Possibly taking my degree and running

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My parents paid , but again , what does that have to do with qualifications?

I am saddened to see so much greed and fear of competition among dentists/future dentists.

At the same time , I am glad to see that US graduated MD's are not acting the same way towards doctors from other countries

Looks to me that some dentists are really money hungry.

Wondering how that helps the patients...

....Money-hungry? This is the secnd time you've attacked someone as greedy. What were your reasons for leaving your home country and practicing in the US? Did the higher earning potential in the US have something to do with it? Unless money wasn't a reason (I'd call you suspect if you said it wasn't), you can't knock those that happen to like $, too. It makes the world go 'round, afterall.

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....Money-hungry? This is the secnd time you've attacked someone as greedy. What were your reasons for leaving your home country and practicing in the US? Did the higher earning potential in the US have something to do with it? Unless money wasn't a reason (I'd call you suspect if you said it wasn't), you can't knock those that happen to like $, too. It makes the world go 'round, afterall.

I did not come to the US for money.

There is a difference between the desire of making good money and being money hungry/greedy.

Almost everyone wants to make money , but some people are just greedy
 
I did not come to the US for money.

There is a difference between the desire of making good money and being money hungry/greedy.

Almost everyone wants to make money , but some people are just greedy

HUGE difference between being greedy, and wanting to make money so that your family is taken care of. If you graduate w/ a 300-400K loan, you have around 2500-3000 to pay every month for 25 yrs. If you make even 150K, after tax you are down to maybe 110K, maybe less, then take away the 36000 off that, and you are down to around 84K a year after tax, minus your disabilities and malpractice insurances on top. This is what a graduate here faces, 84K after tax and before liability insurance is very mediocre and not greedy at all. It is not easy to make yourself into something here, and nor is it cheap. I'm sure getting into dentistry in the EU was tough as well, but you had no where near the amount of years of lost income and debt taken on by US grads. We are not greedy, we are just making sure that our hard work will have its pay off. FYI, dentistry is not the right profession if you are greedy. Just to let you know, my personal view is that there is nothing wrong with greed, but dentists and doctors are not greedy at all imo, they spend years in schooling working their asses off. They are both highly intelligent, and if they were only after the money, they would do much better being investment bankers on wall street. Wall Street has its greed, but that is what this country is built on (capitalism), if you don't like the "greed" you see, then go back to the EU (where your high taxes have bankrupt many governments). Go and pay back the taxes that you owe to the EU for giving you a good education for very cheap. FYI, I also don't consider those on wall street to be greedy either. They do bitch work for years to get where they are, working as an analyst for a investment bank requires 100hr weeks and giving up most of your 20s. Everyone is just making sure that there hard work is not overlooked or gone to waste. you open the flood gates to international dentists, then I would have just gone there and done dentistry in 4 yrs after high school, essentially devaluing an american education, which has already started to occur with NP's devaluing family medicine and PA's as well. If you don't like this country, go back to the EU.
 
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HUGE difference between being greedy, and wanting to make money so that your family is taken care of. If you graduate w/ a 300-400K loan, you have around 2500-3000 to pay every month for 25 yrs. If you make even 150K, after tax you are down to maybe 110K, maybe less, then take away the 36000 off that, and you are down to around 84K a year after tax, minus your disabilities and malpractice insurances on top. This is what a graduate here faces, 84K after tax and before liability insurance is very mediocre and not greedy at all. It is not easy to make yourself into something here, and nor is it cheap. I'm sure getting into dentistry in the EU was tough as well, but you had no where near the amount of years of lost income and debt taken on by US grads. We are not greedy, we are just making sure that our hard work will have its pay off. FYI, dentistry is not the right profession if you are greedy. Just to let you know, my personal view is that there is nothing wrong with greed, but dentists and doctors are not greedy at all imo, they spend years in schooling working their asses off. They are both highly intelligent, and if they were only after the money, they would do much better being investment bankers on wall street. Wall Street has its greed, but that is what this country is built on (capitalism), if you don't like the "greed" you see, then go back to the EU (where your high taxes have bankrupt many governments). Go and pay back the taxes that you owe to the EU for giving you a good education for very cheap. FYI, I also don't consider those on wall street to be greedy either. They do bitch work for years to get where they are, working as an analyst for a investment bank requires 100hr weeks and giving up most of your 20s. Everyone is just making sure that there hard work is not overlooked or gone to waste. you open the flood gates to international dentists, then I would have just gone there and done dentistry in 4 yrs after high school, essentially devaluing an american education, which has already started to occur with NP's devaluing family medicine and PA's as well. If you don't like this country, go back to the EU.

the taxes are paid already by my parents.

What you want US to do is similar to imposing very high taxes on foreign cars.

It would protect US workers, but would NOT benefit the consumer.

Is called protectionism , plain and simple.

Is not in the interest of the consumers , but in the interest of US dentists.

In a fair system, , qualification would dictate the licensure process, not the amount of money one spent on dental school.

FYI , I did 6 years of pure dental school after high scool, all those 6 years were related to dentistry.

I am more qualified than you will ever be doing 4 years of college ( with all kind of things unrelated to dentistry , besides what is required for dental) and 4 years of dental school.

I have completed a 6 year DDS program

So spare me the crap about devaluing US education
 
Is not in the interest of the consumers , but in the interest of US dentists.

You are wrong.

Even right now, many US dentists are barely scraping by while paying off 300k-500k in loans. If they cannot pay off their loans due to an influx of dentists into the country, the US banking industry will have another meltdown and will never recover. Eventually the taxpayers and loan companies will have to foot the bill for delinquent loans. Who else loses here? ( hint: not just US dentists. )

And if we give out free licenses to everyone, then what is the point of going to a US dental school when we go to Europe and get a free degree and come back?

I'm sure, even in CA, it's very difficult to keep a dental office due to overhead and saturation. How will you afford to keep the office and do good dental work if ten more dentists move into the same neighborhood and undercut your prices? In this scenario, all the area dentists ( with US dentists also having to pay loans ) can only stay in business if they spend less time per patient and use crappy labs and supplies and take less CE classes. The best labs ( i.e. Glidewell and Keller ) will go out of business and start outsourcing. And how is this better for the patient? And don't talk about cars and medicine. Who are you to talk about the car industry? And medicine is a completely different business model.

And you still didn't answer why it's ok for you to be given a license while US dental grads are not recognized in the EU.
 
FYI , I did 6 years of pure dental school after high scool, all those 6 years were related to dentistry.

I am more qualified than you will ever be doing 4 years of college ( with all kind of things unrelated to dentistry , besides what is required for dental) and 4 years of dental school.

I have completed a 6 year DDS program

So spare me the crap about devaluing US education

I thought you've completed a 6 year BDS (Bachelor of Dental Surgery) program. 2 years of general education and 4 years of dental education.
As far as I know, its 5 year BDS program after high school in UK.
 
I thought you've completed a 6 year BDS (Bachelor of Dental Surgery) program. 2 years of general education and 4 years of dental education.
As far as I know, its 5 year BDS program after high school in UK.

Example of education required to enter the 4 year DDS US program:


Prerequisites for dental school:
It is strongly recommended that students complete all requirements for a bachelor’s degree in addition to the required prerequisites before entering dental school.
Biology
2 semesters with lab
Inorganic Chemistry
2 semesters with lab

Organic Chemistry
2 semesters with lab

Biochemistry
1 semester required for VCU School of Dentistry
Physics
2 semesters of general or university physics with lab
English
2 semesters including grammar and composition
Mathematics
2 semesters
It should be noted that some dental schools require additional prerequisite course work. The best reference for specific requirements for different dental schools is the must current edition of The
ADEA’s Official Guide to Dental Schools and the links to
individual dental schools, also available on the ADEA’s Web site


I am not from the UK.

To all people trumpeting the superiority of US dental schools ( which , by the way , I do not think are bad at all) and the inferiority of EU programs, I have to tell you one thing:


What you study in college as pre-requisites for the 4 year DDS program , we study in high school in the EU.

That is why we go straight to medical or dental school after college, and we do 6 years of med school /5-6 years of dental school.

http://www.adee.org/cms/

If you go to that web site , you'll see that EU countries accept each others' dentists without all the protectionist rules/fear of competition.

I will contact them soon regarding the situation in the US and urge them NOT to accept any US dental graduates , unless US dental boards change their unfair policies

If things in the US go bad and you want to move to Europe , you'll start crying out loud that your US license is not accepted and is not fair
 
Example of education required to enter the 4 year DDS US program:


Prerequisites for dental school:
It is strongly recommended that students complete all requirements for a bachelor’s degree in addition to the required prerequisites before entering dental school.
Biology
2 semesters with lab
Inorganic Chemistry
2 semesters with lab

Organic Chemistry
2 semesters with lab

Biochemistry
1 semester required for VCU School of Dentistry
Physics
2 semesters of general or university physics with lab
English
2 semesters including grammar and composition
Mathematics
2 semesters
It should be noted that some dental schools require additional prerequisite course work. The best reference for specific requirements for different dental schools is the must current edition of The
ADEA’s Official Guide to Dental Schools and the links to
individual dental schools, also available on the ADEA’s Web site


I am not from the UK.

To all people trumpeting the superiority of US dental schools ( which , by the way , I do not think are bad at all) and the inferiority of EU programs, I have to tell you one thing:


What you study in college as pre-requisites for the 4 year DDS program , we study in high school in the EU.

That is why we go straight to medical or dental school after college, and we do 6 years of med school /5-6 years of dental school.

http://www.adee.org/cms/

If you go to that web site , you'll see that EU countries accept each others' dentists without all the protectionist rules/fear of competition.

I will contact them soon regarding the situation in the US and urge them NOT to accept any US dental graduates , unless US dental boards change their unfair policies

If things in the US go bad and you want to move to Europe , you'll start crying out loud that your US license is not accepted and is not fair

Hey *****, we take biology and chemistry and english and physics in high school too. We just take more of it in undergrad. I've taken anatomy, physiology, microbiology, organic chemistry etc etc in undergrad, as well as taking bio , chem, physics, english and math in high school. So, NO you do not have the same amt of education. dumb****
 
Hey *****, we take biology and chemistry and english and physics in high school too. We just take more of it in undergrad. I've taken anatomy, physiology, microbiology, organic chemistry etc etc in undergrad, as well as taking bio , chem, physics, english and math in high school. So, NO you do not have the same amt of education. dumb****


Your language says a lot about what kind of person you are.

I feel sorry for your future patients , if you ever make it through dental or medical school.
 
http://www.adee.org/cms/

If you go to that web site , you'll see that EU countries accept each others' dentists without all the protectionist rules/fear of competition.

I will contact them soon regarding the situation in the US and urge them NOT to accept any US dental graduates , unless US dental boards change their unfair policies

Are you saying that US dental grads are recognized in the EU?
 
Are you saying that US dental grads are recognized in the EU?

No , they are NOT, I hope they will never be unless US returns the favor to EU.

I am saying that if you are a dentist in Greece, for example , you can move to Italy or anywhere in the EU without rules and regulations and fees
 
Your language says a lot about what kind of person you are.

I feel sorry for your future patients , if you ever make it through dental or medical school.

This demonstrates the kind of person I am? You're the one who is calling every dentist and person on this board greedy. And there is no need to feel sorry for my patients, at least they'll have a competent dentist who is well educated and not some fool who thinks the system is unfair. Also, presenting yourself to a patient is much different than debating with an illiterate undereducated dentist from the EU. I don't think anyone on this board wants the EU to accept Dentists from US and Canada either way so you can shove it now.

BTW the reason EU takes each others dentists is that cost of education amongst countries is very similar. This is similar to Canada and the US taking each others dentist. The required schooling btw Canada and the US is similar, and so is that within the EU.

So why did you come to the US if it is SO UNFAIR??! I doubt that you came here for anything else other than the money.
 
No , they are NOT, I hope they will never be unless US returns the favor to EU.

This is a very sensitive and complicated issue for some groups of people. There is a lot more involved at stake but .......

Why should the US give you backdoor licensure if the EU won't reciprocate? I'm suspecting hypocrisy because you keep dodging the question.
 
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This demonstrates the kind of person I am? You're the one who is calling every dentist and person on this board greedy. And there is no need to feel sorry for my patients, at least they'll have a competent dentist who is well educated and not some fool who thinks the system is unfair. Also, presenting yourself to a patient is much different than debating with an illiterate undereducated dentist from the EU. I don't think anyone on this board wants the EU to accept Dentists from US and Canada either way so you can shove it now.

BTW the reason EU takes each others dentists is that cost of education amongst countries is very similar. This is similar to Canada and the US taking each others dentist. The required schooling btw Canada and the US is similar, and so is that within the EU.

So why did you come to the US if it is SO UNFAIR??! I doubt that you came here for anything else other than the money.

Oh really?

Illiterate and undereducated?

I am fully licensed in CA ,whether you like it or not; you can scream as much as you want , you cannot take my CA license away from me ; it will take a very very long time for you to be able to afford my zip code, my dear pre-med, specially with that 500k debt out of dental school you'll have

I am NOT calling everyone on this board greedy , but you are.

And you are very rude, too
 
This is a very sensitive and complicated issue for some groups of people. There is a lot more involved at stake but .......

Why should the US give you backdoor licensure if the EU won't reciprocate? I'm suspecting hypocrisy because you keep dodging the question.

I am pretty sure that EU would not mind accepting US graduates, but I think the strongest opposition comes from the US/Canadian boards.

They have a HUGE shortage of MD 's in Canada, still most foreign MD's never make it in that country to a residency program , even after passing all the Canadian medical boards.

It is easier for foreign MD's in the US
 
This is a very sensitive and complicated issue for some groups of people. There is a lot more involved at stake but .......

Why should the US give you backdoor licensure if the EU won't reciprocate? I'm suspecting hypocrisy because you keep dodging the question.

What is the question I am dodging , will you please repeat the question?

Thanks

http://twitter.com/DDS_in_US_truth
 
You are wrong.

Even right now, many US dentists are barely scraping by while paying off 300k-500k in loans. If they cannot pay off their loans due to an influx of dentists into the country, the US banking industry will have another meltdown and will never recover. Eventually the taxpayers and loan companies will have to foot the bill for delinquent loans. Who else loses here? ( hint: not just US dentists. )

And if we give out free licenses to everyone, then what is the point of going to a US dental school when we go to Europe and get a free degree and come back?

I'm sure, even in CA, it's very difficult to keep a dental office due to overhead and saturation. How will you afford to keep the office and do good dental work if ten more dentists move into the same neighborhood and undercut your prices? In this scenario, all the area dentists ( with US dentists also having to pay loans ) can only stay in business if they spend less time per patient and use crappy labs and supplies and take less CE classes. The best labs ( i.e. Glidewell and Keller ) will go out of business and start outsourcing. And how is this better for the patient? And don't talk about cars and medicine. Who are you to talk about the car industry? And medicine is a completely different business model.

And you still didn't answer why it's ok for you to be given a license while US dental grads are not recognized in the EU.

It is OK for me to be licensed because I was one of the very few skilled enough to pass the CA bench test, that is why it is OK.

Most people bragging their skills on this board would NOT be able pass the CA bench test.

Now you have your answer, because I am skilled, that is why I have a license in CA , and because I got it before they changed the law.

Now is just like in the other states: 2 more years of school.
 
I am pretty sure that EU would not mind accepting US graduates, but I think the strongest opposition comes from the US/Canadian boards.

That is only your assumption. That's not a fact, and you don't work for their government. Using your previous logic, this must be because EU dentists are greedy and are afraid of competition.

And I don't understand your anger. As it stands, the EU won't let any foreign dentist ( US or not ) practice in their territories. So I don't know why you think you are still entitled to unlimited licensure in the US.
 
One more thing :

I only took CA clinical board once, and I passed.

It was the most difficult clinical boar exam in the US 10 years ago , more difficult than Florida

I met many US graduated dentists taking the CA board the 3rd or 4th time. They were from USC, UCLA etc

So I do not believe that US graduates are more skilled /educated that EU graduates.

I am not saying they are less educated either.

But to say that EU dentists are illiterate/undereducated ( this is what that ignorant pre-dental guy said) is non-sense.

US dental schools are NOT the center of the universe with everything revolving around them.
 
That is only your assumption. That's not a fact, and you don't work for their government. Using your previous logic, this must be because EU dentists are greedy and are afraid of competition.

And I don't understand your anger. As it stands, the EU won't let any foreign dentist ( US or not ) practice in their territories. So I don't know why you think you are still entitled to unlimited licensure in the US.

Because of my CA working experience/CA license, that is why I think I should be allowed to practice in other states.Because I am QUALIFIED


I don't mind taking a regional board again
 
That is only your assumption. That's not a fact, and you don't work for their government. Using your previous logic, this must be because EU dentists are greedy and are afraid of competition.

And I don't understand your anger. As it stands, the EU won't let any foreign dentist ( US or not ) practice in their territories. So I don't know why you think you are still entitled to unlimited licensure in the US.

EU has reciprocity with some countries outside the EU I think .

It has to be mutual acceptance.

Minnesota accepts some foreign dental schools , so I think EU should accept US dentists who went to school in Minnesota
 
Oh really?

Illiterate and undereducated?

I am fully licensed in CA ,whether you like it or not; you can scream as much as you want , you cannot take my CA license away from me ; it will take a very very long time for you to be able to afford my zip code, my dear pre-med, specially with that 500k debt out of dental school you'll have

I am NOT calling everyone on this board greedy , but you are.

And you are very rude, too

lol thats fine man, you can stay in CA for as long as you want, dentistry there is saturated as hell. BTW, I don't care to compete with you and the "zip code" and the status of that. I just like to see it be fair for all parties involved. Cost of education is one of the factors that needs to be taken into account.
 
HUGE difference between being greedy, and wanting to make money so that your family is taken care of. If you graduate w/ a 300-400K loan, you have around 2500-3000 to pay every month for 25 yrs. If you make even 150K, after tax you are down to maybe 110K, maybe less, then take away the 36000 off that, and you are down to around 84K a year after tax, minus your disabilities and malpractice insurances on top. This is what a graduate here faces, 84K after tax and before liability insurance is very mediocre and not greedy at all. It is not easy to make yourself into something here, and nor is it cheap. I'm sure getting into dentistry in the EU was tough as well, but you had no where near the amount of years of lost income and debt taken on by US grads. We are not greedy, we are just making sure that our hard work will have its pay off. FYI, dentistry is not the right profession if you are greedy. Just to let you know, my personal view is that there is nothing wrong with greed, but dentists and doctors are not greedy at all imo, they spend years in schooling working their asses off. They are both highly intelligent, and if they were only after the money, they would do much better being investment bankers on wall street. Wall Street has its greed, but that is what this country is built on (capitalism), if you don't like the "greed" you see, then go back to the EU (where your high taxes have bankrupt many governments). Go and pay back the taxes that you owe to the EU for giving you a good education for very cheap. FYI, I also don't consider those on wall street to be greedy either. They do bitch work for years to get where they are, working as an analyst for a investment bank requires 100hr weeks and giving up most of your 20s. Everyone is just making sure that there hard work is not overlooked or gone to waste. you open the flood gates to international dentists, then I would have just gone there and done dentistry in 4 yrs after high school, essentially devaluing an american education, which has already started to occur with NP's devaluing family medicine and PA's as well. If you don't like this country, go back to the EU.


Is not that simple , since US citizenship or permanent residence is required to work here.

The US market would not be flooded.

EU dentists would NOT drop the prices ,since they make a good living in the EU, the price drop could come from dentists coming from countries less advanced than EU
 
US dental schools are NOT the center of the universe with everything revolving around them.

...Apparently our dental industry is at the center of the universe, though, as you seem to have found it necessary to move here and jump through all thse hoops. I find it incredibly hard to believe you came here to practice without $ as your source of motivation. You could've gone anywhere in the EU if your country wasn't cutting it (as you've said dentists in the EU do fine). I've lived in europe for a few years, and I've got many friends over there (one is a dentist). They all say the same: dentists do WAY better in the US, and they'd come over here in a heartbeat if the licensure process wasn't such a pain in the @$$. Qualified or not, at least there are options for foreign dentists to practice here. For a US dentist to practice in the EU, the process is practically impossible relative to what the US has for EU dentists to practice here.
 
I met many US graduated dentists taking the CA board the 3rd or 4th time. They were from USC, UCLA etc

So I do not believe that US graduates are more skilled /educated that EU graduates.

I am not saying they are less educated either.

How can someone "not be more educated" but also "not be less educated?"

Also, for your reference, because you did more years of dental school doesn't automatically give you a trump card over every US trained dentist. Assuming more years = better doesn't necessarily make sense. I mean, it should be about qualifications, right? Quality over quantity?

I know a few people who've done extra years of dental school, I should assume they're the best in the class by your logic.

By the way, I'm sure your government appreciates you abandoning them for greener pastures after shunting tax money to pay for your education. Good to know even the european elite aren't too shy about abusing socialized medicine either. You're ALREADY abusing a provision put in by the California board to grant licensure to foreign dentists to increase access to care, which by your stirring, non-financially motivated rhetoric *coughcough*

cadds said:
it will take a very very long time for you to be able to afford my zip code
*coughcough* I'm sure you're not really improving for anyone that didn't need improved access in the first place.
 
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EU has reciprocity with some countries outside the EU I think .

It has to be mutual acceptance.

Minnesota accepts some foreign dental schools , so I think EU should accept US dentists who went to school in Minnesota

So you're admitting that it is the EU that has problems because they won't accept US degrees. Yet, Minnesota accepts foreign schools. So don't you think the US should ban EU degrees completely everywhere within the 50 states? Shouldn't the US dentists be boycotting the EU?

No offense, but your CA bench exam isn't an indicator of clinical skills. In fact, there is a problem with scoring and criteria on every single US regional boards. Luck plays a big role on these exams and they don't test for skills that are practical in the real world. There is now a trend towards making a residency program, instead of boards, a requirement for state licensing. The CA board exam apparently doesn't and shouldn't mean anything in qualifications.

And how is having more dentists better for patient care? I'm in a neighborhood with dentists on every corner. Patients here take dentists for granted ( because there are so many of us ) and are able to negotiate to as low as $600 for max molar endo+crown together or maybe $50/filling including the consult and xrays if they are paying in private. Imagine how much worse the local insurance plans are. These clinics meet ends by trying to unnaturally speed up the procedures and cut corners on labwork. This hurts quality of dental work even more. So how is more of this competition better for patients? Dental care has problems as it is, and don't you think more competition will make it worse for both the dentists and the patients?
 
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I think California allowed Bench Test option for foreign trained dentists because the State had such a high number of migrant communities and didn't want to "waste" professional manpower. I met a lot of California licensed FTD so far, some are good, some are horrendous (mainly businessmen and women) who only care about production.

Although the number of foreign trained dentists continued to increase in California, you'd be surprised to know that there still is area of shortage of dentists. The problem is not the shortage of number of dentists, but the distribution of the dentists. There is also extremely low dental IQ among the general and especially among the immigrant population that the dentist visits are always viewed costly and always involving pain, so they delay their dental checkups.

I know a patient who never once visited a dentist for fear during the six years even though the dental office was right down the road from her. It was funny situation, as her kids still received free Medi-Cal orthodontic care for the past two years.
 
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How can someone "not be more educated" but also "not be less educated?"

Also, for your reference, because you did more years of dental school doesn't automatically give you a trump card over every US trained dentist. Assuming more years = better doesn't necessarily make sense. I mean, it should be about qualifications, right? Quality over quantity?

I know a few people who've done extra years of dental school, I should assume they're the best in the class by your logic.

By the way, I'm sure your government appreciates you abandoning them for greener pastures after shunting tax money to pay for your education. Good to know even the european elite aren't too shy about abusing socialized medicine either. You're ALREADY abusing a provision put in by the California board to grant licensure to foreign dentists to increase access to care, which by your stirring, non-financially motivated rhetoric *coughcough*


*coughcough* I'm sure you're not really improving for anyone that didn't need improved access in the first place.

Not more , not less could mean equally educated, ever thought of that one?


Have you thought that some people consider moving to the US not for the money , but for a new life experience, for something different?

Or maybe they have many friends here?

Or they like the weather in CA?





I do not hear any Western European dentists screaming like little girls OMG , what are we going to do , Eastern European dentists are flooding our countries and drop the prices.

Due to higher income in W Europe, many doctors moved from E to W, yet I do not hear W doctors screaming like little girls



Only people on this forums do that.

W European dentists treat E European dentists with respect , they treat them as their colleagues.

Canadian and most US dental boards are the North Koreas and Cubas of dental boards, totally isolated in this world , trying to prevent

Florida does anything possible to stop even US grads, it says a lot about what is going on in the US when it comes to DDS licensure
 
Cadds, if you are just going to continually degrade and insult the nation you immigrated to, please go back to wherever you came from. There are plenty of people that would kill to have a chance to live here, despite what "hoops" they have to jump through to get what they want.
 
I think California allowed Bench Test option for foreign trained dentists because the State had such a high number of migrant communities and didn't want to "waste" professional manpower. I met a lot of California licensed FTD so far, some are good, some are horrendous (mainly businessmen and women) who only care about production.

Although the number of foreign trained dentists continued to increase in California, you'd be surprised to know that there still is area of shortage of dentists. The problem is not the shortage of number of dentists, but the distribution of the dentists. There is also extremely low dental IQ among the general and especially among the immigrant population that the dentist visits are always viewed costly and always involving pain, so they delay their dental checkups.

I know a patient who never once visited a dentist for fear during the six years even though the dental office was right down the road from her. It was funny situation, as her kids still received free Medi-Cal orthodontic care for the past two years.

I certainly appreciate your honesty when you say "I met a lot of California licensed FTD so far, some are good, some are horrendous (mainly businessmen and women) who only care about production. "

I think there are good/bad dentists both foreign and US grads

You are not bashing all the foreign grad dentists , like that guy calling me names, calling me illiterate , undereducated etc.

I have a lot of respect for most US dentists and for all US dental schools

I do not want to be misunderstood.

I am just trying to make a point that in Europe , the dental boards have let the FREE MARKETS decide who stays in business, is good for the patients, whereas in Canada and most of US protectionism rules.

Again , Western EU dentists do not scream like little girls about Eastern dentists taking their jobs- just look at the postings on this board , how pre-med students are so scared of EU dentists coming here


A good dentists will always have patients and make a good living , even in a saturated market, patients will pay a premium for high end dentistry


I am not saying is easy , but what is really easy out there?

I consider the fact that my CA license /experience are totally IGNORED when it comes to licensure in other states outrageous.

Yes , I understand they have some requirements , but for people licensed in other states for long time, the requirements should be lesser than for foreign grads with no US license/experience

Is it so hard to understand?

My internet campaign against this type of injustice will be relentless, untill something is done.

I hope other DDS victims of US/Canadian dental boards will join me.
 
Cadds, if you are just going to continually degrade and insult the nation you immigrated to, please go back to wherever you came from. There are plenty of people that would kill to have a chance to live here, despite what "hoops" they have to jump through to get what they want.

I am NOT degrading and insulting the nation, I did NOT say bad things about US , my problem is with protectionism when it comes to US dental licensure.


Actually I love US very much , I would not be here otherwise

I pay taxes, too , I am US citizen

Have you heard of 1st amendment?

Do you know the US constitution?

So just cut the BS
 
So you're admitting that it is the EU that has problems because they won't accept US degrees. Yet, Minnesota accepts foreign schools. So don't you think the US should ban EU degrees completely everywhere within the 50 states? Shouldn't the US dentists be boycotting the EU?

No offense, but your CA bench exam isn't an indicator of clinical skills. In fact, there is a problem with scoring and criteria on every single US regional boards. Luck plays a big role on these exams and they don't test for skills that are practical in the real world. There is now a trend towards making a residency program, instead of boards, a requirement for state licensing. The CA board exam apparently doesn't and shouldn't mean anything in qualifications.

And how is having more dentists better for patient care? I'm in a neighborhood with dentists on every corner. Patients here take dentists for granted ( because there are so many of us ) and are able to negotiate to as low as $600 for max molar endo+crown together or maybe $50/filling including the consult and xrays if they are paying in private. Imagine how much worse the local insurance plans are. These clinics meet ends by trying to unnaturally speed up the procedures and cut corners on labwork. This hurts quality of dental work even more. So how is more of this competition better for patients? Dental care has problems as it is, and don't you think more competition will make it worse for both the dentists and the patients?


600 for crown /RCT on a molar, are you kidding me?

Is it that bad?

Where is that if you don't mind telling us?
 
So you're admitting that it is the EU that has problems because they won't accept US degrees. Yet, Minnesota accepts foreign schools. So don't you think the US should ban EU degrees completely everywhere within the 50 states? Shouldn't the US dentists be boycotting the EU?

No offense, but your CA bench exam isn't an indicator of clinical skills. In fact, there is a problem with scoring and criteria on every single US regional boards. Luck plays a big role on these exams and they don't test for skills that are practical in the real world. There is now a trend towards making a residency program, instead of boards, a requirement for state licensing. The CA board exam apparently doesn't and shouldn't mean anything in qualifications.

And how is having more dentists better for patient care? I'm in a neighborhood with dentists on every corner. Patients here take dentists for granted ( because there are so many of us ) and are able to negotiate to as low as $600 for max molar endo+crown together or maybe $50/filling including the consult and xrays if they are paying in private. Imagine how much worse the local insurance plans are. These clinics meet ends by trying to unnaturally speed up the procedures and cut corners on labwork. This hurts quality of dental work even more. So how is more of this competition better for patients? Dental care has problems as it is, and don't you think more competition will make it worse for both the dentists and the patients?

No offense to you either , but the fact that you went to school in the US and I went to school in the EU is not an indicator that you are a better dentist than me or that I am a better dentist than you.

Do some research about the CA restorative technique exam , see how strict the grading was.

You'll realize that , even though is not an absolute indicator, chances are that a dentist who was able to pass that test is very skilled.

And do some research regarding how the CA State clinical exam compared to NERB, Wreb and the rest , you'll find out that it was the most difficult in the country 10 years ago.

And then make an impartial judgment and tell me that you think that I am not skilled.

No test is perfect , but this is how people get their license.

And answer me the question nobody on this board dares to answer:

Why a foreign grad MD with US residency can practice anywhere in the US , whereas a dentist cannot?


US MD's don't scream like little girls about their colleagues from other countries taking their US jobs



Don't you think that a brain surgeon has a more demanding job , more things can go awfully wrong , still he can practice anywhere in the US, while a CA licensed periodontist has to go to Hygiene school in order to clean teeth in Nevada...

Don't you see the total careless of some dental boards when it comes to doing the right thing for US citizens dentists licensed in other states?
 
No offense man, but you need to know your stuff before creating all this fuss.

-If you are not a EU grad and you get a license in Italy (through equivalency process), this will NOT give you license in France (from a personal experience). Exactly as for Cali's bench.

-If you are not a EU grad and you get a license in Spain (through equivalency exams), you will not be automatically licensed in Ireland (from a colleague/roommate experience). Exactly as for Cali's bench

Bottom line is you need a EU degree to access all the 27 (or whatever) countries. AND you need a US/Canadian degree to access all the 50+10 states/provinces. If you license through equivalency (and not through education) then you are stuck in one place. Live with it.
 
No offense man, but you need to know your stuff before creating all this fuss.

-If you are not a EU grad and you get a license in Italy (through equivalency process), this will NOT give you license in France (from a personal experience). Exactly as for Cali's bench.

-If you are not a EU grad and you get a license in Spain (through equivalency exams), you will not be automatically licensed in Ireland (from a colleague/roommate experience). Exactly as for Cali's bench

Bottom line is you need a EU degree to access all the 27 (or whatever) countries. AND you need a US/Canadian degree to access all the 50+10 states/provinces. If you license through equivalency (and not through education) then you are stuck in one place. Live with it.


That was a very intelligent remark.

I think that such a dentist , licensed in Italy , should be allowed to practice anywhere in the EU , after 5 years of practice in Italy.

Should I go back into US history and tell you how many people did not settle for "live with it" , therefore making US a better country?

I think that you should fight for you French license, if you are licensed in Italy

On the other hand, I am afraid that you will not be successful , since Canada practices blatant discrimination against foreign MD s and DMD s
 
That was a very intelligent remark.

I think that such a dentist , licensed in Italy , should be allowed to practice anywhere in the EU , after 5 years of practice in Italy.

Should I go back into US history and tell you how many people did not settle for "live with it" , therefore making US a better country?

I think that you should fight for you French license, if you are licensed in Italy

On the other hand, I am afraid that you will not be successful , since Canada practices blatant discrimination against foreign MD s and DMD s

Well thanks for your concern about my success.

I wouldn't call it "discrimination". I call it "rules". These rules I knew about before stepping a foot on this land. I think you too were very well informed before you came (or came back if you will) to the US.

Although in Quebec we have a bench exam (similar to the historic Cali's bench), I chose not to take it. I am half way through the 2-years DDS route. But I would NOT blame the system for the decisions I made though.
 
There are some changes in Canada

http://imgi.net/formdswincha.html




internationalmedicalgraduate_2097_80897


[FONT=arial, helvetica]Foreign MDs win chance to work Province announces program in wake of Free Press series

By David Kuxhaus

NORMA Loewen trained to be a doctor in the Philippines but like so many other foreign medical graduates, was unable to get licensed in Canada. For the last 20 years she's worked as a day-care worker and taken on other odd jobs. "Nobody would even accept my resume," said Loewen. "I was so depressed, I would just cry and cry." Calling it the first of its kind in Canada, the province yesterday announced a new program designed to help international medical graduates become practising doctors. "It's my dream come true," said Loewen, who received her medical degree in 1971 and immigrated to Canada in 1974. Last year the Free Press was awarded the B'Nai Brith Human Rights Award for a series of articles that examined the effective blacklisting of foreign-trained doctors in Manitoba despite a physician shortage. The articles sparked a complaint to the Manitoba Human Rights Commission and prompted the provincial government to commit to licensing additional foreign-trained doctors. Yesterday's announcement made good on that commitment. The program will evaluate the skills of international medical graduates and provide further training if needed. "If their skills meet Manitoba standards, they will immediately have access to a conditional licence for practising medicine in Manitoba," said Health Minister Dave Chomiak. Normally doctors who arrive in Canada as immigrants or refugees are discouraged from seeking a medical licence. Those who still wish to pursue a career in medicine must negotiate a complicated and costly series of evaluating and licensing examinations, without government assistance for language or academic upgrading. Now in some instances, Chomiak said, foreign-trained doctors could receive conditional licences in as little as three days. The province and the regional health authorities will provide more than $600,000 in the first year for the development of the program. The yearly budget will be $1 million, which will pay for 10 spots annually. International medical graduates will pay approximately $10,000 to $13,000 each to cover their assessment and licensing costs. Some could begin practising as early as December of this year. Chomiak said the move will help ease the province's doctor shortage. "The advantage of course is huge for Manitoba," said Chomiak. "This is another step in the long road to try and increase the supply of doctors in Manitoba." Pauline Morris, co-ordinator of the Association of Foreign Medical Graduates in Manitoba Inc., said the program is long overdue. "It's a step in the right direction," Morris said, estimating that about 50 international medical graduates could be eligible for the program. However, she said the cost could still make it prohibitive for some. "Where are these people going to get the money?" asked Morris. "Many are involved in low-paying jobs." Chomiak said he realizes that could be a hardship. He said the graduates will be paid while they are training but could not say how much they will receive. The program will be offered in three stages. The first, which is optional, will help candidates with language skills and provide information on legal and ethical issues related to medical practices in Canada. The second stage involves a three-day assessment process which will identify applicants who may be eligible to apply for registration with the College of Physicians and Surgeons immediately. "(The assessment process) provides a reasonable assurance of a physician's capabilities to treat Manitoba citizens safely," said Dr. Bill Pope, registrar of the Manitoba College of Physicians and Surgeons. The second stage will also offer training to physicians whose skills may need to be upgraded. That should take no longer than a year. Dr. Gerry Bristow, associate dean of the faculty of medicine at the University of Manitoba, said the training will be "tailor-made" to suit the needs of graduates. He said each individual will also be assigned his or her own supervisor. "I think it's an exciting program, a very different program and a unique program," said Bristow. In the third stage, eligible medical graduates will be granted conditional medical licences allowing them to work as general practitioners. Chomiak said they will be assigned to under-serviced areas such as those in rural and northern Manitoba. They will also be paired with licensed physicians who will serve as advisers. Within five years, the doctor will be expected to complete the second part of the national licensing examination, which is required for anyone wishing to practise medicine in Canada. However, Morris said more still needs to be done to make it easier for foreign doctors to become licenced. The announcement comes on the heels of a ruling by the Manitoba Human Rights Commission, which said the province should enter into mediation in a dispute with foreign-trained doctors who have complained of discrimination. The complaint centred on discrimination with respect to access to residency programs for doctors who weren't trained in Canada or other approved countries such as the United States, Britain and South Africa. Lawyer Byron Williams, who argued the case on behalf of foreign doctors, said yesterday's announcement doesn't change that situation. "It's an improvement over the existing system," said Williams of the new program. "But I still don't think they are in compliance with the Human Rights Act."

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Well thanks for your concern about my success.

I wouldn't call it "discrimination". I call it "rules". These rules I knew about before stepping a foot on this land. I think you too were very well informed before you came (or came back if you will) to the US.

Although in Quebec we have a bench exam (similar to the historic Cali's bench), I chose not to take it. I am half way through the 2-years DDS route. But I would NOT blame the system for the decisions I made though.

Interesting , I may take the bench test in Quebec for a change...

Are the NDBE 1 and 2 accepted in Canada?


About "stepping foot on this land", you know what?

I am not less American than any other US citizen on this board.

Naturalized or not, I am still American and I'll fight for my rights , even in court , "the American way" , if it has to get to that point
 
Interesting , I may take the bench test in Quebec for a change...

Are the NDBE 1 and 2 accepted in Canada?


About "stepping foot on this land", you know what?

I am not less American than any other US citizen on this board.

Naturalized or not, I am still American and I'll fight for my rights , even in court , "the American way" , if it has to get to that point

The article you posted seems interesting. Gonna read it sometime.

Now Although this is not even remotely related to the point, but you being an american-no-less-than-any-other-american is exactly why I said "before you came or came back to the US". But again, it was your decision to leave the US for DSchool, and it was your decision to come back, and was your decision to write Cali's bench knowing its limitations. US born or naturalized? This is not anyone's business.

Good luck getting your "rights" back, although practicing dentistry is a "privilege" not a "right". I just think that Americans have lots of priorities to worry about other than your desire to work in a different state.
 
The article you posted seems interesting. Gonna read it sometime.

Now Although this is not even remotely related to the point, but you being an american-no-less-than-any-other-american is exactly why I said "before you came or came back to the US". But again, it was your decision to leave the US for DSchool, and it was your decision to come back, and was your decision to write Cali's bench knowing its limitations. US born or naturalized? This is not anyone's business.

Good luck getting your "rights" back, although practicing dentistry is a "privilege" not a "right". I just think that Americans have lots of priorities to worry about other than your desire to work in a different state.


Honestly , I did not know what I was getting into.

I was naive enough to think that I can practice anywhere after 5 years in Cali.

I regret not going to the 2 year program from the start.

But now, since I have already been in practice so many years , I feel that I should be able to get licensed through reciprocity.

At least I should be given the opportunity to get licensed through 1 or 2 year residency, but very few states offer that.


What do you think would benefit my future patients more, in case I get licensed in the state I want to move to:

2 year dental school program , to study things I have already studied, or 2 year specialty?

You sound like a fair guy, I am curious to hear what you think.

Thanks
 
I have an idea, why not put ALL professionals who graduated outside US/Canada through the whole school again?


Why not defend the country from the imminent danger of foreign professionals invading America?

Why not pass a law to force Microsoft to ask all software engineers to be US trained or just leave the country , or get a taxi driver job?


A 2 year international software engineer program should be created asap, just make sure the seats are very limited!!!







Why let Indian /Chinese etc software engineers take our US jobs?

After all , we paid for the US school we went to.

OMG , thank God for those geniuses on this board who think that way.

That kind of mentality will certainly help US in a global economy


Didn't you know that only US grads are qualified?

Didn't you know that ALL other schools in the world are nothing compared to US/Canada and they should be banned in the US?

Why not actually send all the qualified foreign professional back to their countries , since the US graduates spent so much money on their education?
 
I have an idea, why not put ALL professionals who graduated outside US/Canada through the whole school again?


Why not defend the country from the imminent danger of foreign professionals invading America?

Why not pass a law to force Microsoft to ask all software engineers to be US trained or just leave the country , or get a taxi driver job?


A 2 year international software engineer program should be created asap, just make sure the seats are very limited!!!







Why let Indian /Chinese etc software engineers take our US jobs?

After all , we paid for the US school we went to.

OMG , thank God for those geniuses on this board who think that way.

That kind of mentality will certainly help US in a global economy


Didn't you know that only US grads are qualified?

Didn't you know that ALL other schools in the world are nothing compared to US/Canada and they should be banned in the US?

Why not actually send all the qualified foreign professional back to their countries , since the US graduates spent so much money on their education?

the difference being that importing bright talent in an engineering field will spawn more jobs through innovation whereas importing dentists takes away jobs from other dentists in the vicinity without creating new jobs.

i'm sorry cadds but i doubt you'll get much sympathy here.
I'm sure your colleagues in the EU would feel the same as many on this forum if foreign dentists came to their country and set up a clinic across the street. Of course, the licensing organization will look out for their own dentists first before they accommodate foreign dentists.


I'm certainly not saying an education from the EU is worse than a N. American education.
it's just human nature. no one wants to have 300k debt and want competition to increase.

Also, it's unfair to label people as greedy since you do not understand the burden of the debt they have incurred during their education.
If you had to pay thousands of dollars in student loan every month, would you be happy about an influx of foreign trained dentists?
 
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Not more , not less could mean equally educated, ever thought of that one?


Have you thought that some people consider moving to the US not for the money , but for a new life experience, for something different?

Or maybe they have many friends here?

Or they like the weather in CA?





I do not hear any Western European dentists screaming like little girls OMG , what are we going to do , Eastern European dentists are flooding our countries and drop the prices.

Due to higher income in W Europe, many doctors moved from E to W, yet I do not hear W doctors screaming like little girls



Only people on this forums do that.

W European dentists treat E European dentists with respect , they treat them as their colleagues.

Canadian and most US dental boards are the North Koreas and Cubas of dental boards, totally isolated in this world , trying to prevent

Florida does anything possible to stop even US grads, it says a lot about what is going on in the US when it comes to DDS licensure

I like the excitement of big city life so I live and work in the biggest one in the US. Based on that, I'd love to experience the life and culture in some of the large European cities but I'm not even going to bother looking into the impediments of practicing in Europe with a US degree. I'm even super qualified - graduated at the top of my high school, college, and dental school classes and did two dental residencies and have 5 years of private practice experience! I know there are roadblocks and it's not worth it for me to fight them just because I like living in big cities. One of my dental friends moved to Europe for love with her American DDS and a GPR at a good program. Her new country of residence didn't care one bit what her past education was. She got to experience dental school all over again in Europe in a second language. She jumped through all the hoops to be able to practice there. You're lucky California gave you a chance. BTW, foreign medical grads are not able to come here and set up shop from day one like you did. They must go through an entire residency just like American grads. The number of spots available in US residencies are carefully controlled so there will not be a glut of foreign medical grads overpopulating the medical profession because US grads will be given a chance first.
 
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I like the excitement of big city life so I live and work in the biggest one in the US. Based on that, I'd love to experience the life and culture in some of the large European cities but I'm not even going to bother looking into the impediments of practicing in Europe with a US degree. I'm even super qualified - graduated at the top of my high school, college, and dental school classes and did two dental residencies and have 5 years of private practice experience! I know there are roadblocks and it's not worth it for me to fight them just because I like living in big cities. One of my dental friends moved to Europe for love with her American DDS and a GPR at a good program. Her new country of residence didn't care one bit what her past education was. She got to experience dental school all over again in Europe in a second language. She jumped through all the hoops to be able to practice there. You're lucky California gave you a chance. BTW, foreign medical grads are not able to come here and set up shop from day one like you did. They must go through an entire residency just like American grads. The number of spots available in US residencies are carefully controlled so there will not be a glut of foreign medical grads overpopulating the medical profession because US grads will be given a chance first.

What happened to her is sad and unfair, but what would you expect from the EU considering the situation in North Americas

At least medical grads from abroad have the licensure through US residency path , after which they are free to practice anywhere in the US.

Whereas I do NOT have that chance ,except a very few states, this is what I've been trying to say, why not do a residency instead of the 2 year International DDS program.

A residency would make me a better dentist than the 2 year dental school program would.

My patients would benefit from that.

I am very grateful to the Dental Board of California for offering me the possibility of being licensed here

EU dentists would not drive down the prices and would not flood the US.

US state dental boards are even scared of each other

80 % of US dentists want universal dental licensure.

The biggest opposition comes from CA and Florida dentists
 
Tennessee law gives the dental board discretion to issue a limited license for the practice of dentistry in American Dental Association accredited institutions or dental education programs or in federally-designated health professional shortage areas, to a graduate of an unaccredited general dentistry program that is substantially equivalent to either a DDS or DMD degree and who successfully
STATE EDUCATIONAL REQUIREMENTS
completed an advanced education program in a recognized specialty branch of dentistry from an ADA Commission on Dental
Accreditation accredited program. Equivalency of the general dentistry program is determined by a Course-by-Course Evaluation Report from the Educational Credentials Evaluators, Inc.

http://ada.org/sections/educationAndCareers/pdfs/licensure_state_requirements_intl.pdf


I am reading this and I am just stunned seeing what the dental board of Tennessee does: blatant discrimination , plain and simple.

I have a question for you , members of the Dental Board of Tennessee:

Are those people in shortage area "second class" citizens served by "inferior , second class dentists" ( which in fact may be more educated than you , since they competed a specialty program in the US)?

Please , any of you


Ruth E. Bailey, D.D.S. President Dentist 03-31-2012 James L. Smith, D.D.S. Vice-President Dentist 03-31-2011 John M. Douglass, Jr., D.D.S. Sec./Tres. Dentist 03-31-2010 Marlene S. Fullilove R.D.H Board Member Dental Hygienist 06-30-2012 Katherine H. Cherry, R.D.H. Board Member Dental Hygienist 03-31-2011 Jeffrey M. Clark, D.D.S. Board Member Dentist 03-31-2010 Betty G. Fox, R.D.A. Board Member Registered Dental Assistant 03-31-2012 Lawrence Hsia, D.M.D Board Member Dentist 03-31-2011 Isaac Fordjour, D.D.S. Board Member Dentist 03-31-2012 Michael P. Tabor, D.D.S. Board Member Dentist 06-30-2010 Agnes S. Young Board Member Citizen 03-31-2011


help me understand how a dentist would be qualified enough to work in a shortage area, but not qualified enough to see ANY patient in your state?


Don't we have a little bit of contradiction here?

You will google your names and you will find this , I hope that the elected officials will find it too , change the law and stop the blatant discrimination
 
http://www.aipso.ca/pages/docs/RHPA.html

Foreign-trained physicians occupied about 500-1100 or 1200 residency positions in the past but this will fall to less than one hundred (Pre-Internship Program graduates) shortly. A foreign-trained Canadian citizen or landed immigrant physician is now discriminated against by the present system for gaining admission to residency programs as of 1994, because he/she would be excluded from consideration on the merits (other than through the limited number entry through PIP). Clearly this approach is unfair to such a candidate and just as clearly this approach means that not all the most qualified persons will become specialists to the detriment of both the profession and the public…

Clearly the maintenance of necessary public standards is a reasonable and bona fide ground for discrimination on the basis of jurisdiction of education or training, but the question, then is - can the public interest be protected while at the same time the foreign-trained person's application for licensure is accommodated without undue hardship? Is there available an alternative, less onerous approach that would ensure the public interest is protected? The obvious answer to this question, as seen from the case at hand, is that the residency program itself will only graduate those residents who meet the medical profession's standards. (Neizmanski, 24 CHRR D/193)
 
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6920/10/5

We found three relevant studies. Two were directed at the application process and used similar paired data designs, while a third surveyed surgical residency program directors for their perceptions about IMGs (cross-sectional study design).
One study sent applications to 146 family practice residency programs randomly selected from the 384 programs in the Directory of Graduate Medical Education Programs, 1991-1992 (38% sampled) [9]. The letters requested information and an application. All letters were identical except that the author of the first set was described as "a foreign medical graduate" while the author of the second was described as "a fourth-year medical student at the University of Nebraska Medical Center". Pseudonyms were used and surnames were selected that "would not suggest any particular ethnic group". Only a first initial was used to eliminate the possibility of gender bias. The letters from the IMG were sent first, and those from the USMG followed one week later. Of the 146 requests, 143 were received by programs.
When analyzed at 6 weeks by any response, 102 programs (71%) responded to the fourth-year medical student and 57 (40%) to the foreign graduate (relative response, U.S. medical student to foreign graduate: 1.8). Of the 46 programs responding to both, 9 required the foreign graduate to meet standards that exceeded requirements set by the ECFMG. When analyzed by reception of application forms, 39 programs sent applications to both (27%), 60 to only the U.S. medical student applicant (42%), 10 to only the foreign graduate (7%) and 34 to neither (24%) (relative application response, U.S. medical student to foreign graduate: 2.0; p < .01).
The second study sent identical requests (details not provided) for a program application to 193 psychiatry residency training programs, omitting those in Michigan since the persons requesting applications were enrolled in a Michigan program. The letters differed in only two respects: the names of the writers (one "American" and one "Pakistani") and the medical schools from which they graduated (Wayne State University School of Medicine and King Edward Medical College). Letters were sent one week apart. Five programs reported they were closed, leaving 188 for analysis.
When analyzed by any response, 99 programs (53%) responded to both applicants, 60 only to the USMG (32%), 6 only to the IMG (3%) and 23 to neither requestor (12%) (p < .001; relative response, USMG to IMG: 1.5). When analyzed by reception of application forms, the USMG received 159 responses with application forms (85% response rate) while the IMG received 87 responses with application forms (46%) (p < .001; relative application response, USMG to IMG: 1.8) [10]. The authors also report that in the year prior to their study, psychiatry residency slots remained empty, with only 84 percent of available positions filled.
The third study surveyed all 283 members of the Association of Program Directors of Surgery in 2007 [11]. Of these, they determined that 261 were active at the time of the survey and this was their targeted study population; 125 directors responded (48%) and 112 were analyzed. Most of the program directors were male (95%). They were 52 years of age (range: 37, 71 years) on average and their median tenor as program directors was 7 years; 90% reported being USMGs and 8% IMGs; and 49% were university-based and 47% community-based.
In response to five-point Likert-scale questions, 69 (59, 77) (95% binomial confidence interval) percent of directors strongly agreed, agreed or were neutral to the statement that on standardized exams IMGs perform as well as USMGs and 79 (70, 85) percent strongly agreed, agreed or were neutral to the statement that surgical skill level, as measured by performance in the operating room, is equal or better for IMGs compared to USMGs. For the statement, "In reality, all things being equal, our program would rather offer positions to USMGs than to IMGs", 97 (92, 99) percent agreed or were neutral (strongly agreed [47%], agreed [40%], neutral [10%]). In response to a yes or no question, 18 (11, 26) percent of directors answered that they had felt external pressure not to rank a better qualified IMG over a USMG and 71 percent felt that IMGs are discriminated against.
 
the difference being that importing bright talent in an engineering field will spawn more jobs through innovation whereas importing dentists takes away jobs from other dentists in the vicinity without creating new jobs.

i'm sorry cadds but i doubt you'll get much sympathy here.
I'm sure your colleagues in the EU would feel the same as many on this forum if foreign dentists came to their country and set up a clinic across the street. Of course, the licensing organization will look out for their own dentists first before they accommodate foreign dentists.


I'm certainly not saying an education from the EU is worse than a N. American education.
it's just human nature. no one wants to have 300k debt and want competition to increase.

Also, it's unfair to label people as greedy since you do not understand the burden of the debt they have incurred during their education.
If you had to pay thousands of dollars in student loan every month, would you be happy about an influx of foreign trained dentists?


I do understand your point , but , as I previously said, I am US citizen , I am paying my dues and I FEEL DISCRIMINATED against by some dental boards

Regardless of that 300k some people have , remember that I spent many years of my life in school , just like any of the US graduates .

I do not see any state dental board explaining on it's web page why all foreign dental schools are so inadequate .

Please enlighten me ,US dental boards, what is so bad about EU schools?

Why I do not see a single dental board member on this board with an explanation?



Do you think that Europeans have different dental anatomy?

There is no description of any efforts they make to correct the situation.

If they are so concerned with the standards, why not set up a very tough bench test , like some states had?


Why not recognize US trained specialists with foreign DDS degree?


Why I do not hear any complains about an influx of foreign cars, architects , medical doctors , software engineers,etc

Why only dentists?

What is the next step for the US and Canada licensing boards?

The Commission of Accreditation of Foreign trained Dish Washers?

After all, their dish washing training was cheaper abroad


Please do not take our dish-washing jobs!

Stay in Europe!
 
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2261293290&topic=2643

Looks like dentists from Australia are getting screwed by the US dental boards also

We must realise that the UK is now formally part of the EU; and it is in our best interest to look at other options for the future.
Because Australia is so geographically isolated from the rest of the world, we could greatly benefit from some other strong reciprocal agreements with other similar, western, first world, English-speaking nations, namely the United States and Canada.

Currently the US and Canada share a reciprocal agreement between each other similar to the agreement still held between Australia and New Zealand. Recently there has been a push in the United States and Canada to seek out more international ties as well and are open to the idea of creating a formal reciprocal agreement with Australia and New Zealand to unite the 4 countries and to allow a free flow of licensed professionals between the countrie
 
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