Podiatry: Best Kept Secret

[cougarblue84]

Is podiatry one of the best kept secrets in medicine?

Seems like a lot of applicants learned about podiatry later in college, as an alternative to DO or MD, or after pursuing other medical professions. I also know several current podiatry students who were familiar with almost all branches of medicine, except for podiatry.

Do you expect this will change in the future?

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[MedMan25]

I can only speak for myself but I was fully aware of the podiatry profession before I applied to medical school and I knew from the beginning it wasn't something I wanted to pursue. Now that I'm approaching the end of medical school, I still feel the same way. I have nothing against podiatrists or podiatric medicine, it's just not something I was ever interested in. From my own perspective, I believe most people who choose to go the MD/DO route are fully aware that there are other options out there (podiatry school, dental school, etc.) but because of personal interests are more inclined to becoming an MD/DO versus a podiatrist.

 

[air bud]

Is podiatry one of the best kept secrets in medicine?

Seems like a lot of applicants learned about podiatry later in college, as an alternative to DO or MD, or after pursuing other medical professions. I also know several current podiatry students who were familiar with almost all branches of medicine, except for podiatry.

Do you expect this will change in the future?

Listen, not to be pessimistic, but there is a usually a reason why a large percentage (NOT all) learn about podiatry as an "alternative." That being said, I often tell my wife how glad I am that this is where my path led me. For a variety of reasons too.

 

[Xforward22]

I have heard podiatry being referenced as the best kept secret in medicine because it is supposedly the 7th highest paid physician specialty with one of the lowest malpractice costs (around 9k a year, which is especially cheap considering it's a surgical specialty). They also say that b/c, again supposedly, podiatrists work much less and enjoy a better quality of life than other surgeons who experience more time on call, longer hours etc.

Also, many people also don't realize how well-trained podiatrists are in foot and ankle surgery, and what they can do with that training. It used to be that podiatrists clipped toe nails and made orthotics, but now they can do everything from plastic surgery on the foot to ankle reconstructive surgery. In my opinion, it is a pretty good gig that many people don't fully understand.

 

[air bud]

I have heard podiatry being referenced as the best kept secret in medicine because it is supposedly the 7th highest paid physician specialty with one of the lowest malpractice costs (around 9k a year, which is especially cheap considering it's a surgical specialty). They also say that b/c, again supposedly, podiatrists work much less and enjoy a better quality of life than other surgeons who experience more time on call, longer hours etc.

Also, many people also don't realize how well-trained podiatrists are in foot and ankle surgery, and what they can do with that training. It used to be that podiatrists clipped toe nails and made orthotics, but now they can do everything from plastic surgery on the foot to ankle reconstructive surgery. In my opinion, it is a pretty good gig that many people don't fully understand.

You want the money?
You work the hours.
This whole "work less hours, make great money, great quality of life" misconception continues. You can do 1 & 3, 2 & 3, but not all 3

 

[doc1107]

I don't know. I wouldn't go that far to say it is the best kept secret because many Pre-med students have considered it, but many have other options.

These include:

1. Doing a post bac and reapplying to MD schools. Post bacs are more and more common these days
2. Apply to a DO school. DO school's are on par with stats needs for POD school, perhaps a bit higher but come on, if you are a serious pre-med, your GPA and mcat are usually in the 3.3-3.6 range with Mcat around 24-29. Otherwise, most students would have stopped the premed track long ago
3. Caribbean Med schools are popping up more and more and the taboo surrounding them have gone away alot.
4. DO and MD are starting to be seen as the same level and degree

The bad about POD:

1. Don't have a chance to choose. You are stuck with feet and ankle
2. the social perception of a POD is still not where it should be
3. A DO or MD def. have more job opportunities.
4. Many people just find feet gross

I guess the biggest thing is respect. One of my friends son didn't get into med school last year. I sugguested POD but he was reluctant because Ortho can do ankle and feet and much more! Also he said an MD or DO does open more doors. This year he got into a DO program so I guess it worked out for him.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Xforward22]

I disagree with some of your points.

3. Most still don't require the MCAT. Average pod MCAT scores may be lower than MD (and you're right about them being similar to DO), but at least you have to take the thing.

"Bad about podiatry" remarks I disagree with:

1. This is my main argument in favor of podiatry b/c you DO get to choose, whereas MDs and DOs are ultimately at the mercy of someone else. DPMs are guaranteed a surgical residency from the start of your white coat ceremony, plus you get to work in a realm of other specialties throughout your career. You make residency placement sound like a piece of cake. MDs and DOs open an envelope after 4 years of blood, sweat, and tears, and that envelope holds their destiny. The best will make their top choice, of course, but its also subject to the same politics as getting into med school in the first place (affirmative action, who you know and not what you know), so someone who set out to be an orthopedic surgeon might end up in family practice or proctology. And you think feet are gross?

While its true that some will use pod as a backup plan, I feel that most, like myself, are intrigued by specializing in such a specific area. Any general practitioner will tell you to specialize this day in age. Why not start early and be the best at the lower extremity?

I don't know. I wouldn't go that far to say it is the best kept secret because many Pre-med students have considered it, but many have other options.

These include:

1. Doing a post bac and reapplying to MD schools. Post bacs are more and more common these days
2. Apply to a DO school. DO school's are on par with stats needs for POD school, perhaps a bit higher but come on, if you are a serious pre-med, your GPA and mcat are usually in the 3.3-3.6 range with Mcat around 24-29. Otherwise, most students would have stopped the premed track long ago
3. Caribbean Med schools are popping up more and more and the taboo surrounding them have gone away alot.
4. DO and MD are starting to be seen as the same level and degree

The bad about POD:

1. Don't have a chance to choose. You are stuck with feet and ankle
2. the social perception of a POD is still not where it should be
3. A DO or MD def. have more job opportunities.
4. Many people just find feet gross

I guess the biggest thing is respect. One of my friends son didn't get into med school last year. I sugguested POD but he was reluctant because Ortho can do ankle and feet and much more! Also he said an MD or DO does open more doors. This year he got into a DO program so I guess it worked out for him.

Just my 2 cents

 

[PADPM]

You want the money?
You work the hours.
This whole "work less hours, make great money, great quality of life" misconception continues. You can do 1 & 3, 2 & 3, but not all 3

You are correct. I'm REALLY tired about hearing the "urban legend" regarding the "easier lifestyle", "less hours" b.s.

If you want to be successful and you want to earn a better than average income AND you have a busy office, be prepared to work hard and put in long hours. Fortunately, our office has an excellent reputation and is extremely busy. As a result, we receive a LOT of referrals from many primary care physicians and a LOT of consults from these PCP's at local hospitals, as well as consults from the hospitalists at the hospitals. As a result, we work very long hours and treat a tremendous amount of patients.

That doesn't happen by working "less hours" with an "easier lifestyle" in our profession or ANY profession.

I left my home at 5:45 a.m. yesterday to treat patients, then went to the hospital to start surgical cases and had a few "add-on" cases from consults (diabetics with wounds) and ended up performing 7 cases. I then had to run to another hospital for a wound consult (all our partners have a 24 hour "on call" for consults, and yesterday was my day), and as a result I got home at 8:45 p.m. If you want to call that an "easy day", please let me know.

To succeed in any profession or business, you have to work hard. So if you are considering entering the podiatric profession with the thought that it's easy money with less hours, etc., I believe you may want to reconsider.

Yes, you can certainly work 10, 20, 25 hours a week, but then you'll be one of those docs at the seminars who complains about how you can't make ends meet, etc., etc., etc. Be prepared to work hard, be honest and ethical and the financial rewards will come.

 

[bobdolerson]

I disagree with some of your points.

3. Most still don't require the MCAT. Average pod MCAT scores may be lower than MD (and you're right about them being similar to DO), but at least you have to take the thing.

Are you talking about DPM programs? Only 2 don't require it, unless I understand it wrong, and of the two, one requires another science-specific exam (DAT) and only one (Temple) takes the GRE.

Many people just find feet gross

I'll take a dirty foot over a dirty butt or mouth any day.

 

[UNMorBUST]

Are you talking about DPM programs? Only 2 don't require it, unless I understand it wrong, and of the two, one requires another science-specific exam (DAT) and only one (Temple) takes the GRE.

I'll take a dirty foot over a dirty butt or mouth any day.

Xforward was replying to the quote he posted. He was referring to med schools in the carribean.

 

[bobdolerson]

Oh, gotcha; didn't see the 3 there. Thanks for clearing it up!

 

[emericana]

Are you talking about DPM programs? Only 2 don't require it, unless I understand it wrong, and of the two, one requires another science-specific exam (DAT) and only one (Temple) takes the GRE.

I'll take a dirty foot over a dirty butt or mouth any day.

I mean it's all a personal preference. You are going to get your hands dirty in nasty stuff in most medical / science professions.

If you are a PhD you clean up rat and mice crap and piss.

If you are a gyno I can't even imagine some of the nastiness you have to see. I would never be able to have sex again if that was my profession.

If you are a proctologist or urologist.. Well you get the picture.

So what is nastier? The foot? The butt and genitals? Someones mouth who hasn't brushed in forever? I mean seriously ... I guess it's personal preference.

 

[doc1107]

I disagree with some of your points.

3. Most still don't require the MCAT. Average pod MCAT scores may be lower than MD (and you're right about them being similar to DO), but at least you have to take the thing.

"Bad about podiatry" remarks I disagree with:

1. This is my main argument in favor of podiatry b/c you DO get to choose, whereas MDs and DOs are ultimately at the mercy of someone else. DPMs are guaranteed a surgical residency from the start of your white coat ceremony, plus you get to work in a realm of other specialties throughout your career. You make residency placement sound like a piece of cake. MDs and DOs open an envelope after 4 years of blood, sweat, and tears, and that envelope holds their destiny. The best will make their top choice, of course, but its also subject to the same politics as getting into med school in the first place (affirmative action, who you know and not what you know), so someone who set out to be an orthopedic surgeon might end up in family practice or proctology. And you think feet are gross?

While its true that some will use pod as a backup plan, I feel that most, like myself, are intrigued by specializing in such a specific area. Any general practitioner will tell you to specialize this day in age. Why not start early and be the best at the lower extremity?

Actually, most of the Carb. school require the MCAT. I know this because my friends son was doing it. Maybe a few years ago they didn't need it? BUt nowadays, they ALL require it. (ALL meaning the BIG 4 Carb: Ross, St. George, and some other ones that I can't remember)


About the residency guarantee, that is NOT true at all. Look at the situation PODs are right now? This year alone, many students will be left without any residency. And look in the past, there was a shortage in the 90's and also in the 80's. IN fact, with a DO or MD, you can always be a general practitioner and those residencies are easy to get. Whereas, a POD without an residency can't LEGALLY practice in a lot of states! Heck, even a Dentist can be a dentist without an residency.

 

[doc1107]

Are you talking about DPM programs? Only 2 don't require it, unless I understand it wrong, and of the two, one requires another science-specific exam (DAT) and only one (Temple) takes the GRE.

I'll take a dirty foot over a dirty butt or mouth any day.

just a side comment, starting next year, those two schools will only take the MCAT

 

[cougarblue84]

just a side comment, starting next year, those two schools will only take the MCAT

Source? Hadn't heard this.

 

[doc1107]

Source? Hadn't heard this.

someone on here called both schools and asked. Also I think there is a big push for all schools to take only the MCAT. Tho i don't agree with schools not taking the DAT though since I think that is pretty close to the MCAT.

 

[Xforward22]

That is why I used the word "supposedly" twice in my post. It is what prospective students hear, but I always figured that was a myth ... if you want to be the best, that is. So tell me, PADPM, are you still happy as a podiatrist even though you work hard? Would you have gone MD if you could do it over again?

You are correct. I'm REALLY tired about hearing the "urban legend" regarding the "easier lifestyle", "less hours" b.s.

If you want to be successful and you want to earn a better than average income AND you have a busy office, be prepared to work hard and put in long hours. Fortunately, our office has an excellent reputation and is extremely busy. As a result, we receive a LOT of referrals from many primary care physicians and a LOT of consults from these PCP's at local hospitals, as well as consults from the hospitalists at the hospitals. As a result, we work very long hours and treat a tremendous amount of patients.

That doesn't happen by working "less hours" with an "easier lifestyle" in our profession or ANY profession.

I left my home at 5:45 a.m. yesterday to treat patients, then went to the hospital to start surgical cases and had a few "add-on" cases from consults (diabetics with wounds) and ended up performing 7 cases. I then had to run to another hospital for a wound consult (all our partners have a 24 hour "on call" for consults, and yesterday was my day), and as a result I got home at 8:45 p.m. If you want to call that an "easy day", please let me know.

To succeed in any profession or business, you have to work hard. So if you are considering entering the podiatric profession with the thought that it's easy money with less hours, etc., I believe you may want to reconsider.

Yes, you can certainly work 10, 20, 25 hours a week, but then you'll be one of those docs at the seminars who complains about how you can't make ends meet, etc., etc., etc. Be prepared to work hard, be honest and ethical and the financial rewards will come.

 

[malleolusman]

The only legitimate carribbean medical school is St. Georges University. All the rest of them are complete crap and its a total crapshoot if students make it out of their and find a residency training program back in the US. Some of the carribbean schools dont even require you to take the MCAT. To top it off carribbean schools are ridiculously expensive. I'd rather be a podiatrist then to try to get through med school in a 3rd world country. Going to DO school is a significantly better option then going to carribbean med school IMO.

It is by no means a crapshoot. The NRMP, and the allopathic process of matching in general is much more systematic than podiatry since much of it rides your USMLE Step 1 score. You could have bad grades, a nasty personality, a 99 two-digit score on Step 1, and match into Urology.

For one, we don't have a great equalizer like USMLE Step 1 -- spare me the talk about the NBPME, we do have grades, but the differences in education quality and sub par students are quite real so we work with grades, "passing" part I, our externships, and academic interviews during CRIPs in order to match students. Our CASPR doesn't offer organized match statistics, they instead offer us podiatry schools by ethnic ID, but nothing about match stats over the years.

I think Caribbean schools get a very bad rep and SOME rightfully so, but I disagree about "st.georges" being the end be all when it comes to the schools. ALMOST all the schools do place grads into US residencies. Even those US-born foreign med graduates match in specialties like family med with scores of 190+ (equates roughly to a 77 or 78 or ----75 is passing).

According to the NRMP for 2010,

For US born Graduates of Foreign Medical Schools (including carrib)
Active Applicants 3,695
Matched PGY1: 1749
Unmatched PGY1: 1946
Withdrew: 946
No Rank List: 849

Total US-born FMGs: 5,508

Or in other words, 47% of US born FMGs applying for the first time MATCH into a specialty. Note, Unmatched PGY1s have already completed 1 year of residency (don't know what). The numbers are daunting but are by no means a 'crapshoot' -- and as an aside if you don't match - you still have MANY options provided if you're a US citizen.

The comparison of podiatry schools to Caribbean med schools isn't a fair one unless you take into account the variables. They both take sub-par students, but in the Caribbean those sub-par students get to take the big boy exam that decides much of their future. Caribbean schools have a lot of foreign students as well, who can't get into a US medical school due to VISA issues as well english difficulty. Again, it really breaks down to how you do on Step 1. Residencies will and often do sponsor foreign FMGs with stellar Step 1s, all the way from Africa to Hungary to Pakistan to the Carribbean. US med school or foreign med school, Step 1 is the determining factor.

 

[PADPM]

That is why I used the word "supposedly" twice in my post. It is what prospective students hear, but I always figured that was a myth ... if you want to be the best, that is. So tell me, PADPM, are you still happy as a podiatrist even though you work hard? Would you have gone MD if you could do it over again?

I find your question very interesting, especially the part "are you still happy as a podiatrist even though you work hard?"

Are you expecting to succeed at any profession by not working hard?

Unless I've misread your question, or you simply didn't word it correctly, I would hope that you are going to expect to work hard as a podiatry student, resident and as a practicing doctor.

And I can tell you that when I had part time jobs as a kid, when I had jobs during the summer in high school, college, podiatric medical school, etc., I always "worked hard", because that's my nature. So even if I decided not to be a DPM, I would be working hard at any profession I chose.

I know a lot of very successful DPMs and don't know any of them who obtained success without working hard, but for that matter, I don't know anyone in any business who has achieved success who didn't work hard or who isn't still working hard.

The only exceptions I can think of are people I know who inherited a very successful existing business. But often, when they "slacked off", they ran these businesses into the ground.

And I have no regrets, though plastic surgery would have been a nice choice simply because they receive payment for services directly from the patient without the hassle of insurance companies. Therefore, they receive 100% of their bill. If our practice received 100% of our billings, we'd ALL be retired a very long time ago.

But I'd like you to realize one important fact. Hard work shouldn't be looked upon as a negative. If I wasn't working hard it would indicate my practice wasn't busy, and I'm fortunate to be busy, so I'm happy to be working hard. It's a positive, not a negative.

If you don't want to work hard, I hope you are going to inherit a lot of money or marry well.

 

[beyoncefan]

I'll take a dirty foot over a dirty butt or mouth any day.

same here

 

[FC Omar]

someone on here called both schools and asked. Also I think there is a big push for all schools to take only the MCAT. Tho i don't agree with schools not taking the DAT though since I think that is pretty close to the MCAT.

having studied for the DAT 3 times, and now studying the MCAT, they are not very close. material wise, almost (i never had to remember physics for the dat), test strategy absolutely not.

DAT was a regurgitation exam. if you knew your gen bio, gen chem, and o chem, and college algebra/precalc, you would do fine. it seems like now i have to learn how to critically think. this is a biatchisness.

 

[doc1107]

It is by no means a crapshoot. The NRMP, and the allopathic process of matching in general is much more systematic than podiatry since much of it rides your USMLE Step 1 score. You could have bad grades, a nasty personality, a 99 two-digit score on Step 1, and match into Urology.

For one, we don't have a great equalizer like USMLE Step 1 -- spare me the talk about the NBPME, we do have grades, but the differences in education quality and sub par students are quite real so we work with grades, "passing" part I, our externships, and academic interviews during CRIPs in order to match students. Our CASPR doesn't offer organized match statistics, they instead offer us podiatry schools by ethnic ID, but nothing about match stats over the years.

I think Caribbean schools get a very bad rep and SOME rightfully so, but I disagree about "st.georges" being the end be all when it comes to the schools. ALMOST all the schools do place grads into US residencies. Even those US-born foreign med graduates match in specialties like family med with scores of 190+ (equates roughly to a 77 or 78 or ----75 is passing).

According to the NRMP for 2010,

For US born Graduates of Foreign Medical Schools (including carrib)
Active Applicants 3,695
Matched PGY1: 1749
Unmatched PGY1: 1946
Withdrew: 946
No Rank List: 849

Total US-born FMGs: 5,508

Or in other words, 47% of US born FMGs applying for the first time MATCH into a specialty. Note, Unmatched PGY1s have already completed 1 year of residency (don't know what). The numbers are daunting but are by no means a 'crapshoot' -- and as an aside if you don't match - you still have MANY options provided if you're a US citizen.

The comparison of podiatry schools to Caribbean med schools isn't a fair one unless you take into account the variables. They both take sub-par students, but in the Caribbean those sub-par students get to take the big boy exam that decides much of their future. Caribbean schools have a lot of foreign students as well, who can't get into a US medical school due to VISA issues as well english difficulty. Again, it really breaks down to how you do on Step 1. Residencies will and often do sponsor foreign FMGs with stellar Step 1s, all the way from Africa to Hungary to Pakistan to the Carribbean. US med school or foreign med school, Step 1 is the determining factor.

I agree with you. Also, what should be kept in mind is that there are some carb schools that takes anyone with a pulse and then weed out the bad students. So therefore, some stats are low because those students don't even apply for placement because their scores and GPA are so bad.

Carb schools are actually not a bad deal if you work hard. I have a friend whose parents are both graduates of Carb schools and they are pretty renowned in their field. The dad is a co-director of a center and the mother is an attending at a large hospital.

 

[emericana]

It is by no means a crapshoot. The NRMP, and the allopathic process of matching in general is much more systematic than podiatry since much of it rides your USMLE Step 1 score. You could have bad grades, a nasty personality, a 99 two-digit score on Step 1, and match into Urology.

For one, we don't have a great equalizer like USMLE Step 1 -- spare me the talk about the NBPME, we do have grades, but the differences in education quality and sub par students are quite real so we work with grades, "passing" part I, our externships, and academic interviews during CRIPs in order to match students. Our CASPR doesn't offer organized match statistics, they instead offer us podiatry schools by ethnic ID, but nothing about match stats over the years.

I think Caribbean schools get a very bad rep and SOME rightfully so, but I disagree about "st.georges" being the end be all when it comes to the schools. ALMOST all the schools do place grads into US residencies. Even those US-born foreign med graduates match in specialties like family med with scores of 190+ (equates roughly to a 77 or 78 or ----75 is passing).

According to the NRMP for 2010,

For US born Graduates of Foreign Medical Schools (including carrib)
Active Applicants 3,695
Matched PGY1: 1749
Unmatched PGY1: 1946
Withdrew: 946
No Rank List: 849

Total US-born FMGs: 5,508

Or in other words, 47% of US born FMGs applying for the first time MATCH into a specialty. Note, Unmatched PGY1s have already completed 1 year of residency (don't know what). The numbers are daunting but are by no means a 'crapshoot' -- and as an aside if you don't match - you still have MANY options provided if you're a US citizen.

The comparison of podiatry schools to Caribbean med schools isn't a fair one unless you take into account the variables. They both take sub-par students, but in the Caribbean those sub-par students get to take the big boy exam that decides much of their future. Caribbean schools have a lot of foreign students as well, who can't get into a US medical school due to VISA issues as well english difficulty. Again, it really breaks down to how you do on Step 1. Residencies will and often do sponsor foreign FMGs with stellar Step 1s, all the way from Africa to Hungary to Pakistan to the Carribbean. US med school or foreign med school, Step 1 is the determining factor.

Just curious, what about step 2 and 3? Why do these not have to do with getting a residency out of the Carib?

 

[MedMan25]

According to the NRMP for 2010,

For US born Graduates of Foreign Medical Schools (including carrib)
Active Applicants 3,695
Matched PGY1: 1749
Unmatched PGY1: 1946
Withdrew: 946
No Rank List: 849

Total US-born FMGs: 5,508

Or in other words, 47% of US born FMGs applying for the first time MATCH into a specialty. The numbers are daunting but are by no means a 'crapshoot'

Actually, your odds of winning a pass bet in craps is roughly 49.29% which is better than your odds of matching as an FMG (source - http://www.herkimershideaway.org/writings/craps.htm ). In my opinion, you're taking a huge risk betting 4 years of your life and nearly $250K of your money on a Caribbean school who only offers you a 47% chance of finding a residency when you're done. And that's only if you're lucky enough to make it that far since most Caribbean schools have an attrition rate of nearly 50%.

The comparison of podiatry schools to Caribbean med schools isn't a fair one unless you take into account the variables. They both take sub-par students, but in the Caribbean those sub-par students get to take the big boy exam that decides much of their future. US med school or foreign med school, Step 1 is the determining factor.

The sub-par students at the Caribbean schools end up with sub-par scores on step 1. They are the ones who make up the 47% who don't match and end up struggling to find jobs that will allow them to repay the enormous debt they have been accumulating for the last 4 years. Yes, there are those who go to a Caribbean school, rock step 1 and land a prestigious residency but cases like that are few and far between. Even Carib grads who do well on step 1 are at a huge disadvantage as many US residency programs prefer applicants who were trained in the US. I know of program directors personally who have said they don't even consider Carib grads, regardless of their step 1 score.

Podiatry schools offer their students a better deal than the Caribbean schools do. At least with podiatry school you are nearly guaranteed employment when you finish at a high paying salary. Going to a Caribbean school, chances are you're not even going to match. I'd take my chances at the casino before going to a Carib school.

and as an aside if you don't match - you still have MANY options provided if you're a US citizen.

Not really. Without a residency it is virtually impossible to find decent paying clinical work. Non-clinical jobs are out there but most of them are looking for MDs with years of clinical experience, not something a Carib grad who hasn't completed a residency would have. In this economy, looking for a high paying job with nothing more than a diploma from medical school is not going to get you very far. That's pretty scary when you have a mortgage-sized loan to pay off. My point is, if you're going to spend upwards of a quarter mil on an education, you better be sure it promises you a healthy salary when you finish. Podiatry school offers such a promise, Carib schools not so much.

 

[MedMan25]

Just curious, what about step 2 and 3? Why do these not have to do with getting a residency out of the Carib?

Most residency programs also look at your step 2 score but generally not as much emphasis is placed on step 2 as is on step 1. Additionally, at most schools step 2 can be taken during the fall of 4th year after residency applications have been sent and many residency programs don't require a step 2 score before you apply.

Step 3 is taken after medical school during residency.

 

[malleolusman]

Actually, your odds of winning a pass bet in craps is roughly 49.29% which is better than your odds of matching as an FMG (source - http://www.herkimershideaway.org/writings/craps.htm ). In my opinion, you're taking a huge risk betting 4 years of your life and nearly $250K of your money on a Caribbean school who only offers you a 47% chance of finding a residency when you're done. And that's only if you're lucky enough to make it that far since most Caribbean schools have an attrition rate of nearly 50%.

My point was stating that the Caribbean is a crapshoot is not accurate, even if the numbers are similar to a crapshoot game. Residency matching is not gambling, nor is it a game, it is systematic. Going to the professional school is only akin to gambling if you are a weak student. It is not so much a matter of chance as it is a matter of being a good student (step 1) and having realistic expectations about what specialties you have a shot at matching ie: int med vs family med when the cycle is ultra competitive. Your story is anecdotal, the program directors you speak of do exist, but there are also many who do take Caribbean students. There is no ONE way, seeing as how there are many programs who do take FMGs.

I agree that podiatry school does offer you a better chance of obtaining residency training.

Both have their pros and cons, and if we are indeed doing a comparison, I think podiatry is the better option of the two, provided that is want you want to do. Caribb can be a great option for talented US grads who don't make the cut for US med schools.

 

[MedMan25]

Your story is anecdotal, the program directors you speak of do exist, but there are also many who do take Caribbean students. There is no ONE way, seeing as how there are many programs who do take FMGs.

I'm not arguing that there are programs that take FMGs nor am I arguing that you can't obtain residency as a foreign grad. But coming from a Caribbean school and getting into a decent residency (or any residency at all) isn't solely dependent on step 1. If you want something a little more concrete than my anecdotal evidence you can take a look at the NRMP program director's survey performed this year ( http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty2010v3.pdf ). You'll see that there are several specialties (family medicine and internal medicine are just two examples) whose program directors as a whole considered coming from a US allopathic school even more important than step 1 score.

Getting into a US residency isn't as "systematic" as you may think. There is a clear preference among program directors for US trained grads as opposed to foreign trained grads and doing well on step 1 as a foreign grad doesn't guarantee that you'll overcome that bias. My point here is that there is an element of chance involved in applying to residency. Coming from a US allopathic school your odds of getting into residency are almost guaranteed. Coming from the Caribbean, however, you're numbered among the minority if you get into residency at all.

 

[krabmas]

I'm not arguing that there are programs that take FMGs nor am I arguing that you can't obtain residency as a foreign grad. But coming from a Caribbean school and getting into a decent residency (or any residency at all) isn't solely dependent on step 1. If you want something a little more concrete than my anecdotal evidence you can take a look at the NRMP program director's survey performed this year ( http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty2010v3.pdf ). You'll see that there are several specialties (family medicine and internal medicine are just two examples) whose program directors as a whole considered coming from a US allopathic school even more important than step 1 score.

Getting into a US residency isn't as "systematic" as you may think. There is a clear preference among program directors for US trained grads as opposed to foreign trained grads and doing well on step 1 as a foreign grad doesn't guarantee that you'll overcome that bias. My point here is that there is an element of chance involved in applying to residency. Coming from a US allopathic school your odds of getting into residency are almost guaranteed. Coming from the Caribbean, however, you're numbered among the minority if you get into residency at all.

there are residency programs that will not take caribbean grads regardless of USMLE score.

 

[Xforward22]

I work extremely hard and am prepared to work even harder once I get to school. I think you looked too deeply into my question and jumped to an inaccurate assumption about my work ethic. I simply was trying to have a conversation about your level of job satisfaction.

I'll make it clear that just b/c I said DPMs "supposedly" have a better quality of life compared to some MDs in surgical specialties, and then proceeded to ask if you are satisfied with your career choice, does not mean I'm getting into podiatry out of laziness.To think so would be insulting to my character.

With that cleared up, I would like to continue this conversation as you are obviously a good source to answer the main question of this forum: "is podiatry the best kept secret in medicine" (not sure how all this talk of carribean med schools became the main topic here). So you mentioned that your busy day you previously described for us was during an on-call day. Certainly not every day is that crazy for you, is it? What's the average day like for you when you are not on call--a typical day in the office seeing patients?

I find your question very interesting, especially the part "are you still happy as a podiatrist even though you work hard?"

Are you expecting to succeed at any profession by not working hard?

Unless I've misread your question, or you simply didn't word it correctly, I would hope that you are going to expect to work hard as a podiatry student, resident and as a practicing doctor.

And I can tell you that when I had part time jobs as a kid, when I had jobs during the summer in high school, college, podiatric medical school, etc., I always "worked hard", because that's my nature. So even if I decided not to be a DPM, I would be working hard at any profession I chose.

I know a lot of very successful DPMs and don't know any of them who obtained success without working hard, but for that matter, I don't know anyone in any business who has achieved success who didn't work hard or who isn't still working hard.

The only exceptions I can think of are people I know who inherited a very successful existing business. But often, when they "slacked off", they ran these businesses into the ground.

And I have no regrets, though plastic surgery would have been a nice choice simply because they receive payment for services directly from the patient without the hassle of insurance companies. Therefore, they receive 100% of their bill. If our practice received 100% of our billings, we'd ALL be retired a very long time ago.

But I'd like you to realize one important fact. Hard work shouldn't be looked upon as a negative. If I wasn't working hard it would indicate my practice wasn't busy, and I'm fortunate to be busy, so I'm happy to be working hard. It's a positive, not a negative.

If you don't want to work hard, I hope you are going to inherit a lot of money or marry well.

 

[PADPM]

I work extremely hard and am prepared to work even harder once I get to school. I think you looked too deeply into my question and jumped to an inaccurate assumption about my work ethic. I simply was trying to have a conversation about your level of job satisfaction.

I'll make it clear that just b/c I said DPMs "supposedly" have a better quality of life compared to some MDs in surgical specialties, and then proceeded to ask if you are satisfied with your career choice, does not mean I'm getting into podiatry out of laziness.To think so would be insulting to my character.

With that cleared up, I would like to continue this conversation as you are obviously a good source to answer the main question of this forum: "is podiatry the best kept secret in medicine" (not sure how all this talk of carribean med schools became the main topic here). So you mentioned that your busy day you previously described for us was during an on-call day. Certainly not every day is that crazy for you, is it? What's the average day like for you when you are not on call--a typical day in the office seeing patients?

It's nice to know that you've "cleared the record", but let's get one fact straight. I do not make "assumptions", so let's get that record cleared. Once again, you are the one that made the statement "are you still happy with podiatry EVEN THOUGH you work hard"?

That's why I responded with my comments about work ethic. I have no idea about your work ethic and it will never effect me, I was simply expressing my opinion of the comment YOU made.

So, maybe it's not that I "assume" anything, but it's the way you express your points that's the problem.

Although my work day when I'm not on call isn't always as crazy, it's certainly not calm. We have a very busy practice and as a result none of the doctors have "open spots" in our schedules, and we are usually over-booked during the day. Naturally, there are always some unexpected emergencies or several doctors will call asking us to see a patient stat, so patients are always "squeezed in", even though there realistically is no place for them in our schedule. And of course, these patients always need to be seen the same day several patients come in late.

I'm the toughest one in our practice regarding patients coming in late. It bothers me a LOT, since I attempt to stay on schedule, but my partners have a more positive approach. They say I get angry when patients are late, and they are HAPPY the patients showed up!! They feel that the bottom line is that any patient that shows up is income that helps the practice. My partners have a better attitude than I do! However, I treat the least amount of "routine" palliative patients and most of my patients require a little more time/care, so when I fall behind it can be more difficult to catch up than if a routine palliative patient comes in late.

But I guess they are right in the long run.

The pace we keep/I keep is certainly not for everyone and can get stressful if not balanced correctly. We have staff that performs a lot of work for us such as taking x-rays, finishing up on routine patients, applying strappings, bandages, casts, removing sutures, bandages, casts, setting up procedures, filling syringes, getting consent forms ready, obtaining lab reports, etc., etc.

You also have to know how to work efficiently. Today while my post operative patient was having an x-ray taken (which only takes a minute or two since we are digital), I ran into another treatment room to check on a patient who had a biopsy last week, since that is a very quick check up. By the time my post op was back in the room, I checked out the biopsy patient, went over the report and re-dressed her wound. The whole day is a balancing act. I spoke with the post op patient and discussed her progress and wanted to print out her digital films on the printer. As that was happening I went into the next room to anesthetize a patient who had an abscess I had to drain. While that was "numbing up", I went to the computer station outside the treatment rooms and charted my notes on the computer for the patient with the biopsy and my post op patient. Then the printed films were done and I returned to the post op patient, showed her the films and where the screw was, etc., and how the bone was healing and answered her questions and re-dressed her foot and sent her on her way. Then on to the abscess and the next zillion patients.

I average 6 patients per hour all day long, and NEVER rush a patient if the patient needs more time. At times it's not enough time and at other times it's too much. It balances itself out and it works for our practice. We wouldn't have such a loyal following if patients didn't feel they were getting good care. In our area they have PLENTY of choices and there are no practices that are even close to our volume.

As I stated, it's not for everyone, and it's not for anyone lazy. It's a hectic pace and it does get tiring and stressful. However, if another partner needs help someone will jump in and help. Today I fell a little behind because some of my partners will often ask for my opinion on difficult cases. Conversely, "wounds" are not my specialty and two of my partners run Wound Care centers and I often consult them during the day.

We often work as a team and it's great having a free second opinion 10 feet away. At the maximum, we have 3 docs in the office at once and it can get crazy. That means some hours there are up to 18-20 patients coming through the waiting room PER HOUR (one partner books up to 8 pts/hour). On these days our office can treat 160-200 or more patients if one doctor is working also working at night.

So, to answer your question, yes, even on my days when I'm not on call, I'm still pretty busy and the days are pretty hectic. It's due to a schedule that's normally busy, plus emergencies and doctors that love to call and ask the famous question "could you do me a favor and squeeze in Mr. Jones?"

When I think of complaining, I realize that it could be the opposite. I could be whining about how I wish my office was busy, etc., etc. So I'll just be happy that I have the opportunity to keep our staff busy and make payroll every week!

 

[Xforward22]

A mutual misunderstanding, but not important. I can see how my question might have caused that reaction.

Wow! I'm wondering how you found time to leave such a detailed message. And I agree with you ... the goal is to have many patients, which would naturally create a busy practice.

Since you have found success, do you mind revealing how you got there? For example, you practice on the east coast, so did you go to Temple or New York? Or did you go somewhere else and find an east coast residency? Or did you just move there after everything was done? Then did you jump straight into that busy practice as a hire-on or did you build it yourself? Did you spend any time working for salary in a hospital to establish yourself before going into private practice?

One last unrelated question. Do you find that majority of the podiatrists in your east coast area went to Temple? I'm having a tough time deciding which school to go to, as I have had offers from everywhere I interviewed. Temple is an option I'm highly considering; any insight into the training there? Do Temple's grads seem to be as competent as Scholls or Des Moines? Thanks.

It's nice to know that you've "cleared the record", but let's get one fact straight. I do not make "assumptions", so let's get that record cleared. Once again, you are the one that made the statement "are you still happy with podiatry EVEN THOUGH you work hard"?

That's why I responded with my comments about work ethic. I have no idea about your work ethic and it will never effect me, I was simply expressing my opinion of the comment YOU made.

So, maybe it's not that I "assume" anything, but it's the way you express your points that's the problem.

Although my work day when I'm not on call isn't always as crazy, it's certainly not calm. We have a very busy practice and as a result none of the doctors have "open spots" in our schedules, and we are usually over-booked during the day. Naturally, there are always some unexpected emergencies or several doctors will call asking us to see a patient stat, so patients are always "squeezed in", even though there realistically is no place for them in our schedule. And of course, these patients always need to be seen the same day several patients come in late.

I'm the toughest one in our practice regarding patients coming in late. It bothers me a LOT, since I attempt to stay on schedule, but my partners have a more positive approach. They say I get angry when patients are late, and they are HAPPY the patients showed up!! They feel that the bottom line is that any patient that shows up is income that helps the practice. My partners have a better attitude than I do! However, I treat the least amount of "routine" palliative patients and most of my patients require a little more time/care, so when I fall behind it can be more difficult to catch up than if a routine palliative patient comes in late.

But I guess they are right in the long run.

The pace we keep/I keep is certainly not for everyone and can get stressful if not balanced correctly. We have staff that performs a lot of work for us such as taking x-rays, finishing up on routine patients, applying strappings, bandages, casts, removing sutures, bandages, casts, setting up procedures, filling syringes, getting consent forms ready, obtaining lab reports, etc., etc.

You also have to know how to work efficiently. Today while my post operative patient was having an x-ray taken (which only takes a minute or two since we are digital), I ran into another treatment room to check on a patient who had a biopsy last week, since that is a very quick check up. By the time my post op was back in the room, I checked out the biopsy patient, went over the report and re-dressed her wound. The whole day is a balancing act. I spoke with the post op patient and discussed her progress and wanted to print out her digital films on the printer. As that was happening I went into the next room to anesthetize a patient who had an abscess I had to drain. While that was "numbing up", I went to the computer station outside the treatment rooms and charted my notes on the computer for the patient with the biopsy and my post op patient. Then the printed films were done and I returned to the post op patient, showed her the films and where the screw was, etc., and how the bone was healing and answered her questions and re-dressed her foot and sent her on her way. Then on to the abscess and the next zillion patients.

I average 6 patients per hour all day long, and NEVER rush a patient if the patient needs more time. At times it's not enough time and at other times it's too much. It balances itself out and it works for our practice. We wouldn't have such a loyal following if patients didn't feel they were getting good care. In our area they have PLENTY of choices and there are no practices that are even close to our volume.

As I stated, it's not for everyone, and it's not for anyone lazy. It's a hectic pace and it does get tiring and stressful. However, if another partner needs help someone will jump in and help. Today I fell a little behind because some of my partners will often ask for my opinion on difficult cases. Conversely, "wounds" are not my specialty and two of my partners run Wound Care centers and I often consult them during the day.

We often work as a team and it's great having a free second opinion 10 feet away. At the maximum, we have 3 docs in the office at once and it can get crazy. That means some hours there are up to 18-20 patients coming through the waiting room PER HOUR (one partner books up to 8 pts/hour). On these days our office can treat 160-200 or more patients if one doctor is working also working at night.

So, to answer your question, yes, even on my days when I'm not on call, I'm still pretty busy and the days are pretty hectic. It's due to a schedule that's normally busy, plus emergencies and doctors that love to call and ask the famous question "could you do me a favor and squeeze in Mr. Jones?"

When I think of complaining, I realize that it could be the opposite. I could be whining about how I wish my office was busy, etc., etc. So I'll just be happy that I have the opportunity to keep our staff busy and make payroll every week!

 

[PADPM]

A mutual misunderstanding, but not important. I can see how my question might have caused that reaction.

Wow! I'm wondering how you found time to leave such a detailed message. And I agree with you ... the goal is to have many patients, which would naturally create a busy practice.

Since you have found success, do you mind revealing how you got there? For example, you practice on the east coast, so did you go to Temple or New York? Or did you go somewhere else and find an east coast residency? Or did you just move there after everything was done? Then did you jump straight into that busy practice as a hire-on or did you build it yourself? Did you spend any time working for salary in a hospital to establish yourself before going into private practice?

One last unrelated question. Do you find that majority of the podiatrists in your east coast area went to Temple? I'm having a tough time deciding which school to go to, as I have had offers from everywhere I interviewed. Temple is an option I'm highly considering; any insight into the training there? Do Temple's grads seem to be as competent as Scholls or Des Moines? Thanks.

I do not discuss any personal details of my background, including exactly where I practice, where I went to school, where I trained, etc., etc. As I've stated many times, my partners are not thrilled with my participation on this site, therefore my anonymity is important.

Before YOU make assumptions, please remember the "East Coast" is a VERY large area.

When I first graduated, I briefly worked for another doctor and it didn't take long for me to decide I wasn't the type that did well with a "boss". Therefore, I worked hard and built up my own practice. After many years I attempted to merge with a group and that was very brief when I discovered some unethical dealings from within, so I opted out in less than one year. In my area, I had an excellent relationship with several of my "competitors". Over the years, two of them merged, then another one merged with them, then another and over many years they kept trying to get me to merge my practice until I finally jumped on board. So our current practice is a culmination of several practices that existed, plus a few doctors we hired.

During that time I was involved with the APMA and as an examiner for the ABPS exam and ran a residency program. I know of NO doctors who are or ever were employed by a hospital other than a VA. As a residency director, the students who impressed me the most on a consistent basis were those from Chicago and Philadelphia, so those are the schools I personally recommend. I know that the Chicago school used to be located right in the "heart" of Chicago, but is now no where close, and I haven't seen the new school. I just know that in my opinion, the students from those schools always seemed to impress me the most.

 

[foot2foot]

I don't know. I wouldn't go that far to say it is the best kept secret because many Pre-med students have considered it, but many have other options.

These include:

1. Doing a post bac and reapplying to MD schools. Post bacs are more and more common these days
2. Apply to a DO school. DO school's are on par with stats needs for POD school, perhaps a bit higher but come on, if you are a serious pre-med, your GPA and mcat are usually in the 3.3-3.6 range with Mcat around 24-29. Otherwise, most students would have stopped the premed track long ago
3. Caribbean Med schools are popping up more and more and the taboo surrounding them have gone away alot.
4. DO and MD are starting to be seen as the same level and degree

The bad about POD:

1. Don't have a chance to choose. You are stuck with feet and ankle
2. the social perception of a POD is still not where it should be
3. A DO or MD def. have more job opportunities.
4. Many people just find feet gross

I guess the biggest thing is respect. One of my friends son didn't get into med school last year. I sugguested POD but he was reluctant because Ortho can do ankle and feet and much more! Also he said an MD or DO does open more doors. This year he got into a DO program so I guess it worked out for him.

Just my 2 cents

Dude think about it. Even with MD/DO you'll be stuck with one specially just like a Podiatric Physician.

 

[benoit75]

That's what i call reviving an old thread!

 

[FluffyKittyLuv93]

It's nice to know that you've "cleared the record", but let's get one fact straight. I do not make "assumptions", so let's get that record cleared. Once again, you are the one that made the statement "are you still happy with podiatry EVEN THOUGH you work hard"?

That's why I responded with my comments about work ethic. I have no idea about your work ethic and it will never effect me, I was simply expressing my opinion of the comment YOU made.

So, maybe it's not that I "assume" anything, but it's the way you express your points that's the problem.

Although my work day when I'm not on call isn't always as crazy, it's certainly not calm. We have a very busy practice and as a result none of the doctors have "open spots" in our schedules, and we are usually over-booked during the day. Naturally, there are always some unexpected emergencies or several doctors will call asking us to see a patient stat, so patients are always "squeezed in", even though there realistically is no place for them in our schedule. And of course, these patients always need to be seen the same day several patients come in late.

I'm the toughest one in our practice regarding patients coming in late. It bothers me a LOT, since I attempt to stay on schedule, but my partners have a more positive approach. They say I get angry when patients are late, and they are HAPPY the patients showed up!! They feel that the bottom line is that any patient that shows up is income that helps the practice. My partners have a better attitude than I do! However, I treat the least amount of "routine" palliative patients and most of my patients require a little more time/care, so when I fall behind it can be more difficult to catch up than if a routine palliative patient comes in late.

But I guess they are right in the long run.

The pace we keep/I keep is certainly not for everyone and can get stressful if not balanced correctly. We have staff that performs a lot of work for us such as taking x-rays, finishing up on routine patients, applying strappings, bandages, casts, removing sutures, bandages, casts, setting up procedures, filling syringes, getting consent forms ready, obtaining lab reports, etc., etc.

You also have to know how to work efficiently. Today while my post operative patient was having an x-ray taken (which only takes a minute or two since we are digital), I ran into another treatment room to check on a patient who had a biopsy last week, since that is a very quick check up. By the time my post op was back in the room, I checked out the biopsy patient, went over the report and re-dressed her wound. The whole day is a balancing act. I spoke with the post op patient and discussed her progress and wanted to print out her digital films on the printer. As that was happening I went into the next room to anesthetize a patient who had an abscess I had to drain. While that was "numbing up", I went to the computer station outside the treatment rooms and charted my notes on the computer for the patient with the biopsy and my post op patient. Then the printed films were done and I returned to the post op patient, showed her the films and where the screw was, etc., and how the bone was healing and answered her questions and re-dressed her foot and sent her on her way. Then on to the abscess and the next zillion patients.

I average 6 patients per hour all day long, and NEVER rush a patient if the patient needs more time. At times it's not enough time and at other times it's too much. It balances itself out and it works for our practice. We wouldn't have such a loyal following if patients didn't feel they were getting good care. In our area they have PLENTY of choices and there are no practices that are even close to our volume.

As I stated, it's not for everyone, and it's not for anyone lazy. It's a hectic pace and it does get tiring and stressful. However, if another partner needs help someone will jump in and help. Today I fell a little behind because some of my partners will often ask for my opinion on difficult cases. Conversely, "wounds" are not my specialty and two of my partners run Wound Care centers and I often consult them during the day.

We often work as a team and it's great having a free second opinion 10 feet away. At the maximum, we have 3 docs in the office at once and it can get crazy. That means some hours there are up to 18-20 patients coming through the waiting room PER HOUR (one partner books up to 8 pts/hour). On these days our office can treat 160-200 or more patients if one doctor is working also working at night.

So, to answer your question, yes, even on my days when I'm not on call, I'm still pretty busy and the days are pretty hectic. It's due to a schedule that's normally busy, plus emergencies and doctors that love to call and ask the famous question "could you do me a favor and squeeze in Mr. Jones?"

When I think of complaining, I realize that it could be the opposite. I could be whining about how I wish my office was busy, etc., etc. So I'll just be happy that I have the opportunity to keep our staff busy and make payroll every week!

What practice do you work at? Or where is it located?

I'm going into podiatry. Would you recommend attending a school in a location that I see myself practicing in the future?
I'm thinking of attending WesternU in Pomona because I do plan in living and practicing in Los Angeles in the future. Do residencies give preference to students who graduated from an in-state school?

Thank you

 

[CapCrunch]

What practice do you work at? Or where is it located?

I'm going into podiatry. Would you recommend attending a school in a location that I see myself practicing in the future?
I'm thinking of attending WesternU in Pomona because I do plan in living and practicing in Los Angeles in the future. Do residencies give preference to students who graduated from an in-state school?

Thank you

He's not on the forums anymore. You'd be better off posting this in the pre-pod or podiatry students sections.

 

[Moose A Moose]

It lives.