Rotation Dress Codes

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Anasazi23

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Do any of the other guys doing rotations out there notice the differences in the way students/residents dress? It does bother me to some degree that if a male student/resident does not come to work (aside from surgery, etc) in a shirt, tie, and dress shoes, he is either reprimanded or sent home. Conversely, women routinely dress in whatever way they want, with nary a problem. This includes everything from sneakers, sweatshirts, t-shirts or GAP-like sweaters to out and out jogging suits.

I understand that in this day and age, people are super-sensitive about asking a woman to dress "nicer" for fear of harrassment lawsuits, but this is ridiculous. I would love to come to work in a nice sweater once in a while....I know that as an attending things tend to be different, but this disparity is really beginning to bug me.

In sum - a man comes to work without a tie and he gets in trouble, a woman can dress like veritable crap and get away with it routinely.

Any opinions?

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In my experience this is true and unfair, but who really cares?

C
 
Originally posted by Anasazi23
In sum - a man comes to work without a tie and he gets in trouble, a woman can dress like veritable crap and get away with it routinely.

Any opinions?

Opinion: I agree. The majority of the women in my program wear casual clothes that look freshly pulled from the dryer.

To be fair there are a few guys who haven't learned about the iron yet, though they at least got the outfit right.
 
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I kind of care. It just doesn't feel right to be doing a manual disimpaction while wearing a tie, dress shirt and pants (of course I wore several gowns and gloves while doing this). I'm not suggesting that we all wear sweats and t-shirts to work, but making us wear ties is just excessive. Patient's don't look their best in the hospital, I don't see why us docs have to.
 
The dress-standard for men is definitely higher than women at my hospital as well. I've seen women (both students and residents) come to work dressed like they're going to go clubbing instead of see patients. Why should I have to wear a tie, dress shirt, slacks, and dress shoes while my female counter-part wears a t-shirt/sweater top, skirt, and sandles? I once got a comment that I didn't look professional when I came in wearing a polo shirt, even though it's techinically within the official dress-code of my hospital.

What really bugs me the most about it is that dress shirts are a pain to clean. Either (a) you pay a laundry service 10 times what it cost to do it yourself, or (b) you waste time you can't afford ironing. The dress shirt is by far the most painful piece of clothing to iron, yet it's the one damn thing that absolutely requires ironing everytime. Some of us are not so lucky to have people do these things for us and can't afford to spent money on dry cleaning nearly every week.
 
Luckily, here, we don't have to wear ties. That all changes when I go to the mainland for residency, though...
 
Wow, a double standard that actually works in favor of women. That must be a first. I'd say it's inappropriate to wear your track suit to the office, but really, overall, women get the short end of the stick a lot so I'd let this one go for now.
 
Originally posted by Jaded Soul

What really bugs me the most about it is that dress shirts are a pain to clean. Either (a) you pay a laundry service 10 times what it cost to do it yourself, or (b) you waste time you can't afford ironing. The dress shirt is by far the most painful piece of clothing to iron, yet it's the one damn thing that absolutely requires ironing everytime. Some of us are not so lucky to have people do these things for us and can't afford to spent money on dry cleaning nearly every week.

Dry cleaning? You ought to try polyester shirts. I won't buy a dress shirt or dress pants that aren't labeled as "wrinkle free", or at least 40% polyester. I purchased a few 100% cotton dress shirts in the past and just found they never were unwrinkled again after removing them from the package, regardless of how much I ironed them. With the 40% polyester "wrinkle-free" shirts, I still iron them, but they definitely stay wrinkle-free for longer.
 
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Hmmm...while I agree that the women may get away with more, a track suit is just plain unprofessional as are sandals. I've seen some medical students wear belly baring tops (even those that just creep up when one is stretching a little) and a lot of negative comments were made - and not just by the female staff.

Sounds a bit unfair - perhaps no one is telling these women that these outfits are not appropriate in the hospital and that they need to either invest in something that is, or go home and change.
 
I find this thread interesting because I dress better than the vast majority of my classmates (male or not) and simply being in a shirt and tie NOT not mean that you are dressed well or professionally, even if it fits into the dress code. Sure, my clothese are usually a million times more comfortable than a shirt and tie. Last week I had on a very cute dress and flats since the wather finally started to warm up. When I added my long sweater for before and after the clinic, I realized it really was a glorified house dress, robe, and slippers, but I looked very professional! And I rarely iron, but that's because I buy fabrics that do not requiring ironing, for the most part. A touch of lycra goes a LONG way.

At the same time I completely agree with Kimberly. Sounds like there is certainly some unprofessional wear, but maybe it's simply because no one has told these folks (women or otherwise) that they need to go home and change. I think a dress shirt with a million wrinkles is about as unprofessional as a track suit.
 
On further thought, the only time in medical school that being a woman is a plus is dressing and on your OB rotation. But a meer hour a surgery attending who didn't respond to a thing I, the only woman in the room, had to say was enough to negate all that.
 
Originally posted by keraven
On further thought, the only time in medical school that being a woman is a plus is dressing and on your OB rotation. But a meer hour a surgery attending who didn't respond to a thing I, the only woman in the room, had to say was enough to negate all that.

Surgical attending ignore you... hmmm, I don't think that this is a female medical student only phenomena. I went up to my attending surgeon on the first day of my tranplant rotation while he was standing in the OR, just staring at a kidney sitting in box to try to introduce myself. I got out "Hi, I'm..." before he shushed me with his finger and told me that he was "concentrating"! I worked with him for that entire week, and he never acknowledged/spoke to me or asked me for my name after that for that entire week while I was with him. It was annoying.
 
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Yup, I've worked with surgery attendings that only grunted in response to my questions/comments. :(
 
Originally posted by Samoa
I feel for you guys. Although I think it's fair to mention that, for the same quality of clothing, you guys pay about half as much as we women do.

I don't agree with that at all! In my experience (shopping with my wife), it seems men's dress clothes are much more expensive than women's, because men's are more "timeless." Meaning that women's clothes are often cheaper (and sometimes more cheaply made) and seem to go on sale on a shorter cycle because they are not meant to last as long--in the sense of fashion and durability--as the men's standard dress shirt and pants.
 
Originally posted by Kalel
Surgical attending ignore you... hmmm, I don't think that this is a female medical student only phenomena.

Yes, but this was during a lecture, where lecture = 4 M3 surgical clerks + 1 attending INTERACTIVELY DISCUSSING diverticulitis. He was sitting next to me for goodness sakes --- hey, maybe I was in his blindspot!
 
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maybe the "real diamond" which is bigger, blinded him... d=)

j/k... it really is bigger... am still in awe of the size of that rock.

-t


as to the thread itself, i don't think it matters whose clothes cost more and/or are more revealing and/or whatever (that said, i'd love to be able to ditch the tie in the summer... blech)... what i think it comes down to is what the patients do or do not expect, and how you'd like to present yourself to them. if we can assume that many patients are, regardless of what they say, somewhat leery of allowing students to participate in their care, wouldn't you want to wear something akin to your "sunday best" so that they might look at you and think - wow, that student takes the time to get up extra early (remember, we're first seeing them at the *ss-crack of dawn) and look presentable before seeing me...

i, for one, have been complemented on this by my patients, and i'm nothing more than an Old Navy *****.

my $.02 (actual cash value linked to the Prime Rate, and adjusted quarterly),
-t
 
Originally posted by Fermi
I don't agree with that at all! In my experience (shopping with my wife), it seems men's dress clothes are much more expensive than women's, because men's are more "timeless." Meaning that women's clothes are often cheaper (and sometimes more cheaply made) and seem to go on sale on a shorter cycle because they are not meant to last as long--in the sense of fashion and durability--as the men's standard dress shirt and pants.

I think you just agreed with me, actually. For the same timeless quality, tailoring and finish, women's clothes cost more. There's also the issue that women's clothes are often not very well-made at any price. Seriously, back when I was a toothpick, I shopped in the men's dept for some of my clothes because you could get so much better quality for so much cheaper.

BUT, getting back to the topic of this thread--I do agree that women can get away with dressing far more casually than men. I personally wouldn't be caught without hose on--or at least knee-highs, nor would I unbutton more than about an inch lower than where my bra straps end in front. I just think it's unprofessional to dress at work like you would on a date or on the weekend. But I see a lot of that around me, and no one seems to care.
 
what is the proper dress code for women? no one knows..

guys..it's the tie, shirt, pants, shoes..

damn, life's not fair
 
Originally posted by Kalel
Dry cleaning? You ought to try polyester shirts. I won't buy a dress shirt or dress pants that aren't labeled as "wrinkle free", or at least 40% polyester. I purchased a few 100% cotton dress shirts in the past and just found they never were unwrinkled again after removing them from the package, regardless of how much I ironed them. With the 40% polyester "wrinkle-free" shirts, I still iron them, but they definitely stay wrinkle-free for longer.

When I wrote "dry cleaning" I guess I should have wrote "laundry" or something instead. All my shirts are of the wrinkle-free variety, but there's only a finite number of times they can be worn, of course, before needed to be cleaned.
 
Nice thing about going into anesthesiology is that I can wear scrubs to work! Otherwise totally agree with the dress code double standard. Definitely not a fair thing. Fortunately my school is a little more lax about it.
 
double standard against men?? obviously its because they expect more from men.
 
Let me just say that the uncomfortable-ness you guys experience by wearing a tie is trade-off for the countless hours you save by not having to 'fix-up' every day. If you coun't all the hours us gals have to put in to get ready for the day.....I'd gladly put on a neck tie and pull it so tight my sats dropped into the 70's if it would save me from having to blowdry and do my hair day after day.

And while we are on this...how many of you guys have gone into boutiques and actually shopped for 'professional' clothes for women. If we all dressed like that - it would be suits every day. Or, it would be the 'career-wear' that looks like it was made for the most conservative 60 year old gal you'd ever met.

The bottom line - you guys have to wear pants and a shirt. The tie is an accessory. Hell, you could come to work in the exact same pants, shirt, and tie every day and no-one would notice!
Professional women's clothes go WAY beyond simply a shirt and pants. You have to have hose, or knee highs, bras that you can't see thru your shirts (both in the way of color and fabric), shoes that either look like an orthopedist prescribed them or ones that kill you, clothes that drape off of you properly so you don't look like a slob, - but aren't too tight....because then you have to decide if your underwear are giving off panty lines....and if so, you'd better decide on the thong that day, outfits that can be thrown off easily....just in case you get paged to an emergency, or have an opportunity to see something cool but bloody....it goes on and on. So, guys, be thankful for your constricting ties...you could be wearing panty hose, bras and pointy shoes.
 
Originally posted by double elle
Let me just say that the uncomfortable-ness you guys experience by wearing a tie is trade-off for the countless hours you save by not having to 'fix-up' every day. If you coun't all the hours us gals have to put in to get ready for the day.....

I disagree. Women CHOOSE to go to work with makeup. You can't reasonably say that guys have to wear shirt & ties because women choose to spend so much time on their face. Plenty of my classmates go to work without makeup & I'm sure they sleep in an extra 1/2 hour for that.

As far as the rest of the thread goes, I don't really care what women wear to work. However if you really want to be fair, then women should dress more professionally and be in either pants-suit or skirt-suit (minus the jacket, like guys). This is a profession and EVERYONE should look professional. If women want to be treated equally, they should abide by the same dress code.

I remember seeing a girl wear a stringy tight tank top under a white coat and nothing else, and another girl wear a mini skirt with leather thigh high boots to work. I personally didn't mind the eye candy, but I also definitely did not think it was appropriate hospital attire for a doctor.
 
in prague, we keep it simple. everyone wears whites. comfortable, everyone knows who the doc is, no problems deciding what to wear, etc...

i used to think it was kinda lame, but now i really appreciate it. i am not looking forward to a summer of ties...especially in southern cali!
 
women dont have to wear all that junk like you you do. in fact many men i know would prefer it if you did not, including myself. i think most women put on too big of a show anyways and i think it makes them look easy.

working at a hospital you are supposed to be there to help people and be very professional. trying to wear the latest trends, or make sure your eyes are just that right shade of green or purple is not helpful to this end.

additionally women complain about double standards against them?? is it any wonder when they are typically walking around showing lots of skin, and dressing to the T... what are you trying to say?? look at me, im hot!! or I am an extremely intelligent and hard working medical student. the statement seems pretty obvious to me. and when you leave, they will remember you, if anything, for clothes you wore becaue you CHOSE to standout in your wordrobe.

do you think you should be accepted to a residency because of your looks?? even if you are accepted, then everyone will then expect that out of you, and will always have in their minds that they might get "lucky" with you now too.

i wish women would quit trying to inspire such lustful thoughts in men all the time. if i were to choose a wife, it definitely would not be on looks alone, or even in the top 5 reasons. keeping clean, and dressing professionally is quite different that trying to wear perfect makeup, trendy clothes for all the right occasions, etc etc...
 
Originally posted by double elle
And while we are on this...how many of you guys have gone into boutiques and actually shopped for 'professional' clothes for women. If we all dressed like that - it would be suits every day. Or, it would be the 'career-wear' that looks like it was made for the most conservative 60 year old gal you'd ever met.

oh no, heaven forbid that you might wear a suit everyday! gee... that is what men do... hmmmmmm... but you want everyone to remember how trendy and pretty you can smile. good for you. i chose to have them remember me for seemingly knowing every question they could ask because instead of spending every waking hour giving myself a perm, i was reading up on the medical texts for the situations ill be in. good luck!
 
It's also disgusting how women use their looks to flirt with male residents & attendings to get preferential treatment over the guys. How do they expect men to treat them equally if they use cheap shots like that. Guys don't do that at the hospital to get preferential treatment.

But to be fair, guys are also weak for succumbing to a woman's good looks & flirtations. Some guys can ignore that, but for most guys, it's their own fault for letting the woman affect them. Need to use the head on our shoulders, not the other one :eek:
 
i am frustrated that there is no women's style that looks professional like a man in his tie that is half-way comfortable. unless we're in our psychiatry rotation, the professional appearing skirt below the knees with pumps and panty hose is just impossible on the floors.

so we're stuck with these comfortable pants and sweaters that is just totally tasteless and certainly don't seem like they give the impression to the patient that this woman is here to decide on your well-being. it will just be time before designers figure out that working women need professional-appearing functional clothing at non-couture prices.

maybe by then we can figure out a professional-appearing dress code for women other than 'just wear something appropriate'.
 
I'm going to hope that all the sweeping generalizations about "women" who do this and that really should say "some women I've seen" or something similar because I'd really rather not start THAT conversation......
 
Originally posted by keraven
I'm going to hope that all the sweeping generalizations about "women" who do this and that really should say "some women I've seen" or something similar because I'd really rather not start THAT conversation......

yea sure, miss"my real diamond is bigger" not ALL women are shallow makeup artists...

hehe

i kno... im being a jerk for saying some of that stuff... but as a guy it just makes me mad seeing how women want "to be treated equally" but want this and that... and then get lots of other unfair treatment in their favor for various reasons all leading back cuz they are female

and then you get the few women who are not completely insane and anorexic... mostly they are some of the nicest ppl you can meet, male or female... and that is mostly because they are shunned by women for not looking trendy and shunned by some men for not being hot and and easy.

man

this world sucks

i guess women dressing like that are to get an advantage with men, and the men eat it up, so the women are indirectly told to do it more and more... and the men eat it up more and more...

evil cycle...

guess what i hate is the cycle that we as a people have allowed to grow like it has... in the direction it has...

why cant women just dress normal.... quit showing so much skin... dont coat yourselves in makeup. what kinda guys are you trying to attract?? oh who cares, the guys you attract will dump you when you stop doing that or unable to continue looking like that.... and the guys who play that game to get the hottest woman will get screwed too...

sorrry... im rambling....

basically... if u are dressing "professionally" and not to look "experienced" then good for you....
 
Is it really so hard to dress professionally each day? The women speaking here make it sound as if wearing professional clothes to work is akin to some sort of straight-jacket. I have seen the rare woman-physician dress professionally each day, and they seem to have no problem at all. If you were a lawyer, would you go to court to defend your client dressed in billbong t-shirt, guess stonewashed jeans and stupid shoes?

It just seems ridiculous when I am in a shirt and tie everyday, which is expected and that I don't necessarily even mind so much. But, to look to my left and see another resident or medical student, or even at times, attending physicians dressed in some frumpy sweater or belly shirt, stretch pants and sneakers looks nonsensical.

I remember a few weeks ago I was completing a psychiatry rotation when I was told to get some advice from a psychologist who was working on the floor for a difficult patient. There I was dressed as expected and professional, while I stared at her up and down.....white sweatshirt, white/blue sweatpants, reebok sneakers, and a clipboard. She looked like some sort of reject from a Richard Simmons "sweatin' to the oldies" video.......and THIS was the professional woman from whom I was supposed to garner advice? I don't think I heard a word she said.

What would happen to a 3rd year male medical student who showed up to his medicine rotation in a similar outfit?
 
Originally posted by double elle
Let me just say that the uncomfortable-ness you guys experience by wearing a tie is trade-off for the countless hours you save by not having to 'fix-up' every day. If you coun't all the hours us gals have to put in to get ready for the day.....I'd gladly put on a neck tie and pull it so tight my sats dropped into the 70's if it would save me from having to blowdry and do my hair day after day.

And while we are on this...how many of you guys have gone into boutiques and actually shopped for 'professional' clothes for women. If we all dressed like that - it would be suits every day. Or, it would be the 'career-wear' that looks like it was made for the most conservative 60 year old gal you'd ever met.

The bottom line - you guys have to wear pants and a shirt. The tie is an accessory. Hell, you could come to work in the exact same pants, shirt, and tie every day and no-one would notice!
Professional women's clothes go WAY beyond simply a shirt and pants. You have to have hose, or knee highs, bras that you can't see thru your shirts (both in the way of color and fabric), shoes that either look like an orthopedist prescribed them or ones that kill you, clothes that drape off of you properly so you don't look like a slob, - but aren't too tight....because then you have to decide if your underwear are giving off panty lines....and if so, you'd better decide on the thong that day, outfits that can be thrown off easily....just in case you get paged to an emergency, or have an opportunity to see something cool but bloody....it goes on and on. So, guys, be thankful for your constricting ties...you could be wearing panty hose, bras and pointy shoes.

Women have it tough, fashion-wise. So do men:

Daily, men perform a ritual slashing of their throats with a razor. Assuming they survive that, they ritually hang themselves with a silk rope, carefully tying a ritual hangmans knot around their own necks.

The other problem with the ritual hangmans noose that men wear is that it gets into everything, especially when you bend over. Punching a hole in a $100 silk tie for a tie tack is a poor solution, tie bars are a silly solution as well. While I have never worn nylons, I think I can sympathize with getting runs in them - I have more than once had a brand new silk tie snagged and ruined the first day I wore it. Bow-ties belong on clowns unless you're wearing a tuxedo, so those aren't solutions either.

BTW, trust me. People notice if you show up in the same clothes every day. When I was an engineer at Douglas Aircraft, we had a (very) senior engineering manager who was brilliant, but had ZERO social skills - he literally wore the same clothes (unwashed, too) every day for a week. Damn, I hated having to deal with him towards the end of the week (or middle of the week in the summer).
 
I'm one of the few women reading this that has to agree with the guys. Why exactly is it so hard for women to dress professionally? Certainly skirt suits, pantyhose, and high heels aren't comfortable at all times, but suits aren't supposed to be that comfortable. If you can't wear a skirt suit on a rotation where you are constantly on the run, what is so difficult about pant suits with a cotton blouse [which like the guys dress shirts must be ironed every single time]. Even if you end up taking the suit jacket off, it still looks very professional to be wearing suit pants with a stiff looking cotton blouse and nice shoes w/ a white coat. I think the most casual that any woman should be is the occasional dress pants + silk sweater set combo. Does all of this lead to laundry/cleaning hassles, of course--but the guys have that also. And despite what people say, suits do last a long time--you won't ruin a suit by wearing it a lot of times/dry cleaning it for 2-3 yrs.

I know lots of women who show up wearing sundresses w/ a 'cute' sweater--it looks like they are set for a vacation not to see sick people. Obviously i'm not one of the 'trendy' women that everyone loves, but I'm a true believer that women either need to act professionally in a professional setting or stop complaining that they aren't treated and respected as much as men.
 
Boy, we sure whine a lot. :laugh:

Thank goodness I'm on the west coast where it's occasionally ok to wear hawaiian shirts to work. :hardy:

-Todd MS-IV USC
 
I say forget about all the clothes. We should all wear scrubs for every specialty. No ironing required, no heartache if we stain them with blood, doesn't look provocative, looks the role of a doc. Yee ha !
 
Originally posted by Tazmaniac
Boy, we sure whine a lot. :laugh:

Thank goodness I'm on the west coast where it's occasionally ok to wear hawaiian shirts to work. :hardy:

-Todd MS-IV USC

Are we by any chance talking about CHLA dress up days? I personally preferred Western Day. Never thought I'd see grand rounds given by someone wearing a bolo tie.
 
The very sad thing is that there is no Western Day here, but sometime during December, there was a day when my attending and a random FP resident were both wearing bolo ties! And for all I know they were the only two I saw that day, but there could be more!
 
So is the trick to clinical wardrobe getting the cheapest ties, dressshirts, and khakis money can buy so that 1) you can have several pairs of clothes to switch between and 2) staining, which is likely, won't matter as much?

Im actually going to have to buy an entirely new wardrobe for med school (I basically have tons of tshirts, jeans, and little in the way of dress clothing). Any suggestions?

Originally posted by flighterdoc
Women have it tough, fashion-wise. So do men:

Daily, men perform a ritual slashing of their throats with a razor. Assuming they survive that, they ritually hang themselves with a silk rope, carefully tying a ritual hangmans knot around their own necks.

The other problem with the ritual hangmans noose that men wear is that it gets into everything, especially when you bend over. Punching a hole in a $100 silk tie for a tie tack is a poor solution, tie bars are a silly solution as well. While I have never worn nylons, I think I can sympathize with getting runs in them - I have more than once had a brand new silk tie snagged and ruined the first day I wore it. Bow-ties belong on clowns unless you're wearing a tuxedo, so those aren't solutions either.

BTW, trust me. People notice if you show up in the same clothes every day. When I was an engineer at Douglas Aircraft, we had a (very) senior engineering manager who was brilliant, but had ZERO social skills - he literally wore the same clothes (unwashed, too) every day for a week. Damn, I hated having to deal with him towards the end of the week (or middle of the week in the summer).
 
Originally posted by Gleevec
So is the trick to clinical wardrobe getting the cheapest ties, dressshirts, and khakis money can buy so that 1) you can have several pairs of clothes to switch between and 2) staining, which is likely, won't matter as much?

Im actually going to have to buy an entirely new wardrobe for med school (I basically have tons of tshirts, jeans, and little in the way of dress clothing). Any suggestions?

You have to be careful getting the cheapest - otherwise you'll look like Urkel. Cheap also is poorly made and wears out quickly, don't look like they fit you, and as far as shirts to the tails are shorter so they pull out every time you bend. Physicians don't necessarily need to look like they have a second job on the pages of GQ, but they shouldn't look like they buy their suits from the thrift store, either.

Some have said get wash and wear / polyester blend shirts. I think this is a bad thing for a couple of reasons, they are uncomfortably hot (don't breath), and while they may never look bad, they'll never look good (crisp, pressed) EVEN if you iron and starch them.

I councelled an ROTC cadet on this subject a week or two ago (uniform shirts are polyester blend, and in theory are permanent-pressed) - I told him to spend the $1.50 and have his shirts done professionally. Its' really hard to be able to do a good job yourself, and after all your time should be worth something. Also, the professional laundrys are more able to get the weird strain out of the shirt than anything you're likely to use (although that shortens the life expectancy of the shirt).

As far as trousers go, I've found that buying when I see a good deal is worth it. Costco occasionally has great deals on khakis (I send dockers to the laundry for dry cleaning) and dress slacks. I found some really quite good 120s wool slacks last year, and some rayon slacks last week, for like $30/pair. The wool slacks are italian tailored, just great. When I saw how well they were made and fit, I went and bought a couple of pair each of the different colors.

Getting a new wardrobe is a big expense. I understand, having gone from the AF environment to business to business^3 (IBM) to (now) shorts and sandles for my post-bac premed classes. But, if you buy quality to start, take care of them (have them professionally cleaned, hang them up on good hangers), and figure out what styles work best for you (rather than chasing the latest fashions) you can minimize the initial cost and maximize the use of the item.

I am in the process of unpacking after moving my house, and I have found suit jackets that I've had for 20+ years that are still wearable. I've long since worn out the trousers but with basic colors (grays, black, blue, tan) and no patterns I can always get new trousers. Good value, classic design (frankly I think the 4-button suits guys were wearing for a couple of years looked like my AF uniform, and were about as practical for everyday use).

Get some good shoes. Plogs are OK for scrubs but don't look too good with a dress shirt and tie. Keep them clean and at least kind of polished, and invest in a pro shoe-shine every now and then. Call me a purist, but I think your belt should be similar in color and material to the shoes you're wearing.

Finally, while a lot of the information is dated these days, get a copy of "Dressing for Success" by Malloy. Good tips and hints in there. There may well be similar, more current books available too that I'm unfamiliar with.
 
I'm sorry, but I disagree with the previous post. Very few of my male classmates wear wool pants in the hospital, particularly during in-patient rotations (I only wore them for videotaped interviews, just to look nice I guess). And even though I can't tell the difference between 100% and 60% cotton shirts, I know that the students who wear the 100% fancy, shiny shirts with cocktail ties stand out. I'm not criticizing, I'm just saying that it's not the norm you see amongst med students. Most go for the 10-20 dollar tie, mixed polyester shirts, and I personally like docker, wrinkle free khakis. If something says dry-clean only or says anything besides "easy-care or wrinkle-free", or if your tie costs more the $30, I'd advise against purchasing it or wearing it in the hospital. I'd go for the cheapest, easiet care clothing out there. I agree that you want to look professional, but I don't agree with trying to look like you are ready to go out to eat at some fancy restaurant. Hospital work is down and dirty stuff.
 
I'm with Kalel. You can get pretty decent quality stuff at outlets.

For the hospital I have:

5 work shirts $20 each Jeffery Beene wrinkle free (absolutely no iron required) (discontinued model discount @ outlet)

3 pairs of dockers wrinkle free permanent press dress pants $40 each on sale during Thanksgiving / Christmas time

5 ties in neutral colors & patterns $15 each (generic macy's brand)

2 pairs of COMFORTABLE leather shoes to switch off daily $40 each (at outlet, discontinued model discount).

Total: $375 for 2 years of clinical rotations during med school & still wearing them for residency. All my clothes are in great shape.

One thing that Kalel said is very true is you WILL get blood & iodine & urine stains on your clothes. I have marks on all my shirts. So it is definitely a good idea to buy affordable shirts you are willing to part with in case they are wrecked beyond repair. If you rotate this combo once a week, your clothes will last for a very very long time. The most important thing on this list are comfortable shoes. You will do a LOT of walking & even some running around the wards.

Cotton breathes the best. Polyester resists stains (esp sweat) & resists wrinkles best. All my shirts are about 50/50 cotton / polyester. Perfect amount of breathability & wrinkle resistance. Also, they are all machine washable (save money on dry cleaning) and come out wrinke free when you dry them on the permanent press cycle of your dryer.

Tip: if you don't want your shirts to get tangled with other clothes or stretching during wash / dry, invest in 5 single item clothing nets (target or kmart). Put each shirt in one net for the wash & dry cycle & you are set.

Been doing for a while & it definitely saves a lot of time & money.
 
I managed some pretty good deals in filling out my 3rd-4th year wardrobe too:

-While in the Philippines (where half our clothes are made anyway), went to a garment district, picked out several different fabrics and had dress shirts custom-tailored for about $9 each (how much would these cost here--$80-100?)

-Found some really nice charcoal-grey Perry Ellis dress pants at a department store on clearance for $11 (retail, over $70)

Otherwise, I would go with outlets and clearance racks all the way. No way would I wear >$50 shirts and pants for 20 hours straight in a place where they are exposed to all kinds of bodily fluids.

Now I'm seeking that elusive comfortable slip-on black dress shoe deal.
 
Originally posted by cooldreams

... but as a guy it just makes me mad seeing how women want "to be treated equally" but want this and that... and then get lots of other unfair treatment in their favor for various reasons all leading back cuz they are female.....man -- this world sucks.....




As a child of the 60's and a self-respecting woman I just HAVE to respond to this....
We "want to be treated equally"?
Guess what. We ARE equal. No matter what we wear, what we do that you don't like, what moods we display that you don't care for, how much makeup we wear or not wear. We ARE equal. There is plenty of stuff that men do that I don't like, but I would not dream of basing whether or not they deserve equal rights or equal treatment on whether or not I happen to understand or like the things men do.

In light of your comments, it is laughable that you are preaching to women how to be "professional". So cut out the misogynistic inuendo, put your short pants away, take your thumb out of your mouth, put on your shirt and tie and be a grown-up.
 
shure... some women i see as equals... even better than me... but not if they go around and try to get men to fall for them BECAUSE THEY ARE A WOMAN and hope to get farther for it. at that instand... blah... they are black marked and are less than man...

dont like it?? i dont really care...

when women start trying to exceed in the world the same as men, they will get treated as men.

same difference when a man uses whatever ignorant or other abilities to "woo" his way into a higher position... then he has just lost his place in the human populace... and is likend to dirt....

am i upset with others who look good and know how to use it?? not really. i feel i look just fine. i am upset that people try to excell in this world by using some means other than what is pertinant to the job they are performing. this kind of garbage is very common in many walks of life. when i see it... i do my best to stamp it out...
 
Originally posted by Laura JC
As a child of the 60's and a self-respecting woman I just HAVE to respond to this....
We "want to be treated equally"?
Guess what. We ARE equal. No matter what we wear, what we do that you don't like, what moods we display that you don't care for, how much makeup we wear or not wear. We ARE equal. There is plenty of stuff that men do that I don't like, but I would not dream of basing whether or not they deserve equal rights or equal treatment on whether or not I happen to understand or like the things men do.

Hi Laura JC,

I see & agree with your point about women being equal to men & women being treated equally. I also believe there are inherent differences between men & women which makes each gender unique (aside from the physical differences). However, what are your thoughts on the women who choose to bash males in order to declare themselves equal, or sometimes better. I understand not all women are like this, but a fair enough number of women are where this is reflected in widespread media (Simpsons, Home Improvement, King of Queens, and the list goes on) where women are always poking fun at how "dumb" or "stupid" guys are. Rarely tho are there shows with overall themes of guys poking fun at women's uniqueness that irritates men. I'm not saying that what some of the stuff guys do are completely right, but I'm wondering what your views are on the WAY women responds and how it is portrayed on the media.

~ribs.
 
Originally posted by cooldreams
i am upset that people try to excell in this world by using some means other than what is pertinant to the job they are performing. this kind of garbage is very common in many walks of life. when i see it... i do my best to stamp it out...

Hey cooldreams,

I hear ya, and agree it is not the right way to excel in life. However, regardless of what we feel as right & wrong sometimes doesn't matter because in the real world this is what happens and we have to deal with it in our own creative ways. I think this sort of thing happens in every profession you will go into. Even guys do it too (eg schmooze with the big boss around the water cooler, big gifts to superiors during the holidays, offering to do menial tasks for them outside of job descriptions, etc...) We can choose to not practice this ourselves or not let these things influence ourselves once we become the boss; but it's really hard to prevent others from doing it. I saw this go on a lot in the hospitals between med students, residents, & attendings; but I found if you hold true to your own beliefs and just do your thing, people will see through the "fake" things others do and value your true qualities. The ones who don't see through cheap tactics probably is not worth your time anyway right?

~ribs.
 
[QUOTE

when women start trying to exceed in the world the same as men, they will get treated as men.

QUOTE]

I was just wondering how I would start "trying to exceed" in the world. Beautiful English! What does that mean?

I don't want to be treated as a man; how boring.

But, I do agree that there are women who make very bad choices when it comes to getting dressed in the morning. Lots of innappropriate shoes and shirts and why would you ever puts on makeup to go and spend 30 hours in a hospital? Someone actually sent out an email to my entire class about innappropriate dress.

There's nothing wrong with pants and a dress shirt(no cleavage of course) and nice clogs. Maybe i just don't have the same motivation as the other girls as I don't date doctors.
 
I've seen both men and women make inappropriate choices when picking their professional attire. Sure, womens' professional attire is "less specific" than mens'..so there are many ways for us to make bad combinations. I've never seen a miniskirt on the wards, nor have I seen women wearing jogging suits and tennis shoes...these must be isolated incidents, so you cannot assume that the majority of women are dressing like hookers or homemakers.

This forum seems male dominated, with you guys complaining about how they think women get off easier when it comes to dress, or how women use their appearance to manipulate people..please..Guys go wrong in their appearance as well. It's not cool to tuck your shirts, so I've seen many men with shirts hanging out. Unshaven, long hair, not ironed, clashing colors/patterns, overwhelming cologne/body odor. I had an attending who wore a plaid shirt with khaki's and cowboy boots everyday (in TX). Men can be quite comical in their appearance, it makes me wonder if they ever look in the mirror before leaving the house. Women are not the only one's who make mistakes in appearance.

Many women I know including myself will often substitute the starched dress blouse for cotton blend stretch shirt. I've heard comments from my male collegues "Why do I have to wear a tie when they can wear a glorified t-shirt?" If women went to the wards wearing the standard professional attire - ironed white blouse with knee length dark skirt, hose, we would have to wear pumps (I know some guys will disagree with me here..but most ladies understand that shoes make or break an outfit). Mid-heel shoes are a standard with professional attire. Try hobbling around the hospital in pumps for 12 hours, and no I'm not talking about hellacious 5 inch heels, I mean a moderate 2-3 inch business attire shoe...it's still very uncomfortable! I would much rather wear a silk tie than walk around in heels all day. Wearing khakis with a dressy stretch shirt or silk sweater allows us to wear more casual flat loafers or clogs.

It all comes down to the shoes.. :clap:
 
i wore jeans, t-shirt, and backward ball cap once. slapped a white shirt on top and i was ready to go. you get away with stuff like that maybe once a year. most of the time, the guys are screwed and the chicks get away with cleavage-revealing inappropriateness. whatever. stop crying.
 
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