. We practice good medicine by making stronger residency programs and standardize their training as much as possible, not switch to the USMLE.

I think knowing the details of the reproductive system will assist me in treating subtalar joint arthritis.

We should be like dentist. Know our lane and focus on it, execute it well.

 

[MicroPod]

All the medical students I know were dedicating time to study for USMLE separately from their other classes as soon as they started med school. This was back before it was pass/fail of course so this may have changed now. I don’t think we should take USMLE, but if pod students treated it the same as med students did I think they would have a better chance passing it.

 

[ReaganomicsLamborghini]

I think knowing the details of the reproductive system will assist me in treating subtalar joint arthritis.

We should be like dentist. Know our lane and focus on it, execute it well.

I don’t know why some people can’t just accept podiatry for what it is. You never got into medical school, get over it. You will not be able to turn podiatry into something it’s not.

 

[HardRoadPaved]

I usually have to leave the doctors lounge at the hospital when the MD/DO start talking about their USMLE scores. It really hit me today in clinic when my preop consult patient asked me how I did on step 1. They decided to see a MD/DO for their bunion when I said thats only for medical school.

 

[Hybrocure]

I usually have to leave the doctors lounge at the hospital when the MD/DO start talking about their USMLE scores. It really hit me today in clinic when my preop consult patient asked me how I did on step 1. They decided to see a MD/DO for their bunion when I said thats only for medical school.

Great post . Nobody cares about that stuff. The reality is you sit there in the doctors lounge eating a bag of Doritos that you still can’t believe is free while some news with stocks scroll along the bottom on the lounge TV and the real doctors chat about investments while you sit there thinking I still gotta pay these loans

 

[iridocyclitiss]

we can't even pass part i of the APMLE how can we pass an exam that doesn't have first order questions

 

[heybrother]

I usually have to leave the doctors lounge at the hospital when the MD/DO start talking about their USMLE scores. It really hit me today in clinic when my preop consult patient asked me how I did on step 1. They decided to see a MD/DO for their bunion when I said thats only for medical school.

USMLE Part 1 has some really challenging questions on IM correction. The orthopedists in my town do 1st MPJ fusion on everyone and everything and if I ever needed my little bunion fixed I'd probably choose one of them just to be safe. They went to medical school after all.

 

[msion]

Who else is studying for HVAC or other trades? Just me?

Anyway, we have this associate who thinks he's the foot and ankle guy in town. Finally got his first ankle ORIF and showed his x-rays to me. I just asked him if the patient had him trim his toenails during the post-op visit. And... yes.

I have long accepted what podiatry is and therefore I limit my sweet practice to just that. Derm, injections or bunions. I don't join any local orgs or pay any dues except for boards and licenses. Every APMA/ACFAS email directly goes to trash. No dinners with reps or hospital calls that will take time away from studying for my HVAC license.

I am just being me. Do my podiatry thing now so that I don't have to do it again.

 

[Hybrocure]

Who else is studying for HVAC or other trades? Just me?

Anyway, we have this associate who thinks he's the foot and ankle guy in town. Finally got his first ankle ORIF and showed his x-rays to me. I just asked him if the patient had him trim his toenails during the post-op visit. And... yes.

I have long accepted what podiatry is and therefore I limit my sweet practice to just that. Derm, injections or bunions. I don't join any local orgs or pay any dues except for boards and licenses. Every APMA/ACFAS email directly goes to trash. No dinners with reps or hospital calls that will take time away from studying for my HVAC license.

I am just being me. Do my podiatry thing now so that I don't have to do it again.

I’d stick with non op podiatry in your case. You can make more than HVAC and not ruin your body before 50. Many of the most profitable podiatrists are non op or minimal op they just know how to run a practice. Most of our money as a profession is made in clinic rather than the OR after all as far as private practice goes.

Despite what ACFAS and hospital employed foot and ankle surgeons push here the reality is that still the majority of MDs and DOs just want us to handle foot stuff that ortho doesn’t do. And MDs and DOs are the main referral sources in a private practice setting.

 

[dtrack22]

I’d stick with non op podiatry in your case. You can make more than HVAC and not ruin your body before 50. Many of the most profitable podiatrists are non op or minimal op they just know how to run a practice. Most of our money as a profession is made in clinic rather than the OR after all as far as private practice goes.

Despite what ACFAS and hospital employed foot and ankle surgeons push here the reality is that still the majority of MDs and DOs just want us to handle foot stuff that ortho doesn’t do. And MDs and DOs are the main referral sources in a private practice setting.

Yup. It’s a job. Do the easy stuff, make a few hundred grand a year. Work 4 or 4.5 days a week. Don’t take call. Enjoy life. You’ll make enough money to have a more comfortable life than a vast majority of people in this country. It will be no more/less fulfilling than any other trade or career you might decide to pursue instead. So suck it up and just do the thing you spent way too much time and money learning to do. Most of the stressful parts of the job can be removed…as long as you can check any ego at the door

 

[PTPuser]

Who else is studying for HVAC or other trades? Just me?

Anyway, we have this associate who thinks he's the foot and ankle guy in town. Finally got his first ankle ORIF and showed his x-rays to me. I just asked him if the patient had him trim his toenails during the post-op visit. And... yes.

I have long accepted what podiatry is and therefore I limit my sweet practice to just that. Derm, injections or bunions. I don't join any local orgs or pay any dues except for boards and licenses. Every APMA/ACFAS email directly goes to trash. No dinners with reps or hospital calls that will take time away from studying for my HVAC license.

I am just being me. Do my podiatry thing now so that I don't have to do it again.

Have some down time before the start of residency and have been doing under the table stuff. Made 2K yesterday doing ductless system cleaning, hot water tank exchange and 2 chimney cleaning.

 

[msion]

Have some down time before the start of residency and have been doing under the table stuff. Made 2K yesterday doing ductless system cleaning, hot water tank exchange and 2 chimney cleaning.

What's the global period on these procedures? Do you have to take a 50% cut in reimbursement for the other chimney?

 

[air bud]

The truth is MDs and DOs don’t want us to be managing inpatients medically and honestly…we don’t want to be managing them medically for inpatients either. Or else we would’ve just got the MD or DO degree.

Imagine how hard it is fighting ortho imagine fighting hospitalists?

Yeah they can keep their boards. I’ll keep my sleep.

Well according to some people around here podiatrist should be medically managing their own patients especially the diabetic ones after amputations at lim salvage programs....

 

[PTPuser]

What's the global period on these procedures? Do you have to take a 50% cut in reimbursement for the other chimney?

Lol chimney / gas furnace vacuuming is a $400 dollar job here for 1 hr of work. But I wasn't charging people that cause that's just nuts and these were elderly kind folks so I did it for $250.

 

[mandrew]

Definitely... some were at those marks even 10 years ago (even higher if undergrad loans).
The costs (tuitions and fees) go up every year, and the rate of student loan interest has jumped way up in the last couple of years.

• Pod school rate is $30k/yr tuition (it is more than that at almost every pod school, but say maybe $30k/y with scholarship) = 120k (assumes 4yr graduation... far from a given at many schools)
• $20-40k living per year (housing/food/phone... plus board exams, supplies, books, travel, instruments, all kinds of ticky-tack fees, etc etc etc etc). And when we are being real, most students will borrow at or near max that they are allowed.

Assuming 60k/yr (30k tuition + 30k living), you are at over $250k by graduation. That'd be a very VERY low end figure. Then, interest, now about 7%, compounds during residency (some would as student also). Do not forget about the many people who borrow max and the many who take 5 or even 6+ years to graduate pod school.

...Even the schools themselves, which will round down on everything and try to minimize costs shown, show the high prices on their websites. UT is by far the lowest podiatry tuition and cheap to live as its location is undesirable as can be, and they still estimate well over $45k/yr just for the classroom years (goes way up in clinical/travel/interview years, as we all know). Western Pod estimates over $77k - just for first year... not bad little rake for a school that caused the last podiatry residency shortage.

$30,000 year sounds pretty low, it was over $20,000 twenty years ago.

 

[Forcewielder]

$30,000 year sounds pretty low, it was over $20,000 twenty years ago.

That is low. Scholl lists their tuition and fees at 186k for the 4yrs. They often give a small scholarship (they're advertising a 100k one so maybe their desperation is helping bring the costs down). But just using their base of 186k along with the most basic cost of living of 30k/yr? That'd put you over 300k. That includes no interest or fees on the loans. Plus most will take out more than 2500/month to live off.

 

[bloxxeeey]

Kent State dropped their tuition from 45k to 32k. But don't worry cost of living made up the extra 13k.
Anyways, you need a car and the average US car payment is a little over 720$ a month. But you're a student so let's say 500$ a month but you drive a **** ton there (at least I did 3 years ago) so 200 for gas let's put it at 700$ a month. 8400$ a year so now we're at 40.4k.
The cheapest apartment that the school recommends us rent currently costs 920$ a month, with utilities (gas, electric, internet, water) let's put it to 1050$ a month so 12600$ a year. Now we're at 53000 a year.
So we have to eat. Let's say 100$ a week (including take-out) this is likely on the very low end considering how busy you are in school and eating out is more frequent and certainly more expensive. So that's 5200$ per year. Now we're at 58200$.

So 58200$ x 4 = 232800$ at the bare minimum.
But don't forget you need to pay for a life outside of school, pay for car repairs, pay for externship travel (that can cost a **** to, since you're likely paying rent at two places, gas to travel etc).
Oh and don't forget almighty interest.
year 1: 58200 (at 7% interest) is 4074$ = 62274
year 2: 62274 + 58200 + interest = 120474
year 3: 120474 +58200 + interest =191181
year 4: 191181 + 58200 + interest = 266837

Then consider for 3 years your in residency just paying the bare minimum. It'll be over 326k. The interest on that alone is 23k a year at this point. And you're 120k associate job after taxes is 90k, which after 23k in just interest (no principal payments) puts you down to 67k which is actually about what most residents are making.

But here's the fun part of all that math I just did, that's the bare minimum. You better be living cheap AF through those 7 years. Oh and I guess likely attending hood if you want to make any dent in those loans.

 

[Robin-jay]

Kent State dropped their tuition from 45k to 32k. But don't worry cost of living made up the extra 13k.
Anyways, you need a car and the average US car payment is a little over 720$ a month. But you're a student so let's say 500$ a month but you drive a **** ton there (at least I did 3 years ago) so 200 for gas let's put it at 700$ a month. 8400$ a year so now we're at 40.4k.
The cheapest apartment that the school recommends us rent currently costs 920$ a month, with utilities (gas, electric, internet, water) let's put it to 1050$ a month so 12600$ a year. Now we're at 53000 a year.
So we have to eat. Let's say 100$ a week (including take-out) this is likely on the very low end considering how busy you are in school and eating out is more frequent and certainly more expensive. So that's 5200$ per year. Now we're at 58200$.

So 58200$ x 4 = 232800$ at the bare minimum.
But don't forget you need to pay for a life outside of school, pay for car repairs, pay for externship travel (that can cost a **** to, since you're likely paying rent at two places, gas to travel etc).
Oh and don't forget almighty interest.
year 1: 58200 (at 7% interest) is 4074$ = 62274
year 2: 62274 + 58200 + interest = 120474
year 3: 120474 +58200 + interest =191181
year 4: 191181 + 58200 + interest = 266837

Then consider for 3 years your in residency just paying the bare minimum. It'll be over 326k. The interest on that alone is 23k a year at this point. And you're 120k associate job after taxes is 90k, which after 23k in just interest (no principal payments) puts you down to 67k which is actually about what most residents are making.

But here's the fun part of all that math I just did, that's the bare minimum. You better be living cheap AF through those 7 years. Oh and I guess likely attending hood if you want to make any dent in those loans.

Can't you just do IBR plan of SAVE during your residency years?

You pay like 30 dollars a month and then the government pays the rest of your interest off that month. You don't accrue anything.

 

[shadesofgrey]

Can't you just do IBR plan of SAVE during your residency years?

You pay like 30 dollars a month and then the government pays the rest of your interest off that month. You don't accrue anything.

That interest not accruing is life changing. Wish this would have been available to me, by the time I was able to afford a payment that was more than the interest, nearly 100k added in interest. Having said that, I still think pod is a poor career choice that should largely be avoided, but that horse has been beaten repeatedly...

 

[PTPuser]

Kent's tuition is only 32K for ISS but 42K for OOS.

 

[Feli]

Kent State dropped their tuition from 45k to 32k. ...

Kent's tuition is only 32K for ISS but 42K for OOS.

This is a great sign. At least they are essentially admitting the saturation and ROI needs to be addressed. Even if it's to save their own skin (keep the pod school profitable), this is a good thing.

Their app pool for Ohio was dropping even in recent years with AZ and Western opening, and now, they will be steamrolled by additions of LECOM Pod nearby and UTRio being cheaper also.

The tough part is that KSU Pod students won't get loans forgiven if KSUCPM closes down (as KSU overall stays open). They'll still need to pay the loans off - traditionally or with PSLF or 20 or 25yr discharge.

 

[med2345]

This is a great sign. At least they are essentially admitting the saturation and ROI needs to be addressed. Even if it's to save their own skin (keep the pod school profitable), this is a good thing.

Their app pool for Ohio was dropping even in recent years with AZ and Western opening, and now, they will be steamrolled by additions of LECOM Pod nearby and UTRio being cheaper also.

The tough part is that KSU Pod students won't get loans forgiven if KSUCPM closes down (as KSU overall stays open). They'll still need to pay the loans off - traditionally or with PSLF or 20 or 25yr discharge.

Is there an actually possibility they would actually close?

 

[Feli]

Is there an actually possibility they would actually close?

Absolutely.
I'd think KSU Pod would be the first pod school to close if "admission crisis" (aka bad overall ROI and job demand for podiatry) continues. These pod schools being integrated is good, but the university system didn't absorb them to lose money.

Kent / OCPM has been relatively weak among pod schools for a long time (lower end board pass rates, not great match results, unpopular city).
You have many other schools nearby (DMU, Scholl, Temple... now LECOM very close).
You have almost any other school with better location (Calif schools, Barry), better tuition (UTRGV) or better match/boards results (DMU, AZ).

Look at what has happened in pharmacy: saturation lowered incomes, tuition kept rising and they kept opening new schools, ROI got terrible, "admissions crisis," they froze new schools, others closed.

...what other podiatry school would you think might be first to shut down?
Maybe CCPM due to being expensive and low board pass % rates? They will get more apps than KSUSPM simply due to being in a good location and less pod schools near them, though. NY is obviously not a great pod school nowadays, but there is just no other in that general area. I would say KSUSPM is on the thinnest ice and would be first to crump if apps for pod schools stay down.

 

[Forcewielder]

Can't you just do IBR plan of SAVE during your residency years?

You pay like 30 dollars a month and then the government pays the rest of your interest off that month. You don't accrue anything.

Yeah, that's a game changer. I'd have saved a ton with that. Fortunately, I have saved quite a bit with the scamdemic loan pause and now the extension of not having to recertify my income.

 

[footshazam]

Absolutely.
I'd think KSU Pod would be the first pod school to close if "admission crisis" (aka bad overall ROI and job demand for podiatry) continues. These pod schools being integrated is good, but the university system didn't absorb them to lose money.

Kent / OCPM has been relatively weak among pod schools for a long time (lower end board pass rates, not great match results, unpopular city).
You have many other schools nearby (DMU, Scholl, Temple... now LECOM very close).
You have almost any other school with better location (Calif schools, Barry), better tuition (UTRGV) or better match/boards results (DMU, AZ).

Look at what has happened in pharmacy: saturation lowered incomes, tuition kept rising and they kept opening new schools, ROI got terrible, "admissions crisis," they froze new schools, others closed.

...what other podiatry school would you think might be first to shut down?
Maybe CCPM due to being expensive and low board pass % rates? They will get more apps than KSUSPM simply due to being in a good location and less pod schools near them, though. NY is obviously not a great pod school nowadays, but there is just no other in that general area. I would say KSUSPM is on the thinnest ice and would be first to crump if apps for pod schools stay down.

Someone mentioned on PM News that they heard Temple told the podiatry school that soon they would need to be on their own. I mentioned that in another thread but nobody said anything…

 

[Feli]

Someone mentioned on PM News that they heard Temple told the podiatry school that soon they would need to be on their own. I mentioned that in another thread but nobody said anything…

Yep, you will see pressure on most of the pod programs soon. It is already hitting KSUSPM as they lowered tuition in the face of inflation.

If they don't make dollars, they don't make sense to the sponsor universities. This was the Temple podiatry post.

That is where the wacky marketing, dean chat, lowering tuition, various social media reaches, etc come in... try to get more apps.

Most pod schools will soon be faced with a rough multiple choice:
a) deal with lower apps and enrollment (less $)
b) offer lower tuition and/or more scholarships and/or more marketing budget (less $)
c) lower the pay of faculty or labs or etc (lower quality)
d) take lower quality apps (lower board pass % rate, lower quality)

 

[podoloco]

Yep, you will see pressure on most of the pod programs soon. It is already hitting KSUSPM as they lowered tuition in the face of inflation.

If they don't make dollars, they don't make sense to the sponsor universities. This was the Temple podiatry post.

That is where the wacky marketing, dean chat, lowering tuition, various social media reaches, etc come in... try to get more apps.

Most pod schools will soon be faced with a rough multiple choice:
a) deal with lower apps and enrollment (less $)
b) offer lower tuition and/or more scholarships and/or more marketing budget (less $)
c) lower the pay of faculty or labs or etc (lower quality)
d) take lower quality apps (lower board pass % rate, lower quality)

KSU received funding from the state to lower the in-state tuition. It passed end of last year.

 

[Feli]

KSU received funding from the state to lower the in-state tuition. It passed end of last year.

Correct... they applied for that state tax money (every public school in every place does this perpetually to rake more revenue and/or to hope for more enrollment due to lowering tuition rates).

However, you don't see any correlation between the fact that Kent St podiatry classes are about half as big as they were ten years ago (pre-AZpod and Western pod expanding) and KSUCPM choosing to discount the podiatry tuition (and heavily publicize it) right now with LECOM and UTRio opening? They also set the in-state KUSCPM pod tuition at less than $1k under UTRGV podiatry's out-of-state rate so they can say their "Podiatric Medicine tuition will be the lowest in the nation for Ohio students."

Pure coincidences in timing and pricing there?

They're trying to retain Ohio applicants - and any others they possibly can - by dropping tuition.
Other pod schools are doing more marketing on social and/or giving more scholarships also.
Podiatry schools have always done rolling admissions and very high acceptance rates.
There is bigtime downward pressure on the podiatry school market right now... bigtime oversupply of seats.

It's a good thing for pre-med students who shadow and truly like podiatry... but even with cheap tuition like UTRGV pod school, the job ROI for the time/money invested is still not too good overall. Applicants see this. KSU pod is a ship taking on water right now, though... and they won't be unique in that regard as "admissions crisis" continues. Just look at pharmacy schools/apps/ROI/jobs 20 or 10 years ago.

 

[footshazam]

Correct... they applied for that state tax money (every public school in every place does this perpetually to rake more revenue and/or to hope for more enrollment due to lowering tuition rates).

However, you don't see any correlation between the fact that Kent St podiatry classes are about half as big as they were ten years ago (pre-AZpod and Western pod expanding) and KSUCPM choosing to discount the podiatry tuition (and heavily publicize it) right now with LECOM and UTRio opening? They also set the in-state KUSCPM pod tuition at less than $1k under UTRGV podiatry's out-of-state rate so they can say their "Podiatric Medicine tuition will be the lowest in the nation for Ohio students."

Pure coincidences in timing and pricing there?

They're trying to retain Ohio applicants - and any others they possibly can - by dropping tuition.
Other pod schools are doing more marketing on social and/or giving more scholarships also.
Podiatry schools have always done rolling admissions and very high acceptance rates.
There is bigtime downward pressure on the podiatry school market right now... bigtime oversupply of seats.

It's a good thing for pre-med students who shadow and truly like podiatry... but even with cheap tuition like UTRGV pod school, the job ROI for the time/money invested is still not too good overall. Applicants see this. KSU pod is a ship taking on water right now, though... and they won't be unique in that regard as "admissions crisis" continues. Just look at pharmacy schools/apps/ROI/jobs 20 or 10 years ago.

Yeah I don’t think they are the only ones dealing with this. All the schools don’t have enough students in seats and that’s a disturbing thing even as a current student. It just kinda makes you think dang what is really going to happen going forward at the schools and in the profession overall as time goes on.

 

[Adam Smasher]

what is really going to happen going forward at the schools and in the profession overall as time goes on.

Good question. Theoretically, in a labor market with an unconstrained supply (like podiatry), if labor decreases, employers should bid up salaries. Which could be good for a student such as yourself! Then, over time, the promise of higher pay would draw new entrants to the podiatry job market which will depress the salaries back down again. All of these changes happen with 7 year lags, so hopefully you're an owner by then and can capitalize on cheap labor, which also would be good for you!

 

[Feli]

Yeah I don’t think they are the only ones dealing with this. All the schools don’t have enough students in seats and that’s a disturbing thing even as a current student. It just kinda makes you think dang what is really going to happen going forward at the schools and in the profession overall as time goes on.

The answer is, and has been, to just ignore the noise and secure the best residency training you can. Create options to find the best pay and job quality you reasonably can, and pay down the loans fast (assuming interest rates stay high, which they will). That is really all you can do.

You can't stop the pod schools from accepting anyone and charging a lot or expanding or opening new schools, can't fix the severe shortage of good DPM residencies, can't fix the job market and low ROI and much competition for podiatry. You just have to play the game to the best of your ability.

The supply/demand of podiatrists doesn't really apply... because tuition goes up up up regardless of if number of grad DPMs goes up or slightly down. That means ROI gets worse and worse. DPM pay going up maybe 20% or 25% in the last couple decades (basically just inflation overall) means little when podiatry debt burden more than doubled. DPM (any doctor) practicing career is 30-35+ years on average. Even if all but a few of the 11 pod schools shut down today, podiatry remains oversaturated for decades... DPMs would remain low paid and low demand by groups/facilities (relative to MDs), and getting offered less by insurance payers for same CPTs that derm or ortho or etc get significantly more for.

...You have to just prep yourself well (get good grades, do good clerkships, secure one of the relatively few good residencies for podiatry), and then network and work hard on finding a good job, getting ABFAS cert, and/or eventually becoming owner. That said, there is a very good chance you will be making $200k-250k or so and doing roughly 2 or 3 surgery cases per week on avg - even if you worked pretty hard. Strive for more, but that's above well above DPM average... and that's likely roughly where you end up as a DPM (still not an ideal ROI with $300k-400k+ debt). Assuming you succeed in the good training and job search part, a big part afterwards is also psychology and budgeting to make that work and simply enjoy what you have in terms of career/job/practice. It can be done.

Essentially, keep a positive mindset. Don't "lose" (by MD standards or someone else's) even if you "win" by statistical podiatry standards and get a $225k VA job, $200k associate DPM job with fair hours, work hard and take call to make $300k as hospital FTE, grind awhile to make $300k+ net as owner solo PP, $500k+ as PP owner with associate docs, etc. Try to just enjoy the process regardless. Find enjoyment in hobbies, family, fitness. Being rich or respected is pointless if you're fat and bald and grumpy. Also, I say it all of the time, but having a financially competent partner helps A LOT as a podiatrist. We simply don't have the cushy hours of CRNAs or the bigtime income of MD surgeons or the low student debt of RNs. You can do well, though.

 

[aiikookie]

Absolutely.
I'd think KSU Pod would be the first pod school to close if "admission crisis" (aka bad overall ROI and job demand for podiatry) continues. These pod schools being integrated is good, but the university system didn't absorb them to lose money.

Kent / OCPM has been relatively weak among pod schools for a long time (lower end board pass rates, not great match results, unpopular city).
You have many other schools nearby (DMU, Scholl, Temple... now LECOM very close).
You have almost any other school with better location (Calif schools, Barry), better tuition (UTRGV) or better match/boards results (DMU, AZ).

Look at what has happened in pharmacy: saturation lowered incomes, tuition kept rising and they kept opening new schools, ROI got terrible, "admissions crisis," they froze new schools, others closed.

...what other podiatry school would you think might be first to shut down?
Maybe CCPM due to being expensive and low board pass % rates? They will get more apps than KSUSPM simply due to being in a good location and less pod schools near them, though. NY is obviously not a great pod school nowadays, but there is just no other in that general area. I would say KSUSPM is on the thinnest ice and would be first to crump if apps for pod schools stay down.

I don’t doubt this as we started with less than half of class capacity and already lost 10+ people due to dropping out after failing courses and this is only in 1st year. We will probably be left with a couple dozen by graduation

 

[Adam Smasher]

I don’t doubt this as we started with less than half of class capacity and already lost 10+ people due to dropping out after failing courses and this is only in 1st year. We will probably be left with a couple dozen by graduation

The first major purge happens around part 1 board exam. Clinicals are less rigorous and the grading is more subjective, but as long as you're not an absolute disaster the schools will push you through like the colon pushes its contents along

 

[heybrother]

I don’t doubt this as we started with less than half of class capacity and already lost 10+ people due to dropping out after failing courses and this is only in 1st year. We will probably be left with a couple dozen by graduation

So - Kent for the class of 2027 - in their starting year (2023-2024) started with ...50ish students and is down to 40?

 

[GreenHousePub]

So - Kent for the class of 2027 - in their starting year (2023-2024) started with ...50ish students and is down to 40?

Not all bad. Plenty for room to stretch out, each student can take 2 desks for extra space, luxury.

 

[med2345]

I don’t doubt this as we started with less than half of class capacity and already lost 10+ people due to dropping out after failing courses and this is only in 1st year. We will probably be left with a couple dozen by graduation

So how big is the current class?

 

[aiikookie]

So - Kent for the class of 2027 - in their starting year (2023-2024) started with ...50ish students and is down to 40?

started with 57 and i believe we are down to ~47, currently we're in the 50's due to 2nd years repeating

 

[MoostashPod]

started with 57 and i believe we are down to ~47, currently we're in the 50's due to 2nd years repeating

The school keeps riding them along for those tuition money. What a wonderful world we live in. Good to see the numbers dropped more than half. I remember hearing the larger classes of 120+.

 

[dtrack22]

The school keeps riding them along for those tuition money. What a wonderful world we live in. Good to see the numbers dropped more than half. I remember hearing the larger classes of 120+.

They were in the 110’s for their first year class when I was in school and they regularly graduated 80 something students. 20%+ attrition rates.

That was also when Kent (OCPM) and Temple would both graduate students who hadn’t passed part I and part II. So they had kids failing those exams and still moving right along in their program. The argument was that the APMLE licensing exams weren’t a part of the actual school curriculum. They students passed all of their courses in Ohio so the school can award them a degree…even though they can’t use the degree without being eligible for licensing…

 

[Robin-jay]

They were in the 110’s for their first year class when I was in school and they regularly graduated 80 something students. 20%+ attrition rates.

That was also when Kent (OCPM) and Temple would both graduate students who hadn’t passed part I and part II. So they had kids failing those exams and still moving right along in their program. The argument was that the APMLE licensing exams weren’t a part of the actual school curriculum. They students passed all of their courses in Ohio so the school can award them a degree…even though they can’t use the degree without being eligible for licensing…

Are you sure KSUCPM and Temple used to graduate students without passing boards part 1?

Part 2 makes sense, but part 1 seems weird.

 

[dtrack22]

Are you sure KSUCPM and Temple used to graduate students without passing boards part 1?

Part 2 makes sense, but part 1 seems weird.

I’m sure I have the old AACPM documents on an old laptop. But yes, there were 2 students at Temple who were 4th year students who had not passed part I. They even talked about it at an APMA HOD meeting.

 

[footshazam]

I’m sure I have the old AACPM documents on an old laptop. But yes, there were 2 students at Temple who were 4th year students who had not passed part I. They even talked about it at an APMA HOD meeting.

Well it’s not just unique to Kent and Temple. At my school which I will not name, there is at least 1 student right now who didn’t take Part 1 when the rest of the class did last year and is still in school about to advance to 4th year. I think it’s very unfair because at this point you don’t even know if this person is competent in the first 2 years of basic sciences but yet you are continuing to let them work in the clinic. I’m sure this wouldn’t be allowed to happen in a MD/DO program. It’s not the same as graduating them without passing but it’s still not cool. You must pass part 1 I think now at all the schools to graduate and for sure to be able to take part 2. Just seems like a bad situation to be in. I’m not sure how you would explain that to residency programs when they notice something is off about when you took the exam. That’s just my 2 cents. Maybe they are just being strung along for tuition dollars. You can’t put anything past podiatry schools at this point.