So, I left medical school.

[BorntobeDO?]

We had a four story building dedicated to new employee training, an entire educational staff, an EPIC training team, incredibly expensive training software, a national recruitment campaign to find the best staff from all around the country (we were big on hiring nurses and other staff from CHOP, MGH, B&W, and the like), and an HR staff of a couple dozen people just to handle hiring and recruitment. I would be surprised if we only paid 12.5k in overhead per person, honestly.

Even I am not interested in this topic any more...

But you all have convinced me that it is higher than I thought.


But back on topic, so we all agree that if you can't memorize mountains of information (and then understand it) you are basically screwed in medical school right?

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[AlbinoHawk DO]

Well, firstly you're a DO student. You will receive a degree in osteopathic medicine. This is the allopathic section, so I'm not sure what you meant by "our system" when you didn't even receive an acceptance to an allopathic school, one could begin to assume why, but that would be inappropriate for this thread.

The advice I mentioned was given to me by allopathic students and attendings in specialties that you likely won't have the same level of access to, so why you feel the need to be commenting in here baffles me entirely. Since you feel that one should not even comment unless they are experiencing a thing directly, there is an osteopathic section on SDN where your opinions would be more fitting.

Secondly, I guess the alphabet and reading analogy most closely resembles what was told to me. For example, in kindergarten you learn the alphabet (memorize) but then as you advance you must read (understand, integrate and apply). Maybe your osteopathic program doesn't require you to advance in that way but honestly that doesn't concern me.

When I said that the OP is in a small minority I was referring to the fact that she is a part of the 3% of medical students that quit. That is what I would consider a minority. Again, since you are so adamant to speak only on those things which you're experiencing directly, I think the osteopathic section is more fitting for you. Good luck to you!

lol it's kind of embarrassing how much your premed is showing and how little you know about osteopathic medicine. Trust me, you'll come back to this post after a few years and feel incredibly stupid.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Your claim is that its mostly memorization, and thats just wrong. I went through it. Im basically done. So I think Id know. I am not a talented memorizer but was at the top of my class. I just dont see how its possible to see people remember things more quickly than I, and retain them for longer than I, yet I consistently outperform them on examinations. I dont want to just pat myself on the back, but I know where my strengths lie and memorization isnt one of them. And youll find out pretty soon, once the "language acquisition" phase of the experience is done with, the bread is mostly buttered on understanding what the hell you just read.

You might be really good at prioritizing what is most important in a lecture, which is why you get high scores, but you can't deny that memorization is a huge component of medical school. I think language is playing a big role in this conversation. It seems to me that for a lot of you "understanding" implicitly implies memorizing the details in between.

 

[wiggitywack12]

lol it's kind of embarrassing how much your premed is showing and how little you know about osteopathic medicine. Trust me, you'll come back to this post after a few years and feel incredibly stupid.

No offense, I have nothing against osteopathic medicine, but knowing about it isn't relevant to me now and it means literally nothing to my future. In a few years, I doubt I'll be rereading my posts on SDN. Also, several other medical students disagreed with your opinions on memorization. Its not a big deal, everyone has their own learning style. I wish you the best in your future endeavors.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

No offense, I have nothing against osteopathic medicine, but knowing about it isn't relevant to me now and it means literally nothing to my future. Also, several other medical students disagreed with your opinions on memorization. Its not a big deal, everyone has their own learning style. I wish you the best in your future endeavors.

Unfortunately (for you), DOs can/will be your colleagues, professors and even your bosses. Ignorance is not something to be proud of.

 

[VisionaryTics]

No offense, I have nothing against osteopathic medicine, but knowing about it isn't relevant to me now and it means literally nothing to my future. In a few years, I doubt I'll be rereading my posts on SDN. Also, several other medical students disagreed with your opinions on memorization. Its not a big deal, everyone has their own learning style. I wish you the best in your future endeavors.

Eh, you'll be running into DO colleagues for the rest of your life. Some of them may your co-residents or attendings or your partners in the future.

 

[wiggitywack12]

Unfortunately (for you), DOs can/will be your colleagues, professors and even your bosses. Ignorance is not something to be proud of.

This is going to be my last response to you.

If there are DO's in whatever residency program or practice I'm in, it won't matter at all to me, not one bit. The focus will be on whatever objectives are in front of us, not the letters behind our degree name.

Arrogance isn't something to be proud of either. Instead of just recognizing that people at times retain information differently and perceive different levels of difficulty in a task you came in this thread calling people's experiences and advice "bullsh*t when they attended highly competitive allopathic schools and successfully entered and completed highly competitive residency programs. You then also continued on negating the opinions of the other medical students in this thread. Some would consider that arrogant, impolite and ignorant.

The only reason the fact that you're an osteopathic student was even mentioned was to illustrate that if you'd like to negate the advice of the attendings and medical students that I shared (not as gospel truths, just as alternate opinions) simply because it was told to me instead of me experiencing it and they did not match your opinions then I could negate anything you say in this thread because you're not even an allopathic student. I could argue that you could likely have had lower stats and been less qualified for medical school and that's the reason why you hate it and find it so difficult. I would never do that, just showing that blatantly disrespecting someone's input could go both ways.


Again, I have nothing against osteopathic medicine.

 

[Ismet]

Let's keep the thread on topic, please.

 

[whizatphys]

Well she does keep getting PMs from people...

This popped up on my news feed http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/03/why-love-teaching-leave-profession and I thought of this. Wanted your opinion.

"Eventually, I just got sick of being in a profession that I felt held no real status in this country."

You know... The entire time I was hell bent on becoming a doctor, often times I would rationalize my misery by telling myself that with an MD, I was going to be someone *special* -- as if the MD after my name would make up for all the torture that I had endured... Yes, I would have real status in the country after finishing med school.

Like me, it sounds like the author of this article went into the profession of her choice without truly understanding her motives.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

This is going to be my last response to you.

If there are DO's in whatever residency program or practice I'm in, it won't matter at all to me, not one bit. The focus will be on whatever objectives are in front of us, not the letters behind our degree name.

Arrogance isn't something to be proud of either. Instead of just recognizing that people at times retain information differently and perceive different levels of difficulty in a task you came in this thread calling people's experiences and advice "bullsh*t when they attended highly competitive allopathic schools and successfully entered and completely highly competitive residency programs. You then also continued on negating the opinions of the other medical students in this thread. Some would consider that arrogant, impolite and ignorant.

The only reason the fact that you're an osteopathic student was even mentioned was to illustrate that if you'd like to negate the advice of the attendings and medical students that I shared (not as gospel truths, just as alternate opinions) simply because it was told to me instead of me experiencing it and they did not match your opinions then I could negate anything you say in this thread because you're not even an allopathic student. I could argue that you could likely have had lower stats and been less qualified for medical school and that's the reason why you hate it and find it so difficult. I would never do that, just showing that blatantly disrespecting someone's input could go both ways.


Again, I have nothing against osteopathic medicine.

You're not doing it, but you are suggesting it. It doesn't take much to read in between the lines. You can say you could negate everything I say based on being an osteopathic student, but that would just show your ignorance about osteopathic medicine.

The irony here is that you're the only one being arrogant. I can discuss with the other people here what medical school is because I'm in it, but you're a premed that has no understanding speaking as if you've experienced any of this. It's sad, really. You're like the arrogant creationist that tells scientists they are wrong in science.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Let's keep the thread on topic, please.

Sorry, I'll stop replying now.

 

[wiggitywack12]

You're not doing it, but you are suggesting it. It doesn't take much to read in between the lines. You can say you could negate everything I say based on being an osteopathic student, but that would just show your ignorance about osteopathic medicine.

The irony here is that you're the only one being arrogant. I can discuss with the other people here what medical school is because I'm in it, but you're a premed that has no understanding speaking as if you've experienced any of this. It's sad, really. You're like the arrogant creationist that tells scientists they are wrong in science.

I don't think there's anything left to say but what I originally said, different people are going to have different experiences. Good day!

 

[username456789]

F*ck, I just memorized everything there was to understand in medical school.

 

[Pisiform]

I am not even sure how many people commenting here are actually med student/docs. One of the reasons I love sdn

 

[BrainBuff]

I love when medical students tell attendings that have actually recently fielded job offers post-fellowship what the employment market is like.

I am glad you do. Nothing like feeling loved.

 

[BrainBuff]

Nope. Still pretty standard.

My brother and his wife have received multiple jobs offers and I have taken a peak at the contracts out of curiosity and looking what is ahead for me. Offers from 11 different employers in 7 different states. They have been in contact with recruiters for more than a year. Your standard is no longer the standard.

 

[Wordead]

You might be really good at prioritizing what is most important in a lecture, which is why you get high scores, but you can't deny that memorization is a huge component of medical school. I think language is playing a big role in this conversation. It seems to me that for a lot of you "understanding" implicitly implies memorizing the details in between.

I have a really ****ty memory. I had higher boards/class scores than the wonderkind straight out of college kids with great memories because I understood the material better. Thats really about it.

 

[W19]

....

 

[fancymylotus]

What the **** happened in here

 

[jdh71]

My brother and his wife have received multiple jobs offers and I have taken a peak at the contracts out of curiosity and looking what is ahead for me. Offers from 11 different employers in 7 different states. They have been in contact with recruiters for more than a year. Your standard is no longer the standard.

It's not "my standard". I was job looking last year.

So.

Where is your god now?

 

[jdh71]

Eh, you'll be running into DO colleagues for the rest of your life. Some of them may your co-residents or attendings or your partners in the future.

I worked with a DO *once*. They were ok. Didn't even kill anybody. The lack of animal sacrifices was interesting.

 

[jdh71]

What the **** happened in here

Allo forum happened in here.

Is it still snowing there?

 

[BrooklynBulls]

I worked with a DO *once*. They were ok. Didn't even kill anybody. The lack of animal sacrifices was interesting.

No animal sacrifices? How do they even figure out the Cranial Rhythmic Impulse without an animal sacrifice? These quacks demean us all.

 

[BABSstudent]

After almost completing year two, I voluntarily withdrew from medical school. Truthfully, I couldn't handle the stress without being an unhealthy person. For anyone who is interested, or who may be struggling with a similar decision, I've recorded a video discussing my experience:

I watched the whole video and just wanted to say that I am wishing you the best. I'm sorry your school and classmates were the way they were; not all medical schools are like that. But I think you were very articulate with your reasons and I could see how all that would just keep knocking you down.

I just have three more observations to share with you:

1. You showed a lot of insight and thought in your video.

2. You had a lot of courage to quit when you knew this wasn't right for you which is something others hide.

3. You definitely have what it takes to succeed in whatever field or profession that you choose to go into.

 

[Eokpar02]

I worked with a DO *once*. They were ok. Didn't even kill anybody. The lack of animal sacrifices was interesting.

Nonsense. Everyone knows that animal sacrifices were done away with before the burial of A.T. Still. No its baby sacrifices. Obviously, we can't sacrifice our own kids so we import them from Africa

 

[charmiedermie]

You see it differently likely because you're not in medical school yet. Medical school is full of people who, like you described, are very bright. Unfortunately, the cream of the crop is further stratified in medical school, and the ones who do not automatically rise to the top are generally not used to being in a lower position. This is what has the potential to breed the gunner.

I know people at the top of the class who were very competitive with classmates. The gunner trait can be just as high at the top as well.

I do see what you are saying, and for a long time, I considered that if I just studied harder, and took more Adderall (prescribed to me by my psychiatrist who was appointed to me by my medical school for ADHD -- which I have never been diagnosed with before), that I could do better. But, like I said in my video, my brain eventually hit a physiological wall. I realized that I wasn't smart enough, I couldn't memorize enough. That was one of the hardest things for me, to accept the reality that I just couldn't do it without being unhealthy and on pharmaceutical speed. That wasn't the life I want to live, not now, not tomorrow, not ever. How could I make a good doctor like that? Or a good future parent, friend, relative, sister etc? I wouldn't.

I think it is sad that you felt you had to be pharmaceutically amped to deal with the absolutely ridiculous level of rote memorization in med school. One shouldn't have to be charged on adderall to be successful in med school. To think I came pretty close to trying it.

 

[username456789]

I know people at the top of the class who were very competitive with classmates. The gunner trait can be just as high at the top as well.

Being competitive doesn't automatically equate with being a gunner. Not all gunners are bottom feeders, but the fact is that much of the true gunner behavior stems from a lack of ability to get the job done by their own accord.

 

[charmiedermie]

Being competitive doesn't automatically equate with being a gunner. Not all gunners are bottom feeders, but the fact is that much of the true gunner behavior stems from a lack of ability to get the job done by their own accord.

That's why I used a different word, competitive, or I would have just used the word gunner. The truth is most gunner behaviors today will get you sent straight to the associate dean's office (i.e. tearing pages out of a reserved book in the library, deleting shared study guides, etc.). It's the competitive behavior with others which is the issue and that behavior is not rare at the top of the class by any means.

 

[PikminOC]

I knew students who were kicked out or withdrew. I always wondered how they paid back those massive loans..

 

[whizatphys]

Being competitive doesn't automatically equate with being a gunner. Not all gunners are bottom feeders, but the fact is that much of the true gunner behavior stems from a lack of ability to get the job done by their own accord.

HAHA wow. After all I've seen... this is still shocking.

 

[charmiedermie]

HAHA wow. After all I've seen... this is still shocking.

I think it's fake but supposed to be from a high school yearbook.

 

[Mass Effect]

Well, firstly you're a DO student. You will receive a degree in osteopathic medicine. This is the allopathic section, so I'm not sure what you meant by "our system" when you didn't even receive an acceptance to an allopathic school, one could begin to assume why, but that would be inappropriate for this thread.

The advice I mentioned was given to me by allopathic students and attendings in specialties that you likely won't have the same level of access to, so why you feel the need to be commenting in here baffles me entirely. Since you feel that one should not even comment unless they are experiencing a thing directly, there is an osteopathic section on SDN where your opinions would be more fitting

Consider this friendly advice from someone who agrees that most of med school is understanding, not memorizing: check the arrogance at the door before your white coat ceremony because you WILL get your ass handed to you if you continue to carry yourself with such cockiness on ANY topic. You are no better than any other medical student -- not allopathic, osteopathic, or Caribbean. Start acting like you know it (and yes, I did read your BS disclaimer. My advice stands).

Eh, you'll be running into DO colleagues for the rest of your life. Some of them may your co-residents or attendings or your partners in the future.

Or your boss.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

You must have been in practice for a while, because two and three year guarantee salaries are a thing of the past (unless you are a J1 -the government requires a guarantee salary for the complete contract). Most employers will guarantee a first year, and then switch you to a productivity model - usually RVU based)

Two years is still pretty typical from what I've heard too.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Well, firstly you're a DO student. You will receive a degree in osteopathic medicine. This is the allopathic section, so I'm not sure what you meant by "our system" when you didn't even receive an acceptance to an allopathic school, one could begin to assume why, but that would be inappropriate for this thread.

The advice I mentioned was given to me by allopathic students and attendings in specialties that you likely won't have the same level of access to, so why you feel the need to be commenting in here baffles me entirely. Since you feel that one should not even comment unless they are experiencing a thing directly, there is an osteopathic section on SDN where your opinions would be more fitting.

Secondly, I guess the alphabet and reading analogy most closely resembles what was told to me. For example, in kindergarten you learn the alphabet (memorize) but then as you advance you must read (understand, integrate and apply). Maybe your osteopathic program doesn't require you to advance in that way but honestly that doesn't concern me.

When I said that the OP is in a small minority I was referring to the fact that she is a part of the 3% of medical students that quit. That is what I would consider a minority. Again, since you are so adamant to speak only on those things which you're experiencing directly, I think the osteopathic section is more fitting for you. Good luck to you!



*****The only reason the fact that you're an osteopathic student was even mentioned was to illustrate that if you'd like to negate the advice of the attendings and medical students that I shared (not as gospel truths, just as alternate opinions) simply because it was told to me instead of me experiencing it and they did not match your opinions then I could negate anything you say in this thread because you're not even an allopathic student. I could argue that you could likely have had lower stats and been less qualified for medical school and that's the reason why you hate it and find it so difficult. I would never do that, just showing that blatantly disrespecting someone's input could go both ways.********

Step back homie, you haven't even started school yet.

 

[whizatphys]

This thread has become rather aggressive lol

 

[BrainBuff]

It's not "my standard". I was job looking last year.

So.

Where is your god now?

I am an atheist.

So.

Where is yours?

 

[shibby1111]

Well, firstly you're a DO student. You will receive a degree in osteopathic medicine. This is the allopathic section, so I'm not sure what you meant by "our system" when you didn't even receive an acceptance to an allopathic school, one could begin to assume why, but that would be inappropriate for this thread.

The advice I mentioned was given to me by allopathic students and attendings in specialties that you likely won't have the same level of access to, so why you feel the need to be commenting in here baffles me entirely. Since you feel that one should not even comment unless they are experiencing a thing directly, there is an osteopathic section on SDN where your opinions would be more fitting.

Secondly, I guess the alphabet and reading analogy most closely resembles what was told to me. For example, in kindergarten you learn the alphabet (memorize) but then as you advance you must read (understand, integrate and apply). Maybe your osteopathic program doesn't require you to advance in that way but honestly that doesn't concern me.

When I said that the OP is in a small minority I was referring to the fact that she is a part of the 3% of medical students that quit. That is what I would consider a minority. Again, since you are so adamant to speak only on those things which you're experiencing directly, I think the osteopathic section is more fitting for you. Good luck to you!



*****The only reason the fact that you're an osteopathic student was even mentioned was to illustrate that if you'd like to negate the advice of the attendings and medical students that I shared (not as gospel truths, just as alternate opinions) simply because it was told to me instead of me experiencing it and they did not match your opinions then I could negate anything you say in this thread because you're not even an allopathic student. I could argue that you could likely have had lower stats and been less qualified for medical school and that's the reason why you hate it and find it so difficult. I would never do that, just showing that blatantly disrespecting someone's input could go both ways.********

This entire post screams, "I have a short peen, everyone!"

 

[fancymylotus]

I know people at the top of the class who were very competitive with classmates. The gunner trait can be just as high at the top as well.

I think it is sad that you felt you had to be pharmaceutically amped to deal with the absolutely ridiculous level of rote memorization in med school. One shouldn't have to be charged on adderall to be successful in med school. To think I came pretty close to trying it.

Wait, but I thought adderall is the key to conquering med school?

IVE BEEN LIED TO ALL ALONG.

 

[jdh71]

I am an atheist.

So.

Where is yours?

What is that?

 

[PikminOC]

Wait, but I thought adderall is the key to conquering med school?

IVE BEEN LIED TO ALL ALONG.

I never took any. I must have missed that lecture..

 

[Winged Scapula]

Two years is still pretty typical from what I've heard too.

It's probably regional. We had trouble getting a two year salary guarantee for a new surgeon joining our practice and could only obtain a one year for her despite asking multiple hospitals and resources.

 

[caskettcase94]

As someone heading to medical school this fall, this whole thread has been really insightful. I too am going in to this without family members in the profession. Thank you, OP for having the courage to post this and all the rest who have had the courage to talk about these issues that are rarely discussed. I do think the stakes are high financially, emotionally, etc. and it is crucial to understand every facet of the journey (med school, residency, long hours, family planning, work/life balance) before setting out. It really is hard to find information like this when of course all schools and their representatives are advertising for how amazing their classes are/how cordial and "like a family" everyone is, and I think students with no stake in admissions might do it too out of denial or fear. I've literally tried everything to convince myself out of the medical field, but at the end of the day, I feel most "at home" when I'm at work (at the hospital) learning. I do know that I too get unhealthily stressed out and its definitely something I'm working on resolving before medical school. Obviously, I have no personal experience and I'm not claiming to have any. I guess only time will tell how it all turns out.

 

[whizatphys]

I never took any. I must have missed that lecture..

Sadly enough, I'd say upwards of 60% of my class was on it. I didn't know anyone who wasn't. The consensus was that at that level, almost everyone had some level of ADHD, and I think that's a load of ****. You know something is wrong when people start talking like that.

 

[Mad Jack]

I know people at the top of the class who were very competitive with classmates. The gunner trait can be just as high at the top as well.

I think it is sad that you felt you had to be pharmaceutically amped to deal with the absolutely ridiculous level of rote memorization in med school. One shouldn't have to be charged on adderall to be successful in med school. To think I came pretty close to trying it.

I had a diagnosis of ADD in my late teens, but refused to take the meds because they made me feel like a zombie. I was tempted to dig up my old diagnosis to get a new Adderall script because med school was so stressful and difficult, but I decided against it because I'd rather learn better study strategies and the like that will last me a lifetime than get my success from a bottle. It's been a lot harder of a road, but I feel like a better person for it.

 

[whizatphys]

I had a diagnosis of ADD in my late teens, but refused to take the meds because they made me feel like a zombie. I was tempted to dig up my old diagnosis to get a new Adderall script because med school was so stressful and difficult, but I decided against it because I'd rather learn better study strategies and the like that will last me a lifetime than get my success from a bottle. It's been a lot harder of a road, but I feel like a better person for it.

@Mad Jack thank you for your consistently honest posts, they are my favorite.

I'm not a doctor (clearly lol), but I can guess that you made an excellent long-term decision for your mental health by totally avoiding that stuff. The day that I left med school, I poured the rest of mine down the toilet and watched those little blue pieces of amphetamine poison turn into this weird blue cloud as I flushed them. It was utterly liberating, in every single sense of the word.

Whatever I end up doing next, it won't be something that causes me to spontaneously develop adult-onset ADHD.

My brain is finally starting to feel less fogged... less zombie-like, as you described it. It's like waking the hell up.

 

[Mad Jack]

@Mad Jack thank you for your consistently honest posts, they are my favorite.

I'm not a doctor (clearly lol), but I can guess that you made an excellent long-term decision for your mental health by totally avoiding that stuff. The day that I left med school, I poured the rest of mine down the toilet and watched those little blue pieces of amphetamine poison turn into this weird blue cloud as I flushed them. It was utterly liberating, in every single sense of the word.

Whatever I end up doing next, it won't be something that causes me to spontaneously develop adult-onset ADHD.

My brain is finally starting to feel less fogged... less zombie-like, as you described it. It's like waking the hell up.

It's weird, most people don't realize how different they are on amphetamines. They really make you a different person, and it is rarely a better one. You're more focused, but less... You? I totally lost my sense of humor, and didn't have the patience to listen to people, etc. I hated how I felt on it.

Good luck down the road though. You're on the right track.

 

[type12]

It's weird, most people don't realize how different they are on amphetamines. They really make you a different person, and it is rarely a better one. You're more focused, but less... You? I totally lost my sense of humor, and didn't have the patience to listen to people, etc. I hated how I felt on it.

Good luck down the road though. You're on the right track.

Thank you for bringing the thread back on track, and also for sharing something really really interesting and insightful! Two birds with one stone, man.

 

[PikminOC]

So how is OP going to pay the loans for school off?

 

[whizatphys]

So how is OP going to pay the loans for school off?

In the same way that anyone pays back loans.

 

[fancymylotus]

In the same way that anyone pays back loans.

Marrying rich??