So, I left medical school.

[SouthernSurgeon]

It's not really an official policy. More of an unwritten code of conduct. Do not gun lest ye be gunned.

Just saying...bragging about how you ruin the lives of the kids you don't like hardly speaks to the collaborative atmosphere you claim your school has...

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[NickNaylor]

Just saying...bragging about how you ruin the lives of the kids you don't like hardly speaks to the collaborative atmosphere you claim your school has...

To me it just strikes me as normal social behavior. I'd be willing to go out of my way for my good buddies if they needed something and I could help them out. I'd be willing to help someone I'm "neutral" about as long as it doesn't overly inconvenience me too much. I'm not willing to make my life worse for someone that has generally been a doofus.

Outside of professional situations I imagine most people act this way. Either that or I guess I'm a jerk.

 

[Mad Jack]

Just saying...bragging about how you ruin the lives of the kids you don't like hardly speaks to the collaborative atmosphere you claim your school has...

I'm not bragging about it. And it's not like they intentionally did it to the kid- everyone just refused to trade positions with someone that had tried to make their lives miserable. Which, come to think of it, might be described as "normal human behavior."

 

[Mad Jack]

To me it just strikes me as normal social behavior. I'd be willing to go out of my way for my good buddies if they needed something and I could help them out. I'd be willing to help someone I'm "neutral" about as long as it doesn't overly inconvenience me too much. I'm not willing to make my life worse for someone that has generally been a doofus.

Outside of professional situations I imagine most people act this way. Either that or I guess I'm a jerk.

Exactly. I would go out of my way to help anyone in my class that I either like or even don't know. But if you're the guy that deleted our Google doc right before block week? Yeah, you're on my **** list and I'm not doing anything for you, because you went out of your way to make my life more difficult, so why should I go out of my way to make your life better?

And just for clarification, I'm talking about gunners. Throw you under the bus, do whatever it takes to get ahead, actively trying to cut down other members of the class gunners. Not overachievers or people that want to do well, something that is frequently confused with gunning.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Cutting people out of the loop for study guides, "actively shunning" and taking pride in making them miserable sounds to me like exactly the petty behaviors people complain about all the time. I guess it's okay if you don't like the target...I'm sure no one has ever been mislabeled a gunner and been treated poorly as consequence.

 

[Mad Jack]

Cutting people out of the loop for study guides, "actively shunning" and taking pride in making them miserable sounds to me like exactly the petty behaviors people complain about all the time. I guess it's okay if you don't like the target...I'm sure no one has ever been mislabeled a gunner and been treated poorly as consequence.

The reason you don't share study guides with someone that's a gunner is because they're all run through Google docs, and if they've got a history of messing other people up on purpose, they can malignantly edit or delete the guide. You don't add them as an act of self-preservation, not out of ill intent. And it's not like this is happening all the time- I know of only one person that seems to have gotten on the bad side of their entire class, out of the four years of students I've had contact with. I don't want to say any more, because anonymity. Trust me, if you knew, you'd understand. You're really making a big deal out of a very uncommon and justifiable event.

The last bit I'll add is that our Dean doesn't rank us in our letters. This is a big part of why gunning is so looked down upon- there is no advantage to be gained whatsoever by shooting your classmates down, so if you're doing it, you're basically just a jerk. And it also fosters competitiveness, because you lose nothing by helping others- everyone wants everyone to do well, so we share awesome, well-crafted study guides with one another, make videos going over all the different exams and special tests to share, etc. When you've got every reason to collaborate and no reason to be a dick and you are one anyway, it really, really sends a bad message to your classmates about who you are as a person. Thankfully, everyone in my class works together very well, down to the last, something I credit largely to the way we are incentivized to work together rather than against or apart from one another.

 

[charmiedermie]

Staff will take you aside to discuss your behavior ("we like to foster a cooperative environment"). Other students will also actively shun you, which has serious implications, as we work together on things like clinical placement sites, study guides, etc. If you're gunning, and you get cut out of that loop, it can make your life miserable in a lot of ways. I heard what happened to student a couple years ahead of me that ran afoul of the rest of their class that ended up stuck with the worst ratations ever, far away from home and family, largely because no one was willing to trade with them because they'd made enemies of everyone by gunning. Usually such a case would get heard out, and we'd work together to find arrangements to move some things around. But not for a gunner...

Our school has something similar, peer evaluations - mainly for professionalism attributes that you mentioned, which can be used to have you meet with one of the deans if there is a problem.

 

[Mad Jack]

Our school has something similar, peer evaluations - mainly for professionalism attributes that you mentioned, which can be used to have you meet with one of the deans if there is a problem.

We've got that as well. Scored 0-20, it evaluates your contribution to your CBL group, and functions as a multiplier for your group grade. If someone in the group has been noncontributory or detrimental, they can lose as much as 10% of their overall course grade and find themselves meeting with their group facilitator and possibly the Dean, depending on how bad their behavior has been. I think it's a great system even for good students, as even if you're functioning well as a part of the group, it gives you tips on how to keep getting better. I've gotten way better at listening and being assertive with my thoughts on certain topics care of the feedback.

 

[charmiedermie]

We've got that as well. Scored 0-20, it evaluates your contribution to your CBL group, and functions as a multiplier for your group grade. If someone in the group has been noncontributory or detrimental, they can lose as much as 10% of their overall course grade and find themselves meeting with their group facilitator and possibly the Dean, depending on how bad their behavior has been. I think it's a great system even for good students, as even if you're functioning well as a part of the group, it gives you tips on how to keep getting better. I've gotten way better at listening and being assertive with my thoughts on certain topics care of the feedback.

I think its a great idea because it puts the right incentives in place - those who try to be one personality with residents/attendings and different personality with classmates with no one around. If actively shunning doesn't work which you mentioned, which sometimes it doesn't, a talk with one of the deans and impending consequences will.

 

[DaMedDude]

I just got accepted into a pretty good MD school so this thread is making me a little nervous. However I have many friends that are first and second years at this school and other schools and they all tell me the same thing....it's just like a job....you put in 8 hours a day and you're done....maybe more when you have exams coming up. All my friends are happy and loving medical school and say it is less stress than undergrad. However I don't know too many 3rd or 4th years and I'm just relaying things my friends have told me haha so probably not too useful. Just trying to stay positive

 

[Pisiform]

I just got accepted into a pretty good MD school so this thread is making me a little nervous. However I have many friends that are first and second years at this school and other schools and they all tell me the same thing....it's just like a job....you put in 8 hours a day and you're done....maybe more when you have exams coming up. All my friends are happy and loving medical school and say it is less stress than undergrad. However I don't know too many 3rd or 4th years and I'm just relaying things my friends have told me haha so probably not too useful. Just trying to stay positive

Less stress than undergrad? They are smoking dope son

 

[charmiedermie]

I just got accepted into a pretty good MD school so this thread is making me a little nervous. However I have many friends that are first and second years at this school and other schools and they all tell me the same thing....it's just like a job....you put in 8 hours a day and you're done....maybe more when you have exams coming up. All my friends are happy and loving medical school and say it is less stress than undergrad. However I don't know too many 3rd or 4th years and I'm just relaying things my friends have told me haha so probably not too useful. Just trying to stay positive

Why not talk to third years, since that is the hardest year, in terms of time?

 

[DaMedDude]

Less stress than undergrad? They are smoking dope son

Well yeah they all smoke lots of dope. Maybe that helps idk. They just tell me it is job. 8 hours a day and it's not that hard.

 

[DaMedDude]

Why not talk to third years, since that is the hardest year, in terms of time?

None of my friends are 3rd years. I wish I could talk to 3rd and 4th years

 

[charmiedermie]

I'm not bragging about it. And it's not like they intentionally did it to the kid- everyone just refused to trade positions with someone that had tried to make their lives miserable. Which, come to think of it, might be described as "normal human behavior."

I don't see how what your class or med school did is targeting a student. It's simple cause and effect.

 

[username456789]

Well yeah they all smoke lots of dope. Maybe that helps idk. They just tell me it is job. 8 hours a day and it's not that hard.

For many people in medical school, it's not hard to pass but it is very difficult to excel.

 

[Pisiform]

For many people in medical school, it's not hard to pass but it is very difficult to excel.

Yea but I still wouldn't say less stressful than undergrad. Undergrad was a joke

 

[username456789]

Yea but I still wouldn't say less stressful than undergrad. Undergrad was a joke

No I was agreeing with what you were saying. The people saying that medical school is a breeze are often not the same ones matching into highly competitive specialties.

It is of course more stressful for most people.

 

[Mad Jack]

Well yeah they all smoke lots of dope. Maybe that helps idk. They just tell me it is job. 8 hours a day and it's not that hard.

I'd say I put in way more than 8 hours a day, on average. Med school is a 60-80 hour a week job, most weeks. It's entirely possible I'm just a slow learner I guess.

 

[PL198]

No I was agreeing with what you were saying. The people saying that medical school is a breeze are often not the same ones matching into highly competitive specialties.

It is of course more stressful for most people.

I don't agree with that. maybe it's just not super difficult for them since they work hard and diligently to get their work done?

the people who I think will end up in FM in BFE are the ones who run around like a chicken with their head cut off talking about how they need to study 16 hours a day on facebook and scraping by getting a 75. I've definitely noticed a correlation between chillness and academic success, seeing as if you put in the work, it's not like you're going to do poorly. the ones who act like their life is so miserable and difficult, meanwhile they're incredibly inefficient are the ones that do terrible.

 

[shibby1111]

Not sure if you're serious, but I was curious, so here's a WashU event of some sort (let's just say that I doubt WashU has to, or had to, worry about any of them leaving for modeling careers):

The dude on the left with the glasses is going to be straight pimpin one day.

 

[username456789]

I don't agree with that. maybe it's just not super difficult for them since they work hard and diligently to get their work done?

the people who I think will end up in FM in BFE are the ones who run around like a chicken with their head cut off talking about how they need to study 16 hours a day on facebook and scraping by getting a 75. I've definitely noticed a correlation between chillness and academic success, seeing as if you put in the work, it's not like you're going to do poorly. the ones who act like their life is so miserable and difficult, meanwhile they're incredibly inefficient are the ones that do terrible.

We are talking about slightly different categories of people, I think. I'm certainly not saying you have to broadcast your life struggles or that there's a correlation between that and academic success in medical school. What I am suggesting is that once people settle into the groove of medical school, it is not overly difficult to be around average or a bit above. In my observations in medical school at least, the people rising to the very top of the class would be very unlikely to tell anyone that medical school was a breeze. They were still busting their ass, even if they weren't broadcasting it obnoxiously on Facebook.

The people who struggle mightily and whine and complain about how much they have to study are an entirely different group of people.

 

[Serous Demilune]

@SouthernSurgeon and @GuyWhoDoesStuff have been derailing this thread like champions. Can we all stop picking out bits of people's responses and attacking them with it? This thread is about making the decision to drop out of med school.

 

[Psai]

The dude on the left with the glasses is going to be straight pimpin one day.

lol he looks like peter griffin. hope he gets a lois

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

@SouthernSurgeon and @GuyWhoDoesStuff have been derailing this thread like champions. Can we all stop picking out bits of people's responses and attacking them with it? This thread is about making the decision to drop out of med school.

Yes the THREE posts I made totally derailed this otherwise 100% on topic thread.

Is your plan to just follow me around and b*tch every time I post now?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Also most medical students I know heavily encourage AGAINST memorization. There's way too much info to be just memorizing, you need to be understanding primarily is what I've heard most often.

So, I don't think this has anything to do with medical school itself, the process is designed that you know what you're getting into and applicants should be investigative enough to find out for themselves before they sign up. I think its just that she discovered it wasn't for her....she's in a very small minority though but good for her.

LOL biggest load of bull**** I ever heard is that med school is about understanding "primarily." The entire thing is just memorizing crap. Understanding is when you realize that a system needs to have a feedback loop to stop a process. Memorizing is when you have to remember exactly what neurotransmitter it is and at what receptor, which is what they test you on.

And yes, her story has a lot to do with med school. Unless you are in our system, you don't understand what you're talking about. No amount of bull**** shadowing or whatever will make you understand what this is like. She's not a very small minority when so many doctors say they regret going into medicine. Only difference is she quit before becoming a doctor. Others, like me, realize we're knee deep into this and there is no backing away at this point. The amount of people going gaga about med school are the very small minority.

 

[username456789]

@SouthernSurgeon and @GuyWhoDoesStuff have been derailing this thread like champions. Can we all stop picking out bits of people's responses and attacking them with it? This thread is about making the decision to drop out of med school.

I haven't derailed anything, but I'm flattered you care enough to share this with the rest of the class.

 

[Psai]

LOL biggest load of bull**** I ever heard is that med school is about understanding "primarily." The entire thing is just memorizing crap. Understanding is when you realize that a system needs to have a feedback loop to stop a process. Memorizing is when you have to remember exactly what neurotransmitter it is and at what receptor, which is what they test you on.

And yes, her story has a lot to do with med school. Unless you are in our system, you don't understand what you're talking about. No amount of bull**** shadowing or whatever will make you understand what this is like. She's not a very small minority when so many doctors say they regret going into medicine. Only difference is she quit before becoming a doctor. Others, like me, realize we're knee deep into this and there is no backing away at this point. The amount of people going gaga about med school are the very small minority.

no noob, you have to memorize and then you put it together to understand. having a bunch of facts in your head is nothing. you have to be able to put them together and apply them to the patient

 

[Wordead]

LOL biggest load of bull**** I ever heard is that med school is about understanding "primarily." The entire thing is just memorizing crap. Understanding is when you realize that a system needs to have a feedback loop to stop a process. Memorizing is when you have to remember exactly what neurotransmitter it is and at what receptor, which is what they test you on.

And yes, her story has a lot to do with med school. Unless you are in our system, you don't understand what you're talking about. No amount of bull**** shadowing or whatever will make you understand what this is like. She's not a very small minority when so many doctors say they regret going into medicine. Only difference is she quit before becoming a doctor. Others, like me, realize we're knee deep into this and there is no backing away at this point. The amount of people going gaga about med school are the very small minority.

.....You realize that there are a ton of feedback loops in medicine, right?

 

[DaMedDude]

Yea but I still wouldn't say less stressful than undergrad. Undergrad was a joke

I guess it just depends on your undergrad. Yeah the classwork is easy but I work a job 30+ hours a week and still have no money and am a full time student involved in multiple organizations. I expect to have more free time in medical school is all. Also I've noticed that so many people in undergrad say they study like 10 hours a day (these are good students who also got into med schools) but then I study with them and they are so unproductive during that time and have so many distractions. Like studying in a group and having 10 min tangents every half hour isn't efficient studying. When I say put in 8 hours a day I mean study hard with no distractions during that 8 hours. Idk though, I start in the fall so I guess I will find out haha

 

[VisionaryTics]

Idk though, I start in the fall so I guess I will find out haha

Yes, you will.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

.....You realize that there are a ton of feedback loops in medicine, right?

No, I just heard about there being 1 in the entire world. All this after taking undergrad and almost finishing the year.

Is an example too hard to understand?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

no noob, you have to memorize and then you put it together to understand. having a bunch of facts in your head is nothing. you have to be able to put them together and apply them to the patient

WTF, are you stupid or have you never seen the entire basic science curriculum embedded in med school?

 

[Psai]

WTF, are you stupid or have you never seen the entire basic science curriculum embedded in med school?

son, i've lived through the entire basic science curriculum of med school

 

[kenjixshadow]

son, i've lived through the entire basic science curriculum of med school

WTF, are you stupid or have you never seen the entire basic science curriculum embedded in med school?

Why don't you two go somewhere and duke it out?

 

[BDUS]

This popped up on my news feed http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/03/why-love-teaching-leave-profession and I thought of this. Wanted your opinion.

@QiasTheKid Nice! A few close friends of mine have told me to look into teaching as well... it's a great field

 

[BorntobeDO?]

This is a medical school forum for medical students. And if anyone puts other people down, it's nurses. They have graduation speeches at nursing schools about how nps are just as good or better than doctors (wtf?). All you need to do is check out all-nurses.com for 10 minutes and see how they talk crap about literally everyone.

http://allnurses.com/certified-registered-nurse/crna-vs-mda-966280.html
This is a kid who hasn't even started crna school yet and he's babbling about "MDAs" and how crnas are the workhorses while the doctors are slacking. Jesus christ.[/QUOTE]

Look that kid obviously doesnt know what hes talking about, and will probably be part of the 40-50% of CRNAs who fail out of school (and yes the number is that high). Any one who actually worked in Surgical Services knows that Anesthesiologist are not jerking around while the CRNA's do all the work. In fact, it is more common to see a CRNA lounging waiting for a room to be set up than a Anesthesiologist not doing anything (the MDA's are always in demand, either getting calls for help or something). The workplace is the great equalizer IMO. Any CRNA with that bad an attitude towards Anesthesiologist will be found out, and wont be around too long.

Edit: would also like to note that much like sdn, all-nurses is a place of venting sometimes. They do the exact same thing you did with grabbing a thread and generallizing about a websites whole population (including sdn). Dont make your opinion of all nurses or all doctors based on some inflammatory post, cause we all know those are here too.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

son, i've lived through the entire basic science curriculum of med school

Apparently not because you don't understand that you need to memorize stuff. Understanding is when you know that the reason an antibiotic is not working might be because a mutation has happened in the bacteria. Memorization is when you know that it is specifically transpeptidase that mutated, which is what the test will ask you. You won't get an answer choice that says "Because mutation happened;" you'll get 5 different options from which the memorized transpeptidase is the right answer.

 

[Psai]

Apparently not because you don't understand that you need to memorize stuff. Understanding is when you know that the reason an antibiotic is not working might be because a mutation has happened in the bacteria. Memorization is when you know that it is specifically transpeptidase that mutated, which is what the test will ask you. You won't get an answer choice that says "Because mutation happened;" you'll get 5 different options from which the memorized transpeptidase is the right answer.

"you have to memorize and then you put it together to understand."
what did you even expect, that you would understand everything about medicine without memorizing facts?

Edit: would also like to note that much like sdn, all-nurses is a place of venting sometimes. They do the exact same thing you did with grabbing a thread and generallizing about a websites whole population (including sdn). Dont make your opinion of all nurses or all doctors based on some inflammatory post, cause we all know those are here too.

Just saying that you won't catch a medical school dean making speeches about how doctors are better than pharmacists at pharmacy or medical school professors telling the class about how doctors are so great and nurse practitioners are terrible. There's a lot of indoctrination in nursing that I've seen first hand

 

[BorntobeDO?]

In the Northeast, 100k is actually a pretty reasonable number. Our precepting nurses generally make roughly 80k and graduate nurses start at 60k. Benefits account for an additional 25% for each of them, so that boost it up to 75k and 100k. Throw in an additional 25k to pay for our recruitment, HR, employee health screenings, employee training center, and divide by two, and you come out with roughly 100k. In Florida and at less overhead-heavy hospitals, it's probably closer to 75k, if you include benefits, recruiting, and administrative and training overhead.

I will concede on the 25% benefits. So on my original 25.5k that would put it up towards 33k. It costs $0 to recruit a GN, if you don't want to. At my hospital (the biggest one in Orlando, so yes a desirable option) they get about 300 GN applications for each spot they open.

Now granted, my particular Hospital still does recruit from certain schools, but there is no chance they spend even 12.5k on each applicant, and no one is getting any sign on bonus as a new nurse. Employee classroom training is a cost that I didn't include originally, so fair. Its probably a month of pay + teachers (they do it every two months with about 20 nurses or so) so I would call that about 8k each (estimating about 3 dedicated GN only teachers). I don't think health screens cost more than $500 at most. I could see about 42k with some nice high estimates, but not 75k for FL.

Btw, the 1.5 Nurse days is based on two nurses: one with a full load, and one with a half load available to help. I mentioned this earlier in another reply, but I could see how it might not be worth reading through to find. This is how nursing preceptorship often ends during the last month. I have already agreed tho that the average over the life of the training is probably much closer to 1 Nurse day for both nurse combined (i.e. they got the same amount of work done as a pair that one nurse would be expected to do per a day) over the life of the training.

TLDR - More nursing numbers that no one on SDN really cares about.

 

[Wordead]

No, I just heard about there being 1 in the entire world. All this after taking undergrad and almost finishing the year.

Is an example too hard to understand?

You said there was no understanding involved, then immediately gave an example that countered your statement.

Yes, its very hard to understand statements that make no sense.

 

[BrooklynBulls]

Apparently not because you don't understand that you need to memorize stuff. Understanding is when you know that the reason an antibiotic is not working might be because a mutation has happened in the bacteria. Memorization is when you know that it is specifically transpeptidase that mutated, which is what the test will ask you. You won't get an answer choice that says "Because mutation happened;" you'll get 5 different options from which the memorized transpeptidase is the right answer.

Your perspective is limited. The ratio of memorization to understanding continuously shifts throughout medical school. In second year you learn the pathology to all the basic physiology; so if you remember you physiology, then pathology is mostly understanding what went wrong in the normal histology/physiology/anatomy. Then there is plenty of memorization when it comes to learning protocols for treatment and stuff in third year, but a shuft again occurs when you revisit the same (or related) specialties in 4th year where youre not just asked questions, you are, on good rotations, actually asked to DO stuff. Which means basically integrating your general knowledge into a specific patient or procedure, where your memorization is assumed but woefully insufficient if you do not have a holistic (look mom, I'm a DO) understanding of the patients issues and you are able to prioritize.

At the end of the day its understanding and integration where good doctors are made. The best attending doctors are the total package, but the worst Ive seen arent bad because they dont REMEMBER stuff. Its tuat they either remember but dont care, or remember but dont have 5 pounds of common sense, or cannot appropriately prioritize issues and deal with them expediently.

Its why youre not gonna see a bunch of rainman's in the upper echelons of medicine.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

"you have to memorize and then you put it together to understand."
what did you even expect, that you would understand everything about medicine without memorizing facts?

That's a cute attempt to make it seem like I was suggesting that. What happened is that I was responding to someone that said med school was primarily about understanding and that memorizing is takes a backseat role. The point is memorization is a huge part of what medical school is.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Your perspective is limited. The ratio of memorization to understanding continuously shifts throughout medical school. In second year you learn the pathology to all the basic physiology; so if you remember you physiology, then pathology is mostly understanding what went wrong in the normal histology/physiology/anatomy. Then there is plenty of memorization when it comes to learning protocols for treatment and stuff in third year, but a shuft again occurs when you revisit the same (or related) specialties in 4th year where youre not just asked questions, you are, on good rotations, actually asked to DO stuff. Which means basically integrating your general knowledge into a specific patient or procedure, where your memorization is assumed but woefully insufficient if you do not have a holistic (look mom, I'm a DO) understanding of the patients issues and you are able to prioritize.

At the end of the day its understanding and integration where good doctors are made. The best attending doctors are the total package, but the worst Ive seen arent bad because they dont REMEMBER stuff. Its tuat they either remember but dont care, or remember but dont have 5 pounds of common sense, or cannot appropriately prioritize issues and deal with them expediently.

Its why youre not gonna see a bunch of rainman's in the upper echelons of medicine.

Your medical school is organized differently than mine. We don't see everything in health first and then pathology. We have basic sciences for half of first year then we're seeing everything mixed after that.

I don't disagree with what you're saying about practicing medicine, but that's not what the first 2 years are like. Also, I never said understanding is not required. I'm saying memorization is essential too for medical school.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

You said there was no understanding involved, then immediately gave an example that countered your statement.

Yes, its very hard to understand statements that make no sense.

No, I didn't say that.

 

[Mad Jack]

I will concede on the 25% benefits. So on my original 25.5k that would put it up towards 33k. It costs $0 to recruit a GN, if you don't want to. At my hospital (the biggest one in Orlando, so yes a desirable option) they get about 300 GN applications for each spot they open.

Now granted, my particular Hospital still does recruit from certain schools, but there is no chance they spend even 12.5k on each applicant, and no one is getting any sign on bonus as a new nurse. Employee classroom training is a cost that I didn't include originally, so fair. Its probably a month of pay + teachers (they do it every two months with about 20 nurses or so) so I would call that about 8k each (estimating about 3 dedicated GN only teachers). I don't think health screens cost more than $500 at most. I could see about 42k with some nice high estimates, but not 75k for FL.

Btw, the 1.5 Nurse days is based on two nurses: one with a full load, and one with a half load available to help. I mentioned this earlier in another reply, but I could see how it might not be worth reading through to find. This is how nursing proceptorship often ends during the last month. I have already agreed tho that the average over the life of the training is probably much closer to 1 Nurse day for both nurse combined (i.e. they got the same amount of work done as a pair that one nurse would be expected to do per a day) over the life of the training.

We had a four story building dedicated to new employee training, an entire educational staff, an EPIC training team, incredibly expensive training software, a national recruitment campaign to find the best staff from all around the country (we were big on hiring nurses and other staff from CHOP, MGH, B&W, and the like), and an HR staff of a couple dozen people just to handle hiring and recruitment. I would be surprised if we only paid 12.5k in overhead per person, honestly.

 

[BrooklynBulls]

Your medical school is organized differently than mine. We don't see everything in health first and then pathology. We have basic sciences for half of first year then we're seeing everything mixed after that.

I don't disagree with what you're saying about practicing medicine, but that's not what the first 2 years are like. Also, I never said understanding is not required. I'm saying memorization is essential too for medical school.

Your claim is that its mostly memorization, and thats just wrong. I went through it. Im basically done. So I think Id know. I am not a talented memorizer but was at the top of my class. I just dont see how its possible to see people remember things more quickly than I, and retain them for longer than I, yet I consistently outperform them on examinations. I dont want to just pat myself on the back, but I know where my strengths lie and memorization isnt one of them. And youll find out pretty soon, once the "language acquisition" phase of the experience is done with, the bread is mostly buttered on understanding what the hell you just read.

 

[Jabbed]

no noob, you have to memorize and then you put it together to understand. having a bunch of facts in your head is nothing. you have to be able to put them together and apply them to the patient

He probably bitched about having to memorize the ABC's before learning how to read..

This is a medical school forum for medical students. And if anyone puts other people down, it's nurses. They have graduation speeches at nursing schools about how nps are just as good or better than doctors (wtf?). All you need to do is check out all-nurses.com for 10 minutes and see how they talk crap about literally everyone.

http://allnurses.com/certified-registered-nurse/crna-vs-mda-966280.html
This is a kid who hasn't even started crna school yet and he's babbling about "MDAs" and how crnas are the workhorses while the doctors are slacking. Jesus christ.

Ironically there was backlash from other RN posters calling out the OP for that exact reason.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

"you have to memorize and then you put it together to understand."
what did you even expect, that you would understand everything about medicine without memorizing facts?



Just saying that you won't catch a medical school dean making speeches about how doctors are better than pharmacists at pharmacy or medical school professors telling the class about how doctors are so great and nurse practitioners are terrible. There's a lot of indoctrination in nursing that I've seen first hand

I was going to explain this with this long post about nursing knowing that its dependent on physicians and yet claiming to be independent practitioners. But that was painful for me to even remember (Do you know how stupid nursing curriculum is? Just look up nursing diagnosis).

So instead this

 

[wiggitywack12]

LOL biggest load of bull**** I ever heard is that med school is about understanding "primarily." The entire thing is just memorizing crap. Understanding is when you realize that a system needs to have a feedback loop to stop a process. Memorizing is when you have to remember exactly what neurotransmitter it is and at what receptor, which is what they test you on.

And yes, her story has a lot to do with med school. Unless you are in our system, you don't understand what you're talking about. No amount of bull**** shadowing or whatever will make you understand what this is like. She's not a very small minority when so many doctors say they regret going into medicine. Only difference is she quit before becoming a doctor. Others, like me, realize we're knee deep into this and there is no backing away at this point. The amount of people going gaga about med school are the very small minority.

Well, firstly you're a DO student. You will receive a degree in osteopathic medicine. This is the allopathic section, so I'm not sure what you meant by "our system" when you didn't even receive an acceptance to an allopathic school, one could begin to assume why, but that would be inappropriate for this thread.

The advice I mentioned was given to me by allopathic students and attendings in specialties that you likely won't have the same level of access to, so why you feel the need to be commenting in here baffles me entirely. Since you feel that one should not even comment unless they are experiencing a thing directly, there is an osteopathic section on SDN where your opinions would be more fitting.

Secondly, I guess the alphabet and reading analogy most closely resembles what was told to me. For example, in kindergarten you learn the alphabet (memorize) but then as you advance you must read (understand, integrate and apply). Maybe your osteopathic program doesn't require you to advance in that way but honestly that doesn't concern me.

When I said that the OP is in a small minority I was referring to the fact that she is a part of the 3% of medical students that quit. That is what I would consider a minority. Again, since you are so adamant to speak only on those things which you're experiencing directly, I think the osteopathic section is more fitting for you. Good luck to you!



*****The only reason the fact that you're an osteopathic student was even mentioned was to illustrate that if you'd like to negate the advice of the attendings and medical students that I shared (not as gospel truths, just as alternate opinions) simply because it was told to me instead of me experiencing it and they did not match your opinions then I could negate anything you say in this thread because you're not even an allopathic student. I could argue that you could likely have had lower stats and been less qualified for medical school and that's the reason why you hate it and find it so difficult. I would never do that, just showing that blatantly disrespecting someone's input could go both ways.********