Terminating residents

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I appreciate the advice, I take all opinions seriously. Unfortunately unsold home statistics don't support this at all and for now we need to fight for the position. It is a journey that is just beginning and we don't know where it will lead but for now we are confident that appealing it is the correct thing to do.

Terminated,

I'm not even a resident, so perhaps this viewpoint is worthless, but it's my impression that if a PD has taken a very strong disliking to you (which I think is the case, given his/her trying to push you out), it's really hard to change his/her agenda by appealing. In fact, resisting might only further piss him/her off, so that he/she will be determined to ruin you in the next 'round'. It sounds like residents really are at the mercy of the PD and even if you were to get another year, he/she would focus on you, looking for every possible excuse to knock you out. It might be wiser to be compliant and try to secure a residency in another specialty in the same area, or actually talk to the PD directly, explain your goals and situation and ask for another chance. Trying to go over the PD by appeal is unlikely to have a long-term positive outcome since he/she still has power over you in the next two years.

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I agree with dragonfy and mercapto.

Regardless of whatever reason they've given you, the handwriting is on the wall that you are not wanted there. Its like the excuses you're given during a break-up when the SO is sort of a nice person and doesn't really want to hurt you.

One last discussion with the PD and perhaps some faculty members who support you is in order, but an official appeal is unlikely to work and will only force (if successful) the program into a situation where they will look for (and document heavily) any reason to fire you. Let them know that you are very happy with your training and would like to stay and are willing to work on any problems they have with you. But if they still balk, ask if it would be an option to resign rather than being terminated. Do not walk out/burn any bridges as you will need letters of support for other programs.
 
The ACGME requirement is interesting... I had thought it was 90 days so thought that the program just made the notice of non-renewal in time. The R-1 year ends on June 30 so technically the notice would have had to be filed at the end of Feb. That is powerful information...

First, this is not necessarily helpful information. The ACGME requires 4 months notice, but exceptions can be made. Even if they give you three months notice, all they would be "guilty" of is an ACGME rule violation, which MIGHT get them in trouble in their next site visit. From a legal standpoint, it depends what your contract says. It probably has a 90 day clause in it.

Even if they want to be compliant with the 120 day rule, they can simply decide to not promote you to the PGY-2 level, extend your training for 2 months, and then terminate you.

As others have mentioned, this is likely to be an uphill battle and you will need to decide what you want to do. If your performance has in fact been fine, and they were planning on promoting you to the PGY-2 level, and are simply letting you go because you are "unhappy" there -- then something is wrong. Either you don't fully understand the situation (i.e. your performance is not satisfactory) or you have simply pissed someone important off such that they are getting rid of you to simplify their life, or they want to get someone else into the program (i.e. someone with connections) and so they are getting rid of someone. The first is completely legal and (perhaps) appropriate if true. The second is questionable but could fall under the rubric of professionalism. The last is completely ridiculous, but probably happens.

Much of whether an appeal will be helpful depends upon your institution and your PD. If the GME office is powerful / well respected / run well, then they will investigate your complaints for merit. If they agree with you and essentially "force" your PD to reverse their decision, then it depends on whether they take that well (as a learning experience) or poorly. As you can see, you'll need both -- a reasonable GME system and an understanding PD. Honestly, if you have the latter, you can probably resolve this by meeting with them (again assuming your performance is not the problem).

An appeal via HR will be useless. You have a 1 year contract. They did not decide to extend it. I doubt HR will help at all, unless we are talking about sexual harrassment / discrimination or something like that.

You mentioned a "personality issue" in your original post. I fully understand your hesitancy in posting the details in this public forum. If you'd like to PM me, I'd be happy to try to help.
 
I agree with dragonfy and mercapto.

Regardless of whatever reason they've given you, the handwriting is on the wall that you are not wanted there. Its like the excuses you're given during a break-up when the SO is sort of a nice person and doesn't really want to hurt you.

One last discussion with the PD and perhaps some faculty members who support you is in order, but an official appeal is unlikely to work and will only force (if successful) the program into a situation where they will look for (and document heavily) any reason to fire you. Let them know that you are very happy with your training and would like to stay and are willing to work on any problems they have with you. But if they still balk, ask if it would be an option to resign rather than being terminated. Do not walk out/burn any bridges as you will need letters of support for other programs.


Great advice.

Cambie
 
Yeah, you had better listen to these attendings.

I don't see that anything good is going to come out of appealing. You have maybe 1% chance of a good outcome, and 99% chance for it to go bad. Can't you rent out your house, or bail and let you family stay living there, and rent out a place in someone else's house at a new residency until your family can sell the house and join you? You have to realize you are in a terrible situation and if you ever want to practice medicine in the US, you had better do something ASAP to get yourself out of it. Personally, I'd go to the PD and grovel and see if they will keep you on, since it seems in your personal situation it will be very hard for you to move. Maybe you could just switch specialties within your hospital, or in the same city where you live now but at a different program.
 
Just by way of brainstorming, your only three options aren't

* transfer to another residency, which you've so far ruled out because of geography, but you should still want to think about
* go all in to try to stay there, and if this doesn't work probably consign yourself to the next option
* give up forever.

You could also complete your present tenure with your present institution as obligingly and professionally as possible, then spend the next year, at least, going a year at a time, on something besides a medical residency that could still keep you close to the game. You could take another degree - public health? administration? education? - you could research, you could do something relevant but non-clinical.

This could also give you some advantage from time. Things change over time. The real estate market will change, that's what it does! Your present institution might even look into reconciling. There are many things that can change on their own given time, a few things you can change, and a few things you absolutely can't change. Bad blood, beyond a certain small threshold, usually falls in the third class. Do all you can to avoid it.
 
You could also complete your present tenure with your present institution as obligingly and professionally as possible, then spend the next year, at least, going a year at a time, on something besides a medical residency that could still keep you close to the game. You could take another degree - public health? administration? education?
Is this really feasible for the AMG who has $200k in loans? I mean, where is this education money going to come from? Isn't there an upper limit on federal student loans? Oh, that one could really go to school forever!

I've been unemployed now since I was terminated in December. Good luck finding a job in this climate. I hear it's warm in Mississippi all year round, I think maybe there's an interstate bridge with my name on it, under which I'll be moving. I mustn't forget the spray paint!
 
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I grew up in DC and in the early 1980's the economy really stank. Everyone at my high school had to take an ethics class and during this class we had to go down to the soup kitchen on a couple of different Saturday mornings and donate time serving the homeless.

Someone pointed out a curiosity, a homeless guy who ate there who was supposedly a doctor. It was interesting, he just looked like any other of the homeless. I wondered what could have happened. I just figured maybe he had come down with schizophrenia or something. Even though drug abuse was common then, for example I used to see people shooting up heroin in the morning when I changed busses at the corner of Florida Avenue and North Capitol Street, it never crossed my mind that he might have had his hand in the drug box or something.

But now I know a new way to end up homeless as a doctor... just get terminated as a resident in this economy.
 
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Hi everyone,

There is an epidemic rampant in the US residency system - whimsical evaluations based on personal tastes/ distastes with rampantly prevelant biased evaluations and firings/ non-renewals.
The US which has the best and most professional work environment in various fields, has a very medeival and unprofessional medical residency system. A biased attending or Program Director can whimsically manipulate evaluation of residents whom he dosen't like - and label them as incompetent duffers. If this resident seeks to start a new beginning in some other program, even then the initial PD must "certify" the resident's competence! The prospective hiring director will depend on this biased PD's "confidential report" rather than on his own perception of the applicant's competence/ eagerness to train.
What is the way to end this abuse and sadism?
I am not exactly sure of the course of events reg. the duty hours rule, but this is what I heard: The relative of a New York politician/ Senator died because of inadequate medical care provided by a resident - the resident responded that he worked 100+ hours that week and asked how he as a human could be expected to deliver good care at that rate - this prompted a hue and cry for humane duty work hours which are fixed at 80 hours per week now. This shows us that abuse in many ways is very very much prevelant - ALL OF US SHOULD REALIZE THAT ABUSE, WHIMSICAL ATTITUDE IS VERY MUCH PREVELENT IN RESIDENCY SYSTEM AND THAT WE SHOULD DO SOMETHING TO FIGHT IT - MEDICAL RESIDENCY is supposed to be a TRAINING PROCESS, not a CHEAP LABOR service driven by "WHIMSICAL slave drivers".

I am pained to see so many eager hardworking residents terminated for whimsical reasons - TO UNDERSTAND THEIR SITUATION, PLEASE IMAGINE YOURSELF IN THEIR POSITION !!!
 
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In this forum, i find that many attendings and residents who are doing well are contesting and ridiculing the points of view of terminated residents/ residents in trouble.
This is a very mean attitude doctors! Those who have crossed the bridge should be thankful for their good fortune, and not ridicule those who are in trouble. Why? because most of these residents in trouble are as good as you in their subject/ knowledge. They are most likely suffering because of bias/ personal dislikes of their directors/ attendings.
remember, if you do not fight injustice, it has the nasty tendency of recurring. You might not face whimsical firings in residency, but your kids might face it as residents! To solve a problem, it has to be understood first.
 
I posted this in another thread but since I didn't get any responses I'm posting it here.

So I just found out about a resident who was recently convicted of "pandering obscenity" which happens to be a fifth-degree felony in this state. I can't describe more because I don't want to reveal person's identity. Person went before a judge and was found guilty. Person's medical license has been suspended and the medical board is determining whether to revoke it. I believe person has been let go from residency since license is suspended.

So question is, is there any chance of this person resuming a clinical career? If not, is there any chance of this person finding a job in industry such as drug rep? What types of jobs are available to people who lose their licenses due to felony convictions?
 
wow, Taurus...just wow.
What the heck is "pandering obscenity"? Is that hiring a hooker? Or is that some sort of pedophilia related thing?
I think this person is screwed as far as ever getting another residency. I mean, they all do background checks now.
I don't see why, in theory, he couldn't get a job as a drug rep...I guess the pharm. companies can hire whomever they want, right? They probably don't do a lot of background checking, but I don't really know. I'm sure he'll get asked why he left residency.

Damn. That was huge mistake. Huge. I hope it's not you :xf:
 
There is an epidemic rampant in the US residency system - whimsical evaluations based on personal tastes/ distastes with rampantly prevelant biased evaluations and firings/ non-renewals.

This is a very complicated situation. Clearly, we need a system that:

1) Trains residents to be independent practitioners
2) Assesses their competence to practice medicine
3) Protects the public, by preventing anyone incompetent from practicing, and
4) Protects the residents, by having the system fair and transparent.

The core problem is that there is no objective standard for competence in medicine. And there won't be. It's not passing Step 3 or whatever board exam you might have to take. There is no clinical difference between the maximum failing score (i.e. 181) and the minimum passing score (i.e. 182).

Competence is a complex, non-linear quality that defies objective measurement, so we are left with written evaluations by superiors and peers (and others). But these are subject to bias, in both directions. I have seen terrible residents (IMHO) get glowing evaluations also.

Competence is a spectrum. Exactly how "incompetent" do you need to be to not be allowed to practice?

Someone needs to be accountable to decide who is competent and who is not. This is naturally going to fall to PD's. Although some programs may use a committee, they are likely to be highly swayed by the PD's opinion, and this is unrealistic for the many small programs out there.

If a resident "fails out" of a program and wants to move to another, there has to be a way of communicating what went wrong. Else, incompetent residents will tend to trickle through the system, passed from program to program, until they graduate (still incompetent). We have seen this with the clergy abuse scandal, nurses who kill patients, etc. Passing problems off to someone else without warning is bad.

What we do need is some sort of independent appeal system. However, even this is difficult. Many of these problems come down to he said / she said problems. Most residents I have worked with who are incompetent are not "incompetent all of the time" -- those people fail out quickly and painfully. The more likely scenario is someone who can handle 80% of the workload -- i.e. handles basic patients fine, but complex patients are a problem. They are likely to have many good evaluations along with their concerning ones. How is someone completely independent supposed to evaluate this? Who would pay for all this (as I'm sure it would be used quite frequently)?

I don't have any easy answers. If it makes it any better, telling a resident that they are not meeting standards is one of the worst things I have to do.

So question is, is there any chance of this person resuming a clinical career? If not, is there any chance of this person finding a job in industry such as drug rep? What types of jobs are available to people who lose their licenses due to felony convictions?

They will not be able to get a residency until their license is restored. This could be via 1) the BOM of that state reinstating their license, or 2) moving to another state and trying to get a license there. #2 would of course require disclosing the problems in the prior state, but there may be some states where you don't need a training license at all. This might allow the person to generate additional training and time to keep their nose clean, which would help all around.

Of course, the second challenge is to get a PD to accept them back. Perhaps if their performance was otherwise fine, someone will be willing to take them on with some sort of "ethical training" added on top. Again, focusing on states without training licenses / permits might be the easiest way to go.

I expect they will find problems everywhere. I doubt drug companies are going to want someone with a felony as their spokesperson.

Without knowing the details, it sounds like this person has a big personal problem to deal with. Although I can understand how someone might get drunk and do something stupid once, and that might not be a sign of a big problem, pandering obscenity sounds like a big problem. I guess someone could video their GF/BF naked, break up, and then try to sell the video online. Anyway, my point is this person should deal with their problem first.
 
wow, Taurus...just wow.
What the heck is "pandering obscenity"? Is that hiring a hooker? Or is that some sort of pedophilia related thing?
I think this person is screwed as far as ever getting another residency. I mean, they all do background checks now.
I don't see why, in theory, he couldn't get a job as a drug rep...I guess the pharm. companies can hire whomever they want, right? They probably don't do a lot of background checking, but I don't really know. I'm sure he'll get asked why he left residency.

Damn. That was huge mistake. Huge. I hope it's not you :xf:

No, it's not me. This person basically committed a lewd act in front of others. It's rather unfortunate that this person had a career cut so short.
 
Oh I knew it wasn't you, Taurus.
Guess I shouldn't have made light of the situation...I'm sure it isn't funny for this person.
This episode shows how we physicians are held to different standards than a lot of other people. We don't have much margin for error in our personal behavior. We are expected to uphold higher standards than the average Joe out there on the street...and perhaps that is a good thing, for the most part.

ADP, agree with you in general about there being no objective standard for competency in residency (and the impossibility of ever creating one). People get fired from many different jobs and educational programs for various reasons. I think the thing that is different about the residency training system, as opposed to almost all other systems of training, is that once a resident is fired or leaves one place, he/she is almost completely hosed as far as ever getting another residency. That is the part that seems wrong to me. In pretty much every other occupation, there are people who got canned from one job and then went on to brilliant success somewhere else. In the case of medical residents it seems that the former program (particularyl the PD) often "black balls" the former resident in such a way that the person can never, ever work in medicine again. And I think people get fired for a lot of reasons other than being incompetent...there are quite a few clinically crappy residents who never get canned, because they have a personality that their program director likes.
 
The core problem is that there is no objective standard for competence in medicine. And there won't be. It's not passing Step 3 or whatever board exam you might have to take. There is no clinical difference between the maximum failing score (i.e. 181) and the minimum passing score (i.e. 182).

Competence is a spectrum.

The more likely scenario is someone who can handle 80% of the workload -- i.e. handles basic patients fine, but complex patients are a problem.

I would disagree that there is or can not ever be a practically objective way to assess competence. (Sure I would agree that you can't have a 100% assessment of competence, but you can try). Take board examinations, say someone has failed Step 1 or perhaps has a history of failing examinations, the students who I have seen do this really didn't care about studying on a particular clerkship and were grossly "incompetent" when it came to their clinical work on such a rotation.

The computer based examinations are a good start to assessing competence, say you make Step 3 a three day examination with 1000 different case scenarios, say someone gets a high score, I would be less concerned about him/her than someone who failed the examination. Why? Because from my experience board examinations test info that you must know *cold* to practice medicine and the "zebra" questions can be answered if you do your reading.

While not perfect, doing well shows that you are studying hard and trying your best to be competent.

I have seen a student who failed a clerkship in medical school because she didn't study hard for the shelf examination and failed, but everyone loved her "game face" personality, and when her superiors weren't around she didn't care the least bit about patient care or learning on the clerkship. So Yes, written standardized tests help weed out the students/residents who just smooze their way through.

APD is correct that there is a spectrum of "competence", but the sticker is that nobody is 100% competent, few to none are even 95% competent when looking at attendings and residents. Why? Because medicine is vast, and nobody handles a complex patient perfectly or even in the same manner amoung experienced attendings.

But are attendings more competent than residents? Don't laugh! There was a study done which showed that for each year out of residency training most physicians by far become *less* competent, in terms of increasing patient mortality, I think it was one percent a year for each year out of training. Why? Because attendings haven't been keeping up with advances and have become complacent.

I was a student on my medicine rotation when I was surprised that the PD did not know the correct test for diagnosing a specific type of cancer (which we then ordered after I showed the paper) and didn't know the latest information about treating a common acute GI problem. Sure the PD was way more proficient than me in other types of management, but in certain areas EVERYBODY has "incompetence" and must rely on the expertise/input of even practicioners in the same field.

Because residency training = good, and being out of residency training = bad, I would conclude that someone who did a second residency is actually pretty well trained!

I think that the "incompetent" residents have issues with those who hold power over them, . . . I have seen everybody on my medicine SubI be incompetent in terms of not being concientious in followup to not explaining care well to not ordering the right test to having a bad attitude, there was a study that showed that attendings themselves make something like 2 major mistakes a day or week or something like that . . . it is inevitable sadly, but we must all view ourselves as incompetent and strive to do better.

Medical training isn't that you reach a point where you will always be "incompetent", but students and residents are labeled this, but in the end everyone is "incompetent" to one degree or another and I think that PDs and attendings are more incompetent than they may realize.

This is why avoiding nasty personalities is important in medicine as everybody is incompetent, and if an attending you don't like crosses your path they can magnify and distort the learning process into gross incompetency. Also, because attendings knowledge may be very dated, they may not understand that their practice of medicine is "incompetent", not the resident.

I have seen residents who were labeled "incompetent" and they really took a beating for it, and everybody didn't like them, and you could tell that interferred with their educational process, in the end I had to really ask myself if the criticism on such and such a day was valid, or whether or not the PD/attendings were just engaged in their usual sport of tearing down such and such a resident. In the end it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The best residency programs are like a community/family where everybody realizes that everybody else is learning/still learning and effort is made to help a resident who approached the management wrong in one case.

I think a bad program is when a PD calls a resident into the office to tell them how "incompetent" they are over the past three months. Does make much sense that the PD/attending didn't do their job over three months and let it slide that a resident didn't know how to do a procedure correctly or something. (I am saying incompetent, not negligence of duty which is different, but should also be corrected early on). Most residents want to learn to do things better if taught properly rather than in a punitive/humiliating manner.

In the best programs they will tell you that they will "stick with you" during training, this helps. An out of the blue "You are incompetent speach" is evidence that the PD wasn't there during the educational process.

In the end I think it is great that residents can switch residencies after being labeled incompetent somewhere as yes, often this judgment is biased and as they accumulate more knowledge they can become "less incompetent", if that problem ever really existed.

The only resident on medicine who ever questioned my medical student "competence" also noted my vast medical knowledge (their words not mine, I put in the work studying, they didn't and went to bars) and hardwork with patients and grudingly recognized my good skills and gave me a good eval even though he/she didn't personally like me. This resident didn't make chief, didn't do a fellowship and wanted to get a 9 to 5 ambulatory meidicine job and had a nasty personality against people of the opposite sex in medicine. Point being that your superiors evaluating you as a student/resident usually don't take their job that seriously compared to patient care and can be swayed to say and do mean things to you on a whim. Attendings and residents are usually overwhelmed by their egos and feel that their vague subjective feelings about someone actually means something in terms of competence in grey area cases.

I think that more standardized testing and education during residency is documentation that you are learning what you need to learn in terms of "complex cases" where 10 different internists might approach the problem differenty 10 different ways.

And yes, there may be a difference between a 182 and a 181, a small microscopic difference which becomes visible if you look at thousands of residents with this score and perhaps the ones with 182 are slightly better than the ones with 181. At any rate there sure is a difference between everybody who failed and everybody who passed on the scale of thousands of step 1/2/3 test takers.
 
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People get fired from many different jobs and educational programs for various reasons. I think the thing that is different about the residency training system, as opposed to almost all other systems of training, is that once a resident is fired or leaves one place, he/she is almost completely hosed as far as ever getting another residency. That is the part that seems wrong to me. In pretty much every other occupation, there are people who got canned from one job and then went on to brilliant success somewhere else. In the case of medical residents it seems that the former program (particularyl the PD) often "black balls" the former resident in such a way that the person can never, ever work in medicine again. And I think people get fired for a lot of reasons other than being incompetent...there are quite a few clinically crappy residents who never get canned, because they have a personality that their program director likes.

I would agree with this, residents get fired for a lot of other problems than "incompetency", because there are a lot of big egos in medicine and the resident who steps on a PD's toes or who for perhaps even subconcious reasons the PD/attendings don't like can get intwined in a hostile work environment and the only solution in the real world would be to quit and go to another job.

I feel there should be a way for fired residents to get another residency and start fresh. It is illogical that APD feels that old comments should follow the resident, if the resident is judged as doing well, over say a three year residency elsewhere, then APD is saying that the old comments are somehow more valid i.e. that the new residency program doens't "know what is going on". This doesn't make sense as one would have to assume that the new residency program evaluated the resident fairly under their rules. This is just the old PD holding a grudge against the resident and wanting to scar them for life.

If a resident does well in a new program then the proof of the pudding is in the eating and they are NOT secretly incompetent as APD suggests.
 
It is really a saving grace that understanding directors such as "aprogramdirector" traverse these forums. He has been taking the time to visit these forums and understand the problems and points of view of various residents/ trainees especially those in trouble. Keep up the good work, Sir.
It is about time that he and other directors and attendings from various programs across various specialties get together for a work shop and try to work towards a solution for getting residency to be what it should be: a post-graduate training process with objective evaluations, with emphasis on standardized tests throughout the 3 years of residency.
 
Let me talk about residency systems in other countries: Positives aspects there could give clues for improving/ reforming the residency system in US.

I am originally from India, and did my medical schooling there. The residency system is as follows in India:

Once a PGY resident joins a residency program, he is "assured" of his position for the entire 3 years or 5 years etc., depending on specialty - which means that he cannot be fired except on serious moral or criminally gross medical negligence grounds.

So what does this mean?? This means that the resident should perform satisfactorily during his residency AND during the final board exam (conducted by external examiners who do not know the candidate, this exam is held prior to graduating in PGY3) to PASS/COMPLETE his residency training and gain the board certification/ degree. This ALSO means that a residency program has the responsibility of ensuring that this resident competently finishes his training - the program can prolong his residency training till say he has 36 successful months necessary to graduate ( he could end up doing 3 yrs 6 months instead of 3 years), but cannot fire him for incompetency (except criminally gross medical negligence).

The resident is paid monthly stipend for the originally stipulated duration (3 years or 5 years etc., depending on his specialty), and any extra duration (remediation period) that he or she needs to complete the residency is not paid any stipend.

So, in this way the program is forced to honor it's training commitment, and cannot take the easy way out by firing a "problem resident". The program is forced to train/ extra-train the problem resident so as to ensure that he finishes the 36 month training duration which is necessary for graduation. This ensures that the program is forced to investigate exactly why the resident has "competency problems" and also makes the program and resident sit together and devise solutions to overcome the competency problems. All these safeguards greatly reduce the prevalence of "whimsical evaluations/ behavior".

Now if the resident passes the first requirement (36 month duration), he still needs to pass the theory and practical components of OBJECTIVE EXTERNAL EXAMINERS appointed by the board. These examiners do not know the candidate except by Identification numbers, and have never had any personal interaction with him - eliminating/ limiting the chance of personal bias - difficult for the PGY resident to complain about "bias" if he fails in the exam.

So in summary, the PGY resident knows that he has to WORK and be COMPETENT to pass the rotations and the final exam. He knows that if his duration is extended, he will not get pay for the remediation months. He will pass only when he is deemed competent - it could take 5 years for his originally 3 year residency to be completed! But the PGY resident is also "assured" that he will not be thrown out onto the street because of personal bias or rivalries - his mind only has to worry about improving his competence, and not about the grave uncertainty faced by residents of the US medical system (regarding complete termination of their medical career) regarding their postion/ personal bias/ whims of attendings.

Despite India being behind the US in terms of medical technology and sophistication, I think that the positives of this system,(originally inspired by the British model) need to be seriously considered while trying to reform the US medical residency system - which is surprisingly , yet seriously stuck up in the rut of whimsical evaluations, lack of adequate responsibilty/ haughty attitude on the part of the residency program faculty, and prospects of permanent termination of careers for the so called "incompetent" residents (most likely victims of bias).

Look forward to your comments and feedback..
 
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This is a very complicated situation. Clearly, we need a system that:

1) Trains residents to be independent practitioners
2) Assesses their competence to practice medicine
3) Protects the public, by preventing anyone incompetent from practicing, and
4) Protects the residents, by having the system fair and transparent.

Agree with #1 and #4. IMHO #2 and #3 are a complete farce in today's medical environment. PAs and NPs are being churned out at a record pace and there is minimal scrutiny of their "competence". Many NPs now practice independently and I do not see how the public is being protected from incompetent NP grads. PAs often basically get on the job training from what I have seen. They are usually allowed to see patients while this on the job training occurs. I see a huge double standard regarding the assessment of residents and the assessment of NPs/PAs regarding the "competence" to practice issue. I learned far more after going out into practice than I ever learned in residency.
 
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Despite India being behind the US in terms of medical technology and sophistication, I think that the positives of this system,(originally inspired by the British model) need to be seriously considered while trying to reform the US medical residency system - which is surprisingly , yet seriously stuck up in the rut of whimsical evaluations, lack of adequate responsibilty/ haughty attitude on the part of the residency program faculty, and prospects of permanent termination of careers for the so called "incompetent" residents (most likely victims of bias).

Look forward to your comments and feedback..

That was a really great perspective, thank you for posting it. I have worked with many Indian residents, i.e. from Indian medical schools and with Indian attendings, some of whom did a residency in India before doing another one in the U.S. There are many who are excellent teachers and physicians, and it always seemed to me that the Indian (or British?) system is much more geared to educating residents physicians in a courteous environment. It always seemed to me that for the most part, Indian residents seemed much more relaxed and friendly.

Maybe this is because in the U.S. system we have daily witch hunts where attendings attack residents and on some rotations in medical school everybody lives in fear.

I vote for the Indian or British system!
 
memberkane
that is really interesting.
I have a Pakistani friend who described the med schools in Pakistan similarly...he basically said you can do med school in 5 years, 6 years, even 7 years. You basically have to pass comprehensive exams at the end, and if you do not pass you have to repeat the year (or just certain clinical rotations?) until you can show you are competent. The students are examined by a board/group of professors at the end of their clinical rotation(s). It actually makes sense, because I think there are situations and there are students who make take longer to learn a certain thing than others. And then some just have a better educational background, or might be more mature, or just smarter. Here in the US in med school it is hard for schools to figure out what to do with students who aren't doing so well...either they just pass them on, kick them out or sometimes they do have them repeat a year, but since the tuition is astronomical that is a big problem for the student.

I wonder in the Indian residency system, what happens if you do have a really bad resident. I mean somebody who is just lazy, or doesn't get things, or has a really bad personality. It seems like there would be no way to get rid of the person. Surely it does happen occasionally? Do residents in India ever switch specialties or switch training programs (i.e. move from one hospital to another, but in the same specialty, at PGY2 or 3 level as happens in the US sometimes).
 
What exactly is meant by "lazy" in the context of a resident? I would think a resident would have to get through the patient H&P and formulate a treatment plan, consult with the attending, document, and move on. Where's the place for laziness here? Is it that the resident is slow in going through patients (because that doesn't seem like laziness to me, you could just be thorough)? Is it sloppy H&P's and lazy formulation of diagnosis and treatment? Is it arriving half an hour late every day and not being entirely conscientious about patients late in the day?
 
No, I do not mean being slow and overly thorough...I personally have been accused of that (and probably was true, at least when I was an intern) but NEVER of being lazy.

There ARE lazy residents. There are people who habitually do the minimum amount of work required, and tend to turf work to others (either cointern, or, when they become residents, habitually dump on the interns). There are people who honestly don't bother to think very hard, because, well, they don't care about their patients THAT much, and just can't be bothered. I'm not saying that these types always get bad evals...I've seen them skate by with good, or even great evals in some cases, especially if they are smart but lazy.

As far as memberkane's most recent post, I was thinking about it and I have trouble imagining how it would be possible to make US residents work without being paid. I'm not even sure it would be legal. For example, social security taxes are taken out of residents' salaries, and residents receive health insurance and other benefits. Providing those benefits costs the hospital money, and it probably wouldn't be willing to foot the bill for those for a resident who isn't being paid...it would be very complicated to try to figure the logistics out. Most residents wouldn't be able to make it without a paycheck, either, due to the large student loans they have...well, I guess they could just go into forbearance for 6 months if training got extended....it is an interesting idea, though.
 
memberkane,
if a resident in India has training extended by 6 months, is this seen as a huge black mark on his/her record, such that getting a job would be hard, and getting a fellowship impossible? In the US, that is sort of the case. I mean, often they still get a job, but it definitely can be harmful and it's always obvious who had to spend extra time because they graduate/finish off cycle.
 
...to work towards a solution for getting residency to be what it should be: a post-graduate training process with objective evaluations, with emphasis on standardized tests throughout the 3 years of residency.

Thanks for the nice complement. However, I think you might have misinterpreted my statement above. I do not think that more standardized tests in residency will be helpful -- multiple choice questions can only test medical knowledge, not the actual delivery of patient care -- and there is no objective way to measure that IMHO.

As for comparing US and Indian training systems:

1. I do like the idea that programs have a commitment to trainees. However, as DF points out, it is illegal in the US to have someone work without being paid. In addition, if I had to keep extending training, at some point I'm just going to graduate someone to get them out of my program, even if I think they are not good. As suggested, this sort of system can breed mediocrity, or even sloth. Many gov't agencies are perceived to be ineffective for this exact reason -- once in, no one gets fired no matter how slow / useless they are.

2. However, I think that some commitment between program and learner is necessary. It would be nice to see programs held to a standard of helping their residents who leave to get a new spot -- not by "covering things up" but by helping them find a fresh start. My experience is that very few residents are truly incompetent -- some just need a different program, or a different field, to bloom.

3. There is no such thing as "objective evaluation by outside experts". This has been tried in the US and has been a failure each time. Most boards had oral exams, and removed them when they found the same shenanigans of whimsical evaluations. Actually, the "best" structured, objective measure of clinical care is Step 2 CS -- it's truly as objective as you can get -- and we all know how well that has worked out.
 
I do not think that more standardized tests in residency will be helpful -- multiple choice questions can only test medical knowledge, not the actual delivery of patient care

However, I think that some commitment between program and learner is necessary. It would be nice to see programs held to a standard of helping their residents who leave to get a new spot -- not by "covering things up" but by helping them find a fresh start. My experience is that very few residents are truly incompetent -- some just need a different program, or a different field, to bloom.

There are newer computer based examinations that do test clinical decision making, like Step 3, . . . what I would suggest is weekly such sessions AND the program directors/attendings could "make up" scenarios based on what a resident did wrong 3 months ago and see if they remembered. I know one PD who sort of does this.

I was very averse to standardized patient encounters and training with "dummies" until I saw how advanced these can be AND some residency programs are using these to supplement resident education, there being less hours during residency which I think is a very real issue.

Although I passed Step 2 CS on the first try, and so don't have a bone to pick about it being "unfair", I did study very hard for this examination sort of thinking I would fail and learned so much stuff that I didn't know that it was scary! (And I did get 99 on Step 2 CK and having been reading medical journals the past three years +), . . .

So, I think if there was an advanced Step 2 CS offered by residency programs, maybe monthly, that was then reviewed with preceptors i.e. attendings, then this would be a better learning situation as no real lives were in danger and this takes out some of the ego and fear of the real clinical situation and makes feedback easier to give.

Most of the feedback I have been given in a clinical setting has been very unspecific, and is therefore unhelpful. Say I get an evaluation form back that has "average" history taking skills. What does this mean? We all know how to do a full an complete history, which would take at least 45 minutes, but if we are admitting patients more quickly then what are the right questions to ask? Did I miss an important question? As a student if I forgot to say ask a specific question, like "You didn't ask about past antibiotic use in the past month, which the patient may have discontinued", then a light goes on in my head, and I sure haven't forgotten any of those "pearls", and likewise when I teach students then I would politley remind them and even tell them how I made the same mistake.

I think is how evaluations should be, timely, specific and helpful. We have all been on a rotation and been yelled at and realizes that an attending "doesn't like us", and we may get a mediocre evaluation, but never get any specific comments. Even such vague comments and just being "satisfactory" in history taking don't help as we can't remember exactly what went wrong.

If evaluations were more timely and more specific then residents would be able to learn better, but currently evaluations are sporadic, maybe just at the end of a rotation block so nobody knows what is going on. I think this is the big problem as attendings sit back and watch med students and residents make mistake or at least approach things inefficiently or incorrectly and then give a bad or mediocre written eval months late, sure we may be "judged" correctly, but that is all the attending is, a judge and not a teacher . . .

While the Indian/British system has its drawbacks, it would sure motivate "lazy" attendings who don't teach and just judge or evaluate without feedback and without taking any responsibility that if they see an underperforming resident then they need to make specific comments and to impart their knowledge. This would force attendings to teach med students/residents they don't like. I have taught medical students in a nice and thorough way whom I personally didn't care for, i.e. inappropriate jokes or something, and I thought it was my duty as they would be physicians one day, and surprisingly they become more "nice" or at least more like me so I actually liked them. Most attendings have students they don't like and refuse in a way to teach them and then give them bad evals.

I have been in the position of teaching medical students, and taught students in other situations as well. There is a difference between a value judgment and a specific appropriate criticism, one wears you down and the other is an exciting piece of useful information. When I slip and make a value judgment, which rarely happens, then the student doctor will lose interest and understanding, and perhaps rightly so.

For example: Value Judgment: "You aren't following up enough on your patients." Nonspecific, just a sort of "you suck" comment.

Specific Criticism: "Make sure to review the lab values before you round each day as things can change quickly and we want to make sure we have up to date information about our patients." This lets the student in on the interesting aspects of patient care and makes learning medicine more patient focused than on complaints about a person's personality or even appearance.

Sometimes if someone tells you to "follow up better the patients" you figure out what to do differently, but other times you pour your resources into doing things that waste your time and don't improve your performance.

Many attendings apparently didn't go into medicine in part to educate patients or subordinates, as evidenced by lack of teaching, learning via osmosis, and no attention to giving real feedback in a nice manner, which is an important part of teaching patients and teaching residents. So, really, as I look as being a doctor as it being important to educate people, i.e. patients and students, then when I see an attending who really doesn't care about the teaching aspects and who is more of a judge versus a teacher then I think that a lot of residents/students becomes loss and disillusioned and resort to teaching themselves.

Worst, people who verbally abuse others, and there are a handful of attendings who do, often make students and residents feel like they are walking on eggshells and these attendings give inappropriate and constant "criticism", more to "let off steam" and as a way to be mean to students/residents than to teach, the problem is that medical education is an oxymoron as few attendings are properly trained to teach. I think more than attendings would like to admit, a lot of people look at their evaluations as being much less objective than real factors such as standardized testing.

If I have an internal medicine residents who does weekly standardized exams, testing real life clinical scenarios, and monthy preceptored evaluations ALL excellently, and if there is one or two even bad evals then I would reasonably conclude that the resident brushed the attending (s) the wrong way. I think weekly stadardized examinations, i.e. short 30-45 minute computer based scenarios would both teach and also help evaluate resident skills.

All sorts of written examinations DO test the knowledge as well as applied knowledge. In terms of lazy residents, I think this is a different issue, there aren't that many, and certainly unfairly attacking a resident or even denying them to practice medicine based on a personality conflict does significant harm to society due to the potential loss of a good doctor that some sort of standardized examination should be implemented. There are a lot of medical students/residents who DO care about getting proper feedback who don't get it and get harassment and evaluations that come to late or are unspecific. The residents I have seen that I was told were a concern for the PD in terms of being "incompetent" had failed shelf examinations and didn't have the body of medical knowledge (which I consider to include every facet of deliverying patient care outside of being lazy) and could not most likely do well on weekly computer based or written questions that have management details.
 
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I agree with Darth about the lack of useful and specific feedback in a lot of medical student clinical rotations and residency rotations. If no specific feedback, then the trainee does not know what is really wrong...
this was my #1 gripe with how evaluations were done. Med school was worse, but it happened in residency as well. It cuts both ways, too...I would get these great evals, and never know what I was doing "right" and then I would get an occasional kind of sucky evaluation, and wonder what I'd done "wrong". And sometimes if I went back to ask, I could never get any specific answer...it does make one suspect one is being graded based more on personality or just how the grader was feeling that particular day, vs. actual medical skills. I think it is a major problem with our training system.
 
In this forum, i find that many attendings and residents who are doing well are contesting and ridiculing the points of view of terminated residents/ residents in trouble.
This is a very mean attitude doctors! Those who have crossed the bridge should be thankful for their good fortune, and not ridicule those who are in trouble. Why? because most of these residents in trouble are as good as you in their subject/ knowledge. They are most likely suffering because of bias/ personal dislikes of their directors/ attendings.
remember, if you do not fight injustice, it has the nasty tendency of recurring. You might not face whimsical firings in residency, but your kids might face it as residents! To solve a problem, it has to be understood first.

agreed, i dont put up with that nonsense. I dont agree with terminating the resident in this t hread. I am pro student/ pro resident it pains me greatly when I hear of residents/interns/ med students being persecuted because they somehow "dont fit the image" of the typical physician.I find programs/ medschools bring out the worst in students and it should be the other way around
 
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agreed, i dont put up with that nonsense. I dont agree with terminating the resident in this t hread. I am pro student/ pro resident it pains me greatly when I hear of residents/interns/ med students being persecuted because they somehow "dont fit the image" of the typical physician.I find programs/ medschools bring out the worst in students and it should be the other way around

Why exactly do programs and medical schools bring out the worst in students? Imagine the fodder with which they begin their work. They start with some of the most talented individuals who are successful in college and who exhibit altruistic behaviour through their extracurricular activities as well as through their personal statements. These are the thinkers of our society, with crisp ideas and stunning intellectual abilities, who are disillusioned and crushed by the demands and whimsical attitudes of medical school and residency. By doing this, the real, effective revolutionists of our country, those who could easily affect change, are railroaded into their own slavery with a golden ring pierced through their noses. The ring drags their noses through the manure of residency until they cannot breathe and then no longer think about anything but their own survival.

Unique residents are marginalized, scrutinized, documented and expelled, sinking to the bottom of the society shackeled to student loans. Indeed, the boot of capitalism smashes their skulls into the ground, and the system is served.

If you feel crushed by this system of education, read wsws.org and send me a pm.
 
Why exactly do programs and medical schools bring out the worst in students? Imagine the fodder with which they begin their work. They start with some of the most talented individuals who are successful in college and who exhibit altruistic behaviour through their extracurricular activities as well as through their personal statements. These are the thinkers of our society, with crisp ideas and stunning intellectual abilities, who are disillusioned and crushed by the demands and whimsical attitudes of medical school and residency. By doing this, the real, effective revolutionists of our country, those who could easily affect change, are railroaded into their own slavery with a golden ring pierced through their noses. The ring drags their noses through the manure of residency until they cannot breathe and then no longer think about anything but their own survival.

Unique residents are marginalized, scrutinized, documented and expelled, sinking to the bottom of the society shackeled to student loans. Indeed, the boot of capitalism smashes their skulls into the ground, and the system is served.

If you feel crushed by this system of education, read wsws.org and send me a pm.

Answer: it is not just the system, it is the people in it as well. Let's face it - most med students are not used to failing, perhaps ever. A lot of them have never been told they are inferior or not up to snuff, because they were @the top of their classes in college. Now, they get to med school and they figure out that 1/2 of the students are going to be on the evil half of the bell curve...now, most people do not want to be there. They do not want to be there for reasons of ego, and sometimes, they object to being there because it reduces the chance of getting a good residency (especially if they do not want psych or primary care). Even if you make completely pass/fail grading, there will still be some unpleasantness and competition over grades by the students. I have personally seen this in med school, where even for a couple of classes that had pass/fail grading, some students would go argue with professors over getting an 84% vs. 89%, although it made NO difference in their final grade on their transcript. You can take the premed student out of college, but sometimes you cannot take the premed out of the med student...

That said, I think a less competitive grading/evaluation system, or one more based on establishing competency vs. just ranking/tiering students into groups (i.e. top of class, 50-75%ile, etc.) would help the med school atmosphere. I guess some schools have this (i.e. all or mostly pass/fail grading, perhaps with narrative evaluations, etc.). I think it is reasonable since I think for the most part you are comparing apples with apples in med school...all students have some areas where they need improvement, and some where they excel, but for the most part they will probably try hard and work hard and end up decent docs, no matter what the grading system. Still, there are no perfect systems and such systems would be prone to letting the few slacker students "skate" by and not allowing recognition of the few truly outstanding students who might otherwise stand out above their peers.

As far as the "unique" residents being singled out, etc., I don't totally disagree. However, sometimes "unique" just means someone who doesn't get along well with others, or just acts weird. Medicine is kind of like the military in the sense that a certain sense of order and some standardized ways of doing things might be required, especially in certain specialties (i.e. surgery). But I do agree that the medical training system can crush the creativity and enthusiasm of trainees, and it's something we need to work on. I also think it should be a bit harder for an individual (like the PD alone, or dept. chair alone) to just can someone...it really should have to be a decision that involves a lot of people, and hopefully some who are not directly involved with any of the situations that brought about the termination.

p.s. I'm not sure what "the boot of capitalism" has to do with all this, unless you are referring to patient satisfaction surveys, and/or the business side of medicine encroaching on residency training. Personally, I feel like we were pretty well sheltered from the business aspects of medicine as residents, at least in my program. Certainly we were more sheltered from these aspects of medicine than our attendings!
 
I agree with DarthNeurology regarding the evaluation and training value of advanced clinical simulations. The CCS part of the Step 3 exam is very much like a real life encounter (though it can be improved). Boards for each specialty (Internal Med, Opthalmology etc) could devise advanced specialty-based clinical simulations on a monthly/ bimonthly basis to evaluate residents, and also allow them practice on these platforms for training purposes.

While the Step 2 CS is not a complete evaluation tool (as it does not involve taking previous history from electronic medical records, does not ask for treatment/ management protocols), a more advanced platform which addresses above stated elements could be used a powerful objective evaluation tool during residency.

Using "dummies" for training and evaluation actually helps a lot - ACLS, BLS, PALS involve using dummies. Advanced simulation model training for codes, procedures such as intubation/ catherization/ PICC line placements/ lumbar punctures etc can greatly help the resident overcome fear and gain practice.

"Make up" scenarios should be used for training residents ( example: attendings do 2 scenarios a week, and discuss aloud their thoughts, rationale for management etc. and expect residents to do so for 2 times a week (no assessments involved here). "make up" scenarios could also be used for montly/ bimonthly assessment of residents.




There are newer computer based examinations that do test clinical decision making, like Step 3, . . . what I would suggest is weekly such sessions AND the program directors/attendings could "make up" scenarios based on what a resident did wrong 3 months ago and see if they remembered. I know one PD who sort of does this.

I was very averse to standardized patient encounters and training with "dummies" until I saw how advanced these can be AND some residency programs are using these to supplement resident education, there being less hours during residency which I think is a very real issue.

So, I think if there was an advanced Step 2 CS offered by residency programs, maybe monthly, that was then reviewed with preceptors i.e. attendings, then this would be a better learning situation as no real lives were in danger and this takes out some of the ego and fear of the real clinical situation and makes feedback easier to give.

Most of the feedback I have been given in a clinical setting has been very unspecific, and is therefore unhelpful. Say I get an evaluation form back that has "average" history taking skills. What does this mean? We all know how to do a full an complete history, which would take at least 45 minutes, but if we are admitting patients more quickly then what are the right questions to ask? Did I miss an important question? As a student if I forgot to say ask a specific question, like "You didn't ask about past antibiotic use in the past month, which the patient may have discontinued", then a light goes on in my head, and I sure haven't forgotten any of those "pearls", and likewise when I teach students then I would politley remind them and even tell them how I made the same mistake.

I think is how evaluations should be, timely, specific and helpful. We have all been on a rotation and been yelled at and realizes that an attending "doesn't like us", and we may get a mediocre evaluation, but never get any specific comments. Even such vague comments and just being "satisfactory" in history taking don't help as we can't remember exactly what went wrong.

If evaluations were more timely and more specific then residents would be able to learn better, but currently evaluations are sporadic, maybe just at the end of a rotation block so nobody knows what is going on. I think this is the big problem as attendings sit back and watch med students and residents make mistake or at least approach things inefficiently or incorrectly and then give a bad or mediocre written eval months late, sure we may be "judged" correctly, but that is all the attending is, a judge and not a teacher . . .

While the Indian/British system has its drawbacks, it would sure motivate "lazy" attendings who don't teach and just judge or evaluate without feedback and without taking any responsibility that if they see an underperforming resident then they need to make specific comments and to impart their knowledge. This would force attendings to teach med students/residents they don't like. I have taught medical students in a nice and thorough way whom I personally didn't care for, i.e. inappropriate jokes or something, and I thought it was my duty as they would be physicians one day, and surprisingly they become more "nice" or at least more like me so I actually liked them. Most attendings have students they don't like and refuse in a way to teach them and then give them bad evals.

I have been in the position of teaching medical students, and taught students in other situations as well. There is a difference between a value judgment and a specific appropriate criticism, one wears you down and the other is an exciting piece of useful information. When I slip and make a value judgment, which rarely happens, then the student doctor will lose interest and understanding, and perhaps rightly so.

For example: Value Judgment: "You aren't following up enough on your patients." Nonspecific, just a sort of "you suck" comment.

Specific Criticism: "Make sure to review the lab values before you round each day as things can change quickly and we want to make sure we have up to date information about our patients." This lets the student in on the interesting aspects of patient care and makes learning medicine more patient focused than on complaints about a person's personality or even appearance.

Sometimes if someone tells you to "follow up better the patients" you figure out what to do differently, but other times you pour your resources into doing things that waste your time and don't improve your performance.

Many attendings apparently didn't go into medicine in part to educate patients or subordinates, as evidenced by lack of teaching, learning via osmosis, and no attention to giving real feedback in a nice manner, which is an important part of teaching patients and teaching residents. So, really, as I look as being a doctor as it being important to educate people, i.e. patients and students, then when I see an attending who really doesn't care about the teaching aspects and who is more of a judge versus a teacher then I think that a lot of residents/students becomes loss and disillusioned and resort to teaching themselves.

Worst, people who verbally abuse others, and there are a handful of attendings who do, often make students and residents feel like they are walking on eggshells and these attendings give inappropriate and constant "criticism", more to "let off steam" and as a way to be mean to students/residents than to teach, the problem is that medical education is an oxymoron as few attendings are properly trained to teach. I think more than attendings would like to admit, a lot of people look at their evaluations as being much less objective than real factors such as standardized testing.

If I have an internal medicine residents who does weekly standardized exams, testing real life clinical scenarios, and monthy preceptored evaluations ALL excellently, and if there is one or two even bad evals then I would reasonably conclude that the resident brushed the attending (s) the wrong way. I think weekly stadardized examinations, i.e. short 30-45 minute computer based scenarios would both teach and also help evaluate resident skills.

All sorts of written examinations DO test the knowledge as well as applied knowledge. In terms of lazy residents, I think this is a different issue, there aren't that many, and certainly unfairly attacking a resident or even denying them to practice medicine based on a personality conflict does significant harm to society due to the potential loss of a good doctor that some sort of standardized examination should be implemented. There are a lot of medical students/residents who DO care about getting proper feedback who don't get it and get harassment and evaluations that come to late or are unspecific. The residents I have seen that I was told were a concern for the PD in terms of being "incompetent" had failed shelf examinations and didn't have the body of medical knowledge (which I consider to include every facet of deliverying patient care outside of being lazy) and could not most likely do well on weekly computer based or written questions that have management details.
 
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I do agree that there are lazy residents, but think that the "LAZY ATTENDING" phenoma is plaguing the american medical system (as well as other medical systems world-wide) MORE than the lazy resident problem.

A resident has everything to lose if he is LAZY (position, career, failing exams, pissed superiors etc.,) but an attending does not have much to lose if he is LAZY reg. teaching residents. As long as the attending does his clinical duties properly, it is unlikely that he will be faulted for not teaching residents. An attending who becomes a faculty member despite being disinterested in teaching residents/ residents that he does not like is commiting a grave offence - he is seriously stunting the growth and career of the residents whom he is supposed to guide.

While genuinely incapable residents exist, the super-tough competion during the resident selection process in the US - which involves LORs, USMLE transcripts, Medical school/ Dean's letter etc - ensures that such people are filtered out - only a miniscule percentage of genuinely inept people can actually get positions as residents via this rigorous process.

However, looking at the significant number of residents getting labelled as "problem residents" and being terminated, it seems that there is more to the problem than just the residents being lazy.

Residency training is, and should be rigorous. Just as Laziness in residency should not be tolerated, attendings who shirk their teaching responsibilities should not be tolerated.

A consistent pattern of bad evaluations by a "tough" attending should be seen as a red flag, and a serious inquiry should be made into this attending's teaching patterns. If it is deemed (after proper inquiry) that this attending is negligent in his teaching responsibilties, then he should be told to leave the program.

Regarding the logistics of US resident pay if the US residency system were to follow remediation as done in the Indian/ British model, various plans could be worked out. One of the plans could be for programs to pay the remediating residents just a quarter of their usual pay but pay for their health insurance etc., Logisitics could be worked out if a reform in this direction is planned.

The critical point is that the "problem residents" in the US should not have their entire careers terminated because of various issues during residency - they should be given a full and generous chance to remediate - i am sure that they would greatly prefer to work for say an extra whole year with a fraction of their original pay, rather than have their career abruptly terminated.



No, I do not mean being slow and overly thorough...I personally have been accused of that (and probably was true, at least when I was an intern) but NEVER of being lazy.

There ARE lazy residents. There are people who habitually do the minimum amount of work required, and tend to turf work to others (either cointern, or, when they become residents, habitually dump on the interns). There are people who honestly don't bother to think very hard, because, well, they don't care about their patients THAT much, and just can't be bothered. I'm not saying that these types always get bad evals...I've seen them skate by with good, or even great evals in some cases, especially if they are smart but lazy.

As far as memberkane's most recent post, I was thinking about it and I have trouble imagining how it would be possible to make US residents work without being paid. I'm not even sure it would be legal. For example, social security taxes are taken out of residents' salaries, and residents receive health insurance and other benefits. Providing those benefits costs the hospital money, and it probably wouldn't be willing to foot the bill for those for a resident who isn't being paid...it would be very complicated to try to figure the logistics out. Most residents wouldn't be able to make it without a paycheck, either, due to the large student loans they have...well, I guess they could just go into forbearance for 6 months if training got extended....it is an interesting idea, though.
 
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The remediated resident in the Indian model would not have a big black mark on his career if his training were to be extended by say 6 months or a year. If this guy had a malpractice/ gross medical negligence case etc., it would be a black mark, and subject him to future scrutiny.

In general it would be be assumed that because the remediated resident has eventually successfully passed the residency and because he has gained the board certification/ degree, that he has adequate expertise to practise that specialty as freely as any other of his board certified colleagues.

Majority of fellowship programs in India do not place any significance on the duration of time that the resident has taken to complete his residency.

However some very competetive fellowship programs/ institutes do note the duration that the resident (now a board certified physician applicant ) had taken complete his residency, and remedial time is a negetive for the applicant.

This remediated resident would generally not have issues finding jobs compared to his regular resident collegue, but might have difficulty getting say, a very competetive position at a top private hospital - where the institution would be choosy.

All in all, a remediated physician would generally be deemed about as competent as any of his collegues, and any future issues because of the remediation/ extra duration would be minimal.



memberkane,
if a resident in India has training extended by 6 months, is this seen as a huge black mark on his/her record, such that getting a job would be hard, and getting a fellowship impossible? In the US, that is sort of the case. I mean, often they still get a job, but it definitely can be harmful and it's always obvious who had to spend extra time because they graduate/finish off cycle.
 
DH was 1st year prelim surgery, had great to outstanding evals. PD said he could continue on as categorical or prelim 2nd year (would be determined after more evals and rotations completed). In Jan of his intern year told they didn't have enough funding for all prelims to stay on. He found 2nd yr prelim job, told PD and PD came back and said he could stay on. For several various reasons, DH had signed contract and decided to move.

That program after 2nd yr everyone but 1 picked person does research. In Jan. everyone was told they didn't have enough funding for everyone (even categoricals) to continue and do research. He could have stayed, do research for free and moonlighted, hoping to get categorical job after. The person picked to go straight through wanted to go into the lab and wasn't happy. DH interviewed other places, PD from intern year called and due to 3 people leaving his program he was offered a job back there. He had good reviews that 2nd yr. Much to my hesitation and dismay DH decided to return to 1st program. Person picked to go through told program she was leaving for anesthesiology week after DH signed contract. That program had to find someone else to go straight through.

DH moved back to 1st program, first 2 rotations great reviews. 3rd rotation at different hospital attending had 2 patients die and 2 others with bad outcomes from mistakes made during surgery. DH was present in both. Attending reprimended for mistakes and tried to place blame on DH. His evals went down hill. Later on he stuck his head up like a deer in front of hunters when questioned about annoymous survey regarding duty hours. Other hospitals evals were okay. His in training exam scores were not stellar. They decided to make him repeat his 3rd year, primarily because he lacked cc that other program from 2nd yr didn't provide enough of. He did several months of cc rotations. They said in training exam score needed to improve. Despite all evals saying he's got good hands and good fund of knowledge his score was the worst it has been. He was recently told they are not renewing his contract, therefore not promoting him to 4th yr. Exact reasons differ each time asked. His mentor at said hospital w/ bad evals has offered to write letter of recommendation and said there is a bias against dh. How one hospital shouldn't determine outcome of his career, etc. So, what would you do?

The way we see it he could accept non-renewal/getting fired, fight it but what good is that going to do. It will just make his life even more hellish if he were to 'win' and there is nothing to say something worse wouldn't happen in 6 months.
-resign, do research even pt, not getting paid for it and try to work in urgent care/similar setting. Hopefully get into 3rd or 4th year spot after a year.
-try and find 3rd/4th year spot now, hoping things would be better. However PD's assume there is baggage that comes with it, outside of politics and personality conflicts. Nothing to say same thing won't happen again and we find ourselves in same position in a year.
-try to find a spot in a different speciality, restarting from the beginning.
-try to get into a 1 yr fellowship spot and then find a 3rd/4th year surgery spot after that to finish.
What would you do & why? Is there any true way to help ensure PD will give good eval when future PD's call?

Thanks in advance for you input! Just trying to figure out how to be supportative and the best option at this time.
 
He can definitely look for open surgery positions (either PGY2 or PGY3). I had a friend who did prelim 1 and prelim 2 years at different places, and almost was able to find a PGY3 spot (got several interviews) but it is hard to get people to take you on as a PGY3. Most programs like folks they have trained from the ground up. My friend eventually switched to anesthesia, so was able at least to use the PGY1 year and didn't have to be an intern again.

From experiences of people I know, I know that surgical programs place a lot of stock in in-service exam scores...I don't know why, but it's probably b/c it predicts the score one will get on the surgery board certification exam (and/or because surgeons are generally competitive in nature, and the exam I guess shows the trainees level of book knowledge, etc.). The low in service exam scores might make finding a different position difficult.

He could start in a new specialty (not necessarily starting completely over if he does something like anesthesiology). He could do research for a year, then retry for surgery, but like I said there aren't that many open spots that come up, and then the in service exam scores, plus "baggage" he has from having already been to two programs, might make it hard to get a spot.

I think there is some rule about not being able to train @more than 2-3 places total and still be a board certified surgeon (I think it is 3 places) so if he does go somewhere else, he HAS to finish at that program.

It sounds like he might have a decent shot at getting a LOR from the PD that is O.K. What is his relationship with the PD like? I would think they liked him as an intern, otherwise would not have invited him back...what happened PGY3 year is less clear to me. I would say in terms of getting a good recommendation, the best thing would be not take an adversarial tone or stance. I think he needs to meet with the PD, ask if he could get a recommendation for a new position, and honestly discuss with the PD whether PD is going to say anything bad about his surgical skills. He'll need support from surgical faculty (and hopefully the PD) to get any surgical position I would think. I knew someone in this position, and I think he had someone (recruiter the family knew) ask to get a recommendation sent...kind of sneaky but this way he got to see what was in the LOR to make sure it wasn't really bad.

If he hasn't taken Step 3 yet, I would plan on doing that, and try to get a pretty decent score, if he can. He needs to do everything to make himself an attractive candidate at this point. I think he can definitely find another spot, but whether he can find a surgical one I don't know...it is good you are being supportive because this is going to suck for him. I think it is very emotionally difficult for people to have to potentially switch specialties after spending 2-4 years in surgery, but from what I've seen it happens fairly often....
 
Thank you. He has taken all of his exams that he can to date. 3rd yr, basically the guy who went away and came back and was the 'outsider', had enough integrity not to take the fall for attendings mistakes and then stuck his head up like a deer in front of several hunters when sat in a room with others and questioned over an annoymous duty hour survey. A lot politics at play and personality conflicts with a few attendings at one hospital. Of all the options, what would you personally do?
 
It depends how bad he still wants to do surgery, and what he is willing to sacrifice. Not much to be lost by signing up for sites like NRMP Findaresident...at least he can see what is out there. I have seen occasional PGY2 and 3 surgery spots on there, a couple years ago when I was keeping an eye out for a friend...but not many. There seem to be more in anesthesiology, and definitely more in family practice and internal medicine.

I think he needs to meet with his current PD and see what the options are...i.e. will the PD support his application to another surgical program? If not, will the PD support him going into another specialty (emergency med, anesthesia, pathology, etc.)? I think the only really useful advice I have is don't make the PD or other faculty mad...it sounds like some already are b/c he reported them (or they believe he did) for work hours violations. This is a BIG deal to program, and many will hang you out to dry if you complain about work hours (even if what you say is true). It sounds like with a combination of that, the low in service exam score, and perhaps some conflicts with certain attendings, the program has decided they don't want him any more. The question is, do they want an amicable divorce, or are they really going to do a number on him?

I would probably check into the 2nd program (that he left to come back to the 1st program) if he knows the PD or faculty there and is on good terms, check and see if they have any open spot(s). Open surgery spots are just hard to come by. Honestly, if I were in that position I might be considering other specialties, but it will be hard for him to do probably (very invested @this point in surgery).
 
. . . but think that the "LAZY ATTENDING" phenoma is plaguing the american medical system (as well as other medical systems world-wide) MORE than the lazy resident problem.
. . .an attending does not have much to lose if he is LAZY reg. teaching residents. As long as the attending does his clinical duties properly, it is unlikely that he will be faulted for not teaching residents. An attending who becomes a faculty member despite being disinterested in teaching residents/ residents that he does not like is commiting a grave offence - he is seriously stunting the growth and career of the residents whom he is supposed to guide.

Attendings ARE very lazy in many respects, some of which involved teaching. Most attendings, IMHO, approach teaching as something that they have to do, and aren't paid to do. I have seen attendings who complain about not being paid to teach and then give a superificial or bogus answer to a legitimate question by a student/resident and that is it, pretty much no teaching. Some attendings let it degenerate into basically the attending yelling about everybody for any and all reasons unrelated to patient care. The very same attendings who don't care about teaching as interpreted by their lack of respect for residents and students want their evaluations to be taken as objective truth even while everybody knows they are a hot head.

On many such rotations you aren't allowed to ask good questions or any questions and everybody just tries to figure out how not to upset some hot head attending and you get a bad eval for "upsetting" an emotionally unstable attending than for anything else. I think most attendings *hate* to teach and take it out on the students by giving out a lot of bad evals saying how bad students/residents are, in effect saying how they are unworthy of being teached. If you say a resident is "incompetent" it is sort of saying that you can't and won't teach him/her.

Medical students in clinical years should get a discount or at least free tuition during clinical years as the clerk work performed is greater in value than any teaching that occurs which is often counterproductive and interfers will real self-directed learning which is what physicians do in the real world. Sure there is value for being in a hospital, and most attendings will tell you that the clinical years tuition gives you "access to charts" NOT that it is used for education. It is like charging for access to swim with dolphins, it is interesting and "fun" but not educational. Just because attendings really, really don't care about teaching and can be very mean a lot of times, the "tuition" for the clinical years should be drastically decreased as I don't want to feel that I am paying someone to verbally harass me or slap me, and be negligent with all teaching duties. It sends the message that physicians should only do what they get paid for and everything else involving patient comfort is worthless. Maybe one day an abusive attending will be sick in the hospital and will ask a resident/medical student how such and such treatment works and the medical student/resident will tell them they don't have time and they have to go to rounds as their attending is getting ready to yell at them.
 
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Wow, darth, I didn't really like 3rd year but it wasn't as bad as what you describe (at my medical school). Sorry that you experienced that. I totally agree that 3rd and 4th years should get discounted tuition vs. 1st and 2nd year...nobody will convince me that I got 33k worth of teaching or other services my 3rd and 4th years. There are certain expenses incurred by the school, such as administering exams, keeping track of grades, paying for liability insurance, etc. so not really realistic to expect free tuition. As a student it seems like you are doing "work" but most of it can't "count" for billing or other purposes, so not really a net gain for the hospitals financially.

I agree that some attendings do not like to teach at all, and some do NOT teach...I had one IM attending who never rounded with out team once during the month he was on service...I mean we had 5 minute rounds sitting at a table occasionally, where the resident would fill him in on any new or sicker patients, but that was it. He rounded separately (by himself) in between cath lab patients, but never with the student and house staff. I thought that was egregious, but I think what happened was he didn't realize he was on service that month, or wasn't supposed to be but was then forced to be at the last minute. I think a lot of the crappy teaching, and/or lack of teaching, is getting worse because of the increased time pressures that attendings are under,and pressure to bill more and more and see more patients. I'm not saying it's right though...

Personally, as far as abuse goes, the most abuse I got as a med student was definitely at the hands of residents >> attendings, but I do fault the attendings for not being around enough to know what was going on, and there were definitely some attendings who were the yelling type and/or just had a very bitter and vindictive personality. I didn't find the attendings at my residency to be particularly abusive, with some very rare exceptions. I do agree that many evaluations are based on subjective factors >> objective ones...at least I felt that was the case in IM. Attendings with similar personalites to mine tended to evaluate me glowingly, while those of dissimilar personalities tended to just give me OK evaluations, but not stellar.
 
so which programs are known for terminating residents? can we get some names?
 
...So, what would you do?

The way we see it he could accept non-renewal/getting fired, fight it but what good is that going to do. It will just make his life even more hellish if he were to 'win' and there is nothing to say something worse wouldn't happen in 6 months.
-resign, do research even pt, not getting paid for it and try to work in urgent care/similar setting. Hopefully get into 3rd or 4th year spot after a year.
-try and find 3rd/4th year spot now, hoping things would be better. However PD's assume there is baggage that comes with it, outside of politics and personality conflicts. Nothing to say same thing won't happen again and we find ourselves in same position in a year.
-try to find a spot in a different speciality, restarting from the beginning.
-try to get into a 1 yr fellowship spot and then find a 3rd/4th year surgery spot after that to finish.
What would you do & why? Is there any true way to help ensure PD will give good eval when future PD's call?

I'm not sure I have much more to add than DF, but I'll support his suggestions / thoughts:

1. DH now officially has "baggage". Multiple undesig prelims in multiple programs is a red flag. A very poor ABSITE score is another. As noted, surgical programs use the ABSITE scores to cut residents, especially prelims.

2. As mentioned above, the ABS requires that DH train in no more than 3 programs, and the last 2 years in a single program.

3. Fighting this is a losing battle. He has too many strikes, and nothing to win. Surgery is all about politics and personalities, so that excuse will not fly.

4. His best chance is program #2. Any and all effort should be made to try to get back there.

5. Even if that succeeds, he will almost certainly have to repeat his PGY-3. Do not waste time looking for a PGY-4, given his problems this year I doubt anyone from a new program will be willing to give him the responsibilities afforded PGY-4's.

6. If they haven't fired him (only non-renewed), I would probably encourage him to continue. More experience can only help, and looking like he "quit" his program might kill future chances. Also, if he quits and leaves all sorts of call / resposibilkities uncovered, the PD may be really upset.

Next steps depend on what's important. Priorities could be:

A. Being a surgeon -- in this case, the focus would be on looking for a PGY-3 or even a PGY-2 spot. It might be another prelim spot.
B. Being a doc in a different field -- then looking for a different spot is the way to go, depends on the field.
c. Being happy -- would help if we were talking to him, not you.

Which brings me to my last point -- the fact that you are the one here trying to get advice / solve his problem is a major poor prognostic indicator. This is his problem. He needs to solve it.
 
APD is right:
3 big problems
-low absite score, which usually is used to decide which prelims to keep and which ones to cut from surgical programs
-he apparently complained about work hours, and perhaps ran afoul of authorities in other ways
-has been at multiple programs already...not a good thing in terms of how surgical programs will look at his application

I think it's probably time for him to switch specialties.
 
Duke
Kaiser San Fran
SUNY Downstate
St. Marys in San Fran
Harbor-UCLA
Loyola University
Others?
Remember that at each of these places the gme director
Gave their blessing for the firing.
 
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Having this information doesn't really tell anyone much...it would be more informative to know which department(s)...to give names of hospitals does not really mean much. I am sure most teaching hospitals have terminated people in the not so distant past, if you count all departments and programs.
 
Yeah, I don't see how a list of hospitals that have terminated residents is at all helpful.

Without knowing the whole story, one might assume that the termination is unjustified when in some (or many) cases it may have been the appropriate thing to do.

Programs that terminate a resident year after year are a different story, but like DF, I'll wager than nearly every program has terminated at least 1 resident in the past.
 
Yeah, I don't see how a list of hospitals that have terminated residents is at all helpful.

Without knowing the whole story, one might assume that the termination is unjustified when in some (or many) cases it may have been the appropriate thing to do.

Programs that terminate a resident year after year are a different story, but like DF, I'll wager than nearly every program has terminated at least 1 resident in the past.

Bro, you're livin' in la-la-land. Having a list of hospitals that terminate more than one resident in twenty is very helpful, consider the statistics I posted above.

Let me tear into this again. There are programs, such as the one where I was terminated, where nearly every year since 2005, 33% of the residents gets the axe. It's true, for example, that many places don't have this problem, but if you end up in one of these gutter-ball residencies, you'll be pooping in your pants. I knew one resident in my program, she said, "well, so long as such-and-such is here, I don't have to worry about getting kicked out. But once he's gone, well, I know I'm next."

What do you think living like that is like?
 
Wow, that blows...
I know of at least one residency program at a prestigious institution that is known for extending the training of at least 1 resident/year from its program, and has also canned a few people. This is in a specialty that is at least medium competitiveness level, at a prestigious U. medical center, so it's not like the house staff they get are bottom of the barrel, either.
 
I know of one guy canned at Duke, and he got 3 tries at PGY-6 - three complete times. If that's not extending a helping hand, nothing is.

I don't know if all research surgery programs are the same way, but Duke is 2-2-3, clinical/research/clinical.
 
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