What is the deal with podiatry?

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Gold. It is true. Major metro areas like Dallas/Houston....huge hospitals...they have no need for their own employed podiatrists due to a combination of Ortho wanting it/not wanting podiatry (not being desired) but also have an unlimited supply of local pods who will take free call on insured patients to do the stuff they don't want (oversaturated). It is beyond crazy.

I have developed podiatry programs at multiple rural hospitals and we make a huge difference....but in the big picture they were doing ok before us. I have contacted many many hospitals since without podiatry and they have no interest in having their own....baffling sometimes but just like you can't convince the head cheerleader you will make a great loyal boyfriend you can't convince the CEO of your value to the community and hospital.
Amen.
Selling podiatry was a lot easier four pod schools ago and when only a small fraction of residencies were legit surgical.
It was never easy to call MSGs and hospitals, but it was reasonably possible. I have done it a few times intentionally, a couple on accident (just being successful in PP nearby to a MSG or taking my cases to a hospital... and they offered to hire me).

Not a lot of careers where you get to go 300k-400k+ into debt, graduate near the top of the class, get good training, and still need to sell yourself to facilities by cold calling to create a job... or carve out space in a saturated PP market. That is not to mention that even many hospitals who may hire a DPM or expand to bring one in won't pay much or truly support the DPM. Last, the CEO or hospital managers or system priorities or funding could change... so, there's that.

I think that's almost what DPM fellowships have become also: just a title to help in the create-a-job hunt. They were initially a way to get some unique cases with elite attendings... but now, they're just a way to sliiightly increase chances of impressing a facility, to buy time to look for jobs during a 4th year of residency, or to try getting a job with the fellowship 'sponsor' group by giving them a cheap labor intern year.

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Is it difficult to find these VA jobs? The DPM at our VA is awesome and seems to have a good lifestyle. I just never thought VA jobs would be so coveted until I read posts here.
 
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Is it difficult to find these VA jobs? The DPM at our VA is awesome and seems to have a good lifestyle. I just never thought VA jobs would be so coveted until I read posts here.
It's very very difficult to get a VA DPM job. They prioritize veterans and older podiatrists but at the end of the day the majority of job postings are for legality purposes. They very often already have an applicant in mind when they post but have to post before hiring. And last I heard, the average VA job was getting over 100 applicants for each spot.
 
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You guys are talking about this job though like it's easy to get and easy work.
It's not.
I could compare myself to the president of the biggest healthcare corp in my state, he only has a bachelor's degree and he makes 2 million a year, more than any employed doctor in the country.
You can always compare like this and it's just silly. Go be a Buc-ee's manager then if it's that great and easy.
I agree with you, I think it’s silly to compare jobs and salaries. No one will ever know what it’s truly like to do the job but you can make the most educated opinion you can, and if despite hearing all the noise you feel like you can still go into this with no regret, then why not?
 
Is it difficult to find these VA jobs? The DPM at our VA is awesome and seems to have a good lifestyle. I just never thought VA jobs would be so coveted until I read posts here.
Let's put it this way: some podiatrists actually do residency at a VA program (they are all average at best) by design... to have an inside track on a VA podiatrist job afterwards. No joke. I know multiple. It "works" for some; their VA director or network knows another VA pod who finds them a VA job out of training or soon after. This is the state of podiatry: we some undertake a $400k debt degree to pull tricks to get a $200k govt job. Many pods have been applying at VA jobs for years. It's wild.

Now, just imagine any of that ever happening in MD/DO world...
  • Doing a below average residency to try to create job/connections (why? good jobs are plentiful)...
  • Having residencies sponsored by crummy VA hospitals without teaching attendings research or good mix of patients and pathology (MDs and DOs don't have residencies VA-sponsored... some residencies might just do a couple months at nearby VA as rotations)...
  • Gunning for VA jobs and applying for years to them (MDs and DOs generally view them as a last resort due to low pay).

If the state of VA podiatry job demand and application numbers - relative to MD/DO jobs at VA hospitals - doesn't give testament to the podiatry job face-plant and the saturation, I don't know what does. The fact that another group's trash is our treasure tells you all you need to know. :(

Good and accurate info above from @Forcewielder also.
VA podiatry jobs used to be uncommon but low paid. Now, they are avg/low paid with the parity ~2017 for podiatrist being in lowest MD pay group (low paid MD = good pay to DPMs), and that has drastically increased podiatry VA job demand (and supply... but even moreso demand). You have to remember that $200k for a podiatrist, particularly a young one, is definitely an above median job offer. Many decent-paying podiatry jobs are also rural or burnout. A job for VA podiatrist is that $200k... and benefits.... low risk of burnout... and in a fairly good-size city.
 
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Another VA consideration for young pods with high debt is that a VA qualifies for PSLF and if you do a VA residency you're already 3 years into the 10 needed for forgiveness. Even if you don't do the full 10, they do student loan assistance where they pay off an agreed upon amount towards your loans each 12 month period you remain with the VA. If you had 400k in loans that's a very appealing benefit. That's in addition to the Cadillac of all benefit packages- insurance, pension, and 401k match.

All that said, the VA provides a pretty low job satisfaction as a provider. The VA breeds an attitude of complacency and punching the clock with its employees, so it would be hard to ever go from the VA back to private sector.
 
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Another VA consideration for young pods with high debt is that a VA qualifies for PSLF and if you do a VA residency you're already 3 years into the 10 needed for forgiveness. ...
Yes, 100%.^^

For MDs, the general advice on WCI or SDN or wherever is that the PSLF jobs are generally a waste as most (esp govt VA/IHS) make so much less than the grad would working in private sector hospital/practice and just paying the loans in a few years. They do have a lot of non-govt jobs at not-for-profit hospitals that pay decent and qualify for PSLF and are in good areas. Those are still common and fairly middle-of-the-road MD jobs which are not hard in most areas.

For podiatry, it's a VERY attractive option to try for PSLF, and that means VA/IHS typically. It is all relative to what other job paths pay and what else is available. In podiatry, the non-govt jobs at not-for-profit hospitals in a decent city that qualify for PSLF are very rare and basically the holy grail (of employed jobs).

The MD/DO and DPM outlooks on jobs in terms of pay and desirability are just night and day. It's amazing.
 
I'm screwed
Hey, would you rather find out during undergrad or 7 or 8 years later?

Best thing to do is to not do podiatry it’s that simple. Study for the MCAT harder and go to MD/DO or maybe nursing school or PA school
Yep.

RN is still the fastest and best ROI, bajillions of job options and travel options and overtime pay options. That would 100% be my pick if 18yo or 21yo or whatever again. Many places have accelerated nursing program if you already have a bachelor degree with some science classes (science, engineer, exercise sci, etc).

The invisible enemy is just to get past the pre-med bravado, swallow one's ego, and realize that it's about lifestyle and $... all of the above are jobs that give you challenge and ability to help people and income. And PS, you sure don't have to be a doctor (or foot doctor) to do well in dating... so toss that reasoning out too. Go where you will be treated best and have options in terms of employers, schedule, ROI, early retirement, less stress.
 
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Hey, would you rather find out during undergrad or 7 or 8 years later?


Yep.

RN is still the fastest and best ROI, bajillions of job options and travel options and overtime pay options. That would 100% be my pick if 18yo or 21yo or whatever again. Many places have accelerated nursing program if you already have a bachelor degree with some science classes (science, engineer, exercise sci, etc).

The invisible enemy is just to get past the pre-med bravado, swallow one's ego, and realize that it's about lifestyle and $... all of the above are jobs that give you challenge and ability to help people and income. And PS, you sure don't have to be a doctor (or foot doctor) to do well in dating... so toss that reasoning out too. Go where you will be treated best and have options in terms of employers, schedule, ROI, early retirement, less stress.
I don't want employers that can fire me on a whim.
I'm ready to just become a monk at this point, I'm disillusioned with everything.
 
Besides NP/PA, I would consider Anesthesiology Assistant as well. Great ROI
 
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Besides NP/PA, I would consider Anesthesiology Assistant as well. Great ROI
True you are just very limited in what states you can live in as an AA.

At the end of the day podiatry school is easy to get into, but the job market is nothing like that of MDs/DOs…..not even remotely close. Podiatry is not the best kept secret in medicine. It can work out great for some, but there is definitely a reason the admissions are less competitive.
 
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I still think the ROI on podiatry can be decent. Most will come out with 300-400k of debt but a salary of 100-150k first year is most likely. If you're able to live another 5-10 years very cheaply as an attending, holding off on new cars, vacations, nice homes etc, you should be able to pay off the student loans and then that's when a 150k a year will really give you freedom to enjoy life. You have to remember the average college grad salary for someone in a STEM field is 70k and we come out double that salary so we're doing pretty well.
 
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I still think the ROI on podiatry can be decent. Most will come out with 300-400k of debt but a salary of 100-150k first year is most likely. If you're able to live another 5-10 years very cheaply as an attending, holding off on new cars, vacations, nice homes etc, you should be able to pay off the student loans and then that's when a 150k a year will really give you freedom to enjoy life. You have to remember the average college grad salary for someone in a STEM field is 70k and we come out double that salary so we're doing pretty well.
You do realize the annual interest in tody's rates on $400k student debt is around $30k?
Taxes 30% fed + state on $150k will be at least $45k.

That $150k gross just turned into $75k net...
So, you can live on that (particularly if single), but how is that enough "to enjoy life"? It is not, eespecially if you over-pay loans to actually chip into principal to any meaningful degree.

$150k with that big debt is not enough to live any lifestyle above middle class - particularly if you try to support a minimial/no earner spouse and kids, which many DPMs do. You won't be "holding off" on nice things; you will never get to those things - unless you can improve income. Last, a not insignificant amount of DPMs make under $150k... so, there's that.

The goal is to live frugal for anyone in debt, but it's mainly critical to get to get out of the associate mills and low income... and up to the higher DPM income levels (owner, partner, high paid employee)... but that's just not the majority of DPMs.
 
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I still think the ROI on podiatry can be decent. Most will come out with 300-400k of debt but a salary of 100-150k first year is most likely. If you're able to live another 5-10 years very cheaply as an attending, holding off on new cars, vacations, nice homes etc, you should be able to pay off the student loans and then that's when a 150k a year will really give you freedom to enjoy life. You have to remember the average college grad salary for someone in a STEM field is 70k and we come out double that salary so we're doing pretty well.
What?

If you are able to live for 10 years as cheaply as you can?
150k a year will not give you any freedom to enjoy life.
Average College grad salary is 70k, you are adding an extra 7 years of education on top of that?

This is madness.
 
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I still think the ROI on podiatry can be decent. Most will come out with 300-400k of debt but a salary of 100-150k first year is most likely. If you're able to live another 5-10 years very cheaply as an attending, holding off on new cars, vacations, nice homes etc, you should be able to pay off the student loans and then that's when a 150k a year will really give you freedom to enjoy life. You have to remember the average college grad salary for someone in a STEM field is 70k and we come out double that salary so we're doing pretty well.
I used to believe that until reality hit me in the face. I had just over 200k in loans with the highest at 5.9%. If I did a standard 10yr repayment that would be 2700/month. Consider that at 125k salary (midpoint you gave) you have 10k/month gross. Take out 30% for taxes and you have ~7k/month. So over a third of your take home will be going to your student loans for 10 years. Want to accelerate it to 5 years? It would be well over half your take home pay and you'll be living off what you could make at McDonalds until you turn 35. Interest is a biotch.

Consider many grads have 300-400k now and they're going to be forced into one of those IBR plans and pay for 25 years whatever the government deems. It really is insane.
 
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I used to believe that until reality hit me in the face. I had just over 200k in loans with the highest at 5.9%. If I did a standard 10yr repayment that would be 2700/month. Consider that at 125k salary (midpoint you gave) you have 10k/month gross. Take out 30% for taxes and you have ~7k/month. So over a third of your take home will be going to your student loans for 10 years. Want to accelerate it to 5 years? It would be well over half your take home pay and you'll be living off what you could make at McDonalds until you turn 35. Interest is a biotch.

Consider many grads have 300-400k now and they're going to be forced into one of those IBR plans and pay for 25 years whatever the government deems. It really is insane.
Yep. Add in most grads want to buy a house. Hopefully your crappy PP job will offer partnership at 3 years, how much will that cost? Great news, the surgery center wants you to buy a share too. Better hope your wife doesn't want to stay at home with the kids. Vacation? How is that pre-podiatry, 12 year old car holding up?

Meanwhile my good buddy and his wife who are hospitalists, just hired a live in Nanny...
 
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You do realize the annual interest in tody's rates on $400k student debt is around $30k?
Taxes 30% fed + state on $150k will be at least $45k.

That $150k gross just turned into $75k net...
So, you can live on that (particularly if single), but how is that enough "to enjoy life"? It is not, eespecially if you over-pay loans to actually chip into principal to any meaningful degree.

$150k with that big debt is not enough to live any lifestyle above middle class - particularly if you try to support a minimial/no earner spouse and kids, which many DPMs do. You won't be "holding off" on nice things; you will never get to those things - unless you can improve income. Last, a not insignificant amount of DPMs make under $150k... so, there's that.

The goal is to live frugal for anyone in debt, but it's mainly critical to get to get out of the associate mills and low income... and up to the higher DPM income levels (owner, partner, high paid employee)... but that's just not the majority of DPMs.
I'm sure it's been done before but I'd think a finance thread should be front and center on SDN. I'm pretty financially savvy and read white coat investor blog regularly and even I was totally delusional when it came to the financial life of podiatry. When the average American household brings in 70k now, when you can make $20/hr off the street at McDonalds or 55k as an entry level admin assistant with a bachelors at any basic office job, it is just insane to think associate jobs offer 120k for a job that will likely require 60+ hrs/wk and 300k+ in student loans. My elevator pitch to prospective students usually equates how crumby the housing market is right now and just imagine if you were forced to buy 2 houses at the same time and never live in the other because my student loan payment is the same as a mortgage.

As you mentioned above, I regularly advise going into nursing and tell them they can always parlay that into NP, CRNA, etc and will always have a great job market. The other benefit is the ability to change what you do. As sure as anyone is they love working on feet as a prospective student, the reality may change but there is no avenue for doing anything else for podiatrists. Any MD/DO or nurse can pivot at any point. There are general surgeons doing hip replacement or Whipples in some rural settings. Meanwhile I can't trim fingernails legally haha
 
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I think you need to come into podiatry with the expectation you're going to live a middle class life which is fine. It's middle, it is expected. No you're not buying nice cars or homes or vacations but your bills are going to be paid, you're not going to have a lot of stress. It's really not terrible, could it be worse. We're doing better than the vast majority of people with only a college degree, we're bottom of the totem pole for advanced/doctorate level degrees but someone has to be the bottom and we all knew it would be us before we started this journey.
 
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I think you need to come into podiatry with the expectation you're going to live a middle class life which is fine. It's middle, it is expected. No you're not buying nice cars or homes or vacations but your bills are going to be paid, you're not going to have a lot of stress. It's really not terrible, could it be worse. We're doing better than the vast majority of people with only a college degree, we're bottom of the totem pole for advanced/doctorate level degrees but someone has to be the bottom and we all knew it would be us before we started this journey.
Speak for yourself
 
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I used to believe that until reality hit me in the face. I had just over 200k in loans with the highest at 5.9%. If I did a standard 10yr repayment that would be 2700/month. Consider that at 125k salary (midpoint you gave) you have 10k/month gross. Take out 30% for taxes and you have ~7k/month. So over a third of your take home will be going to your student loans for 10 years. ...
Yeah, for sure.
I am working on the SDN classification of Podiatry woes (need to submit to PM News for "publication"?):

Phase 1, bliss: this always begins at podiatry school acceptance and lasts through podiatry school and into podiatry residency... and maybe the first year or two out. There are few or no money worries... and plenty of time to figure it all out. Even as the loan balance climbs or they matched a junk residency, things can still improve... and loans have a grace period, right? They always figure 'it won't happen to me' or that income will begin to increase anytime soon (find a better job, hit associate bonus, defer loans or live higher standard off credit awhile, whatever).

Phase 2A, rage: starts whenever that wtf realization hits (ranges from pgy3 job search or first few years of associate work until whenever): things are not going to turn out how you planned - aka like most MDs. They grapple with the pain of knowing podiatry good jobs are very rare, changing jobs is hard, and the money is tight for most. Serious consideration to nursing homes on the weekend, moving far rural for a decent job, wound wizard grafts or other scam du jour to hit bonus, and other stuff they never thought they'd consider is now being pondered.

Phase 2B, insight: They stay at lower pay employed jobs to make ends meet, but they eventually get over their reality not meeting original expectations. They largely let it goooo and accept not getting very good income, having many job options, living well or in target area, give up doing frequent surgery or prestige job, whatever. They get no callbacks on hospital jobs and basically give up.
Standard of living is adjusted and house/car/etc downsized accordingly, and they make a realistic budget. Student loans probably have to be done with minimum pays for 25 years or whatever... or they can live very low standard and try to pay them off sooner. Others may take the "eff-it" approach and keep piling debt to maintain higher standard of living... to the point of bankrupt and/or having basically no retirement plan whatsoever.

Phase 3, ascension: Some people make it to mythical phase 3 where they do get a high pay podiatry job or start their own office. Most do pay off their loans and gain the associated earning power. Phase 3 is the small minority of DPMs. :(
 
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Phase 4, enlightenment: You realize nothing matters in life, and in doing so, become a Podiatry SDN moderator.
 
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I think you need to come into podiatry with the expectation you're going to live a middle class life which is fine. It's middle, it is expected. No you're not buying nice cars or homes or vacations but your bills are going to be paid, you're not going to have a lot of stress. It's really not terrible, could it be worse. We're doing better than the vast majority of people with only a college degree, we're bottom of the totem pole for advanced/doctorate level degrees but someone has to be the bottom and we all knew it would be us before we started this journey.
Yes and no. Most will end up that way, but I'm not one to accept the status quo. The majority don't/won't crush it. If you're willing to live where others won't, do what others won't, and/or search continually for the next level up then you can live the "doctor life". I am fortunate enough to say I earn like my MD peers, but it's not without some personal sacrifice (but hey it's a doctor's life)
 
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Podiatry is bipolar. It always has been and it always will be. Some are earning a "doctor's" salary and some are not.

What is not bipolar is our cost and length of training. That is "doctor" like for everyone.

Want a doctor's salary? Don't work for another podiatrist. Where are most open jobs in this profession? Working for another podiatrist.
 
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I think you need to come into podiatry with the expectation you're going to live a middle class life which is fine. It's middle, it is expected. No you're not buying nice cars or homes or vacations but your bills are going to be paid, you're not going to have a lot of stress. It's really not terrible, could it be worse. We're doing better than the vast majority of people with only a college degree, we're bottom of the totem pole for advanced/doctorate level degrees but someone has to be the bottom and we all knew it would be us before we started this journey.
You’re sounding a lil I’m so thankful for podiatry and it’s garbage it dishes out. But I thought by reading your previous post you objected to how podiatry is… maybe I’m wrong and confusing you with someone else… if I am my bad I can’t remember… and I also didn’t know how bottom of the totem pole podiatry was before starting this journey… so speak for yourself…if I knew I never would have started the journey.
 
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Yeah, for sure.
I am working on the SDN classification of Podiatry woes (need to submit to PM News for "publication"?):

Phase 1, bliss: this always begins at podiatry school acceptance and lasts through podiatry school and into podiatry residency... and maybe the first year or two out. There are few or no money worries... and plenty of time to figure it all out. Even as the loan balance climbs or they matched a junk residency, things can still improve... and loans have a grace period, right? They always figure 'it won't happen to me' or that income will begin to increase anytime soon (find a better job, hit associate bonus, defer loans or live higher standard off credit awhile, whatever).

Phase 2A, rage: starts whenever that wtf realization hits (ranges from pgy3 job search or first few years of associate work until whenever): things are not going to turn out how you planned - aka like most MDs. They grapple with the pain of knowing podiatry good jobs are very rare, changing jobs is hard, and the money is tight for most. Serious consideration to nursing homes on the weekend, moving far rural for a decent job, wound wizard grafts or other scam du jour to hit bonus, and other stuff they never thought they'd consider is now being pondered.

Phase 2B, insight: They stay at lower pay employed jobs to make ends meet, but they eventually get over their reality not meeting original expectations. They largely let it goooo and accept not getting very good income, having many job options, living well or in target area, give up doing frequent surgery or prestige job, whatever. They get no callbacks on hospital jobs and basically give up.
Standard of living is adjusted and house/car/etc downsized accordingly, and they make a realistic budget. Student loans probably have to be done with minimum pays for 25 years or whatever... or they can live very low standard and try to pay them off sooner. Others may take the "eff-it" approach and keep piling debt to maintain higher standard of living... to the point of bankrupt and/or having basically no retirement plan whatsoever.

Phase 3, ascension: Some people make it to mythical phase 3 where they do get a high pay podiatry job or start their own office. Most do pay off their loans and gain the associated earning power. Phase 3 is the small minority of DPMs. :(
I’m in phase one as a student but the bliss has worn off now, well before graduation. Hit me like a ton of bricks but I would rather know now than find out later. I’m exiting stage left lol. Thanks to all of you who post here.
 
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Some disturbing misinformation about the VA in this topic. Not going to change any old minds but I suggest anyone who is interested in working for the DVA in any capacity do more research into recent streamlining in the hiring process and recent job satisfaction studies.

The "old boy network" regarding hiring, for any position, is not only untrue it's illegal. Yes takes a long time in the grand scheme of things to get on board and it is true that certain candidates get preference(veterans, current\displaced employees etc)but the process is very transparent. Certainly more transparent versus certain other big organizations.

The issue of complacency in providers is also untrue and insulting. Would a vast system of complacent providers just waiting for retirement result in patient satisfaction that is markedly better than the private sector? Anyone who has worn a uniform will tell you that a veteran has ZERO trouble speaking truth to power. If they were unhappy with their care, they'd tell anyone who asked and everyone who didn't.....including their congressman.


The VA as an institution may not be perfect but if they have become good at one thing in the recent years it's policing themselves. The OIG reports are public: both good and bad. The VA of today is not the VA of even a decade ago.
 
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Some disturbing misinformation about the VA in this topic. Not going to change any old minds but I suggest anyone who is interested in working for the DVA in any capacity do more research into recent streamlining in the hiring process and recent job satisfaction studies.

The "old boy network" regarding hiring, for any position, is not only untrue it's illegal. Yes takes a long time in the grand scheme of things to get on board and it is true that certain candidates get preference(veterans, current\displaced employees etc)but the process is very transparent. Certainly more transparent versus certain other big organizations.

The issue of complacency in providers is also untrue and insulting. Would a vast system of complacent providers just waiting for retirement result in patient satisfaction that is markedly better than the private sector? Anyone who has worn a uniform will tell you that a veteran has ZERO trouble speaking truth to power. If they were unhappy with their care, they'd tell anyone who asked and everyone who didn't.....including their congressman.


The VA as an institution may not be perfect but if they have become good at one thing in the recent years it's policing themselves. The OIG reports are public: both good and bad. The VA of today is not the VA of even a decade ago.
In before @Feli says "you know the saying 'once you have seen one VA, you have seen one VA.'"
 
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Some disturbing misinformation about the VA in this topic. Not going to change any old minds but I suggest anyone who is interested in working for the DVA in any capacity do more research into recent streamlining in the hiring process and recent job satisfaction studies.

The "old boy network" regarding hiring, for any position, is not only untrue it's illegal. Yes takes a long time in the grand scheme of things to get on board and it is true that certain candidates get preference(veterans, current\displaced employees etc)but the process is very transparent. Certainly more transparent versus certain other big organizations.

The issue of complacency in providers is also untrue and insulting. Would a vast system of complacent providers just waiting for retirement result in patient satisfaction that is markedly better than the private sector? Anyone who has worn a uniform will tell you that a veteran has ZERO trouble speaking truth to power. If they were unhappy with their care, they'd tell anyone who asked and everyone who didn't.....including their congressman.


The VA as an institution may not be perfect but if they have become good at one thing in the recent years it's policing themselves. The OIG reports are public: both good and bad. The VA of today is not the VA of even a decade ago.
Lol, are you referring to a certain post that you meant to quote... or just swinging wildly in the dark here?

There is a thread on podiatrist VA jobs if you wanted to contribute there??

It is true that VAs generally move slow, OR time is hard and inefficient. Hiring is slow.
That was the case at all I've VA pod setups been to - and for the many people I know who work VA pod jobs.
When I did govt work, I was often told to slow down and met with resistance for any add-on or late clinic/cases.
Many admin and HR staff and medical office ppl take even more vaca than docs, so things are just not fast. Each one varies.
Admit it or not, there is an inherent culture of loafing in govt work. Not every single person... but overall. Fact.
Clinic volumes at VA (pts per day, week, month, etc) would generally get one fired or no/low bonus in any private office or hospital setup.

They are reasonably attractive jobs for DPMs since the pay got bumped, and that's great. This is great; the pod job market overall is needing any and all decent gigs. The VA pod openings are low end DPM hospital jobs in terms of pay, but that is desired as DPM jobs for PSLF and DPM hospital jobs in general are scarce. For MD/DOs, VA is still very unattractive with many many many better pay options for them. A fair amount of the MDs I worked with in govt had various boards or personal or whatever issues where they would have few job options in the private sector. None of that is untrue.

If you like it, that's cool. Good for you. Carry on.
However, you can't cite "patient satisfaction" in places like VA or Kaiser or other bubble setups where the patient pools have little or no choice. Sorry. The patients are stuck there.

PS, if you've seen one VA, you've seen one VA.
 
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Lol, are you referring to a certain post that you meant to quote... or just swinging wildly in the dark here?
Referring to the comments made about the VA earlier in the thread.

To the rest of what you said: uh huh.

In before @Feli says "you know the saying 'once you have seen one VA, you have seen one VA.'"

Haha, no I've heard that saying too. A lot has changed and will continue to change. The government is the government and they will never miss an opportunity to fall over themselves(look at the Veterans Truce Choice Act from this year) but overall the trend is upward and meaningful.
 
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Some disturbing misinformation about the VA in this topic. Not going to change any old minds but I suggest anyone who is interested in working for the DVA in any capacity do more research into recent streamlining in the hiring process and recent job satisfaction studies.

The "old boy network" regarding hiring, for any position, is not only untrue it's illegal. Yes takes a long time in the grand scheme of things to get on board and it is true that certain candidates get preference(veterans, current\displaced employees etc)but the process is very transparent. Certainly more transparent versus certain other big organizations.

The issue of complacency in providers is also untrue and insulting. Would a vast system of complacent providers just waiting for retirement result in patient satisfaction that is markedly better than the private sector? Anyone who has worn a uniform will tell you that a veteran has ZERO trouble speaking truth to power. If they were unhappy with their care, they'd tell anyone who asked and everyone who didn't.....including their congressman.


The VA as an institution may not be perfect but if they have become good at one thing in the recent years it's policing themselves. The OIG reports are public: both good and bad. The VA of today is not the VA of even a decade ago.
Not misinformation at all. Anecdotal at times. I externed at 4 VAs, was a resident at another, and see a lot of VA Choice patients currently. Every VA is different, but I don't disagree with much that's been said here. Glad you're happy with your VAMC. I was with mine.
Lol, are you referring to a certain post that you meant to quote... or just swinging wildly in the dark here?

There is a thread on podiatrist VA jobs if you wanted to contribute there??

It is true that VAs generally move slow, OR time is hard and inefficient. Hiring is slow.
That was the case at all I've VA pod setups been to - and for the many people I know who work VA pod jobs.
When I did govt work, I was often told to slow down and met with resistance for any add-on or late clinic/cases.
Many admin and HR staff and medical office ppl take even more vaca than docs, so things are just not fast. Each one varies.
Admit it or not, there is an inherent culture of loafing in govt work. Not every single person... but overall. Fact.
Clinic volumes at VA (pts per day, week, month, etc) would generally get one fired or no/low bonus in any private office or hospital setup.

They are reasonably attractive jobs for DPMs since the pay got bumped, and that's great. This is great; the pod job market overall is needing any and all decent gigs. The VA pod openings are low end DPM hospital jobs in terms of pay, but that is desired as DPM jobs for PSLF and DPM hospital jobs in general are scarce. For MD/DOs, VA is still very unattractive with many many many better pay options for them. A fair amount of the MDs I worked with in govt had various boards or personal or whatever issues where they would have few job options in the private sector. None of that is untrue.

If you like it, that's cool. Good for you. Carry on.
However, you can't cite "patient satisfaction" in places like VA or Kaiser or other bubble setups where the patient pools have little or no choice. Sorry. The patients are stuck there.

PS, if you've seen one VA, you've seen one VA.
Couldn't agree more.

I'd just add I have spent significant time in 4 VAs and they're all very unique, but some things tend to be the same. As you mentioned, there's never going to be the same systemic level of motivation compared to the private sector. Like nearly any job sector, if you have a motivated person and offer them a job where they can be paid by the task or paid by the hour, they'll take the higher upside, higher risk task-oriented job. The less motivated person will gravitate towards the hourly position.
 
Some disturbing misinformation about the VA in this topic. Not going to change any old minds but I suggest anyone who is interested in working for the DVA in any capacity do more research into recent streamlining in the hiring process and recent job satisfaction studies.

The "old boy network" regarding hiring, for any position, is not only untrue it's illegal. Yes takes a long time in the grand scheme of things to get on board and it is true that certain candidates get preference(veterans, current\displaced employees etc)but the process is very transparent. Certainly more transparent versus certain other big organizations.
I know of one VA that hires non-VA docs without even posting the positions. "Illegal" (?) like you say... but guess what? Still happens.
 
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I know of one VA that hires non-VA docs without even posting the positions. "Illegal" (?) like you say... but guess what? Still happens.

The federal government can use direct hiring authority to fill a position but it still A)requires public notice(I think certain DoD jobs are exempt, hiring for presidential EO etc), B) must follow displaced employee requirements and C)meet a pretty substantially high bar of need to be approved.

VRA allows for direct hiring of veterans without any public notice(i.e. noncompetitive hiring). If the public feels that is unfair, then I suggest enlisting. If you are saying that you know of VA jobs being filled without any job listing having been made public by non-fed employees or veterans, I would respectfully say you don't have all the information.

The illegal aspect I mentioned was in regard to posting open to the public\competitive listings while having their candidate in their back pocket. i.e. posting a perfunctory listing. There are far too many checks in place for that to be commonplace these days. Title 5 allows for the hire themselves to not be paid if and when something like this is uncovered. Why take the risk? Especially for professionals. Take a position gained via nepotism and then face having to payback salary among other repercussion? Seems a pretty stupid risk to me for all involved. Note that I am not discounting the power of networking: name recognition is not the same as nepotism however. Maybe it feels that way in a smaller speciality like podiatry?

There was a case out of CT(I think...) recently. If I can find it, I'll post it. It shows that the VA really does take this seriously....to speak nothing of the union(non doc jobs). If I recall correctly one of the hires in trouble was a Senators something or other...

Getting onboard with the VA is a long process. Longer than it should be. There is a TON of work to do there to get the best people in position. That said you'd be surprised how many people put their hat in the ring then stop participating in the process...then turn around and cry when the job is filled. I'm sure it may seem they were never truly in the running but that's not the case. They just didn't measure up to the competition. I am sure that is a bitter pill for professionals with a ton of education debt crushing them to swallow. That is a problem but it's not the VA's fault.


I'll also say this: it's pretty easy to see how long open jobs have been available\how often. Not getting the job in the geographical area you want in the timeframe that works best for you does not equal being shut out of the whole system. From my research reading all these topics here it seems that is the rationality for the majority of negativity surrounding podiatry jobs in all sectors.

I like the avatar....
 
The federal government can use direct hiring authority to fill a position but it still A)requires public notice(I think certain DoD jobs are exempt, hiring for presidential EO etc), B) must follow displaced employee requirements and C)meet a pretty substantially high bar of need to be approved.

VRA allows for direct hiring of veterans without any public notice(i.e. noncompetitive hiring). If the public feels that is unfair, then I suggest enlisting. If you are saying that you know of VA jobs being filled without any job listing having been made public by non-fed employees or veterans, I would respectfully say you don't have all the information.

The illegal aspect I mentioned was in regard to posting open to the public\competitive listings while having their candidate in their back pocket. i.e. posting a perfunctory listing. There are far too many checks in place for that to be commonplace these days. Title 5 allows for the hire themselves to not be paid if and when something like this is uncovered. Why take the risk? Especially for professionals. Take a position gained via nepotism and then face having to payback salary among other repercussion? Seems a pretty stupid risk to me for all involved. Note that I am not discounting the power of networking: name recognition is not the same as nepotism however. Maybe it feels that way in a smaller speciality like podiatry?

There was a case out of CT(I think...) recently. If I can find it, I'll post it. It shows that the VA really does take this seriously....to speak nothing of the union(non doc jobs). If I recall correctly one of the hires in trouble was a Senators something or other...

Getting onboard with the VA is a long process. Longer than it should be. There is a TON of work to do there to get the best people in position. That said you'd be surprised how many people put their hat in the ring then stop participating in the process...then turn around and cry when the job is filled. I'm sure it may seem they were never truly in the running but that's not the case. They just didn't measure up to the competition. I am sure that is a bitter pill for professionals with a ton of education debt crushing them to swallow. That is a problem but it's not the VA's fault.


I'll also say this: it's pretty easy to see how long open jobs have been available\how often. Not getting the job in the geographical area you want in the timeframe that works best for you does not equal being shut out of the whole system. From my research reading all these topics here it seems that is the rationality for the majority of negativity surrounding podiatry jobs in all sectors.

I like the avatar....
Good post.

Yipcha!!!
 
If you don't land a hospital job with MGMA median salary, benefits, and work production bonuses then podiatry is terrible. Period. The End. In private practice you won't be treating pathology you were trained to treat. In private practice you won't be getting paid your WORTH.

Working private practice podiatry as an associate is probably the worst thing possible. So many professional pathways will lead to a higher starting salary than a private practice associate job. Nurses, PAs, NPs, teachers, mail men/women, the UPS driver, Fast food managers, etc all make more money than MOST private practice associate jobs. Any skilled trade jobs will make more than a private practice associate job.

If you end up working as an associate in private practice podiatry I promise you will not be happy or at the very least be somewhat dissatisfied. YET the majority of the jobs in podiatry are private practice associate jobs. This is a high risk profession. The ROI is great for the small minority (private practice owners and hospital employed docs) and poor for the majority (everyone else).

It is not worth it. Learn how to trade stocks or do something else with your time. I would encourage you to be a plumber than a podiatrist. Society needs plumbers.

If you can't land a hospital gig then you are better off starting your own private practice which takes money, lots of time, and your practice location is critical to success. Do not open a private practice in a city or a densely populated suburb as you will already be competing with an abundance of podiatrists. Go rural or find some of the least desirable places to live and open up shop.

I posted a job in Maine. Maine....

I promise you this hospital employed job in MAINE will be bombarded with 100-200 applications in the next few days.
 
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I recently talked to a peer that took an associate job I had considered. It was a big podiatry practice with multiple highly skilled partners and multiple sites. The offer when I interviewed was 150k base with a 1% kicker and benefits. There was also talk of an opportunuty of buying into a surgery center, but no path to partner. Their partner path was 5yrs working at 90k before finally getting full partner status and profit sharing. Honestly those numbers all sounded good to me at the time.

Turns out the job entailed 3 weeks of call per month and covering the partners clinics whenever they were on vacation. The job is literally the life of a 1st year resident in perpetuity or 5yrs of that life with essentially paying 500k of buy-in in withheld earnings. These are just awful options and somehow that's considered a very competitive offer in the podiatry world. Can you imagine an MD/DO entertaining those offers? You can make 150k easily as a travel nurse and still have more of a life and no student loans.
 
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... It is not worth it. Learn how to trade stocks or do something else with your time. I would encourage you to be a plumber than a podiatrist. ...
In the end, it doesn't matter what one does. It's all about ROI.

To trade stocks or start a biz or buy RE or make $ however, you need to have money (or at least credit).
It is said 100 times over that "the first million by far is the hardest ... the second is inevitable."

The common formula for being wealthy, out of (bad) debt, and financially independent is:
  1. Getting money... usually via a good job ($100k+) or run into family money or whatever
  2. Learn how to invest and eliminate debt (debt that's not for appreciating assets like biz, RE, etc)
  3. Building a scalable business (optional, but the way to reach mega-rich)
...Podiatry just takes way too long to get to #1... and you have waaay too much debt for the podiatry job you get. There are many faster paths to a good-pay job, and there are many with higher income for 11+ years of college/training. It's all about ROI.
 
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Not sure how many more examples us disgruntled posters need to post to prove our point.
 
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1705199035579.png
 
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How about 10 disgruntled people posting the same examples over and over again in response to every thread ....

Keep up the good work!
10 disgruntled posters share in common:

-previously worked in terrible PP podiatry office job with low pay, and empty promises
-fairly recent graduates whom have large student debts and loan that need to be paid and families to support
-experienced the transition to finding different jobs ranging from rural to large metro cities within hospitals, MSG and large orthopedic groups and even opening up shop
-dealt with various podiatry politics only to see the downfall happening in front us while leaders continue to forge a path ahead despite obvious red flags every step

But then again, the memes are doing a fantasist job!
 
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How about 10 disgruntled people posting the same examples over and over again in response to every thread ....

Keep up the good work!
No different than the same podiatrists on the ACFAS lecture circuit pushing foot and ankle surgery and everyone should be a surgeon.

No different than Armstrong, you, Lavery saying diabetes is increasing which means podiatry is vital

If the profession is so good why does it pay so badly? Why are starting salaries in podiatry in private practice lower than a general manager job for a restaurant or a PA or a CRNA, etc. Why are hospital salaries grossly lower than orthopedics (almost less than half)?

Why does every hospital job get flooded with applications?

Even when it comes to hiring for jobs at your own hospital you prefer fellowship trained podiatrists. You say the profession is great and needed on one hand then you show us how hypocritical you are by only wanting fellowship trained podiatrists for your hospital positions.

Every hospital would benefit from a podiatrist but why doesn’t every hospital have one? Because in the end we are not vital. Lots of different healthcare providers can ultimately provide the services we do. One could argue do they do it better (surgery, wound care)? Probably not.

What is one thing this profession will forever be tied with and is like the first thing every hospitalist, nurse or someone really unfamiliar with our profession (which is like everyone)…toenails.

Lastly, there is no equal opportunity in this profession. There is historically strong evidence that this profession backstabs and blocks other podiatrists either through hospital privileges, using board status to block surgical privileges, slandering, etc. Everyone has experienced this.

What other healthcare profession does this? Nobody because they aren’t over saturated like we are.
 
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For surgery informed consent is telling one the risks, benefits and alternatives? Yet when the risks, alternatives and benefits are discussed for this career we are often collectively dismissed as disgruntled.

Shadowing is great and something required by the schools, but unfortunately does not tell the whole story for this profession.

Most in other specialties and healthcare careers have very similar jobs with very similar salaries. They also have many available open jobs in many/most locations paying at or slightly above or below their profession's average salary with good benefits. Then there is podiatry where things are different. Do many, and probably even most do well in this profession eventually somehow, someway? I would say yes. Most is certainly not all. The somehow and someway part and what it entails also varies. Explaining how our job market is different with desirable jobs being competitive both near and far and that associate jobs often pay a low, sometimes even embarrassing low salary with no path to partnership (owner) is not being disgruntled it is being honest. Letting prospective students know that remaining geographically open for a job or that being a small business owner might be required to do well in this profession is also not being disgruntled it is being honest.
 
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No different than the same podiatrists on the ACFAS lecture circuit pushing foot and ankle surgery and everyone should be a surgeon.
I don't have anything to do with the ACFAS circuit, however ... it is the American College of Foot and Ankle Surgeons, so what else would they be promoting?
No different than Armstrong, you, Lavery saying diabetes is increasing which means podiatry is vital
Yes, diabetes is increasing. From the CDC:
Screen Shot 2024-01-22 at 2.23.44 AM.png
Yes, there will be more foot complications of diabetes that will need to be prevented/treated by experts.

If the profession is so good why does it pay so badly? Why are starting salaries in podiatry in private practice lower than a general manager job for a restaurant or a PA or a CRNA, etc. Why are hospital salaries grossly lower than orthopedics (almost less than half)?
That's your opinion. Most DPMs I know (including self-admittedly the SDN attendings) are doing just fine.

Why does every hospital job get flooded with applications?
Hospital jobs are more desirable?

Even when it comes to hiring for jobs at your own hospital you prefer fellowship trained podiatrists. You say the profession is great and needed on one hand then you show us how hypocritical you are by only wanting fellowship trained podiatrists for your hospital positions.
I've addressed this before. I'm not looking for a podiatrist to do a job and rack up RVUs. I'm looking for someone who is expected to be a professor, teach residents, do research, and publish. That is not someone who just finishes residency. Although I help all our residents find jobs and I receive inquiries for new grads to fill jobs more than 1x per week.
Every hospital would benefit from a podiatrist but why doesn’t every hospital have one? Because in the end we are not vital. Lots of different healthcare providers can ultimately provide the services we do. One could argue do they do it better (surgery, wound care)? Probably not.
There are podiatrists at almost every hospital in the US. They are not always hospital-employed, if that's what you're asking. But sometimes, you need to take the initiative and make the case for yourself and what you offer.

Can other providers do what we do? Yep. Do they want to? Nope. Do they do as good of a job? Debatable.
What is one thing this profession will forever be tied with and is like the first thing every hospitalist, nurse or someone really unfamiliar with our profession (which is like everyone)…toenails.
Then get out there and be a better example of what today's podiatrist does and make a better name for what we do. Stop being offended when someone doesn't know what you do. Use it as an opportunity to educate them.
Lastly, there is no equal opportunity in this profession. There is historically strong evidence that this profession backstabs and blocks other podiatrists either through hospital privileges, using board status to block surgical privileges, slandering, etc. Everyone has experienced this.
100% true. Podiatrists do eat their young. It must stop. We wrote about it here.

What other healthcare profession does this? Nobody because they aren’t over saturated like we are.
Sorry, but it's not unique to podiatry ...

Dentists
Nurses
Anesthesiologists
Radiologists
Pathologists
Physicians
 
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I don't have anything to do with the ACFAS circuit, however ... it is the American College of Foot and Ankle Surgeons, so what else would they be promoting?

Yes, diabetes is increasing. From the CDC:
View attachment 381404
Yes, there will be more foot complications of diabetes that will need to be prevented/treated by experts.


That's your opinion. Most DPMs I know (including self-admittedly the SDN attendings) are doing just fine.


Hospital jobs are more desirable?


I've addressed this before. I'm not looking for a podiatrist to do a job and rack up RVUs. I'm looking for someone who is expected to be a professor, teach residents, do research, and publish. That is not someone who just finishes residency. Although I help all our residents find jobs and I receive inquiries for new grads to fill jobs more than 1x per week.

There are podiatrists at almost every hospital in the US. They are not always hospital-employed, if that's what you're asking. But sometimes, you need to take the initiative and make the case for yourself and what you offer.

Can other providers do what we do? Yep. Do they want to? Nope. Do they do as good of a job? Debatable.

Then get out there and be a better example of what today's podiatrist does and make a better name for what we do. Stop being offended when someone doesn't know what you do. Use it as an opportunity to educate them.

100% true. Podiatrists do eat their young. It must stop. We wrote about it here.


Sorry, but it's not unique to podiatry ...

Dentists
Nurses
Anesthesiologists
Radiologists
Pathologists
Physicians
Honestly, as much as I dislike the whole "fellowship" only BS this was a decent post.
 
Honestly, as much as I dislike the whole "fellowship" only BS this was a decent post.
I wasn't going to comment, partly because I wanted Retro to have a chance to respond, partly because I thought the post was self-evidently refutable, and partly because these are old topics and we're really running out of stuff to talk about here. But I could use the exercise so here I go...
Yes, diabetes is increasing. From the CDC:
Screen Shot 2024-01-22 at 2.23.44 AM.png
Yes, there will be more foot complications of diabetes that will need to be prevented/treated by experts.
We really are overplaying the Diabetes card, so much so that I often wonder if other doctors know what we have to offer non-diabetics.

By FAR, the single most common complication of diabetes is thickened toenails. I agree that nail debridement is an important part of patient's hygiene, and I might even agree that nail debridement should be performed by a professional. Now should this professional absolutely be required to complete a doctorate and a 3-year surgical residency? No way.

Then you have people like Allen Jacobs writing into PM News that the nailcare appts really should not be about the nail care, we need to be performing thorough neuromuscular and circulatory exams to really screen for underlying problems. I just don't understand how much actionable information you gain from doing all that. Maybe there's some gait disturbance, maybe that translates to a few more PT scripts and a few less falls. Otherwise, if a neuropathic patient has no Achilles reflex, does that change your treatment algorithm? If a patient has asymptomatic PAD, does it confer a benefit to make the vascular referral just because? And at the end of the visit, we reappoint them for 9 weeks not because they need to be re-screened but because they need their toenails clipped.

I personally enjoy wound care, I know many of us on here don't, and most pods in my community definitely don't. I agree it's important, but the increasing incidence of wounds is not driving professional demand. And like almost all other DPMs not employed in a university setting, I'm not touching Charcot with a 10 foot pole.

I am skeptical of all the epidemiological studies involving podiatry and diabetes. They're taking a 30,000 foot view without thinking critically about mechanisms of action/behavior. Yes patients who are conscientious about going to their podiatrist will have better outcomes, because they are conscientious in other dimensions of their health. This is called selection bias. I know this is not what the literature reports, I know I'm just an idiot PP attending doing what he's told, but you can't ask me to ignore the evidence before my own eyes.
That's your opinion. Most DPMs I know (including self-admittedly the SDN attendings) are doing just fine.
This has been argued here. Most podiatrists make it eventually, after spending a few years of eating :1poop:. It's the mandatory :1poop:-eating phase we need to curtail.

Even once you "make it," most of us have zero mobility. You have to settle in less-than-desireable situations because there aren't any realistic options without uprooting your whole life. Jarrod Shapiro came on here and wrote about how he had to relocate 3x to different states to land where he landed. Kudos to him that he's enjoying his success, but this shouldn't be a normal feature of the podiatrist's career. It was either the toenail thread or the lobster thread (or maybe they're all lobster threads) where I talked about how I do things not because I choose to but because I don't have any choice.
Hospital jobs are more desirable?
Why do you suppose that is? Hint: see my :1poop:-eating remarks above.
I've addressed this before. I'm not looking for a podiatrist to do a job and rack up RVUs. I'm looking for someone who is expected to be a professor, teach residents, do research, and publish. That is not someone who just finishes residency. Although I help all our residents find jobs and I receive inquiries for new grads to fill jobs more than 1x per week.
I find this reasonable, academic medical positions are not so much about patient care as they are about producing paper. This dovetails with my diabetes remarks. Get a cloistered academic gig writing papers about the importance of diabetic foot care to minimize the amount of diabetic foot care you need to actually do.
Can other providers do what we do? Yep. Do they want to? Nope. Do they do as good of a job? Debatable.
🦞
Then get out there and be a better example of what today's podiatrist does and make a better name for what we do. Stop being offended when someone doesn't know what you do. Use it as an opportunity to educate them.
Another thing I've written about and we've discussed is the baggage that comes with being a podiatrist, everyone's preconceived notions about us. I have too many other battles to fight, not taking on this one. Not interested in changing hearts and minds or getting involved with leadership comittees. If drafted, I will not run; if nominated, I will not accept; if elected, I will not serve.
100% true. Podiatrists do eat their young. It must stop. We wrote about it here.
ABFAS is not responsible for the eating our young culture.
I used to be friendly with someone who was a professor of Islamic Studies. She told me an anecdote about how the ambassador from Saudi Arabia to the U.S. was once asked about Saudi Arabia's poor record for women's rights. He responded to the effect of, "In Saudi Arabia, we have our problems with mistreatment of women, but in the U.S. you have your problems with mistreatment of women too, so mistreatment of women is a problem for all of us."
 
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You could go to podiatry school and ruin your life or you could not. The choice is yours but don't say nobody warned you.
 
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