Questions about UQ School of Med (Domestic Applicant)

[pitman]

My 'data tables' are published information readily available off of Blackboard. It takes not even 30 seconds to access it. It's like you refuse to believe something because it doesn't run in line with your antiquated notions of UQ MBBS.

RE: OBGYN, apparently the head of discipline told examiners to mark more stringently than last year, resulting in a 30% fail rate-scores were then re-scaled but people obviously still failed-probably about 8-10 people instead of the initial 30 or so.

I am glad phloston is here to corroborate what I am saying so I don't need to worry about you and nyb trying to ruin my name just because I tell the truth and it doesn't coo your fragile egos.

Hilarious stuff. So even though (once again) you've offered contradictory claims as your argument shifts, and no evidence backing up your claims on the background of being a proven liar many times over, you still insist on your obviously made up fail rates that don't pass the common sense test. Ok...

I'm curious about another thing, qldking -- you have claimed to be a grad of UQ who's rural. What are you doing on the school's Blackboard system?

You've ruined your name all by yourself by pathologically lying on every thread you've posted to.

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[qldking]

I've only graduated within the last three years and Blackboard (and its mirror site, Moodle) is still accessible.

If you like, I can send you the entire pdf file both for Pediatrics and General Surgery where those slides came from.

It's amusing that a guy who graduated a decade ago and another guy who didn't even do rotations in Australia are assailing someone who actually went through the process recently. You'll notice that phloston is affirming and confirming everything I have said, and he is a current student, The other non-troll posters (e.g. not you or nyb) have confirmed everything I have said about the school.

I'm sick of you trying to ruin my name because I point out absolute facts that don't hold in line with your delusions.

Stick to giving people bad predictions about internships rather than telling recent and current students what the school is all about. You look even worse than you already are.

 

[pitman]

It's amusing that a guy who graduated a decade ago and another guy who didn't even do rotations in Australia are assailing someone who actually went through the process recently. You'll notice that phloston is affirming and confirming everything I have said, and he is a current student, The other non-troll posters (e.g. not you or nyb) have confirmed everything I have said about the school.

I'm sick of you trying to ruin my name because I point out absolute facts that don't hold in line with your delusions.

Stick to giving people bad predictions about internships rather than telling recent and current students what the school is all about. You look even worse than you already are.

Qldking, how many times do people need to link to the many lies you have made in just a few months of being on this forum?? How many half-baked attempts should you be allowed to make to back up any one of your wild factual claims? How many threads have you derailed because of your obsession with UQ..do you care to take a guess? You are a proven obsessed, derailing liar. You are the worst troll this forum has seen in years.

Don't try to claim Phloston agrees with everything you've said. You have a pattern of molding yourself around whatever argument made by whomever that you think you can twist into your singular agenda, and then of pretending otherwise, abandoning them just as easily if doing so serves that agenda.

Phloston has been careful to make sure you can't make that claim, e.g., by agreeing that specific claims need to be properly backed up by reference (which you continue to refuse to do) or by defending nygbrus after you groundlessly called him a mole (yet you continue to defame him -- you HAVE to, in order to save face, because he has revealed so many of your lies).

Phloston agrees with some of your *sentiment*, for his own reasons, and not with your umpteemth unsubstantiated or otherwise bogus claim, or your underlying hatred of what you perceive to be the corporatization of education in Australia that you have admitted is the real issue that drives your obsession. He does not make up data, or latch onto any/every ever-changing insignificant quasi-truth as retrospective justification for his views. And he doesn't derail threads. In short, he is not a troll. You are. And I and others here with reasoned judgments are sick of you.

 

[nybgrus]

I've only graduated within the last three years and Blackboard (and its mirror site, Moodle) is still accessible.

Well, trollyking speaks the truth on this one. I can access the BB and Moodle sites as well. However, after some time perusing I can't find anything that even remotely resembles the sort of tables he's been putting up. And I still find it odd, since I have never seen anything like that while I was a student. Care to tell me where in BB/Moodle you found that data so I can look for myself?

Though regardless of that it still wouldn't actually demonstrate the claim that you keep having to backpedal on:

resulting in a 30% fail rate-scores were then re-scaled but people obviously still failed-probably about 8-10 people instead of the initial 30 or so

It bears repeating that you just backtrack and make up whatever BS you can until you get called out on it.

Because you'd have to demonstrate how many of those fails between clerkships were unique in order to determine the actual overall failure rate. Being utmostly generous to your claim (which we also know is a "fact" you literally just made up out of thin air since you are only now desperately scrambling to provide any evidence that might support your claim... and curiously seem to have access to all the course results and yet only post up a couple of them piecemeal...) it still doesn't quite parse.

But the best part is that even if it did... OK, one point that is rather legitimate. Too many failures. Well, what would the SoM do about such a thing? Oh! I know!

resulting in a 30% fail rate-scores were then re-scaled but people obviously still failed-probably about 8-10 people instead of the initial 30 or so

Oh noes! Some people still failed? Is your argument that nobody should fail, ever? Because in my experience with this program the problem is exactly the opposite of what you seem to be claiming - I've seen way too many dum basses that should never be doctors still manage to make it through just fine. In fact, I'm responding to one such individual right at this moment.

The other non-troll posters (e.g. not you or nyb) have confirmed everything I have said about the school

Really? Care to name those other "non-troll" posters? Phloston is the closest you've got and as Pitman said he is far from a troll and far from your actual POV. Who else?

And funny that. I guess we are pretty successful trolls since people are constantly asking us for our thoughts, completely unsolicited (which is how I found my way to this thread, yet another one you've derailed with trollery). Funny that they don't do that and you have to.... troll SDN for threads to stick your dum bass ideas into.

 

[pitman]

Care to name those other "non-troll" posters? Phloston is the closest you've got and as Pitman said he is far from a troll and far from your actual POV. Who else?

Now don't you be inviting the other trolls to come out of their caves, nybgrus.

 

[nybgrus]

Now don't you be inviting the other trolls to come out of their caves, nybgrus.

LOL. Fair enough.

 

[qldking]

Well, trollyking speaks the truth on this one. I can access the BB and Moodle sites as well. However, after some time perusing I can't find anything that even remotely resembles the sort of tables he's been putting up. And I still find it odd, since I have never seen anything like that while I was a student. Care to tell me where in BB/Moodle you found that data so I can look for myself?

Though regardless of that it still wouldn't actually demonstrate the claim that you keep having to backpedal on:



It bears repeating that you just backtrack and make up whatever BS you can until you get called out on it.

Because you'd have to demonstrate how many of those fails between clerkships were unique in order to determine the actual overall failure rate. Being utmostly generous to your claim (which we also know is a "fact" you literally just made up out of thin air since you are only now desperately scrambling to provide any evidence that might support your claim... and curiously seem to have access to all the course results and yet only post up a couple of them piecemeal...) it still doesn't quite parse.

But the best part is that even if it did... OK, one point that is rather legitimate. Too many failures. Well, what would the SoM do about such a thing? Oh! I know!



Oh noes! Some people still failed? Is your argument that nobody should fail, ever? Because in my experience with this program the problem is exactly the opposite of what you seem to be claiming - I've seen way too many dum basses that should never be doctors still manage to make it through just fine. In fact, I'm responding to one such individual right at this moment.



Really? Care to name those other "non-troll" posters? Phloston is the closest you've got and as Pitman said he is far from a troll and far from your actual POV. Who else?

And funny that. I guess we are pretty successful trolls since people are constantly asking us for our thoughts, completely unsolicited (which is how I found my way to this thread, yet another one you've derailed with trollery). Funny that they don't do that and you have to.... troll SDN for threads to stick your dum bass ideas into.

For General Surgery, click the Surgery rotation-->learning resources-->core lectures-->introduction to the year (pdf), its slide 72 of 73

For pediatrics, go to pediatrics--> assessment-->assessment lecture and it is slide 41 of 49

 

[sean80439]

I'm sorry I have to jump in here. For GS, out of 470 students, 1 failed. What is your point?

 

[sean80439]

Oh right, I forgot to mention, that was from that slide that you mentioned as your source.

 

[qldking]

I'm sorry I have to jump in here. For GS, out of 470 students, 1 failed. What is your point?

Are you illiterate? 13 people outright failed in 2012 and 54 had to re-sit the exam.

First I have people claiming my data isn't real; now it's people who can't even interpret a basic set of data. Is this site being taken over by the ******s?

 

[pitman]

Sean an illiterate ******? Absent a pattern (of, say, "******ed"-like or trolling behavior), I would have thought it more likely that he's guilty of a typo. As in 13, or 2.7%, failed in 2012. Or, since we're talking about trends, an aggregate of 2.6% failed the term over the three years. As this is a very low and reasonable percentage, and given your track-record of lying, one might indeed reasonably ask, "What is your point, qldking?"

 

[sean80439]

Ugh, why did I even bother engaging with you. You are a waste of my time. I hope your career is filled with failure and disappointment.

 

[sean80439]

Students
410 (2010)
443 (2011)
479 (2012)
470 (2013)

Did not complete
1
2
0
0

Supplementaries
10 (2.4%)
24 (5%)
54 (11%)
17 (3.6%)

Fails
2 (0.5%)
19 (4%)
13 (2.7%)
1 (0.2%)

Since I can't post the table easily. Oh hey, 1 out of 470 failed....

 

[singmed15]

Ok, maybe it's time we redirect this thread in another direction...qldking, I think you're getting a bit outvoted here. I understand what you're getting at, and certainly some years the fail/supplemental rate is a bit worse than others, but I hardly see a catastrophe here either way. Call me myopic, but I'm almost positive you could see similar rotational failure rates in US med schools, and in the US that will bite you in the a**, or so I've been told.

@Phloston, thanks a lot for your offer regarding the Ob/Gyn physician, I agree that I should definitely get his contact details from you, probably after I actually start med school a couple months!

I read your USMLE guide out of curiosity (it was really impressive!), and wanted to ask you about the textbooks selections you made. From just the perspective of gaining knowledge and competency, could similar substitutions for textbooks be made even if one weren't taking the USMLE?

For example, you mention that you stopped reading Robbins Pathology in favor of another book (name eludes me now unfortunately). Was that just because of the USMLE, or do you think the switch is just useful to learn path better in general?

Everyone else, feel free to chip in if you have some suggestions regarding books and the like.

 

[Phloston]

Ok, maybe it's time we redirect this thread in another direction...qldking, I think you're getting a bit outvoted here. I understand what you're getting at, and certainly some years the fail/supplemental rate is a bit worse than others, but I hardly see a catastrophe here either way. Call me myopic, but I'm almost positive you could see similar rotational failure rates in US med schools, and in the US that will bite you in the a**, or so I've been told.

@Phloston, thanks a lot for your offer regarding the Ob/Gyn physician, I agree that I should definitely get his contact details from you, probably after I actually start med school a couple months!

I read your USMLE guide out of curiosity (it was really impressive!), and wanted to ask you about the textbooks selections you made. From just the perspective of gaining knowledge and competency, could similar substitutions for textbooks be made even if one weren't taking the USMLE?

For example, you mention that you stopped reading Robbins Pathology in favor of another book (name eludes me now unfortunately). Was that just because of the USMLE, or do you think the switch is just useful to learn path better in general?

Everyone else, feel free to chip in if you have some suggestions regarding books and the like.

It's hard to say what's ideal as the years roll on because resources keep evolving. For instance, I never once touched/laid eyes on Pathoma, but if you ask most med students, that's what they tend to prefer as a path resource. I'm a bit old school though. Seriously. I still have a flip phone that doesn't have internet and can't take/receive photos. I used BRS Pathology, University of Utah Webpath and lots of QBank questions to get my path to its current state (which is probably one of my best subjects). I can't comment entirely on non-USMLE resources, since the "definition" of any non-USMLE resource is just one that isn't particularly concise for med school purposes (i.e., you don't have to think just because you're domestic and might not take the USMLE that you shouldn't use those resources; they are in fact just really solid compendiums of info for med school). Using Big Robbins as a primary resource is a Big Rookie error actually. Getting through med school isn't about knowing hyper-specific verbal descriptions of histology; each chapter in Robbins could really just be summarized in a couple pages probably, which is why BRS Path is much better. But if you want to "top up" with Robbins after you've covered the basics, then that's a bit more prudent. IIRC, @nybgrus may have been the one to first tell me about BRS Path and University of Utah Webpath. He and I probably used the resources a bit differently, as I know he was fairly assiduous across the board, but he might be able to offer you some helpful advice too.

 

[pitman]

...
Fails
2 (0.5%)
19 (4%)
13 (2.7%)
1 (0.2%)

So with the addition of 2013 results, that's a 4-year total fail rate of...1.9%.
I apologize for accusing you of typoing .

 

[nybgrus]

Students
410 (2010)
443 (2011)
479 (2012)
470 (2013)

Did not complete
1
2
0
0

Supplementaries
10 (2.4%)
24 (5%)
54 (11%)
17 (3.6%)

Fails
2 (0.5%)
19 (4%)
13 (2.7%)
1 (0.2%)

Since I can't post the table easily. Oh hey, 1 out of 470 failed....

Thanks for chiming in Sean. I actually hadn't had the time to go through and check stuff myself on BB since trollytroll mentioned it, so thanks for saving me the work.

 

[nybgrus]

It's hard to say what's ideal as the years roll on because resources keep evolving. For instance, I never once touched/laid eyes on Pathoma, but if you ask most med students, that's what they tend to prefer as a path resource. I'm a bit old school though. Seriously. I still have a flip phone that doesn't have internet and can't take/receive photos. I used BRS Pathology, University of Utah Webpath and lots of QBank questions to get my path to its current state (which is probably one of my best subjects). I can't comment entirely on non-USMLE resources, since the "definition" of any non-USMLE resource is just one that isn't particularly concise for med school purposes (i.e., you don't have to think just because you're domestic and might not take the USMLE that you shouldn't use those resources; they are in fact just really solid compendiums of info for med school). Using Big Robbins as a primary resource is a Big Rookie error actually. Getting through med school isn't about knowing hyper-specific verbal descriptions of histology; each chapter in Robbins could really just be summarized in a couple pages probably, which is why BRS Path is much better. But if you want to "top up" with Robbins after you've covered the basics, then that's a bit more prudent. IIRC, @nybgrus may have been the one to first tell me about BRS Path and University of Utah Webpath. He and I probably used the resources a bit differently, as I know he was fairly assiduous across the board, but he might be able to offer you some helpful advice too.

My personal take on resources is that there is essentially resource overload. Most of the different series (BRS, Pathoma, Goljan, Made Ridiculously Easy, High Yield, etc) basically cover the same exact topics. It basically all boils down to personal preference. My best friend (who matched into a top 10 ophthal program and is a US grad) loved the Made Ridiculously Easy series. I couldn't stand it. I much preferred BRS for just about everything. However, I happened to really like the HY on neuro and (for some reason unknown to anyone, myself included) really liked Dudek's 2nd Edition of Embryology. Whatever you happen to like reading the most is, IMHO, the best resource.

I also agree with Phloston - I never once cracked Robbins (big or little) nor Harrison's. Way, way, way too much info that is also not really up to date. I actually sort of think that most textbooks are pretty useless. By the time the get written, edited, published, and distributed even the new edition is still a little out of date. The condensed versions are much more efficient to get the basics and then from there I always just read whatever new articles were out on a topic I wanted to explore further. There are some exceptions, but in general you wouldn't read a text to read it but to deeply explore the finer details of a specific topic that interests you more. Like how I spent 5 hours poring over Lehninger's 4th ed Biochem in order to fully understand why the stuff they teach you about diabetes and DKA is actually wrong*. In fact the only text I have actually read cover to cover is Marino's The ICU Book because I love the ICU and am going into critical care and it is a really solid basic foundation on critical care medicine. It is like all of the BRS series combined into a single book and focused only on critical care medicine. So, highly recommend if you are at all interested in CC. Contrast this with Hall, Schmidt, and Wood's Principles of Critical Care Medicine which is basically the CC version of Harrison's which I would never read straight through, but I use for in depth learning on specific topics.

My habits of reading new articles rather than texts actually garnered me a reputation for being "that guy" that was always really up to date. I had people I'd never seen before come up to me in the halls and comment on it and ask me about some random thing.

*Well, technically wrong. It is a sort of shortcut to make things easier to remember, and is close enough for damn near any clinical purpose, but is still actually wrong. Same thing about when you learn the glucose differences between bacterial and viral meningitis.

 

[Phloston]

My personal take on resources is that there is essentially resource overload. Most of the different series (BRS, Pathoma, Goljan, Made Ridiculously Easy, High Yield, etc) basically cover the same exact topics. It basically all boils down to personal preference. My best friend (who matched into a top 10 ophthal program and is a US grad) loved the Made Ridiculously Easy series. I couldn't stand it. I much preferred BRS for just about everything. However, I happened to really like the HY on neuro and (for some reason unknown to anyone, myself included) really liked Dudek's 2nd Edition of Embryology. Whatever you happen to like reading the most is, IMHO, the best resource.

I also agree with Phloston - I never once cracked Robbins (big or little) nor Harrison's. Way, way, way too much info that is also not really up to date. I actually sort of think that most textbooks are pretty useless. By the time the get written, edited, published, and distributed even the new edition is still a little out of date. The condensed versions are much more efficient to get the basics and then from there I always just read whatever new articles were out on a topic I wanted to explore further. There are some exceptions, but in general you wouldn't read a text to read it but to deeply explore the finer details of a specific topic that interests you more. Like how I spent 5 hours poring over Lehninger's 4th ed Biochem in order to fully understand why the stuff they teach you about diabetes and DKA is actually wrong*. In fact the only text I have actually read cover to cover is Marino's The ICU Book because I love the ICU and am going into critical care and it is a really solid basic foundation on critical care medicine. It is like all of the BRS series combined into a single book and focused only on critical care medicine. So, highly recommend if you are at all interested in CC. Contrast this with Hall, Schmidt, and Wood's Principles of Critical Care Medicine which is basically the CC version of Harrison's which I would never read straight through, but I use for in depth learning on specific topics.

My habits of reading new articles rather than texts actually garnered me a reputation for being "that guy" that was always really up to date. I had people I'd never seen before come up to me in the halls and comment on it and ask me about some random thing.

*Well, technically wrong. It is a sort of shortcut to make things easier to remember, and is close enough for damn near any clinical purpose, but is still actually wrong. Same thing about when you learn the glucose differences between bacterial and viral meningitis.

I'd be curious as to why you chose critical care / ICU actually. One of the psychiatrists on my mental health rotation told me that he saw me going into critical care / ICU (which I found a bit random and specific), but that's not something I'd ever thought about before. Bc IIRC, you had a 4th-yr elective, not the critical care rotation, during your last year, right? But yeah, would be curious as to what led you to this interest.

 

[nybgrus]

I'd be curious as to why you chose critical care / ICU actually. One of the psychiatrists on my mental health rotation told me that he saw me going into critical care / ICU (which I found a bit random and specific), but that's not something I'd ever thought about before. Bc IIRC, you had a 4th-yr elective, not the critical care rotation, during your last year, right? But yeah, would be curious as to what led you to this interest.

Well, I did end up doing 12 weeks of critical care during M4 year. By the time I graduated I had done 18 central lines and over 30 art lines along with a smattering of paracentesis, thoracentesis, chest tubes, and parts of bronchoscopies. I spent 4 weeks in neurocritical care, then 4 in medical ICU. Then Spec 1 and then 2 weeks more neurocritical care and 2 weeks neurosurgery as part of Spec 2. But I was pretty sure I'd want to do critical care by the end of M3.

The real why is probably much too long and boring so I'll just give the highlights. I found I really enjoyed medicine. I also found that while surgery was fun and I really did enjoy doing it, especially neurosurgery where they basically offered me a spot if I would apply*, it simply wasn't for me. But I like doing procedures and I am rather good at them. I'm well over 30 central lines now and I go on my downtime to the ICU to be a line monkey from time to time. And then I happened to be doing sepsis research starting M3 year. And I started to find the topic fascinating. And I began learning a lot about it and really like it. Plus, the field aligns with my side interest which is space and cosmology. My fiance is an aerospace engineer for Lockheed doing NASA work on the Space Launch System (the rocket that will be carrying the Orion capsule, which was supposed to be test launched today on a Delta V heavy but was postponed till tomorrow) and I like cosmology anyways, so I found out that CC/Pulm and even sepsis specifically align with the long term deep space missions. So I became a member of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics and attend their monthly meeting with my fiance and we discuss space travel and the biology and medicine of it. I would like to do an elective at NASA Johnson in Houston in space medicine, but the program is on "temporary" hold and not accepting applicants because of budget cuts.

But I digress. I also love the work and the really higher order thinking that is involved in it. Your patients often become live physiology labs, like what Hardy Ernst would set up but about a trillion times more awesome. And you can tweak all sorts of physiological setpoints and get people through grave illness. But I also enjoy the palliative side of it (and will be doing my elective next year in palliative/hospice and am planning on a palliative fellowship), because even when we can't save the patient we can still treat the family in what is a singularly important and tragic time in their lives. Having the mother of a 25 year old that died manage to thank me for all I'd done is profoundly humbling and gratifying. So is the daughter thanking me for literally running to get blood for her father and saving his life.

The field simply encompasses so much of what is medicine, all in one, with a lot of possibility for procedural work makes it what I love to do. It is where the true science and the true humanism of medicine meet at a level few other specialties have. I'd reckon cards is probably the only one that may surpass CC/pulm in that regard. I am also thinking of doing an interventional bronchology fellowship (yes, 3 fellowships for now... 8 years total. Still, it actually saves me money on loans to be in training longer so... why not?)

*Every day of my second week the attendings asked if I'd applied and that if I did they would be very happy to have me. I was co-surgeron and first assist on a number of spine surgeries, including 1st assist on an ACDF to repair traumatic C5 fracture. And I was also primary on a hemicraniotomy, doing around 85% of it from start to finish. To say it was tempting is putting it mildly. But I just couldn't see myself in the OR day after day after day.

 

[Phloston]

Well, I did end up doing 12 weeks of critical care during M4 year. By the time I graduated I had done 18 central lines and over 30 art lines along with a smattering of paracentesis, thoracentesis, chest tubes, and parts of bronchoscopies. I spent 4 weeks in neurocritical care, then 4 in medical ICU. Then Spec 1 and then 2 weeks more neurocritical care and 2 weeks neurosurgery as part of Spec 2. But I was pretty sure I'd want to do critical care by the end of M3.

The real why is probably much too long and boring so I'll just give the highlights. I found I really enjoyed medicine. I also found that while surgery was fun and I really did enjoy doing it, especially neurosurgery where they basically offered me a spot if I would apply*, it simply wasn't for me. But I like doing procedures and I am rather good at them. I'm well over 30 central lines now and I go on my downtime to the ICU to be a line monkey from time to time. And then I happened to be doing sepsis research starting M3 year. And I started to find the topic fascinating. And I began learning a lot about it and really like it. Plus, the field aligns with my side interest which is space and cosmology. My fiance is an aerospace engineer for Lockheed doing NASA work on the Space Launch System (the rocket that will be carrying the Orion capsule, which was supposed to be test launched today on a Delta V heavy but was postponed till tomorrow) and I like cosmology anyways, so I found out that CC/Pulm and even sepsis specifically align with the long term deep space missions. So I became a member of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics and attend their monthly meeting with my fiance and we discuss space travel and the biology and medicine of it. I would like to do an elective at NASA Johnson in Houston in space medicine, but the program is on "temporary" hold and not accepting applicants because of budget cuts.

But I digress. I also love the work and the really higher order thinking that is involved in it. Your patients often become live physiology labs, like what Hardy Ernst would set up but about a trillion times more awesome. And you can tweak all sorts of physiological setpoints and get people through grave illness. But I also enjoy the palliative side of it (and will be doing my elective next year in palliative/hospice and am planning on a palliative fellowship), because even when we can't save the patient we can still treat the family in what is a singularly important and tragic time in their lives. Having the mother of a 25 year old that died manage to thank me for all I'd done is profoundly humbling and gratifying. So is the daughter thanking me for literally running to get blood for her father and saving his life.

The field simply encompasses so much of what is medicine, all in one, with a lot of possibility for procedural work makes it what I love to do. It is where the true science and the true humanism of medicine meet at a level few other specialties have. I'd reckon cards is probably the only one that may surpass CC/pulm in that regard. I am also thinking of doing an interventional bronchology fellowship (yes, 3 fellowships for now... 8 years total. Still, it actually saves me money on loans to be in training longer so... why not?)

*Every day of my second week the attendings asked if I'd applied and that if I did they would be very happy to have me. I was co-surgeron and first assist on a number of spine surgeries, including 1st assist on an ACDF to repair traumatic C5 fracture. And I was also primary on a hemicraniotomy, doing around 85% of it from start to finish. To say it was tempting is putting it mildly. But I just couldn't see myself in the OR day after day after day.

Sounds like you've got some good experience under your belt that has helped you piece together what you're most passionate about. Speaking of deep space stuff/training (love how we've completely derailed the purpose of this thread), you should look into being a part of the yearly team (of 13 or so people) that goes down to Dome Concordia (Dome C) for the DC11-2015 winter-over (i.e., if you and the wife can handle the deep freeze).

 

[qldking]

Just don't say you weren't warned when this goes down in your clinical years. Don't go complaining when you heard the truth right here.

 

[Phloston]

Just don't say you weren't warned when this goes down in your clinical years. Don't go complaining when you heard the truth right here.

Whom are you talking to?

 

[qldking]

I was directing that towards the guy who created this topic, because he's now inclined to believe the words of nyb and pitman.

I'm saying this because I often encounter 3rd/4th year hotshots who think they can play the game and then end up failing a rotation off their own hubris.

 

[sean80439]

How have you not been banned yet? You literally lie about everything. I feel for anyone that receives treatment from you.

 

[nybgrus]

Sounds like you've got some good experience under your belt that has helped you piece together what you're most passionate about. Speaking of deep space stuff/training (love how we've completely derailed the purpose of this thread), you should look into being a part of the yearly team (of 13 or so people) that goes down to Dome Concordia (Dome C) for the DC11-2015 winter-over (i.e., if you and the wife can handle the deep freeze).

Yeah, it really has boiled down to experiences I've had. And a number of hard back and forths and some random fortune (like meeting my fiance and having our disparate passions find a way to align). There were myriad experiences of course, but I did forget to mention one other rather important one - I worked as a tech in a Level 1 trauma center for 3.5 years of nights before starting med school. I was on the trauma and code teams, as well as taught the orthopedics splinting and wound care classes for hospital wide skills days. For a while I really thought I'd go into ED, but it was more the acuity, the rush, and the "do whatever it takes to get the job done" aspects that I liked rather than the actual medicine practiced. I found that those things also abound in CC so that took care of that.

The real advice I give to med students trying to think of a specialty is basically to employ the scientific method. Don't go through rotations and experience the (admittedly) cool stuff and then retrofit the specialty to you, instead try to think about what makes you tick, what you like to do on your days off, what common themes among the different rotations really got you going, and then take that data and apply it to a best fit of a specialty. Because medicine is just awesome and fun, so there will always be something you like about just about any rotation. And a particularly passionate and charismatic attending or resident can lead you to focus on the parts you like to the exclusion of the parts that would make it a poor career choice for you. And vice versa, a particularly crappy and miserable one can lead you astray from a specialty that would otherwise have been an excellent choice for you. These factors are difficult, if not impossible, to completely control for but if one recognizes they are there and tries to be honest and rigorous about his or her analysis of a field and him or herself, I'd say that is the best chance of finding a field you will be truly happy in and passionate about. The other nice part is that for the most part things can be divvied up into medicine or surgery and that gives you more time to continue the process to determine what fellowship will be best for you. Obviously deciding on something like rads, or gas, or ophthal, derm, etc doesn't give quite the same flexibility but at least approaching things from you outward rather than rotation inward is a good starting point.

As for Dome C - thanks for the rec. I'll look into it. Winter is most definitely not our cup o' tea, but for something like that may prove rather worthwhile.

 

[nybgrus]

I was directing that towards the guy who created this topic, because he's now inclined to believe the words of nyb and pitman.

I'm saying this because I often encounter 3rd/4th year hotshots who think they can play the game and then end up failing a rotation off their own hubris.

Well then maybe that is advice not to be a hotshot jacka$$ like you.

 

[pitman]

So, the moral is...Don't be a hotshot a$$ thinking you can get away with playing a game with med school, or you'll end up failing a clinical term or two due to your own hubris. Excellent advice I think we can all agree on.

 

[singmed15]

So, the moral is...Don't be a hotshot a$$ thinking you can get away with playing a game with med school, or you'll end up failing a clinical term or two due to your own hubris. Excellent advice I think we can all agree on.

Haha, well I'll keep that in mind. Thanks again to you all for answering my questions, and I do apologize on my delay for responding to these posts.

@nybgrus: Out of curiosity, you mention employing an objective approach to selecting a specialty when in med school, but how much exposure can you really get in rotations, in your experience?

Also, I had a question regarding supplies and materials for med school. Aside from textbooks, is there anything that you recommend buying before it starts?

Finally, to the international students (from the US/Canada), what do you generally recommend bringing in from the US? If there's a thread that discusses this at length, please direct me to it.

 

[nybgrus]

Haha, well I'll keep that in mind. Thanks again to you all for answering my questions, and I do apologize on my delay for responding to these posts.

@nybgrus: Out of curiosity, you mention employing an objective approach to selecting a specialty when in med school, but how much exposure can you really get in rotations, in your experience?

Also, I had a question regarding supplies and materials for med school. Aside from textbooks, is there anything that you recommend buying before it starts?

Finally, to the international students (from the US/Canada), what do you generally recommend bringing in from the US? If there's a thread that discusses this at length, please direct me to it.

As I said, you will never be able to actually do it properly. But you should strive to. You will have plenty of exposure but never enough. But if you work hard at it, you can get a lot.

Don't buy textbooks. You don't need to. I have not bought a textbook since junior year of undergrad. You'll need a laptop and/or tablet, stethoscope. Beyond that a few things you can pick up in Oz.

As for what to bring from the US and materials, OMSA has a Brisbane guide that outlines all that stuff. Just ask MEP for it.

 

[singmed15]

As I said, you will never be able to actually do it properly. But you should strive to. You will have plenty of exposure but never enough. But if you work hard at it, you can get a lot.

Don't buy textbooks. You don't need to. I have not bought a textbook since junior year of undergrad. You'll need a laptop and/or tablet, stethoscope. Beyond that a few things you can pick up in Oz.

As for what to bring from the US and materials, OMSA has a Brisbane guide that outlines all that stuff. Just ask MEP for it.

Okay, thanks for the advice. Could you please provide me a link to the OMSA you described? I tried a google search, but nothing turns up matching your description. Also, I don't know who MEP is.

As a follow on question, is it possible for domestic students at UQ to rotate at UQ-Oschner? Just curious.

 

[mcat_taker]

Hey everyone!

I recently got accepted to UQ, for their MD program starting next year. I've searched the forum topics here, but there were some questions I had that either weren't asked previously, needed further clarification, or were answered 5+ years ago. To provide some background, I am a dual citizen and was accepted as a domestic applicant, but live in the US, hence the lack of some on the ground information. Although I appreciate anyone's comments, I would especially like to hear from those who have gone/graduated from UQ.

1. When moving to Brisbane, how did you go about finding accommodation? What are the most student-friendly (cheapest) suburbs that are close by to UQ St. Lucia?

2. How do you go about finding roommates? I would prefer having med school roommates, but am not sure how to go about finding them. I understand there's a facebook page for the domestic students, but I gather that many of them have already arranged their living situation or stay with their parents (please correct me if I am wrong!). Is there a similar group for international students?

3. How are the program years broken down? Do you spend the first 2 years at St. Lucia, and then move to Herston, or is it a kind of back and forth situation?

4. How is the quality of the education at the school? I understand that all schools have their problems, but is there anything seriously wrong that would not prepare you for internship in Australia?

These next questions are directed more towards those who have graduated and are practicing in Australia...

5. What is the job market like for consultant level physicians? Are there large variances depending on specialty?

6. What is the situation with acquiring specialist training? Are there sufficient positions for people to find accredited registrar level training, or is it extremely competitive regardless of field?

I thank anyone in advance for responding, and do apologize if this information is available in another thread. If you could, please direct me to it if this is the case.

@singmed15 just out of curiosity, were you eligible for both UQ domestic and UQ-ochsner as a dual citizen? I take it you want to eventually work in Australia and not the US?

 

[singmed15]

@singmed15 just out of curiosity, were you eligible for both UQ domestic and UQ-ochsner as a dual citizen? I take it you want to eventually work in Australia and not the US?

Officially speaking no. If you're a domestic, you have to apply domestic. Of course, I suppose a dual citizen could just never declare their dual citizenship? How would they know either way?

Regardless, pragmatically it makes far more sense to go domestic. As for practice location, I'm perfectly fine with either place. They both have pros and cons, and the job outlook is more or less the same for both countries. However, I figure if I can keep more opportunities open, why not?

 

[nybgrus]

Okay, thanks for the advice. Could you please provide me a link to the OMSA you described? I tried a google search, but nothing turns up matching your description. Also, I don't know who MEP is.

As a follow on question, is it possible for domestic students at UQ to rotate at UQ-Oschner? Just curious.

OMSA. MEP is MedEdPath. The application handling service.

Yes, traddies (as we call them) do rotate at Ochsner. They can do (IIRC) 2 rotations at Ochsner

 

[nybgrus]

Officially speaking no. If you're a domestic, you have to apply domestic. Of course, I suppose a dual citizen could just never declare their dual citizenship? How would they know either way?

Regardless, pragmatically it makes far more sense to go domestic. As for practice location, I'm perfectly fine with either place. They both have pros and cons, and the job outlook is more or less the same for both countries. However, I figure if I can keep more opportunities open, why not?

If you can go domestic and are fine staying in Aus, it is probably better to go that route. Tuition is vastly less and you are guaranteed an internship after. You can also still apply for and get a residency in the US (though obviously if that is your desire UQ-O is the better option, but it still exists as an option).

Just a thought.

 

[mcat_taker]

Officially speaking no. If you're a domestic, you have to apply domestic. Of course, I suppose a dual citizen could just never declare their dual citizenship? How would they know either way?

Regardless, pragmatically it makes far more sense to go domestic. As for practice location, I'm perfectly fine with either place. They both have pros and cons, and the job outlook is more or less the same for both countries. However, I figure if I can keep more opportunities open, why not?

@singmed15 @nybgrus Thanks for the info, I only ask because I am also a dual citizen (because my mom was born and raised there), but for all intents and purposes I'm an American (I was born and raised here in the U.S). Am looking to apply next year and wanted to know if the dual citizenship prevented me from applying to UQ-O....I would prefer that program because would want to do residency and practice in the U.S. afterwards, no interest in permanently moving to Aus....

 

[singmed15]

@singmed15 @nybgrus Thanks for the info, I only ask because I am also a dual citizen (because my mom was born and raised there), but for all intents and purposes I'm an American (I was born and raised here in the U.S). Am looking to apply next year and wanted to know if the dual citizenship prevented me from applying to UQ-O....I would prefer that program because would want to do residency and practice in the U.S. afterwards, no interest in permanently moving to Aus....

Ah I see. Couple of things I will say to that though, if you don't mind some advice.

1. At the risk of sounding like an ignoramus, I do not believe UQ-O counts as an American med school, despite having rotations and full accreditation in the US. Therefore, it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference whether you picked UQ or UQ-O as an Australian/US citizen, as with your US citizenship you would still be counted as a AIMG no matter which program you did, at least from a legalistic standpoint, but obviously UQ-O is better in terms of actual exposure to the US system and rotations.

2. To be blunt, you should go to Aus. as a citizen, not an international. Your life will be far easier. Nybgrus pointed out tuition costs (its about 5 times cheaper right now to go to med school), but in addition you get access to student loans (0% interest, for now) Medicare (public universal healthcare), and a guaranteed (for now) job in Australia and possibly be even be able to go to NZ and Singapore, depending on how things are.

3. If you really only want to practice in the US though, stay in the US. Maybe more expensive, but your best bet of doing what you want (specialty-wise) is if you stay here.

Guys, feel free to correct me if I've made any mistakes in my comments.

If you can go domestic and are fine staying in Aus, it is probably better to go that route. Tuition is vastly less and you are guaranteed an internship after. You can also still apply for and get a residency in the US (though obviously if that is your desire UQ-O is the better option, but it still exists as an option).

Just a thought.

Yup, I'm aware of this, although I should point out that my scenario is purely hypothetical. I applied domestically, so I really have no idea if a citizen can bypass that and apply for UQ-O.

I do have a question though. You mentioned we need stethoscopes? How early do we need them, and where's a good place you would recommend (and by good I mean cheap but usable of course!).

 

[nybgrus]

@singmed15 is spot on in his/her 3 points to @mcat_taker

As for a steth... you need one pretty early on. In M1 year you do clinical coaching which starts in the first couple of months. For that you could get away with anything. However, IMHO, you may as well just spend the money to get a nice right off the bat. Unless you are prone to losing things* this will easily be your steth for the next couple of decades. Most people go with a Litmmann Cardiology III or Master Cardiology. I have the latter and like it a lot. Some go with the electronic steths. I've tried one out and didn't particularly like it. IMHO the added bulk and weight is not worth it. I've had no trouble catching murmurs, even pretty subtle ones, with my Master Cardiology. And I am actually somewhat hard of hearing (my fiance cringes sometimes at how loud I have to keep the TV to hear things clearly).

*I am actually prone to losing things myself, most notably watches and sunglasses, however I have yet to even come close to losing my steth

 

[Ashley_Green1988]

@singmed15 @nybgrus Thanks for the info, I only ask because I am also a dual citizen (because my mom was born and raised there), but for all intents and purposes I'm an American (I was born and raised here in the U.S). Am looking to apply next year and wanted to know if the dual citizenship prevented me from applying to UQ-O....I would prefer that program because would want to do residency and practice in the U.S. afterwards, no interest in permanently moving to Aus....

Hi, I'm an Australian domestic student doing medicine at UQ who is also a dual citizen (UK - Australian). I can confirm that as a dual citizen you are unfortunately not permitted to apply for an international spot at any Australian medical school - that's a blanket policy and includes the UQ-Oschner program. Some universities still have domestic full fee paying spots (UQ doesn't) but they are generally being phased out for various policy / political reasons.

So if you want to go to medical school here, unless you somehow renounce your Australian citizenship (and now that Tony Abbott is PM I'm sure people would understand if you wanted to do that ), you'll have to do it as a domestic student which unfortunately means it will be a lot harder to get in, especially at UQ. As it stands for UQ as a domestic you'll need a GAMSAT score in the ~95th + percentile (unless you are classed as rural - in which case it's more like a score in the 70th percentile). GPA is a hurdle luckily and not that high either at only 5.00 (our scale is out of 7.00 - not sure what this equates to using the US 4.00 scale)

Btw don't refer to cut offs for 2015 entrance, this admission cycle was somewhat of an anomaly because there were drastically reduced numbers of provisional entry students which drastically increased the number of graduate entry spots which of course dropped the GAMSAT score needed to gain entry - but this was a one off because of the switch to MD - cut offs will jump again.

Hope that helps

p.s I'll just correct something said by somebody further up - you don't get access to student loans per se in Australia, well, that is not the same kind of loans that they have in the states. We don't *really* have that kind of thing. We put our fees on HECS HELP, which means that the government pays your fees and then once you have a full-time job they take a certain amount of money from your pay each week / month etc (very small amount as well) and it's only indexed with inflation (SO FAR...the heinous libs are rumbling about changing this and applying it RETROACTIVELY...ugh...but anyway).

There are no student loans for living costs unfortunately. But you will something even better - free money from the government each fortnight that you never ever have to pay back (ever!) for as long as you are studying medicine!!! It only amounts to about $450 / fortnight but if you work 5-10 hours a week on top of that you can easily survive. You also get a scholarship twice a year of $1000 (which unfortunately you do have to pay back but it goes on HECS).

That plus the fact that medicine for us only costs $39K for the entire degree (government subsidises the rest) compared to the hundreds of thousands it costs our American colleagues, plus our guaranteed internship, makes domestic vs international student place a no brainer decision.

1. At the risk of sounding like an ignoramus, I do not believe UQ-O counts as an American med school, despite having rotations and full accreditation in the US. Therefore, it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference whether you picked UQ or UQ-O as an Australian/US citizen, as with your US citizenship you would still be counted as a AIMG no matter which program you did, at least from a legalistic standpoint, but obviously UQ-O is better in terms of actual exposure to the US system and rotations.

^^^ also this is very true. If you really 100% want to practice in the US, get into a US medical school. My boyfriend is Oschner and although he has done amazingly well so far in med he has a lot of rational concerns about his chances when he returns.

 

[nybgrus]

Hi, I'm an Australian domestic student doing medicine at UQ who is also a dual citizen (UK - Australian). I can confirm that as a dual citizen you are unfortunately not permitted to apply for an international spot at any Australian medical school - that's a blanket policy and includes the UQ-Oschner program. Some universities still have domestic full fee paying spots (UQ doesn't) but they are generally being phased out for various policy / political reasons.

So if you want to go to medical school here, unless you somehow renounce your Australian citizenship (and now that Tony Abbott is PM I'm sure people would understand if you wanted to do that ), you'll have to do it as a domestic student which unfortunately means it will be a lot harder to get in, especially at UQ. As it stands for UQ as a domestic you'll need a GAMSAT score in the ~95th + percentile (unless you are classed as rural - in which case it's more like a score in the 70th percentile). GPA is a hurdle luckily and not that high either at only 5.00 (our scale is out of 7.00 - not sure what this equates to using the US 4.00 scale)

Btw don't refer to cut offs for 2015 entrance, this admission cycle was somewhat of an anomaly because there were drastically reduced numbers of provisional entry students which drastically increased the number of graduate entry spots which of course dropped the GAMSAT score needed to gain entry - but this was a one off because of the switch to MD - cut offs will jump again.

Hope that helps

p.s I'll just correct something said by somebody further up - you don't get access to student loans per se in Australia, well, that is not the same kind of loans that they have in the states. We don't *really* have that kind of thing. We put our fees on HECS HELP, which means that the government pays your fees and then once you have a full-time job they take a certain amount of money from your pay each week / month etc (very small amount as well) and it's only indexed with inflation (SO FAR...the heinous libs are rumbling about changing this and applying it RETROACTIVELY...ugh...but anyway).

There are no student loans for living costs unfortunately. But you will something even better - free money from the government each fortnight that you never ever have to pay back (ever!) for as long as you are studying medicine!!! It only amounts to about $450 / fortnight but if you work 5-10 hours a week on top of that you can easily survive. You also get a scholarship twice a year of $1000 (which unfortunately you do have to pay back but it goes on HECS).

That plus the fact that medicine for us only costs $39K for the entire degree (government subsidises the rest) compared to the hundreds of thousands it costs our American colleagues, plus our guaranteed internship, makes domestic vs international student place a no brainer decision.





^^^ also this is very true. If you really 100% want to practice in the US, get into a US medical school. My boyfriend is Oschner and although he has done amazingly well so far in med he has a lot of rational concerns about his chances when he returns.

Thanks for the info! I was not aware of the details, as you may imagine.

 

[Ashley_Green1988]

large

Thanks for the info! I was not aware of the details, as you may imagine.

No worries I hold a lot of tedious knowledge about this stuff in my mind due to being rather OCD with my research during the admissions process!

 

[singmed15]

Hey @nybgrus thanks for the advice regarding the steth. While we're on the subject of equipment, I also had a question about laptops. What exactly will we need laptops/tablets for, and are there any types you'd recommend?

Also @Ashley_Green1988 thanks for your reply and corrections. I'm a NZ-US citizen, so while I get the CSPs, Medicare, etc., I don't get HECS-HELP (kinda BS if you ask me, after all Aussies in NZ get student loans/aid/whatever, but that's a different subject).

Since you were kind enough to bring up the Village Idiot though, I did have a question about fee deregulation.

So as I understand it, the senate shot down deregulation about a month ago, but does this mean that the 2014 budget rule about when CSPs expire doesn't apply for now?

I ask because anyone who applied this year basically got screwed as we didn't know about the deregulation until after applying, but were still not allowed to be grandfathered through on the old system. Since deregulation has been blocked for now, does this mean that CSPs are still in place for the foreseeable future (i.e., until they try again)?

 

[nybgrus]

Hey @nybgrus thanks for the advice regarding the steth. While we're on the subject of equipment, I also had a question about laptops. What exactly will we need laptops/tablets for, and are there any types you'd recommend?

You will need computing for just about everything. Assignments are online. Schedules are online. Books are online. You need to research and look up articles. You need to write things. Get and send emails. Basically, most things.

As for what kind.... doesn't matter. Mac or PC no difference. Type... doesn't have to be a gaming powerhouse. My bottom tier MacBook air was plenty enough for anything I needed to do. I like having a tablet for reading more than my laptop, but I vastly prefer writing on my laptop. So I have both. You can easily do with just one, either one, though IMO if you were going to pick just one I'd do a laptop.

 

[singmed15]

You will need computing for just about everything. Assignments are online. Schedules are online. Books are online. You need to research and look up articles. You need to write things. Get and send emails. Basically, most things.

As for what kind.... doesn't matter. Mac or PC no difference. Type... doesn't have to be a gaming powerhouse. My bottom tier MacBook air was plenty enough for anything I needed to do. I like having a tablet for reading more than my laptop, but I vastly prefer writing on my laptop. So I have both. You can easily do with just one, either one, though IMO if you were going to pick just one I'd do a laptop.

Yeah, I was leaning towards just going with a PC laptop (not really that interested in a tablet unless its needed somehow), but wasn't sure if I needed anything with high-specs or whatever. Thanks @nybgrus for clarifying.

 

[nybgrus]

Yeah, I was leaning towards just going with a PC laptop (not really that interested in a tablet unless its needed somehow), but wasn't sure if I needed anything with high-specs or whatever. Thanks @nybgrus for clarifying.

De nada

 

[TaksuHim]

I can indeed verify what qldking is saying. I took obsgyn and in the first rotation - roundabouts 25% of the cohort failed.

If you like, you can consider me as some sort of a go-between fellow between student population and UQMS. I am actually involved in helping students who failed appeal or as study partner to them. I can personally say that obsgyn coordinator changed the electronic course profile, i.e. requirements to pass obsgyn to less stringent criteria that some students saw their grades upgraded from a 2 to 3 and yadda yadda.

The thing about about UQ failing lotsa students is one thing, especially during their clinical years, but the other thing is that the medicine faculty's decision with regards to remediating failed students which really defy logic.

This part is true - 4 years ago when they started the Oschner cohort, there was a ballooning of student numbers in phase 1, i.e. pre-clinical years. Although this wasn't much a problem in the theoretical side of learning which was always DIY, however, the clinical side of learning was affected, so much so that there were students did not have clinical teaching the vast majority of time, either the clinical tutors did not turn up or they could not find a replacement in time. In fact, some students were so badly affected by the poor turnout that their clinical skills were not up to the level to pass the 2nd year OSCEs. Those group of students passed their theoretical section, pathology, physiology, population health, but couldn't progress due to failure to clear second year OSCEs obstacle. Now, those group of students had to repeat second year but they appealed to be exempted from the theoretical portion and to do the clinical portion by understudying a faculty clinical tutor but the school of medicine denied them the request, in other words, their fate was similar to those who failed theoretical and clinicals and had to repeat second year. A student representing those students who couldn't make the OSCEs wrote to the faculty and asked if they could understudy a faculty clinician but were denied the request because the faculty claimed it wouldn't be fair on the other students.

There is another similar episode this time round, for the new Critical Care clinical rotation for 2014. There is a feedback form that consultants had to fill up. Critical care was split into 2 weeks anaesthetics, 2 weeks ICU and 4 weeks emergency medicine. Because during clinical years, supervisors had to fill up a Clinical Performance Assessment (CPA) form. One of the students unfortunately let a consultant who wasn't familiar with students sign his CPA form, and the latter failed his CPA. His colleagues who let other consultants sign their forms passed. However, he passed his CPA for emergency medicine and even his final examination. What defied common sense and logic was the fact that the school made him redo the 8 week rotations even though he passed the final examination that included ICU medicine, anaesthetics and ED.

As an impassioned observer, I speculate though I am ready to stand corrected that the whole underlying issue is $$$$. If it is possible, it would be interesting if an inquiry was conducted into the the processes of the school. In those latter failure cases, there were a few Commonwealth supported placement students affected. The part about making students repeat the whole thing even though they passed components of most of the whole thing defy logic and the only foreseeable result is more revenue for the school. Revenue could be made from making second year students repeat everything rather than just mere clinical components. Revenue-wise more could be made from making a student repeat 8 weeks rather than to repeat a 2 week component that he failed, regardless of whether he passed everything.

End of the day....the losers are the tax paying Australians...taxes paid to subsidise medical education. Furthermore the ballooning of student numbers did erode the quality of education. There are already consultants out there who have feedbacked that the clinical skills of UQ students that they have taken are relatively poor in comparison to Griffith and even JCU.

@@PItman, if you doubt what I am saying with regards to the existence of those cases that I have mentioned, you are free to verify with the current UQMS president this year 2015.

Another thing is that UQ fails a lot of students in Years 3 and 4. A small school on the other hand basically does everything it can to keep student afloat.

And it's a huge deal because if you don't graduate on time you end up missing out on an entire year of internship.

My 'data tables' are published information readily available off of Blackboard. It takes not even 30 seconds to access it. It's like you refuse to believe something because it doesn't run in line with your antiquated notions of UQ MBBS.

RE: OBGYN, apparently the head of discipline told examiners to mark more stringently than last year, resulting in a 30% fail rate-scores were then re-scaled but people obviously still failed-probably about 8-10 people instead of the initial 30 or so.

I am glad phloston is here to corroborate what I am saying so I don't need to worry about you and nyb trying to ruin my name just because I tell the truth and it doesn't coo your fragile egos.

 

[pitman]

I don't doubt your anecdotes. The point of contention is with how many failed and had to repeat, which numbers as per qldking do not add up. As you said in one example, O&G changed the criteria to allow more passes. When I was a student, a similar thing happened wrt paeds -- the first group to do the rotation in my year had something like a 30% "fail" rate. In the end, there were just a handful (of over 300) who had to repeat the term.

 

[nybgrus]

I can indeed verify what qldking is saying. I took obsgyn and in the first rotation - roundabouts 25% of the cohort failed.

Well, to be fair, no you can't. You can provide us with one partial anecdote from your experience which only very partly supports the totality of what trolly king has been saying.

In my second year 13% of the entire cohort failed the year. And that was - at the time - considered a huge number by everyone, including the SoM. At the end of the day between some adjustments as you mentioned and some supps, that number really ended up being closer to 5%.

This part is true - 4 years ago when they started the Oschner cohort, there was a ballooning of student numbers in phase 1, i.e. pre-clinical years.

Yes, there was a big issue with something weird that allowed a whole heck of a lot of twosies in that wasn't intended. My understanding is that this is no longer the case.

Because during clinical years, supervisors had to fill up a Clinical Performance Assessment (CPA) form. One of the students unfortunately let a consultant who wasn't familiar with students sign his CPA form, and the latter failed his CPA. His colleagues who let other consultants sign their forms passed.

Now you are just describing the vagaries of clinical clerkships and grading. Something that is an often raised point in just about every medical school out there. And there is recourse for people to pursue in such cases, albeit it is annoying and decidedly unfair to have to deal with such things.

What defied common sense and logic was the fact that the school made him redo the 8 week rotations even though he passed the final examination that included ICU medicine, anaesthetics and ED

While it does defy common sense and should therefore be viewed appropriately askance, in general when something beggars the imagination the generally safe assumption is that one's information is incomplete. From what I've seen (having been in a position for a few years where students would come to be for advice on how to handle their failing or near failing grades) is that if the student is otherwise in good academic and professional standing such things don't happen. I have seen students allowed to repeat just part of courses or just an exam. It is those students who have a history of academic difficulty or professional transgressions of some kind that are forced to repeat entire courses.

Not to say that I know definitively that this is the case in your anecdote, but neither do you know definitively that what you know about your anecdote is both accurate and complete.

But at the end of the day, even if you are exactly right it is still just that - an anecdote. One that I could meet with dozens that run counter to yours.

As an impassioned observer, I speculate though I am ready to stand corrected that the whole underlying issue is $$$$. If it is possible, it would be interesting if an inquiry was conducted into the the processes of the school. In those latter failure cases, there were a few Commonwealth supported placement students affected. The part about making students repeat the whole thing even though they passed components of most of the whole thing defy logic and the only foreseeable result is more revenue for the school. Revenue could be made from making second year students repeat everything rather than just mere clinical components. Revenue-wise more could be made from making a student repeat 8 weeks rather than to repeat a 2 week component that he failed, regardless of whether he passed everything.

This just seems downright silly to me. A SoM that has an operating budget in the hundreds of millions of dollars, whose tuition from just the Ochsner cohort is $7 million per annum, is going to try and squeeze more money out of people by making them repeat a one-off rotation? If it were an Ochsner student (or other international) that would amount to roughly $12,000. Let's assume that the commonwealth supported positions would get that much as well between the support and the tuition. Then the total per annum in tuition would be roughly $30 million. How many students would have to repeat and pay in order to make any sort of real difference in that income?

It just seems rather ridiculous to think that there are a handful of people that are that dastardly that they would intentionally act behind the scenes in order to garner the SoM an extra fraction of a percent of tuition income (which is an even smaller percentage of the total income). Unless these people were somehow actually embezzling the money for their own personal gain. Either scenario would require a lot of risky actions by a handful of people for very little gain. Or are you proposing that the entire SoM administration is in on this plot?

So sure, revenue could be made this way. And you could also make revenue by collecting coins from wishing wells and fountains.

 

[TaksuHim]

It wasn't an anecdote. It happened that 25% failed in the first rotation of 2014, and there was a blackboard annoucement that the electronic course profile for passing requirements was relaxed, and the failure figures were more respectable. You can always verify this with graduating batch 2014. Check with the current UQMS president if you like.

In those cases, for the second year repeats, all those who failed the OSCE components were in good standing for their theoretical sections and were in good standing from year 1, and remained so even in their clinical years, hence the deficiency was in the lack of clinical training, which was out of their hands beyond their control.

For the student who had to repeat Critical Care, he only failed a 2 week CPA for a 2 week sub-rotation - the only mistake being he let a consultant who probably has no experience with students to grade his CPA. His other peers who let other consultants grade them passed. He was in good standing throughout his clinical years. For the whole rotation, he passed all his exams and CPA for all other components, he only failed this one feedback, and the reason I have highlighted.

You have to understand there were changes circa 2012 - 2013. School of Medicine was subsumed under School of Biomedical Sciences, and hence whatever they made was believed to have gone to School of Biomedical Sciences, as in the faculty changes was thought to have affected the operating budget of the school.

BTW, Nybrus, I am curious but did you graduate before 2012? Because for second year procedural skills, 2012 was the first time that the school did away with Advanced Life Support for the second year Procedural skills. It used to be that you have to know your Advanced Life Support for second year OSCEs but they did away with that because of budget constraints.

The fact that School of Medicine went under School of Biomedical Sciences was believed to have further affect their operating budget (whatever proceeds went to the school of biomedical sciences or so as it was believed). In fact, there was a feedback session when someone suggested to the School to employ a staff who could track the school syllabus and set examinations which test students on the relevant syllabus, and did you know what was the reply? Not enough funds to employ such staff. Our examination questions were pretty random to say the least.

As I said, I am happy to be corrected in my speculation, I do not know what goes behind the scenes, all I know was that a lot of good staff left the school CIRCA 2011 - 2012. You remember Darren Hansen, the PSW coach, he was a good and dedicated staff but he left.

Supplementaries of examinations for part of courses are normal, there are supps handed out as you said. However, those cases are not cases of "struggling medical students", but those who were in the wrong place or wrong time or happened to be groups affected by poor clinical tutor turnout.

I am happy to accept any other reason for the school's decisions on such cases. However, when we hear of such stories, the only conclusion that can be heard on 9/10 lips are "it's all about $$$".

I also like to know why do you get students in good standing to repeat components they have passed, even though they have failed just one single component, which is not their fault given the absurd teaching staff to student ratio, and furthermore, rejecting their appeal for exemptions from components they have passed. Like to know why too.

Well, to be fair, no you can't. You can provide us with one partial anecdote from your experience which only very partly supports the totality of what trolly king has been saying.

In my second year 13% of the entire cohort failed the year. And that was - at the time - considered a huge number by everyone, including the SoM. At the end of the day between some adjustments as you mentioned and some supps, that number really ended up being closer to 5%.



Yes, there was a big issue with something weird that allowed a whole heck of a lot of twosies in that wasn't intended. My understanding is that this is no longer the case.



Now you are just describing the vagaries of clinical clerkships and grading. Something that is an often raised point in just about every medical school out there. And there is recourse for people to pursue in such cases, albeit it is annoying and decidedly unfair to have to deal with such things.



While it does defy common sense and should therefore be viewed appropriately askance, in general when something beggars the imagination the generally safe assumption is that one's information is incomplete. From what I've seen (having been in a position for a few years where students would come to be for advice on how to handle their failing or near failing grades) is that if the student is otherwise in good academic and professional standing such things don't happen. I have seen students allowed to repeat just part of courses or just an exam. It is those students who have a history of academic difficulty or professional transgressions of some kind that are forced to repeat entire courses.

Not to say that I know definitively that this is the case in your anecdote, but neither do you know definitively that what you know about your anecdote is both accurate and complete.

But at the end of the day, even if you are exactly right it is still just that - an anecdote. One that I could meet with dozens that run counter to yours.



This just seems downright silly to me. A SoM that has an operating budget in the hundreds of millions of dollars, whose tuition from just the Ochsner cohort is $7 million per annum, is going to try and squeeze more money out of people by making them repeat a one-off rotation? If it were an Ochsner student (or other international) that would amount to roughly $12,000. Let's assume that the commonwealth supported positions would get that much as well between the support and the tuition. Then the total per annum in tuition would be roughly $30 million. How many students would have to repeat and pay in order to make any sort of real difference in that income?

It just seems rather ridiculous to think that there are a handful of people that are that dastardly that they would intentionally act behind the scenes in order to garner the SoM an extra fraction of a percent of tuition income (which is an even smaller percentage of the total income). Unless these people were somehow actually embezzling the money for their own personal gain. Either scenario would require a lot of risky actions by a handful of people for very little gain. Or are you proposing that the entire SoM administration is in on this plot?

So sure, revenue could be made this way. And you could also make revenue by collecting coins from wishing wells and fountains.

 

[TaksuHim]

I am curious, if you are a UQ alumni, does it bother you to know there are ppl failing for reasons attributed to the Faculty teaching staff to student ratio. Actually, clinical coaching second year was done by registrars in hospitals. As someone who has assisted others in their appeal, I have seen black and white forms, e.g. visa extensions where the reasons cited for repeat of year was due to hurdles from lack of teaching opportunities from the medical school. End of the day, it doesn't reflect well on the School, for this to be made known to the Department of Immigration, and there is no choice, such facts have to be made known to the Department of Immigration.

Already, there are consultants who have already commented how relatively poor, the clinical skills of UQ grads compare to grads from Griffith or JCU.

I mean, just honestly, the sheer large numbers of UQ cohort, do you think the sheer numbers of UQ's large cohort was ever going to affect quality of medical training? My answer to that is a definite yes.

In fact, I had last year's seniors complaining to me that they had little time to do case presentations during their medical specialties rotation because their consultant had to coach second year students. It never was a problem when the school was less crowded.

I think Nygbrus was half right, yes one year they over-enrolled twosies, however, they also took in more students than they could for phase 1 due to the Oschner tie up.

I don't doubt your anecdotes. The point of contention is with how many failed and had to repeat, which numbers as per qldking do not add up. As you said in one example, O&G changed the criteria to allow more passes. When I was a student, a similar thing happened wrt paeds -- the first group to do the rotation in my year had something like a 30% "fail" rate. In the end, there were just a handful (of over 300) who had to repeat the term.