Terminating residents

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What I'm trying to get is where this requirement of yours, i.e.:



comes from. Is it a law? Some rule of the internet? Can you furnish some link to this requirement? Or is it because of your experience as a web developer that you know this? You know how information validation works, it's not as you say because you say it is so. Your focus is the contract staffers are required to agree upon. My focus is the supposed requirement that such contract be furnished upon request. Claro?
Is this site not part of a non profit organization that takes donations? Normally, transparency is also a requirement to maintain the status. That is only one angle.

And why do you believe a contract stating the parameters for protection of our privacy is not something that could or should be furnished? I know you like the site and all, but a lot of people also like their privacy. Again, I ahve said there are governing bodies and rules, why not look up the regulatory body? THey're regularly in the news, and why not get in touch with some hosting companies? I've already said that to you.

Furthermore, non-profit also creates another situation where transparency has to be maintained.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Glad that someone went back to something relating to the original topic of this post. A lot of med students on here probably don't know anything about the six core competencies. I guess it is laudable that the ACGME is trying to create some sort of structure for resident evaluations. On the other hand, having read the six core competencies multiple times, and been asked to evaluation others on these six "categories" as a member of the house staff, I have to say that these competency criteria are sufficiently vague that they end up being mostly subjective. People end up just checking the little boxes, giving higher scores to people who seem smarter and nicer and/or get along with them better, and lower if they don't like the person or the person seems blatantly dense or incompetent. I'm not sure that trying to define six core competencies gets us any closer to making the best physicians/products coming out of residency.

Yeah, I agree - it is a difficult issue because the major reasons why people become poor attending physicians seem to be personality or attitude related - not knowledge based or even rational problem solving (which is what tests look at). But unfortunately it is next to impossible to evaluate this objectively. I am not sure what a better answer to the problem would be.
 
Is this site not part of a non profit organization that takes donations? Normally, transparency is also a requirement to maintain the status. That is only one angle.

And why do you believe a contract stating the parameters for protection of our privacy is not something that could or should be furnished? I know you like the site and all, but a lot of people also like their privacy. Again, I ahve said there are governing bodies and rules, why not look up the regulatory body? THey're regularly in the news, and why not get in touch with some hosting companies? I've already said that to you.

Furthermore, non-profit also creates another situation where transparency has to be maintained.

It's your position that such privacy documents *must* be furnished upon request. I'm asking for the proof that such a requirement exists. If you say that such documents must be furnished, kindly back up that statement with proof. Don't backpeddle or make *me* prove your point, prove it yourself. Is this a rule, a guideline, or force of law? Throw up a link that states such a requirement exists besides in your mind. Certainly if this is something universally required at all hosting companies, or no-profits you could come up with a link to those requirements. Obviously after multiple requests you cannot, so I doubt what you say is true.

Sorry for the thread drift. I'm done with it. Though I'll end it with a request that web developer dude back his statements. I doubt he will.
 
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Hello. I've been following this thread since January. I never posted anything before because I was hoping I wouldn't get terminated, but last week I got the awful news. Here's my story.

I am Caribbean grad recently terminated two weeks ago before completing my PGY-1 year in IM. In January I was called into the program director's office where he mentioned that he was concerned that I was staying late and my clinical judgement poor. He felt that I was not ready to progress to my PGY-2 year and wanted me to repeat my PGY-1 year. I guess he saw my anxiety and reassured me that I would have a job next year. After discussing this with him, I agreed that I had these deficiencies and thought repeating the year would be beneficial. He also mentioned that I would be continued to be monitored by the faculty and depending on their recommendation I would be promoted or not. Again he mentioned that I would have a job for next year. The program director then decided to leave the program after he was offered to be the program director of a new IM program. So our chief of medicine became the interm program director.

After that meeting, I worked as hard as I could. Asking attendings if they saw any deficiencies and making any necessary changes. I tried working faster and read more. I spoke to my residents to see if I could make any changes.

In February, I met with the chief of medicine/interm program director and he handed me a letter listing my deficiencies. The letter ended with a statement stating that if I failed to correct these deficiencies, I would be terminated from the program. I was very confused because I thought that my job secured and the question was there I would be promoted with my class or not.

I was very confused and frustrated. I was making the appropriate corrections. I was not staying as late and working more efficiently. I knew that I still had alot to improve, but I guess it wasn't enough. I spoke to a resident that I knew and worked with and he mentioned that other residents felt I was a hard worker and professional and that if asked by the program, the residents would support me. The attending who I worked with for 1 week, felt that during that time, he did not get a sense that my medical knowledge was severely lacking.

So I continued to work harder, coming in early and trying to get feedback from residents and attendings. I attempted to make as many corrections to deficiencies that I could.

Finaly two weeks ago, I was to meet with the interm program director for my annual review. I got a sense something was wrong when the GME director was also present at the meeting. That was when he handed me the letter of termination. I told him that the prior program director told me that my position was secured and likely I would be repeating my PGY-1 year. Then I asked him what changed, he mentioned that the faculty felt my clinical judgement was poor and that I was not working efficiently. I guess I should also mention that during this time, none of my patients were ever harmed by my actions. I got along well with private attendings and specialized attendings.

I was not angry or shocked when this happened. I guess I had a sense this was coming. When I first met the interm program director in Febrary and got the probation letter, the letter mentioned so many deficiencies that I felt that the program was looking to terminate me and now they were looking for evidence to support termination. What did upset me was that after I got the termination letter, the program wanted me to leave the hospital as quickly as possible. The GME director immediately took my pager and ID, went with me to the resident's lounge to help with cleaning my locker. When I asked her if I could speak to the chief residents to discuss this and what I should do next, she just mentioned that being terminated was a lot to take in and I should go home and think. If I wish to call the chiefs I could do it later. I told her I would really like to speak to the chiefs, she stated "with all due respect, you've just been terminated" and then gave me a look, which I interpreted as "you've just been terminated and now need to leave the hospital grounds". She then walked me off the hospital grounds. I felt so insulted. I worked faithfully and treated my patients, colleagues, and staff with the highest professionalism since I started my residency last year. And on the day I was terminated they felt the need to escort me out the hospital.

I do not deny that I have the deficiencies mentioned and I do agree that repeating my PGY-1 year would be good for me. I just don't understand what my attendings saw in me that made them feel I should be terminated. During my time, I did not harm any of my patients. I treat everyone with great professionalism. I was liked by the private attendings and specialists. I know I need to work more efficiently. And I am reading when I am at home. I felt that my deficiencies are correctable.

Now I am unlikely to continue with medicine. I spent the last two weeks thinking of what I should do next and preparing my resume. I am planning to look for jobs in consulting (I read that they are looking for people with analytical skills and are open to people to advanced professional degrees) or pharmaceutical research (I worked as a research technician for several years prior to entering med school) or possibly teaching biology at a community college. I was also thinking of reapplying to another program, but was concerned that if I get terminated I would have wasted another year.

I just wanted to share my story. Thank you for reading.
 
Hello everyone,

Just wanted to make a clarification reg. some false statements by "winged scapula"

"Winged Scapula" cries aloud that people are posting her personal information on the forum. TRUTH is that SHE flashes her identity and personal information, that too while ridiculing and taunting others in trouble.

While mockingly replying to a terminated resident "dr0277341283141", "winged scapula" reveals her identity and boasts about her success.

Read it for yourself folks, and judge this hypocrisy.


WINGED SCAPULA'S REPLY TO dr0277341283141 on this thread itself (page 6):
"My former residency program terminated more than 1 resident for lying. Does that mean that everyone should avoid that program? Not necessarily, IMHO. All I wanted from marsupial was more information, which you have tried to make into something personal.
__________________
Lee A. Burnett: Bit-o-trivia -- when they were writing the pilot for Scrubs, the writers posted on SDN looking for funny stories. There's the belief that "Dr. Cox" is named after our own "Dr. Kimberli Cox". "




Wow! just WOW !!! and to top it all off, she goes about investigating IP addresses, proxies, identities etc.,. This is not just unethical, it is LEGALLY punishable behavior given her role as a SDN administrator.

My sincere comments: "Winged scapula", you may be a successful/popular person, but i don't think anybody cares about your private details or name etc., I was just responding to your comments, and addressed you respectfully by your name which you revealed/ boasted in your posts.

Many of the members in the forum (i am judging by their posts) are aghast that a person of your position ( self-procaimedly great enough to be a TV character) is responding so defensively/ basely.

Anyway, back to the topic of "terminated residents" !

 
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dr90703,
I really feel that sincere residents like you should get a chance to remediate.
Wish you good luck, and hope you find a position soon.

Hello. I've been following this thread since January. I never posted anything before because I was hoping I wouldn't get terminated, but last week I got the awful news. Here's my story.

I am Caribbean grad recently terminated two weeks ago before completing my PGY-1 year in IM............Now I am unlikely to continue with medicine. I spent the last two weeks thinking of what I should do next and preparing my resume. I am planning to look for jobs in consulting (I read that they are looking for people with analytical skills and are open to people to advanced professional degrees) or pharmaceutical research (I worked as a research technician for several years prior to entering med school) or possibly teaching biology at a community college. I was also thinking of reapplying to another program, but was concerned that if I get terminated I would have wasted another year.

I just wanted to share my story. Thank you for reading.
 
It's your position that such privacy documents *must* be furnished upon request. I'm asking for the proof that such a requirement exists. If you say that such documents must be furnished, kindly back up that statement with proof. Don't backpeddle or make *me* prove your point, prove it yourself. Is this a rule, a guideline, or force of law? Throw up a link that states such a requirement exists besides in your mind. Certainly if this is something universally required at all hosting companies, or no-profits you could come up with a link to those requirements. Obviously after multiple requests you cannot, so I doubt what you say is true.

Sorry for the thread drift. I'm done with it. Though I'll end it with a request that web developer dude back his statements. I doubt he will.
Why the edit?

I searched through google, using the correct terms, and it was the first ten hits. Rather, they linked to policies of this nature within several websites of this nature.
 
Hello. I've been following this thread since January. I never posted anything before because I was hoping I wouldn't get terminated, but last week I got the awful news. Here's my story.

It sounds like you're in a tough spot. However, from your description (which to be fair is only 1/2 the story), it sounds like your program is being unreasonable.

The "good news" is that you seem to accept that your performance is sub-par, and that you'll need additional training time to reach your potential. Insight like this is key to improving.

Presumably you have a contract with your program for 1 year of training. They cannot simply terminate you on sight due to this contract. The contract will (should) have some clause in it which allows them to do so, in the case of egregious behavior -- but simply not progressing / being ready to be promoted at the end of the year does not meet this standard. You would need to check your contract, but if it's standard then you would certainly have something to grieve.

What good would that do you? I'm really not sure. If it forced them to take you back, would that be of any benefit? I'm afraid it might be a miserable situation. Your new PD does not need to renew your contract for next year to repeat the PGY-1 (although if you have already signed a PGY-1 contract for next year, then that's another story). Plus, according to ACGME rules, if they planned to not renew your contract they should have given you 120 days notice.

What should you do now? You'll have to decide whether you want to continue with clinical training. If so, then another program makes sense. Perhaps another field. If you don't, you might find that getting a "consulting" gig when you have not completed a residency and went to a carib school is very difficult.
 
I agree with APD.
It sounds like regardless of the intern's deficiencies (or lack of them...I don't know him/her) the program really didn't follow reasonable procedures and it sounds like they also violated his/her residency contract. If the intern really is definitely going to quit clinical medicine, then I'd check the contract and see if they violated it by terminating you all of a sudden. If so, you might be able to get an attorney and collect your salary for May and June, and perhaps could sue also. I'm not a big fan of lawsuits in general, but what they did really wasn't in line with good practices and probably was a contract violation.

I think in these types of situations, it would be much better if residencies would have another faculty member (preferably one friendly with the resident in question) in on these types of meetings. It is probably hard for the intern to even remember all of what was said (because of the shock, etc.) and at least if there had been a faculty member in on the original meeting in February there would be a witness(es) to what was said and done. Also, they should have given the intern specific details about what they wanted done for the person to improve (other than just being "slow" and "knowledge deficient" which are incredibly vague comments).

It sounds like this new PD does not want you in the program, and that is unlikely to change. You might want to consider taking another stab at residency, but somewhere lese. If so, I would try to get a couple of LOR's from attendings in your current program, if possible. Also, would try to get in contact with your OLD program director and try to get an LOR from him/her...that would be key. In this particular situation, I think I'd just try to start over in another specialty. That way it will be easier to justify the starting over, by saying this just wasn't a good field for you, etc.

You can certainly go back to research if you like...nothing wrong with that.

I know that what happened is probably pretty devastating, but there are people who get a 2nd shot @residency. It sounds like you'll need something to do for 1 year anyway...perhaps you can try to find a research position related to another specialty (? psych, physical med/rehab, pathology, etc.). You can try for consulting but it might be harder to find a spot than you are thinking...
 
I'm certainly not an expert on ACGME guidelines, and I agree with what's been said by APD and dragonfly, but the "long list of deficiencies" comment you've made was a bit of a redflag for me. The process of "case-building" prior to terminating a housestaff is often indication that the program is actively pursuing an avenue for terminating the individual, and so it may be a good idea, as others have mentioned, to look over the contract and verify that the program didn't overstep any boundaries in this process (particularly with an attorney who has experience in labor and medical contracts). Just because you retain an attorney doesn't mean you need to pursue with a formal grievance and litigation if you decide that's not in your best interests, but it may help uncloud some of the weirdness surrounding your termination. Also, the manner in which you were "escorted out of the hospital", based on your side of the story only, is suspicious as well. Generally, if a program does reach the point where they see no other avenue other than terminating a resident (and it's generally in a program's best interests to do all they feasibly can to avoid having to resort to that), they'll often at least provide some support and guidance to help the individual transition to some sort of other pursuit, whether to switch to a new specialty, etc. But to just be terminated on the spot and rushed out the door indeed seems peculiar.
 
Hello everyone,

Just wanted to make a clarification reg. some false statements by "winged scapula"

"Winged Scapula" cries aloud that people are posting her personal information on the forum. TRUTH is that SHE flashes her identity and personal information, that too while ridiculing and taunting others in trouble.

While mockingly replying to a terminated resident "dr0277341283141", "winged scapula" reveals her identity and boasts about her success.

Read it for yourself folks, and judge this hypocrisy.


WINGED SCAPULA'S REPLY TO dr0277341283141 on this thread itself (page 6):
"My former residency program terminated more than 1 resident for lying. Does that mean that everyone should avoid that program? Not necessarily, IMHO. All I wanted from marsupial was more information, which you have tried to make into something personal.
__________________
Lee A. Burnett: Bit-o-trivia -- when they were writing the pilot for Scrubs, the writers posted on SDN looking for funny stories. There's the belief that "Dr. Cox" is named after our own "Dr. Kimberli Cox". "




Wow! just WOW !!! and to top it all off, she goes about investigating IP addresses, proxies, identities etc.,. This is not just unethical, it is LEGALLY punishable behavior given her role as a SDN administrator.

My sincere comments: "Winged scapula", you may be a successful/popular person, but i don't think anybody cares about your private details or name etc., I was just responding to your comments, and addressed you respectfully by your name which you revealed/ boasted in your posts.

Many of the members in the forum (i am judging by their posts) are aghast that a person of your position ( self-procaimedly great enough to be a TV character) is responding so defensively/ basely.

Anyway, back to the topic of "terminated residents" !



First of all everyone on this site knows that thinkingman=dr0277341283141. Do you really think changing your status to attending makes you more believable?

What in the quote you posted by winged do you find offensive, defensive, or attacking others? I would bet that there isn't a single other person on this sight that finds that quote offensive in any way. As always, she is simply trying to provide useful information to the participants on this forum.

If you ever do get that chip off your shoulder, please make sure you do it in a non-populated area. Considering the size of it, it will probably hit 7 on the richter scale.
 
I'm certainly not an expert on ACGME guidelines, and I agree with what's been said by APD and dragonfly, but the "long list of deficiencies" comment you've made was a bit of a redflag for me. The process of "case-building" prior to terminating a housestaff is often indication that the program is actively pursuing an avenue for terminating the individual, and so it may be a good idea, as others have mentioned, to look over the contract and verify that the program didn't overstep any boundaries in this process (particularly with an attorney who has experience in labor and medical contracts). Just because you retain an attorney doesn't mean you need to pursue with a formal grievance and litigation if you decide that's not in your best interests, but it may help uncloud some of the weirdness surrounding your termination. Also, the manner in which you were "escorted out of the hospital", based on your side of the story only, is suspicious as well. Generally, if a program does reach the point where they see no other avenue other than terminating a resident (and it's generally in a program's best interests to do all they feasibly can to avoid having to resort to that), they'll often at least provide some support and guidance to help the individual transition to some sort of other pursuit, whether to switch to a new specialty, etc. But to just be terminated on the spot and rushed out the door indeed seems peculiar.

I agree. The way this person was treated sounds unconscionable, unless there is something big we aren't being told...I mean unless this person was just lazy and grossly negligent and killed a patient. However, honestly it should not be very easy to kill a patient as an intern b/c one should be supervised. They could have at least given the person a couple months notice. It definitely sounds like the Feb. meeting was just laying the ground work to terminate the person...it seems that the new PD does not want this person and had already made up his mind about things. Legally, to cover his a-- he has to have this list of grievances and deficiencies to use against the intern. I have seen this happen to a couple of people I know, though both ultimately survived residency. It's all pretty sad. Perhaps the intern in question just isn't a very good standardized test taker and the program is nervous about people not passing the boards @ the end of residency, so they'd rather cut this person loose than do any type of remediation. Perhaps the new PD has just decided he doesn't want any IMG's on board. There may have been factors at play here that were not controllable by the intern in question, no matter how hard he tried to improve.

Lastly, stories like this make me worry even more about all those people down there in the Caribbean going to med school, as well. What will be their fate, professionally speaking? I hope things turn out OK for this intern in the end.
 
Is teri78=winged scapula ? Neither is thinkingman=dr0277341283141. Question is on whose behalf are you attacking me, teri? :)

If you can correctly understand, I pasted winged scapula's comments and quote for people to understand that winged scapula revealed her name in her posts, and that there was no need for anyone to investigate/research her name/identity (as she alleged). I don't find anything offensive in her advertisement/boastful quote, but I do find offensive her taunting of the troubled resident, which she did her posts/ replies to that particular member dr0277341283141.

Your status shows that you are a resident (if that is true), so you just hope that you end up as an attending - and not as a "terminated resident". If you (teri78) were a terminated resident and your posts on this forum were being ridiculed by a well-placed attending, I would point it out the impropriety, just as I did in the case of dr0277341283141. As for me I finished my Family Med residency a long time back.

I don't know what "chip" you are talking about, learn to be more clear. Eat your own "chips", get your own bag. You better try to avoid getting a richter scale 7 hit (terminated residency) chip on your shoulder. :)

And by the way, there definetely were people who were offended by winged scapula's talk of identity searching, investigating IP addresses, Internet proxies etc., Look at the posts by slight365, tkim and others.

So teri78, get you facts straight.


First of all everyone on this site knows that thinkingman=dr0277341283141.Do you really think changing your status to attending makes you more believable?

What in the quote you posted by winged do you find offensive, defensive, or attacking others? I would bet that there isn't a single other person on this sight that finds that quote offensive in any way. As always, she is simply trying to provide useful information to the participants on this forum.

If you ever do get that chip off your shoulder, please make sure you do it in a non-populated area. Considering the size of it, it will probably hit 7 on the richter scale.
 
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I'm still trying to find the part where WS "mocked" or "taunted" anyone. I saw her point out that not all terminations are unjustified. I have no doubt there are residents who get shafted and I feel the utmost compassion for them. But anyone who's ever had a job knows that sometimes there are people who need to be let go - they can't do the job, can't remediate their issues, won't admit they have issues, can't get along with others, etc. I feel bad for those residents as well - but that doesn't change the fact that in some cases, termination is ultimately the right choice. It's not always the evil employer (or in this case residency program) crushing an innocent victim. That's just reality.

Rereading this thread yet again, all I see was her pointing out that, followed by dr0277341283141 suddenly becoming hostile and saying she was taunting people and saying they deserved to be terminated.

Just to be clear, I'm NOT saying that any of the people posting here deserved to be terminated. I'm really sorry it happens to anyone, and I know sometimes it's not justified. Dr90703 you in particular sound like you really worked hard to be a better resident and correct any deficiencies - I'm sorry that you were treated that way. I hope that you get a chance in another residency, if you decide you want to stay with clinical medicine.
 
And by the way, there definetely were people who were offended by winged scapula's talk of identity searching, investigating IP addresses, Internet proxies etc., Look at the posts by slight365, tkim and others.

So teri78, get you facts straight.

Get YOUR facts straight - I wasn't offended by WS comments. Don't use me as support for your position.
 
dr90703

Welcome to the "I got canned by my program" club. Your story sounds similar to mine: program felt you weren't on par with the rest of your class, you agreed with the assessment and worked extra hard to improve but without any resolve.

First things First:

1. Health
Take care of yourself. Even if you know you're going to get hit by a moving car, it still hurts when it happens. I can't emphasize how important it is to cope with the onslaught of emotions you probably feel. Everyone has different coping mechanisms and some people are better at it than others. If you're good at it then do what you know best. If you're not, then keep a close eye on yourself. Seek professional help when it suits you.

Depression. You may feel that you would like to walk along the cliffs of Cali blindfolded... It's natural to feel down. My situation happened in Aug-Nov and quite frankly, I've forgotten what it is like to be happy. So, you may be in this mood for the long haul. While it's natural to feel down, be careful not to display it. Because it will not help you. Others will capitalize on this. From what I've observed, it's human nature. Try not to show this emotion at the next interview...

Low Confidence - your confidence is strong as a lump of sand. Periodically remind yourself of the things you did right during your residency - or other areas of your life. Those patients that you really enjoyed caring for... You'll need to rebuild your confidence before your next interview.

Anger/Bitterness - I lumped them together because these are the really nasty ones. It's natural to feel anger for a brief time. It's bad to feel that way for a long time. Put out the fire. Control your emotions. People will read your body language. Don't display it. I bet what really pisses you off is how others in your program flew under the radar... Bitterness is the worst one to have - as soon as you see it, crush it!

Food. - Avoid maladaptive habits. Set out a schedule for yourself on your daily diet if you're not able to control your eating habits. Overeating or under eating because these behaviours will only exacerbate your current situation.

Exercise - If you like pumping iron and running - continue with it! I swear this is the mood booster.

Sorry but I'm out of time before I get to real meat of this reply...

N
 
Let's please allow this thread to revert to its original topic: helping terminated residents.

We may not all agree on the best way to do that. What some of us have to say may not be what the posters want to hear, as is true with a lot of advice. But SDN has a long history of helping users and we should continue that focus.

Thank you to those who have supported me publically and privately. I appreciate it as the almost always thankless job of Mod/Admin is difficult. My intentions were good and I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings.
 
Dr90703,

I really do wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide to do. It is good to hear someone who acknowledges that they might have some deficiencies and tries to improve on them. I have a great deal of respect for you and know that you will succeed in whatever you choose to do.
 
No, it's not me. This person basically committed a lewd act in front of others. It's rather unfortunate that this person had a career cut so short.

why is it unfortunate? A loser like that shouldn't be a doctor.
 
Hey Dr90703,

Here's a continuation of my original post...

2. Your ex-Program
DO NOT BURN BRIDGES. I'm sure you've heard this before, but hear it again.

The PD et al.:
From the story you're telling it seems that the interim PD just decided to cut you loose because s/he felt like you could not be remediated. Whether this is fair or not you must decide.

As for the treatment of you by the GME director well, it's probably because they wanted you out of that hospital a.s.a.p. They were probably afraid that you would cause some sort of a raucous. I've seen a director of a hospital escorted out by security when he got fired. It was policy. So, don't take it personally. We're all too familiar with stories of fired employees going nutz.

So, what's your next move with your program? I'll defer most advice to aPD and dragonfly. But, is there any way you can get the interim PD to let you complete your intern year and get credit. Afterall, they were evaluating you as a categorical intern. What if they evaluated you as a prelim. You could mention to them that IM is not for your and you're much better suited for a different specialty. You could start of the conversation (or email) that you would like some advice from the PD. Afterall, he has been evaluating you for the past few months and should be able to tell you if you belong in the medical field and maybe help you get there...

The other issue is if they were correct in firing you on the spot. Read over your HO Handbook or equivalent. Also, when they give you a list of deficiencies, did they make you sign another contract? If so, what did it say, and were they right to terminate you?

When approaching your PD keep in mind that he will be playing on the defence with you. He may even take an offensive approach. He's made his decision to can you and will do anything to defend it. He'll be extra defensive if he actively tried to anniliate you...i.e. set you up to fail. The signs for this are that you could only rotate with certain attendings, usually those who are under the foot of your PD (technically in your program that's everyone b/c your PD is the Chairman). Other signs are that you kept getting pinned for silly little mistakes. Your evals made mountains out of molehills. Evals made you out to be the most pathetic ever created by God.

Either way, when you talk to your PD you'll have to ease him up a bit...

If you decide to involve a lawyer: DO NOT LET YOUR PROGRAM - OR ANYONE ASSOCIATED WITH IT - KNOW YOU ARE TALKING TO A LAWYER.

Others in the Program
First of all, be very careful in terms of who you trust. Remember you're the black sheep now. As for everyone else, faculty and co-resident's thier careers are in front of them and thier immediate career is with the current PD. So, their loyalty will naturally go to him.

Furthermore, the PD did not act on his own when he decided to can you. He must have recieved input from other faculty maybe even residents. So, when you decide to approach others in the program, just be cautious in what you say - don't start bashing your PD or anyone else.

You'll need strong letters of rec from faculty you've alredy rotated with. Out of those who like you, set up meeting with them. I guess you should set up meetings out side the premises of your residency program. I don't think the GME director etc... would be happy to see you again in the hospital. Why piss him off? In terms of faculty, be honest and sincere. Do not bash the PD in front of the faculty. If you have another specialty in mind, tell the faculty that you feel that your skills are better suited for a new specialty.

Waiving LoR's. If it is from the PD don't (at least that is something is I wish had done). Everyone else...well, that's up to you. One faculty member at my program told me it was foolish to waive letters...

Talking to the Chiefs
Yeah yeah, they're your buddies and you probably had a few beers with them. Overall, they are nothing more than tools and will do anything the PD tells them to do. They probably even had some input into the decision to can you. Maybe your cheifs are different. But mine are definitely tools.

Talking to other Resident's.
Well, you're a black sheep. And you are no longer thier colleague. Put yourself in thier shoes...if you saw Resident John Doe get canned from your program, what would you do? Probably nothing. You would probably feel that they program in it's omnipotence was right. Even if you disagreed, would you jeopardize your position in the program for someone else? Probably not.

But you may have a few surprises! There may be quite a few sympathizers. Especially if your program/PD are known to malignant. However, the issue is not getting sympathy, the issue is salvaging your career. Unless you are sure that another resident can open a door for, I would collect email addresses/phone numbers and then just leave.


I'll have to finish the rest later...
N
 
Dear Winged Scapula, I too apologize for any unintentional hurt that I may have caused.

I agree that You and SDN have been helping a lot of users over the years, and I do believe that the more well-known people like you can be of great help in reforming graduate med education.

We really have a lot of residents (especially the ones who are terminated after being labelled "incompetent") facing abuse silently, and I, and I am sure you, and all of us reading this forum feel bad for them.

Medicine is supposed to be a noble profession, not just in our interaction with patients, but in our interaction with colleagues/ juniors/ residents as well. I feel that it is the responsibility of all of us (especially those who are done with residency), to tackle this abuse. Most (great majority) of these terminations are because of personal likes/ dislikes and "setting up to fail" kind of deals, hence I call them (terminations) abuse. A genuinely unremediable candidate would be extremely rare. Most of these dismissed residents are very salvageable, despite their inadequacies, and I don't think they deserve termination of careers.

I hope you will try to help these unfortunate folks with your advice, just as you have helped a lot of other members. Peace.




Let's please allow this thread to revert to its original topic: helping terminated residents.

We may not all agree on the best way to do that. What some of us have to say may not be what the posters want to hear, as is true with a lot of advice. But SDN has a long history of helping users and we should continue that focus.

Thank you to those who have supported me publically and privately. I appreciate it as the almost always thankless job of Mod/Admin is difficult. My intentions were good and I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings.
 
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Great advice by NSAP102 to Dr90703!

Food for thought:
I think that NBME/ state medical boards should have medico-legal teams for independently assessing the decisions/ fairness of GME commitees, and also for independently assessing the medical competency of terminated residents.

Say, if a Family Practice resident is in line for termination/ non-renewal for medical incompetency, then the state's FP medico-legal team could independently judge the competency of the resident over say a 2 week period, and could evaluate whether what the PD/ program alleges reg. his incompetency is true. Each ACGME accredited program should be required to pay for this situation, in case it arises. The state should have a tailormade team for each specialty.

In case the Program still does not want that resident (even if the team deems him reasonably competent), then the team could give a skills certificate vouching the candidate's performance during that evaluation period, and this could be a more objective assessment tool when this non-renewed resident applies to other programs.

Moreover, if the program alleges that it is letting go of a resident for inadequate skills, lack of organization, communication deficiencies etc, then this objective report could be used as a counter during the GME hearing. The legal side of the team could bat for the resident in a court, as appropriate.

This system would also obviously help filter out truly incompetent residents.

Await your comments and discussions as to what we can practically do to improve the system!
 
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I don't think having an independent evaluation committee would be practical. Nobody is going to do that, because it interferes too much with the GME process. It would be like having an independent commission that goes in and tries to overrule clinical grades in 3rd/4th year of medical school whenever a student feels he/she has been treated unfairly. Also, the situation you propose seems like it would make it nearly impossible to fire a resident, which I don't see happening (although we trainees would doubtless like it that way). After all, people can be fired from pretty much any job, and there's no reason to think that society at large wants physicians to be immune from being fired, regardless of performance. I agree that a lot of terminations are based on personality issues/conflicts at least as much (or more so) than on actual problems with competence/functioning, though.

I would propose the following to help:
1) Somehow we should make it easier for residents to tranfer/leave programs if the programs are not doing their job of educating residents well and providing a decent quality of life @work. Right now it is very, very hard to get another residency if one quits, is terminated or just wants to leave a residency because it turns out to be a not very good residency for that person (or a not very good program in general). We need to change this, because under our current system residency programs have almost unlimited power over trainees and this leaves trainees open to abuse. It also does not "light a fire" under weak residency programs to improve their teaching and/or the situations with excessive scut work that exist @some residency programs.

2) There should be more transparency in the evaluation and remediation processes. If a resident is being put on probation or having some sort of disciplinary meeting, the resident should be notified of this in advance and be allowed to have a faculty member of his/her choice there, not just the resident and the PD. It would help to have a 3rd party there, as a witness to what was said and done, and might help the resident better digest the criticisms presented, and would provide moral support in a tough situation. I also think that promotions, etc. within a residency program should have to involve multiple people making the decision (not just the PD and/or medicine dept. chair). Granted, this might not work well because especially at some smaller programs the PD and/or chair might hold undue influence over other attendings. However, involving more people and having more transparency in the whole remediation process, etc. might help.

3) Residency programs should also have to give at least a couple months notice before firing someone, and they should really be held to this.

4) If a resident leaves a program, whether on good or bad terms, the program should have to provide (when requested later) all pertinent documentation that the resident needs for medical licensing, etc. in a timely manner (say 30 days). I have a friend who switched specialties after intern year, and wasn't on the greatest of terms with his old program (but passed the year fine, etc.). He always had trouble getting the documentation from them whenever he was trying to get a medical license in a new state, etc. It would take them months to cough up the basic documentation about when he had trained there, etc. It was ridiculous and just vindictive I think.

5) The AMA resident/fellow section I think recently passed (or proposed?) a "resident's bill of rights" that deals with multiple issues related to residency education, and proposes ideal policies that should be in place in residency programs. I think it addresses quality of life issues (such as benefits, etc.) as well as things like evaluation, etc. It might be worth checking it out.
 
Food for thought:
I think that NBME/ state medical boards should have medico-legal teams for independently assessing the decisions/ fairness of GME commitees, and also for independently assessing the medical competency of terminated residents.

Say, if a Family Practice resident is in line for termination/ non-renewal for medical incompetency, then the state's FP medico-legal team could independently judge the competency of the resident over say a 2 week period, and could evaluate whether what the PD/ program alleges reg. his incompetency is true. Each ACGME accredited program should be required to pay for this situation, in case it arises. The state should have a tailormade team for each specialty.

In case the Program still does not want that resident (even if the team deems him reasonably competent), then the team could give a skills certificate vouching the candidate's performance during that evaluation period, and this could be a more objective assessment tool when this non-renewed resident applies to other programs.

Moreover, if the program alleges that it is letting go of a resident for inadequate skills, lack of organization, communication deficiencies etc, then this objective report could be used as a counter during the GME hearing. The legal side of the team could bat for the resident in a court, as appropriate.

This system would also obviously help filter out truly incompetent residents.

Await your comments and discussions as to what we can practically do to improve the system!

This is a completely insane idea. Which is exactly why I actually like it.

Let's pare it down a bit. Instead of a medico-legal team, the state could have just a physician from each specialty who's job it is to review situations like this. No need for lawyers. This person could come in for 1-2 weeks an assess the resident. That assessment becomes the property of the resident, and can be used for applying for a new job. If the assessment comes back as "OK", the program can still terminate the resident and argue that the assessment is incorrect -- the resident would then be able to use the independent assessment in applying for a new residency.

Alternatively, the state could assign this job to a specific program in the state -- take a "best practices" program and if a resident has a problem in another program, send them there for a 2-4 week assessment. This would be less expensive overall.

Costs would be a problem. Sending in an expert for 2 weeks will cost at least $10K, and might not be feasible in the timeframe needed. Sending a resident to another program might be more affordable and more flexible, but might be difficult for the resident as they would be away from home, be in a new system, community vs university, etc.

Not to mention that if we used either of these systems and the resident "failed", that would probably be the end of their career without rescue.
 
APD's suggestions make this idea more practical.

I agree that having a "designated program" and sending the problem resident to that program would be more practical (and less expensive) than the medico-legal team. An "OK" assessment from that independent program (which knows nothing about the previous issues of the problem resident) would greatly help him in his quest for a PGY2 position or another PGY1 position as appropriate.

Logisitics such as distance from home, new system etc would be of minimal consideration to the resident, as his career is at stake here. And appropriate adjustments could be made here, for example EMR issues - centricity vs epic etc., but the core concentration would be on the clinical management skills of the resident.

A genuinely incompetent resident would have it tougher with this system, but it will benefit the great majority of terminated/ nonrenewed (truly competent) residents.

I also feel that Program Director LORs for non-renewed/ terminated residents should mandatorily be unwaived - as should be phone conversations between PDs reg. such resident's transfer. The phone call should be a conference call involving these 3 parties - old PD, possible new PD, Problem resident. Vindictveness/ double talk will be checked by this.

Dragonfly99's idea of having a neutral 3rd person involved during the problem resident's probation sound good.

The state needs to rigorously monitor programs which have a blaring history of non-renewals and terminations, and investigate the efforts made by them towards resident remediation. A "bad" here could mean the closure of the residency program/ due action.


This is a completely insane idea. Which is exactly why I actually like it.

Let's pare it down a bit. Instead of a medico-legal team, the state could have just a physician from each specialty who's job it is to review situations like this. No need for lawyers. This person could come in for 1-2 weeks an assess the resident. That assessment becomes the property of the resident, and can be used for applying for a new job. If the assessment comes back as "OK", the program can still terminate the resident and argue that the assessment is incorrect -- the resident would then be able to use the independent assessment in applying for a new residency.

Alternatively, the state could assign this job to a specific program in the state -- take a "best practices" program and if a resident has a problem in another program, send them there for a 2-4 week assessment. This would be less expensive overall.

Costs would be a problem. Sending in an expert for 2 weeks will cost at least $10K, and might not be feasible in the timeframe needed. Sending a resident to another program might be more affordable and more flexible, but might be difficult for the resident as they would be away from home, be in a new system, community vs university, etc.

Not to mention that if we used either of these systems and the resident "failed", that would probably be the end of their career without rescue.
 
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Thank you WS. This is me with the ID of "thinkingman". I was banned and could not post, don't understand why ?!
I am guessing that it is because of miscommunication, so I am posting under the ID of "thinkingdoctor". Hope you will look into it, WS.


Thank you thinkingman. Your participation as an attending will be welcomed, I'm sure, by the students and residents here. Welcome to SDN.
 
not to derail the current topic here, but i posted early on during my intership last year, and i'd like to shed some positive light on this thread (as much of it has turned into doom and gloom).

i was concerned about failing as an intern at first. i thought they would be sending me that piece of paper saying my contract would not be renewed. i followed this thread closely, wondering what i could do to protect myself.

now that i'm 4 weeks away from becoming an PGY-2, i'm somewhat surprised by the turn of events over the last 6 months or so. i've worked very hard; i'm more careful and methodical about everything i do now. i know what each attending expects of me, and i taylor my presentation and approach to satisfy each one of them differently. i'll be the senior resident on the floor team my first month, which is sort of a compliment, seeing where i came from.

you can succeed, even if things start off poorly. a lot of residency is about "playing the game." you get a sense of the overall purpose of what you are doing as time goes on. there is an "ah-ha" moment somewhere in the middle of intern year. most people get it. even if you are a slow learner. there's no reason for any of us to fail. those who fail seem to have poor insight into their weaknesses. recognize your weak spots, and work on them. be humble. be kind to people, even when you are tired. before you know it, intership is over. it goes pretty fast!

best of luck new PGY-1's!
 
Hello. I've been following this thread since January. I never posted anything before because I was hoping I wouldn't get terminated, but last week I got the awful news. Here's my story.

I am Caribbean grad recently terminated two weeks ago before completing my PGY-1 year in IM. In January I was called into the program director's office where he mentioned that he was concerned that I was staying late and my clinical judgement poor. He felt that I was not ready to progress to my PGY-2 year and wanted me to repeat my PGY-1 year. I guess he saw my anxiety and reassured me that I would have a job next year. After discussing this with him, I agreed that I had these deficiencies and thought repeating the year would be beneficial. He also mentioned that I would be continued to be monitored by the faculty and depending on their recommendation I would be promoted or not. Again he mentioned that I would have a job for next year. The program director then decided to leave the program after he was offered to be the program director of a new IM program. So our chief of medicine became the interm program director.

After that meeting, I worked as hard as I could. Asking attendings if they saw any deficiencies and making any necessary changes. I tried working faster and read more. I spoke to my residents to see if I could make any changes.

In February, I met with the chief of medicine/interm program director and he handed me a letter listing my deficiencies. The letter ended with a statement stating that if I failed to correct these deficiencies, I would be terminated from the program. I was very confused because I thought that my job secured and the question was there I would be promoted with my class or not.

I was very confused and frustrated. I was making the appropriate corrections. I was not staying as late and working more efficiently. I knew that I still had alot to improve, but I guess it wasn't enough. I spoke to a resident that I knew and worked with and he mentioned that other residents felt I was a hard worker and professional and that if asked by the program, the residents would support me. The attending who I worked with for 1 week, felt that during that time, he did not get a sense that my medical knowledge was severely lacking.

So I continued to work harder, coming in early and trying to get feedback from residents and attendings. I attempted to make as many corrections to deficiencies that I could.

Finaly two weeks ago, I was to meet with the interm program director for my annual review. I got a sense something was wrong when the GME director was also present at the meeting. That was when he handed me the letter of termination. I told him that the prior program director told me that my position was secured and likely I would be repeating my PGY-1 year. Then I asked him what changed, he mentioned that the faculty felt my clinical judgement was poor and that I was not working efficiently. I guess I should also mention that during this time, none of my patients were ever harmed by my actions. I got along well with private attendings and specialized attendings.

I was not angry or shocked when this happened. I guess I had a sense this was coming. When I first met the interm program director in Febrary and got the probation letter, the letter mentioned so many deficiencies that I felt that the program was looking to terminate me and now they were looking for evidence to support termination. What did upset me was that after I got the termination letter, the program wanted me to leave the hospital as quickly as possible. The GME director immediately took my pager and ID, went with me to the resident's lounge to help with cleaning my locker. When I asked her if I could speak to the chief residents to discuss this and what I should do next, she just mentioned that being terminated was a lot to take in and I should go home and think. If I wish to call the chiefs I could do it later. I told her I would really like to speak to the chiefs, she stated "with all due respect, you've just been terminated" and then gave me a look, which I interpreted as "you've just been terminated and now need to leave the hospital grounds". She then walked me off the hospital grounds. I felt so insulted. I worked faithfully and treated my patients, colleagues, and staff with the highest professionalism since I started my residency last year. And on the day I was terminated they felt the need to escort me out the hospital.

I do not deny that I have the deficiencies mentioned and I do agree that repeating my PGY-1 year would be good for me. I just don't understand what my attendings saw in me that made them feel I should be terminated. During my time, I did not harm any of my patients. I treat everyone with great professionalism. I was liked by the private attendings and specialists. I know I need to work more efficiently. And I am reading when I am at home. I felt that my deficiencies are correctable.

Now I am unlikely to continue with medicine. I spent the last two weeks thinking of what I should do next and preparing my resume. I am planning to look for jobs in consulting (I read that they are looking for people with analytical skills and are open to people to advanced professional degrees) or pharmaceutical research (I worked as a research technician for several years prior to entering med school) or possibly teaching biology at a community college. I was also thinking of reapplying to another program, but was concerned that if I get terminated I would have wasted another year.

I just wanted to share my story. Thank you for reading.

I am in a similar situation. I, too, am a caribbean graduate from one of the "big four" with phenomenal board scores (upper 90's), first time passes, good grades, good clinical evaluations, good letters of rec, and managed to match into a university program for a "non traditional residency".

About a month before my residency began, I encountered a devastating personal event, which I believe may have been a factor that marred my performance. My first rotation, which was three months in length was completed satisfactorily with few issues. The next rotation, however, I encountered issues in the first week which ultimately culminated in my being called into the division chair's office and I was sent home for the day. I later was called by my chief resident mentioning that I could come back to work on monday. I did come back work on monday, however, my confidence in my abilities was shattered. I attempted to avoid the situation that led to the previous encounter with the division chair and it consequently led to my inefficiency at performing my duties. I got to the point where I dreaded going to the hospital every morning because I was afraid that I would get some case that would be hard for me to complete and would reflect poorly on me. I was highly inefficient and I had a great deal of anxiety at this time too.

After about three weeks on this rotation, I was called into my PD's office and was asked about what was going on? They were curious about why someone with my stats would be having a lot of trouble in residency. I did mention a few of the personal events that were transpiring in my life at the time and how I felt they were impacting me. My PD did mention that I would be relieved of my duties on my current service and placed onto another service; I was also issued a letter that stated my deficiencies and how they were to be remedied and the consequences of not remedying them.
I did start on my new service and I completed it. I was to repeat the rotation I had trouble with at the end of this new rotation.
I started my repeat rotation and I got through about a month of it until early february, when I, too, received a page stating to come to my PDs office. I did go, and I somehow knew immediately what was going on and what was going to occur. I was handed a letter stating that my contract would not be re-newed since some of the issues voiced during my previous attempt at that service were still present and that that day would be my last day. I was effectively defrocked of my ID, keys, and pager. I was encouraged to go to the GME office where I could be apprised of my options. Thankfully, I left the program in good standing.
I did attempt, unsuccessfully, to scramble into another position in another specialty.
I did meet with my PD a few times after the incident to discuss my situation and what could be done. The PD mentioned that a strong letter would not be able to written; the best that could be done is telling a future program that I "deserve a second chance".

Understandably, I am at a complete loss as what to do. In a few short months, I went from stellar medical student and promising physician to someone who's future in medicine and even life is jeopardized. I now have a scarlet letter that will follow me for the rest of my natural life. People keep telling me that this is a blessing in disguise and that I will eventually find my way. My meetings with my PD after the incident seemed to revolve around the fact that I would somehow need to redeem myself by garnering more data points to make this seem like a mere anomaly and not a pattern. How to go about this, I have no idea. With the specter of a "termination" hanging over me, it could be difficult to procure a research position or even a lab job at a hospital with a residency program. I guess I go through days where I feel somewhat optimistic about my prospects, and there are days when I feel it is utterly hopeless. The fact that differentiates me from the previous poster is the fact that I have no work experience in any lab or research capacity- so that in itself is another obstacle to ovecome.Anyhow, I guess if one door closes, another opens right?
 
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That really sucks.
Sorry that happened to you.
I think that if this was a surgical program, you still likely have a decent shot at various other specialties. Just pick another specialty and move on.

If you haven't already, I'd try to get clarification (and a written statement) of how many months of credit you are going to get for intern year. You can assume you'll have to repeat intern year, though.

I think you can definitely apply for research jobs without having experience...depending on what the job is, they may still hire you. It would probably help if you had a new specialty in mind, so you can try to find something related. Still, labs always need more scut monkeys...that's why there are so many people from Asia here on visas working for low wages as lab techs.

You might want to seek legal advice...not b/c you want to sue your old program, but sometimes it helps to get objective advice. I'm curious about whether how they fired you violated your intern year contract. Also, it might have helped (might still help?) if you could get the status of your leaving to be "left by mutual agreement" rather than "terminated/fired" or "left under threat of being terminated" because the latter two things are specifically asked about on medical licensing applications in various states.

Regardless, if you could get yourself into a new residency and do well, this thing that happened may end up affecting your career minimally, or not at all, in your new specialty.
 
That really sucks.
Sorry that happened to you.
I think that if this was a surgical program, you still likely have a decent shot at various other specialties. Just pick another specialty and move on.

If you haven't already, I'd try to get clarification (and a written statement) of how many months of credit you are going to get for intern year. You can assume you'll have to repeat intern year, though.

I think you can definitely apply for research jobs without having experience...depending on what the job is, they may still hire you. It would probably help if you had a new specialty in mind, so you can try to find something related. Still, labs always need more scut monkeys...that's why there are so many people from Asia here on visas working for low wages as lab techs.

You might want to seek legal advice...not b/c you want to sue your old program, but sometimes it helps to get objective advice. I'm curious about whether how they fired you violated your intern year contract. Also, it might have helped (might still help?) if you could get the status of your leaving to be "left by mutual agreement" rather than "terminated/fired" or "left under threat of being terminated" because the latter two things are specifically asked about on medical licensing applications in various states.

Regardless, if you could get yourself into a new residency and do well, this thing that happened may end up affecting your career minimally, or not at all, in your new specialty.

The nature of the letter was "non-renewal of contract". However, I was not permitted to finish out the rest of the year. The field was pathology, a rather competative one I might add. I know for a fact that I can likely get at least 5 months of credit for my intern year. Thinking about it in retrospect, it was very possible that the field of pathology was not the right one for me in terms of skill set and what not. The problems I can forsee is the fact that pathology is deemed to be an "easy" field by many physicians and that it would be difficult to convince a difficult to convince a program that it really was not the right field for me. And contrary to popular opinion, pathology is not a "lifestyle" specialty like most people believe.
 
I have to be honest, I assumed this was a surgical field also. You are correct that some will see pathology as a less intensive training program than IM/FP/Peds etc. It's probably more accurate that there are different skill sets in the different fields. Still, it will be a bit of an uphill battle.

I disagree a bit with DF here. There is no point to asking how much PGY-1 credit you're going to get. You are going to be repeating your entire PGY-1 no matter what field you go into, especially now that we know your PGY-1 does not include much patient contact / management (i.e. you can't simply finish your PGY-1 and then try to get a license and practice)

Also, legal advice is not going to be very helpful. Your contract prevents you from being terminated at will -- i.e. as long as your performance is satisfactory you will continue to work and be promoted. If your performance is subsatisfactory, you can be terminated. You would need to be warned, in writing, and would need to be given a chance to improve -- both of which appeared to happen. The most you could get out of legal action would be your additional pay until the end of the year, at the cost of completely blowing any type of positive recommendation. Not a winning strategy, in my book.

Advice:

1. First, you need to decide whether you want to continue to pursue path or something else.

2. If Path, then you need to get a new PGY-1 spot. It unlikely that your past successes (medical school) will carry the day, given your current predicament, unless you can convince a PD that your deficiencies are in the past. Thus, you really need more path experience. ? if you could work as a path tech -- this would get you a paycheck, give you some path experience, and then allow you to volunteer on the weekends, getting more training. Perhaps with this you could open more doors (I have no idea is some specialized degree/training/license is required to be a path tech)

3. If it's "something else", then you need to decide what it will be. I can't really help you with that.

4. Regardless, at this point one of your best bets (Path or Something else) is to fill a hole left by someone else. Someone else will leave a program -- illness, failing out, pregnancy, etc -- and a PD will need someone for less than a year -- maybe 3-6 months. You need to try to get one of those spots. If it works out, then perhaps they can continue your training. Even if they can't, if you do well many more doors will open for you. Spots like this are not easy to find -- several websites list some, many are WoM only (Word of Mouth).
 
I have also seen this (residents forced to repeat 6 months of residency, etc., really due to attendings not liking their personalities , rather than some serious performance issues). Luckily it never happened to anyone really close to me, but I sure felt sorry for folks in that situation, as it seemed just at the whim of certain academic attendings, who overlooked the screwups of other residents who were good at playing the necessary political games.

During my interview season I met an arrogant PD who let it slip that they've had residents repeat rotations. I didn't rank that program, TG.
 
Looking back at the past year and being introspective, I realized that my skill set would have been better geared towards a clinically based specialty and not pathology. So my answer is "something else", i.e. IM, FP, ect. Now, how would I go about finding those spots to fill where someone drops out or whatever? I do have a good number of friends who are residents in other programs who would be willing to help me find open spots and vouch for the fact that this is an isolated incident. I am still receiving benefits and my salary until the expiration of my contract.

During the scramble, I managed to secure an interview in a clinical specialty and was able to make a sensible arguement as to why I wanted to change from pathology to clinical medicine. Problems, of course, came up when trying to describe why I had poor performance in an "easy" pathology residency. Naturally, I was not offered a position.

My program basically "non-renewed" my contract; I was not, however, permitted to complete the rest of the year. I don't believe I was "dismissed" per se; I did leave the program in good standing. They mentioned doing it this way because they wanted to make this a less onerous burden upon me when trying to find a new residency.

My PD and I are still on good terms and is supportive of me. However, it was mentioned that a strong letter of rec could not be written given my sordid performance- the best that could be done is "pathology was the wrong field and that [he] deserve a second chance at something else". A few of the faculty are supportive of me and have offered to serve as references and write LORs.

I should mention that the PD of the internal medicine program at which I rotated did write me a strong LOR in support of my first residency application and they know my strengths. Would it be worthwhile to contact this person, and what should I say concerning my situation? The same is true with my pyschiatry rotation. I know both of these PDs personally and they have both observed my performance. In addition, the PD at the program at which I interviewed for the clinical specialty also liked me.
I have heard the term thrown around to "contact and work with program directors" to help procure a spot? What exactly does that mean and entail?

And what other options are available to garner more data points to prove that the past year was merely a blip and not a pattern to support my desire to enter a clinically based specialty?
 
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And what other options are available to garner more data points to prove that the past year was merely a blip and not a pattern to support my desire to enter a clinically based specialty?

I know exactly how life events can create havoc on residency performance; I had my children during residency and my parent lost their cancer battle during that time, it wasn't pretty L

Point out how great you were as a student, but be prepared to effectively answer questions as to the etiology (and I assume correction) of your prior difficulty. They probably can't get into specifics (legally) but any program that would entertain the idea of taking a chance on you is going to want to know that whatever your impediment was has been taken care of and will not manifest itself when you start anew.

Brother, work your network. Call the people who knew you well and liked you from your MS days, they may in turn know people who need an intern. Unexpected openings happen all the time...
 
So you are basically getting paid for several months of not working?
This is hard to believe. It makes me feel a bit more charitable toward your program director. I think I would have asked if I could do a research elective(s) and try to do a lateral run toward some type of IM or psych flavored research.

At this point, I think that you go for IM or fp, or psych if you want that.
You go with your old LOR's from 3rd/4th year IM clerkships, +/- a letter from a psych attending, plus maybe one from one of the pathology attendings (whichever one seems most friendly) just to say that you aren't a mean, psycho type person (one of the things that can really shoot down your application, regardless of board scores).

Personally, I would sign up for Findaresident on the NRMP web site. there are also sites like Openspots.com, but IMHO the same things are likely to be on Findaresident and I think it's cheaper. This way you can look for a spot before the Match process starts for next year. Since you apparently got an IM interview during the scramble, I'd write a nice letter to the PD there, stating you really liked the program, feel you'd be a good fit for IM, and if he has any spots open up, or hears of any at other programs, that you would love to hear about it. That's basically all you can do at this point.

I'd also be looking for a job - research or something in a hospital or clinic would be the best, but if you can't find that then any old job, plus volunteering at a hospital or something.

Now that I know more details of the situation, I agree that getting lawyer is unlikely to be helpful. You got paid even though they wouldn't let you work, and they "nonrenewed" your contract, rather than firing you on the spot. (technically). I don't think there would be much to be gained.
 
I actually did a clinical rotation for a few weeks before I realized that being at that hospital was too painful for me emotionally for several reasons citing they believed that the program structure or even pathology was not right for me. I realized that things could have been a lot worse. My program specifically mentioned doing what they did so finding a new residency would be "easier". Nonetheless, this has still been difficult for me. Suprisingly, I ran into one of my faculty members who offered to write me a letter of rec- it was not the strongest, but at least it painted me in a somewhat positive light. As to my personal issues that marred my performance, I do not think it will happen again. And I guess it will be up to me to prove that this was a one time incident.
 
Your PD is paying you, having you not come to work at all? That is quite amazing, in any field. Usually the contract allows for termination if your performance is significantly substandard.

Regardless, given the additional information, further advice:

1. Use your contacts. Are you crazy? If there is a PD out there who likes you, thinks you're good, then you should absolutely use those connections. What for? Read on...

2. Your primary long term goal, in all of this, is to convince a new PD that your poor performance in your path program was a one time fluke, that you have addressed your problem and that it won't be repeated. You haven't convinced me yet, nor did you convince the PD who interviewed you in the scramble. I get the sense you haven't convinced yourself yet -- and that's the first step.

3. You are still getting paid by your residency program. You probably still have a medical license (training license, etc). You probably still have MedMal coverage. Hence, your primary short term goal is to do a clinical rotation in something. Perhaps, a few different fields -- try out IM, psych, etc. If your home institution has these programs, you should be doing rotations in them NOW. You don't have much time left on your contract, and after that you're in a much worse spot.

4. You mention that you can't work at that hospital because of these emotional issues (my apologies if this is a gross misrepresentation of the facts, I understand your interest in keeping this private). This makes it a bit hard to believe that this issue you have is truly resolved. Regardless, if this is the case, have you considered doing an away rotation at one of the programs / PD's who know you? Again, you need to do so before your contract expires, when all of this magic (medmal, license, etc) will expire. Make this happen. Tomorrow.

5. A local mentor would help. You need to rescue your career. I'm honestly amazed that no one has helped you with this -- someone from the GME office perhaps.

6. Have you been evaluated by a physician for the "issues" you are having. I would highly recommend it.
 
aprog touched on this in the last post. I just wanted to comment that aside from the issue of what to do from here on (which as an MS4 I cannot offer you better advice than you have already received), is that before moving forward, you need to make sure that you're really better now. Life never gets any easier, and while you may have had the emotional shock of a lifetime (or whatever else it was that led to this), you will have more at some point.

Let me explain with a made-up example: You had a traumatic event, you weren't able to cope, it affected your performance. And now you lost your job due to some combination of the following events: you didn't proactively deal with it (tell your PD that it happened early on, request to take time off, establish effective coping mechanisms) and/or you let poor behaviors take hold (getting into arguments with coworkers because you were on edge, let your life get disordered/inefficient because you had a build up of anxiety, etc.) Now a few months have passed, your life is getting better, you're past the initial mourning period, you can work properly in a new job if you can get it. Are you ready to start a new residency and was that a fluke? No, you're not, and you haven't shown that you addressed the issue. The next time you hit a pothole, the same cycle of events will repeat; the traumatic event was not what cost you your position, it was how you responded to it.

My suggestion, find a good therapist/life coach/super-intuitive friend, and take stock of how you deal with stuff, figure out exactly what you could've done better, figure out exactly what behaviors to be careful of when you're under serious stress, figure out how to abort those behaviors before they do you ill. You don't need to tell jobs or your PD how you are doing this, you just need to let them know that you've learned enough so that this won't repeat.

I want you to really take heed of this. I've had my own difficulties, but fortunately, they happened early during my 3rd year, my school helped and coerced (at the time it felt like it was forced, but it wasn't in retrospect) me into really getting to the root of my behaviors surrounding my issue. And they did this at a point where it was not too late for irreperable damage. You're at this point too. At the time I was very angry at them for making me take extra time to deal with it. But this was very fortunate for me. If it had not been addressed, I am sure the issue would have come up again in residency where I might not have a PD on my side (though I suspect yours is), or even worse, happen after residency when I could lose my license or something. The underlying event was addressed early on. But it was the behaviors surrounding it that really needed the time off.
 
Good point.
Agree with APD and Rendar.
I agree the OP needs to try to do clinical rotation(s) or at least some kind of elective in IM or psych or peds before the year ends...it might be too late now, but he/she should try for at least a couple of weeks. But underlying emotional issue(s) need to be dealt with too.
 
I did a few rotations at my institution before the scramble to see if clinical medicine was really what I had wanted. Turns out that I really do enjoy clinical medicine, and that I should have gone into in the first place. I did talk to the GME director today, and I wanted to rectify my situation as to the details of situation. I was not "terminated" but rather had my contract "non-renewed" and apparently it was a mutual agreement to leave, which I did not know when I scrambled. Apparently it was an agreement between the GME director and my PD, they wanted to give me time to find another residency and thought that pulling me out would be in everyone's best interest. aProgdirector maybe could answer this question, what do you think it would take to convince a new PD that this is in the past and not reflective of me as a person? My guess is doing a rotation in clinical medicine and proving myself to someone.

Being retrospective this issue resulted in me losing my self confidence in my ability to perform adequately, caused me a lot of angst and grief, which had I dealt with earlier, I would not be in the situation in which I currently find myself.
 
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How would one typically go about setting up an away rotation? I believe my institution allows up to one month of training for the duration of residency training.
 
Why don't you phone the PD of the IM program where you interviewed recently, and see if you can rotate on one of the consult services. Services like endocrine and rheumatology tend to be pretty laid back. Even if you don't end up ever matching there, it would help to have the rotation on your resume. I know it would be high pressure perhaps (b/c would feel like you were on an audition the whole time) but you're kind of backed into a corner here.
 
Maybe, but you aren't a student now, so that might be a problem for places to take you on as an extern/4th year type. In fact, it likely will. They would be assuming liability risk (however small). You can try asking your med school for help, though not sure how helpful they will be now that you have graduated.

Maybe you can investigate some of those companies, etc. that set up FMG's to do observerships? It might at least be a way to make connections.

However, you really I think have to just apply like hell at any/all open IM or fp spots in any place you think you might be willing to go. The quicker, the better, IMHO.
 
You mean via ERAS? I'll apply very widely this year. Thankfully, the PD I interviewed with during the scramble really liked me personally. I just sent her an e-mail, and hopefully that will help open some doors.
 
Hello. I've been following this thread since January. I never posted anything before because I was hoping I wouldn't get terminated, but last week I got the awful news. Here's my story.

I am Caribbean grad recently terminated two weeks ago before completing my PGY-1 year in IM. In January I was called into the program director's office where he mentioned that he was concerned that I was staying late and my clinical judgement poor. He felt that I was not ready to progress to my PGY-2 year and wanted me to repeat my PGY-1 year. I guess he saw my anxiety and reassured me that I would have a job next year. After discussing this with him, I agreed that I had these deficiencies and thought repeating the year would be beneficial. He also mentioned that I would be continued to be monitored by the faculty and depending on their recommendation I would be promoted or not. Again he mentioned that I would have a job for next year. The program director then decided to leave the program after he was offered to be the program director of a new IM program. So our chief of medicine became the interm program director.

After that meeting, I worked as hard as I could. Asking attendings if they saw any deficiencies and making any necessary changes. I tried working faster and read more. I spoke to my residents to see if I could make any changes.

In February, I met with the chief of medicine/interm program director and he handed me a letter listing my deficiencies. The letter ended with a statement stating that if I failed to correct these deficiencies, I would be terminated from the program. I was very confused because I thought that my job secured and the question was there I would be promoted with my class or not.

I was very confused and frustrated. I was making the appropriate corrections. I was not staying as late and working more efficiently. I knew that I still had alot to improve, but I guess it wasn't enough. I spoke to a resident that I knew and worked with and he mentioned that other residents felt I was a hard worker and professional and that if asked by the program, the residents would support me. The attending who I worked with for 1 week, felt that during that time, he did not get a sense that my medical knowledge was severely lacking.

So I continued to work harder, coming in early and trying to get feedback from residents and attendings. I attempted to make as many corrections to deficiencies that I could.

Finaly two weeks ago, I was to meet with the interm program director for my annual review. I got a sense something was wrong when the GME director was also present at the meeting. That was when he handed me the letter of termination. I told him that the prior program director told me that my position was secured and likely I would be repeating my PGY-1 year. Then I asked him what changed, he mentioned that the faculty felt my clinical judgement was poor and that I was not working efficiently. I guess I should also mention that during this time, none of my patients were ever harmed by my actions. I got along well with private attendings and specialized attendings.

I was not angry or shocked when this happened. I guess I had a sense this was coming. When I first met the interm program director in Febrary and got the probation letter, the letter mentioned so many deficiencies that I felt that the program was looking to terminate me and now they were looking for evidence to support termination. What did upset me was that after I got the termination letter, the program wanted me to leave the hospital as quickly as possible. The GME director immediately took my pager and ID, went with me to the resident's lounge to help with cleaning my locker. When I asked her if I could speak to the chief residents to discuss this and what I should do next, she just mentioned that being terminated was a lot to take in and I should go home and think. If I wish to call the chiefs I could do it later. I told her I would really like to speak to the chiefs, she stated "with all due respect, you've just been terminated" and then gave me a look, which I interpreted as "you've just been terminated and now need to leave the hospital grounds". She then walked me off the hospital grounds. I felt so insulted. I worked faithfully and treated my patients, colleagues, and staff with the highest professionalism since I started my residency last year. And on the day I was terminated they felt the need to escort me out the hospital.

I do not deny that I have the deficiencies mentioned and I do agree that repeating my PGY-1 year would be good for me. I just don't understand what my attendings saw in me that made them feel I should be terminated. During my time, I did not harm any of my patients. I treat everyone with great professionalism. I was liked by the private attendings and specialists. I know I need to work more efficiently. And I am reading when I am at home. I felt that my deficiencies are correctable.

Now I am unlikely to continue with medicine. I spent the last two weeks thinking of what I should do next and preparing my resume. I am planning to look for jobs in consulting (I read that they are looking for people with analytical skills and are open to people to advanced professional degrees) or pharmaceutical research (I worked as a research technician for several years prior to entering med school) or possibly teaching biology at a community college. I was also thinking of reapplying to another program, but was concerned that if I get terminated I would have wasted another year.

I just wanted to share my story. Thank you for reading.


wow that is such a slap in the face!
 
This thread reminds me: whatever happened to Doowai?
 
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