Questions for Ross Grads

[bobby_chamo]

Hello Ross People :=)

I have a few questions for you guys.

1. What do you eat on the island? Are there normal restaurants, or are you cooking a lot for yourself? Is food cheap down there, or normal priced? Is there "fast-food"?

2. Where do you live? Is there "nice" and safe apartments down there? Or do you live in dumps? Are you safe were you live? Are the apartments adequate for living, studying, etc.

3. Is there internet access down there? Is there internet access in the apartments, or in the school?

4. Things like the anatomy labs, does everyone (or a team, etc) get it's own cadaver?

5. Are teachers accessible? Ie, to talk about a grade on a test, or to get a little extra help?

6. Is there a library on campus?

7. How hard is it to communicate back home? Do cell phones work there? Or is there decent phone service? Or internet (ie above).

8. How hard is it to ship stuff down there, or to move in?


I'll have more later Thank you so much,
Bobby

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[loo]

You might want to check out the Ross Forum at this link:
http://www.valuemd.com

I think you'll find the answers to most of your questions!

Good luck, loo

 

[yipeee]

Well, I am currently on the island and I can really tell you that I thought this place was much better than I expected.

Okay here goes:

1- There are 2 places to eat on campus a cafeteria and private vendors whom sell stuff like:
You can expect to spend about approx. $5 US dollars on each meal.
BBQ chicken, rice, beans
Mexican food
health foods
Burgers, hotdogs etc.
fresh juices
Then there are restaurants outside (not like the ones back home ofcourse)- mainly chinese. There are some nicer ones about 1 hr from school within hotels and stuff.

2- I live in an apartment building. Newly constructed. 1 bedroom approx $500 a month. Cleaning service 3x's per week. Laundry service for about $15 a large laundry bag.

3- Yes, I am currently using the school's internet and they have two rooms with computers. About 50 computers, and they are installing 16 new ones. You can also get internet hook-up at your appt.

4- The anatomy lab is HUGE. There are about 30 cadavers. We also have a professional dissector (Prosector) and she has even written a book. All of the disections are on reserve in the library or you can ask upper classmen for them to burn them on your computer.

5- Yes, they have regular office hours. Some are better than others. The usual.

6- Yes, although not very large. In addition, they leave 2 study halls open 24 hours for there to be extra room.

7- Phone service is okay. Cellphones work. many use dialpad to call home from their computers.

8- Very easy. Many people ship stuff in barrels. Tv's, special foodstuff's not avail. here etc.


You should check out the ross forum at: www.ValueMD.com for more info. good luck

 

[silenthunder]

Hello,

I am not a student at Ross, just someone who is also doing some research into possibly attending Ross.

One thing I wanted to add:

You can see some pics of Ross on www.valuemd.com by clicking
on the "album" link at the top and then going to the appropriate album. There are also albums for many other schools. BTW from the picture of the Ross anat. lab, yeah IT'S HUGE.

Cheers,

Silenthunder

 

[DoubleOSeven]

yippeee- any other feedback about your experience at ross so far? did you look into sgu as well? what made you decide to go to ross? also, how are the classes...what is a typical first term course load? sorry to bombard you with these q's...i'm just looking into ross now because i applied to sgu and was offered the mph program. so i'm looking into other options. thanx in advance!

 

[Bevo]

currently in 1st semester and the load isn't all that much. it cradually introduces you into medical school.

I heard it gets worse as teh semesters go on though.


1st sem is Histology, biochemistry, genetics, and this Doctor, Patient and Society course

2nd semester is Neuroanatomy, gross anatomy, and physiology

3rd semester is behavioral science, pathology, pharmacology and microbiology?

4th - I got no idea.

 

[Leukocyte]

I am currently a MS-3 in Miami

Originally posted by lmbebo

4th - I got no idea.

Pathology-Organ system

Pharmacology (Not in 3rd semester)

Intro. To Clinical Medicine 1


1st Semester and 3rd Semester are usually considered smooth. In my opinion, the 2nd and 4th semesters were HELL.

The island is very beautiful, but the services are limited and slow. Expect brief but frequent power outages. Expect your service orders to be delayed.

As far as instruction goes, well, let me just say do not expect to be spoon-fed. You have to be a SELF MOTIVATOR. Expect to do some self-studying.

Strongest Departments (in my opinion):

Biochemistry
Histology
Behavioral
Pharmacology
Neuroscience (Dr. Glacer is fast, but excellent)
Pathology-1

Weakest Departments (in my opinion):

Physiology
Embryology
Nutrition
Pathology-2

If you have any more questions, you are welcome to ask me.

Peace

Leuk.

 

[Bevo]

Hi,

Pharm is in 3rd semester. They changed the curriculum for those of us on the new grading system, Hofstee method?

A lot of 3rd semesters here had problems at teh beginning of the term because of the workload placed upon them.

Dr.Burlingham?, although well liked, was asking a lot out of the 3rd semesters. Many were having problems keeping up with microbio, let alone all of the other courses.

The power outtage situation is slightly better than when I first got here.

We had a period of 2 weeks or so where the power went off a lot. And when it did go out, it went out for long periods of time. Longest was close to 24 hours.

 

[bobby_chamo]

And lets say that you are giving a deposition, when you graduate, or you are testifying in court, and the lawyer ask where you went to medical school, and you say Ross, and he starts to beret you with questions on why you went to Ross, instead of a domestic medical school?

(This is not trolling)

 

[Leukocyte]

Good to know that things and changing for the better.

Hang in there lmbebo and yipeee, your time on the island will be over before you know it. Miami is only a few months away.

Good Luck

Leuk.

 

[yipeee]

And lets say that you are giving a deposition, when you graduate, or you are testifying in court, and the lawyer ask where you went to medical school, and you say Ross, and he starts to beret you with questions on why you went to Ross, instead of a domestic medical school?

I would say to take a look at my board scores and where I did my residency.

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Originally posted by bobby_chamo
And lets say that you are giving a deposition, when you graduate, or you are testifying in court, and the lawyer ask where you went to medical school, and you say Ross, and he starts to beret you with questions on why you went to Ross, instead of a domestic medical school?

(This is not trolling)

If your lawyer is any good, then he will object as quick as lightening in order to hopefully prevent you from mentioning that you went to Ross. Lawyers will take any opportunity to discredit somebody on the stand, and getting you to admit that you got a medical degree from a Caribbean school is a sure way for you to discredit yourself without the lawyer having to do anything further. That is one reason why Caribbean graduates are hardly, if ever, asked to act as an expert witnesses in court (regardless of their board scores or residency program) since lawyers know that most people will not take their degree seriously. It does not matter how good your board scores were or where you went for residency, since the jury (as well as most other people) will always be skeptical of a doctor who had to settle for a Carib degree.

 

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by ArrogantSurgeon
It does not matter how good your board scores were or where you went for residency, since the jury (as well as most other people) will always be skeptical of a doctor who had to settle for a Carib degree.

Dude, even at almost 4 in the morning, can it! Where is the evidence for your statement about the jury (as well as most other people) being skeptical? How do you know who is called as being an expert witness (and that FMG's aren't)?

 

[yipeee]

ArrogantSurgeon,

If you ever have a chance to look at the books for Step 2 review called Crush the Boards (around 13 of them), why look and see who the author is. Adam Brochert, a Ross Grad! He is doing his last year in Radiology and just matched for a fellowship at Harvard. Do you think a jury would discredit that?

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Big wup, a couple of Carib grads here and there make it into competetive residencies...it's called exceptions to the norm. Why do Carib grads always cling on to a few exceptions to justify themselves? Why don't they ever bring up the fact that most of them end up at having to settle for residencies nobody else really wants or being forced to do prelim residencies in hopes of being allowed into a categorical one? Understand that a Carib school is not the same as a US med school and the caliber of most students going to some third world island to get a medical "education" is not up to par.

 

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by ArrogantSurgeon
Understand that a Carib school is not the same as a US med school and the caliber of most students going to some third world island to get a medical "education" is not up to par.

Quit while you're behind. You're at the University of Washington - a LOT easier to get into as a state resident than if you are from New York, California, or Texas. When there are more applicants than spots, do you REALLY think the only people who get in are the best?

Evidence about education not being up to par, please. My residency (which you don't have, because you are a student without experience as a doctor) is at a better place than you are at (by the US News numbers), but I realize that it is what you make of it. For "education", seems like a lot of people are taking a BIG chance on me.

More collegiality please, or at least keep your naysaying to one thread, instead of spreading the love so wide. And any evidence - anything - to support what you say (leftovers, unwanted residencies, substandard education) is always welcome.

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Come talk when you can tell us the number of Carib grads who get into competetive residencies like ortho, derm, neurosurg, rads, plastics, ophtho straight out of school over those who have go to settle for no-name programs just like they had to settle for an island school.

BTW, why do Carib grads have the constant need to try to justify their choice of medical "education"? Just move on instead of always trying to show that you are equal to those who went to real med schools. Being constantly defensive and sensitive about your degree only increases your stigma and further shows your insecurities.

 

[spinestudent]

Arrogant surgeon, what the hell is your point here?

If you are arguing that IMG's as a whole were less qualified to get into med school as AMG's as a whole.....well duh.

If you are arguing that AMG's get into more competitive residencies in general......well duh.

I don't think ANYONE is arguing against you on that point. The arguments people are making deal with the idea that EVERY carrib student is inferior to EVERY US student. There are lots of people in Texas and Ohio state med schools who wouldn't be in US med schools now if they were from Florida or California. Does a state of residence make someone more qualified to train to be a physician?

Also, what is it with you and juries?? Most carrib students aren't going into fields with high malpractice rates anyways(IM/FP/psch/path), so this usually isn't an issue. Of course there are exceptions.

As for the exceptions of IMG's getting great residencies, it all just depends on how you define competitive. Are there IMG's who go into ortho, ent, urology, derm and neurosurgery? Except for a few outliers every year, no. But what about EM, Anesthesiology, and categorical general surgery? These are very hard for IMG's to get into, but there are more than a handful every year who match these fields. Now will they end up doing EM at Denver or gsurg at a top university program? Probably not, but they will still get great training in these fields. I doubt Apollyon is losing any sleep over the fact that Duke's EM program is new and not as prestigous as some others because the bottom line is that he/she will be competently trained and be able to work as an attending EM physician in whatever area desired. The bottom line is that every carrib student should prepare to be content doing IM/FP, and act like it is a nice bonus if they match into a more competitive field(assuming they want to of course)

I think what really bugs you is the idea that these people going off to SGU and Ross will be your colleagues one day. That they wil have the same DEA priv. as you. That they will be working under the same billing codes as you. That they will be a liscenced physician in the United States just like you. You're just going to have to deal with it.......and don't tick them off, because you are going to need some of these primary care IMGs send some referrals your way!!!!!

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Originally posted by spinestudent
The arguments people are making deal with the idea that EVERY carrib student is inferior to EVERY US student.

Notice I have said *most* Carib students are inferior to US students. I have acknowledged that there are exceptions.



Also, what is it with you and juries??

A poster (bobby_chamo) asked regarding court cases and what would happen if a Carib graduate was to act as an "expert witness" and I was responding to his question. Lawyers look for impeccable credentials when picking an expert witness, and no wise lawyer would choose a Carib graduate as an expert witness since he/she would get destroyed on the stand since the other lawyer would most likely make a mockery of his/her med school and destroy his/her credibility. Why would you risk using a Carib graduate as an expert witness when you can instead get one that at least graduated from a real med school? Besides, is there even a Carib graduate out there who is considered a leading authority or even a prominent figure in his/her field?

 

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by ArrogantSurgeon
Besides, is there even a Carib graduate out there who is considered a leading authority or even a prominent figure in his/her field?

Directly off the top of my head - Jack Cush, MD, SGU '81, Founding member, American College of Rheumatology, Associate? Professor, UT-Southwestern, and author of the intro chapter in Harrison's on rheumatologic diseases.

Now, you'll say, "OK, that's one. Any more? There are always exceptions." You asked for one, you got it - and yet, you still fail to provide concrete examples of what you spout.

Moreover, there are a number of Grenadian and Vincentian students that go to St. George's in each class, graduate, and return to their home countries to provide medical care. You show your immaturity and ignorance by saying "education" (your quotes), and that itis not a real school. These people learn in their own country, the US, and UK, and serve their own citizens. These are third world countries. According to you, these doctors didn't go to a 'real' school, nor did they receive an "education". So the people in these countries are being treated by quacks? These people are getting treatment from their countrymen - will you deride that? Will you deride the poor (as you have elsewhere), and demean them for being poor, not having the means to get an education, and just getting by?

Your rhetoric is weak and unsupported, your arguments tired and specious; once again, collegiality would pay you dividends.

Oh, and, by the way, look at the title of this thread; any thread dealing with Caribbean schools or DO schools or anything that is not "USMD" does not require you to chime in, posting your same negative message. We all hear you loud (very loud) and clear.

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Yawn...

What is the point you're trying to get at by endlessly defending your medical "education"? Why do you feel the need to justify yourself to me?

If you feel so secure about your "education" why don't you just move on and hopefully one day graduate from your esteemed island school.

BTW, there is a big difference between residents who go to med school in their own country compared to US citizens who could not get into a med school in their own country and have to run down to some island school that panders to US rejects.

 

[spinestudent]

Arrogant surgeon, I think we are all aware that there are fewer "prominent" carribean graduates. That's because most all carrib students went there because they knew they were interfested in clinical private practice medicine. They didn't have dreams of being department heads of huge university programs. The ones that did decided to give it another go or two at US schools.

Your problem is that you seem to want to make the leap from this fact to the idea that IMG's are somehow "lesser" physicians.....which is total BS. An IMG who is in a diagnostic cardiology practice in baltimore is equal in every way to the AMG cardiologist in the same practice. And there are LOTS of IMG's in cardiology(something like 35-40%)

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Originally posted by spinestudent
Your problem is that you seem to want to make the leap from this fact to the idea that IMG's are somehow "lesser" physicians.....which is total BS. An IMG who is in a diagnostic cardiology practice in baltimore is equal in every way to the AMG cardiologist in the same practice. And there are LOTS of IMG's in cardiology(something like 35-40%)

And you have failed to see the distinction between a true IMG who went to med school in his native country AND THEN immigrated to practice in the USA from US students who *could not* get into a med school in their native country (e.g. weren't good enough to get into a US school) and had no choice but to go to some "school" set up on an island that has very easy admissions standards in order to attract rejects from US schools. Admission standards in countries where most true IMGs come from are as strict (if not stricter) than in the USA.

 

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by ArrogantSurgeon, May 20, 2003, 5:18pm
May I interject here and ask that we prevent this thread from getting hijacked. Please do not respond to and give trolls what they want, as it will only bring us off topic and encourage them to do the same thing in the future because they know people will acknowledge them.

This is a topic I'm sure many of us are interested in and it would be a shame for it to spiral into another sophomoric insult thread.

Remember, as long as you completely ignore the troll(s) then they are marginalized and can no longer influence the course of the discussion at hand. Dignify them with a response then they have succeeded in what they set out to do.

Wish I could have taken your sage advice much earlier.


5/20/2003 17:18

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Just because you can't accept the truth and want to remain in the safety of denial does not mean people who disagree with you are trolling.

 

[spinestudent]

Arrogant surgeon, you have the reading comprehension of a 5th grader. I'm very aware of the differences between US IMG's and non-US IMGS. And I'm very aware of the fact that the US AMG population tends to be more intelligent than the US IMG population.

My point is that a US IMG cardiologist is just as impressive as an AMG cardiologist. It may be harder the IMG to get that cards fellowship, but plenty do after proving themselves their first couple years of residency.

Also, you made a cute little distinction between US IMGs and non-US IMGs, but given two candidates from Ross with identical board scores and identical grades, most programs are going to favor the US IMG. The reason that you see more non US IMGs in cards, GI, rads, etc is because there are just a ton more non-US IMGs to start with. If you look at the really malignant IM programs in undesirable locations, these are usually filled by non US IMGs. In most situations, it is more advantageous to be a US IMG than be coming from India or Pakistan......assuming equal scores.

 

[yipeee]

In many of those countries it does not depend on how "intelligent" you are but on how much MONEY your family has. So, your argument is completely irrelevant.

 

[Skip Intro]

Originally posted by ArrogantSurgeon
If your lawyer is any good, then he will object as quick as lightening in order to hopefully prevent you from mentioning that you went to Ross.

Once again, Ignorant Surgeon, you're showing your lack of knowledge.

(1) The vast majority of medical malpractice cases - U.S. grad or IMG regardless - are settled out of court. No study has ever been able to show a difference in malpractice trends between U.S. and non-U.S. graduates.

(2) Should the situation you describe arise, a lawyer would not and could not "object" as you suggest (unless he wanted to look like a complete rube to the judge, jury, and court observers). Even if he/she could, this would only worsen any potential damage.

What a good lawyer would do in such a situation is address this and cover all the territoryt with his client on the stand in DIRECT examination. He wouldn't give the plaintiff's attorney the chance to bring this up in the first place. How do I know this? Not only do I have a close personal attorney in the family (my mom), I also happen to have been directly involved in medical malpractice litigation. And, one of the experts who testified on my behalf was a surgeon... who happened to get his undergrad medical degree at Universidad Autonomo de Guadalajara!

I'm starting to get cramps with all the deep belly laughs that you've provided me in recent weeks. But, don't worry. Just keep 'em coming, dude. I love to sit back and watch the unraveling disaster of you plumbing the depths of your own stupidity.

-Skippy

 

[Skip Intro]

Originally posted by ArrogantSurgeon
Yawn...

What is the point you're trying to get at by endlessly defending your medical "education"? Why do you feel the need to justify yourself to me?

If you feel so secure about your "education" why don't you just move on and hopefully one day graduate from your esteemed island school.

BTW, there is a big difference between residents who go to med school in their own country compared to US citizens who could not get into a med school in their own country and have to run down to some island school that panders to US rejects.

What a complete and total *****! Am I the only one who sees the utter and shameless contradiction in this post?



-Skippy

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Here comes little Skippy running to defend his precious island school. At least try to be a bit more mature this time so that this thread does not get closed due to you bitter personal attacks.

 

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by ArrogantSurgeon
Big wup, a couple of Carib grads here and there make it into competetive residencies...it's called exceptions to the norm. Why do Carib grads always cling on to a few exceptions to justify themselves? Why don't they ever bring up the fact that most of them end up at having to settle for residencies nobody else really wants or being forced to do prelim residencies in hopes of being allowed into a categorical one? Understand that a Carib school is not the same as a US med school and the caliber of most students going to some third world island to get a medical "education" is not up to par.

What did this have to do with the original post in this thread? Go away. Believe it or not, not everyone is as smart as you, and, sometimes, people do go elsewhere for medical or DO school. Moreover, believe it or not, qualified people don't get into med school, and some people who get in shouldn't be there. Don't pollute every thread you see in the international medicine forum with your own opinions (unsupported by facts). You've been heard - to excess. Give it a rest. Please.

 

[poly]

What's wrong with letting "God's Gift to Surgery" think that he is?


Please do not feed trolls.

p.

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Last time I heard we had freedom of expression. Just because you don't want to hear the truth and instead like to remain in denial does not mean that people who disagree with you should "go away". Do Carib schools also teach you to tell people/patients with opposing views to "go away".

 

[spinestudent]

Arrogant surgeon, it just burns you up that one day you will be working with guys like skip and apollyon who graduated from carribean schools doesn't it? Do you think it before you go to sleep every night?

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Originally posted by spinestudent
Arrogant surgeon, it just burns you up that one day you will be working with guys like skip and apollyon who graduated from carribean schools doesn't it? Do you think it before you go to sleep every night?

Nah dude, Carib graduates usually don't make it as surgical subspecialists in a posh area of the country. But if I ever have to take a detour through the inner city on my to the country club then I may drive by and laugh at the run-down hospital they had to settle for.

 

[awdc]

Originally posted by ArrogantSurgeon


Here comes little Skippy running to defend his precious island school. At least try to be a bit more mature this time so that this thread does not get closed due to you bitter personal attacks.

Yet, another example of ArrogantSurgeon's contradictions... what irony.

 

[auser]

Arrogant Surgeon:

I have just one question for you, what about the students who are honest when they are asked in their applications why they want to be in medicine. They say they want to play God as arrogant surgeons, make loads of cash so they can retire early to play golf at the country club. Where do these people go to school???

 

[silenthunder]

WOw,

this is a rather interesting thread.

I have to applaud Arrogant Surgeon on holding up some kind of fight against everyone else. That being said, it does seem as if your arguments are somewhat flawed.

However, you do bring up some good points.

I am not going to try and discredit you in any way. For all I know you are alot more right than most people.

I do have a question for you though, and bear in mind that I am NOT trying to make fun of you or discredit you in any way;

You mentioned that there is a big difference between a US-IMG (assumedly one who goes to the Caribbean or elsewhere) and a non-US-IMG who went to school in their own country. What is this difference exactly? Why is this difference worth bringing up? I ask because I am a Canadian, who can't get into medical school in Canada, and can't get into medical school in the USA. I am exploring other prospects, such as Ireland, Australia, the Caribbean etc.

FOr the sake of argument: lets say I go to Australia, and study as an international student there, alongside many australian nationals. When I come out would I be a "lesser" student in your eyes than someone who studied in their own country and then emigrated to the USA? WHy? I studied right there along with people inside of their own country? DIdn't I get the same education?

Once again I am not trying to attack you. If you want you can PM me the answer. I am genuinely interested in whatever argument you may have, and it may help me in deciding if I should pursue medicine any further.

Cheers,

Silenthunder

 

[Skip Intro]

silenthunder:

He can't/won't answer your question because he is a narcissistic, xenophobic elitist who believes that, despite the fact that almost 25% of all practicing physicians in the U.S. are foreign trained, anyone who did not go to a U.S. allopathic school is not entitled to practice medicine.



-Skip
MSIII RUSM
Currently clerking at a U.S. hospital side-by-side with U.S. medical students

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Originally posted by Skip Intro
silenthunder:

He can't/won't answer your question because he is a narcissistic, xenophobic elitist who believes that, despite the fact that almost 25% of all practicing physicians in the U.S. are foreign trained, anyone who did not go to a U.S. allopathic school is not entitled to practice medicine.



-Skip
MSIII RUSM
Currently clerking at a U.S. hospital side-by-side with U.S. medical students

Not true, as I have said there is a difference between med school rejects like Skippy who had to basically flee to diploma factories set-up on some third world island that have very easy admissions standards in order to attract low-quality students from legitamite IMGs who could actually get into *real* med schools in their home countries (which often have admissions standards and education superior to those found in the USA) and then decided to come practice in America.

Skippy keeps mentioning that he is doing a "clerkship at a U.S. hospital side-by-side with U.S. medical students" as if to imply there is no difference between Carib students like himself and real U.S. med students. If there wasn't, then why do *most* Carib graduates have to settle for residencies at uncompetetive programs and locations? It is most likely that PDs know that the quality of students coming out of these schools is pretty low and they know they can get better graduates in their programs. Somebody else asked Skippy this very same question and he ignored it and immediately changed the subject because it touched a nerve. Fact is there *is* a big difference between Carib graduates who basically purchase their degrees from these island schools and real graduates who actually *earn* a place at real med schools and work for their degrees. Just do an internet search on bogus Carib schools that have been caught selling degrees and then shut down only to reappear on a different island under a different name.

 

[Apollyon]

"ArrogantSurgeon" has already been banned once on SDN under another name. His method of operation is "hit and run" - level a charge, unsupported by evidence, and, when rebutted, not respond - especially when pressed for sources for his extreme claims. He apparently spends as much time in the International Forum as Surgery and Surgical Specialties, and is very abrasive towards anyone he feels is not worthy of his time. This has included: residents, USFMG's, IMG's, DO's, RN's, LPN's, EMT's, and paramedics. He himself is apparently a 4th year student at the University of Washington. He uses the word "denial" often, in that people that defend themselves or a point he criticizes are accused of being in denial about the topic. If you refer to him as a troll (in that he "trolls around", like a fisherman, looking for a good spot to bait his hook), he will accuse you of being the troll.

If you respond to him, he will continue his tirades with his agenda. It is unknown whether he is doing this simply for attention, or if he really believes so stridently in what he writes. For evidence of his attempts to divert a thread, this is one; here is another pertaining to the death of Bob Hope:

The Great Legend Has Passed On.....

If you are looking for reasoned point and counterpoint, it may be difficult to engage in a dialogue with him.

 

[spinestudent]

arrogant surgeon.....Yes, 98% of US students at ross or SGU "failed" to get into a US school. Most of these failed because of low grades/mcat scores. Everyone agrees on that. Just like everyone agrees that IMG's are at a huge disadvantage compared to AMG's come match time. Now, on to your other "points".....

-I seriously doubt anyone who goes to ross or sgu feels that they were "given" their diploma. People at Ross and SGU study...LOTS. Just as much as most american medical students. (I hesitate to say more than most US students because I feel that carrib students sometimes underestimate the studying done by AMG's). All medical school students study a lot.

-You keep talking about this difference between US IMGS and non-US IMGS. Difference according to who??? You? Your assumptions of what patients think? From what everyone says and looking at match lists and going to residency program web sites, it appears that the really superstar indian foreign grads who went to med school in their own country do have more success at very competitive residencies. However, US IMG's have a better match rate overall than non-US IMG's. If you want to compare the match rate of the average graduating student at Ross/SGU to the average graduating student at a med school in India, it's not even close. It's essentially 98% vs. 40%. If you want to compare the #'s of IMG's in decent university based IM programs, you will find many more americans. And I suspect those indians who math ortho anywhere or IM at Penn really had incredible board scores.....250+. If you look at people from SGU/Ross with 250+, they will either transfer to a US program or more likely end up with a good(maybe not superstar) residency. But I'm pretty sure 3.9/145 Ross grads aren't worried about doing IM in unknown community hospitals.

-Out of all the US IMG's, you seem to have a special disdain for carribean students. Do you think that americans in Australian and Irish schools are over there because they just wanted to experience life in Ireland or Australia for a few years? Of course not. In 90% of cases, they went because they were rejected from
US schools. Sure, they may not take the 2.9/20 students that Ross will, but those 2.9/20 students have a very good chance at failing out of Ross anyways. Many Ross/SGU students could have gone to Australia or Ireland, but they choose not to because they want to go to a med school specifically designed for getting a US residency. And Australian and Irish students are still going to face many of the same struggles carribean students well concerning bias and the TOEFL, CSA, etc.....plus they will have to set up their own clinicals and constantly travel from one site to another, perhaps moving as many as 6(?) times if they want to do most or all of their elective clinicals in the US. I know that many ross students(the better ones) are able to do all of their clinicals at one site now.

-As for the bogus carribean schools that are constantly opening and closing....could you be more specific? Ross, AUC, and SGU have been around over 25 years now. Same name throughout. As for the other carribean schools, I don't think there is much disagreement on this forum that prospective carribean students should only consider going to SGU or Ross(maybe AUC??). If the school hasn't consistently shown that virtually of their students who make it through the preclinical years do their rotations consecutively in the US and get US residencies, then they are not an option. SGU and Ross certainly meet that standard(98% and 97% match rates) Not once have I heard you differentiate schools in the carribean, and I think that's ridiculous to lump SGU/Ross in with Spartan, Grace, St. whatever, etc......Sure, in many ways a carrib grad is a carrib grad is a carrib grad, but schools like Spartan don't seem to be producing many grads who pass the USMLE and go on to do US clinicals consecutively.

Finally, you seem to be under the impression that people all over the US feel sorry and are laughing at liscenced physicians from Ross and SGU. Try to picture the following scenario:

34 years old. Live in a medium sized city. Work as a IM doctor in a medium size outpatient practice. Go to local hospital and consult on admitted patients occasionally. Work 50-55 hrs/week. Make 150-160k.

To me, that's not a scary picture. If someone feels that it is, then they probably shouldn't go the IMG route because it has a very good chance of coming true. I would not be ashamed if that was the outcome of my professional career. Do you really think most people(outside of some in the medical community) are laughing at physicians in the above situation? If you do, you really need a reality check. Most community IM physicians have earned a great deal of respect in the community. They make more than 95% of all workers in the richest country in the world. But you paint practicing US IMGs as these hopeless losers that everyone is laughing at......which is just not realistic.

 

[awdc]

Originally posted by ArrogantSurgeon
Fact is there *is* a big difference between Carib graduates who basically purchase their degrees from these island schools and real graduates who actually *earn* a place at real med schools and work for their degrees. Just do an internet search on bogus Carib schools that have been caught selling degrees and then shut down only to reappear on a different island under a different name.

Oh boy, this guy is really asking for it, huh? From docs that I've talked to, Ross and SGU students really had to work their butts off cause they know there is so much more at stake. Not to mention the hurdles they have to go through adjusting to life in a foreign country. Don't let this guy discourage you if you ever find yourself having to go the Carribean route to fulfill your dream. Do your homework and IMO, stick with SGU or Ross. I had a couple docs (U.S. MD grads) tell me that they're not so bad and I should consider the Carribean if I can't get into a U.S. school. But definitely know what you're getting into before doing so (which I think most people who visit this forum already know).

On a side note, it's kinda sad that someone as abrasive and disrespectful as ArrogantSurgeon was allowed in med school.

 

[poly]

Originally posted by awdc

On a side note, it's kinda sad that someone as abrasive and disrespectful as ArrogantSurgeon was allowed in med school.

Well, there you go. That's US med school for you!

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Originally posted by awdc
On a side note, it's kinda sad that someone as abrasive and disrespectful as ArrogantSurgeon was allowed in med school.

So now I'm "abrasive" and "disrespectful" because I criticize diploma factories pretending to be real med schools? Do you really want a doctor treating you or your family who basically bought admissions to a so-called med school and maybe even bought his way through? Are you willing to have somebody you care for be treated by a doctor who couldn't get into a real med school and had to crawl into the U.S. medical system through the back window? Not everybody who wants to be a doctor should be allowed to be one, but unfortuantely these diploma factories will let anybody who can sign a check buy a medical degree.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Originally posted by ArrogantSurgeon
So now I'm "abrasive" and "disrespectful" because I criticize diploma factories pretending to be real med schools? Do you really want a doctor treating you or your family who basically bought admissions to a so-called med school and maybe even bought his way through? Are you willing to have somebody you care for be treated by a doctor who couldn't get into a real med school and had to crawl into the U.S. medical system through the back window? Not everybody who wants to be a doctor should be allowed to be one, but unfortuantely these diploma factories will let anybody who can sign a check buy a medical degree.

No, I wouldn't want a doctor who bought their degree from a degree mill treating my family. I also wouldn't want an ignorant ***** treating them, either.

You're neither funny nor are you contributing to human society in any meaningful way. Please crawl back into your hole and die.

 

[Leukocyte]

Ross University a diploma factory?

I agree that Ross admits some weak less than qualified students (probably for some financial reasons). But believe me, the tough curriculum at Ross makes sure that only the most qualified and most motivated students will get to have M.D. behind their name.

Ross might accept ?anybody?, but not anybody who gets accepted to Ross will graduate.

If you are not smart enough to become a doctor, there is NO WAY you will graduate from Ross.

PEACE

Leuk.

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Originally posted by JKDMed
No, I wouldn't want a doctor who bought their degree from a degree mill treating my family. I also wouldn't want an ignorant ***** treating them, either.

You're neither funny nor are you contributing to human society in any meaningful way. Please crawl back into your hole and die.

Great response.

Where have I been even close to "ignorant"? These island schools are known to be a haven for students who weren't good enough to get into real med schools and had to buy their way into such pseudo-medical schools. Just because the truth is unkind does not mean it should not be told. Ask yourself the question as to why these students had to settle for Carib schools. The only plausible answer is that they were not good enough to get into a real med school. Why do you really think schools like this exist? Because there are scores of med school rejects every year that will act as customers for these schools.

 

[spinestudent]

Arrogant surgeon, what is your step 1 score? Part of me hopes you bombed it and cant match into a surgical subspecialty or a prestigous general surgery program and end up matching at a lower-mid level university surgery program. Maybe there will even be a few IMG's in that program...that would be a riot.

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Originally posted by Leukocyte
If you are not smart enough to become a doctor, there is NO WAY you will graduate from Ross.

If they are smart enough then why didn't they get into a real med school?