What is the deal with podiatry?

[SoleScholar]

It all depends on what the end result is imo... the ROI (money and job quality).
Podiatry unfortunately has ROI of 1:2 or 1:3 (at least early on), sometimes even 1:4+ for grads finishing training. That is turrible.

1. It's not ideal to do $250k-300k debt for DPM training... but it's acceptable if you finish podiatry school graduating high, secure good residency, pass boards... and fairly soon after training, you can get a ~225k VA or rural hospital job or start your own office and make around $300k/yr net (ROI = 1:1... eventually).
2. It's a great result to end up with $400k debt if you get a great residency, maybe a top DPM fellowship or flex residency connects, and land a 250k+ hospital DPM job (with RVU bonuses) right out of training and end up making $350k+ with great job quality that you like (ROI 1:1 almost immediately).
3. It's an awesome result to do $300k debt for DPM if you have a parent podiatrist who can help you step into a podiatry career making $300k or even $500k+++ if there are associates (1:1 ROI instantly... and it only gets better and better).
4. If's a bad result at even $200k-250k debt if one bumbles in pod school, scrambles to a crummy program, fails boards, ends up doing menial chriopody or underpaid associate or mobile podiatry with very limited job options for $100k or $125k or so (ROI = 1:2 and job quality low indefinitely).

...Would you pay $500k for a job that makes $500k+ per year (MD path for most surgery or procedure specialty trainings, especially if they do private school or OOS tuition at any stage)... of course we all would. It's all about ROI in financial and satisfaction and job option terms.

I want to live somewhere rural

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Forcewielder]

I want to live somewhere rural

That's good. You'll have a better chance to get something you want. However, don't get so attached to private practice.

I was fortunate enough to land a rural hospital gig where I can clear 400k. I am well known in the community and will never have a shortage of business because I'm an hour drive from the next closest podiatrist in any direction. I don't get to do some of the sender surgeries because my hospital doesn't have the necessary equipment or staffing so I have to refer a lot. However, I get to be a part of the community and make a meaningful difference and am well compensated. I am, however, the extreme exception compared to my peers. Life is a game of chance. You just do your best to play the odds, but even the best strategy can make you bust. As long as you can make the decision to play, knowing you're at long odds to win, go ahead. If you're looking for the fabled 9-5 with minimal call and the doctor income then move along.

 

[podiatryresident]

I honestly don't know how people go over 200k in podiatry school.

Maybe instead of choosing a California, New York, or the Philly school, one could choose a place that's actually reasonable with COL.

I paid less than 1k an month on expenses (rent, food, wifi, everything). Yes I had to budget well, but I heard many students paying 4k+ a month and I'm just like "how...wtf...are you eating gold"?

Hi Robin, I don't know where you study and how you live, but I'm sure I'm frugal. You asked how, so I will tell you :
1. Tuition fees and equipments and ... : 45k a year average ? 4 years : 180k, interest will be from day 1 until 4 years => 180k + interest in 6% = 203k ( I already calculated interest year by year as compounding )
2. Frugal living expenses : $1500 per month including : sharing a room, food, gas, car insurance, phone bills... assuming you have medicaid and car paid off, and your rotations are next door : 72k for 4 years with 6% interest => 81k.
So, you enter the residency with 290k with a very frugal style. Now do you think you can pay the interest alone with resident's stipend or you continue to grow the debt ? Most students now are taking grad and grad plus loans. I doubt if they can have 6% in average now
p.s : I didn't have to go through 4 years and I didn't have student loans but don't be so naive and criticize people who have > 300k. 300k after residency is a very low debt taker nowadays without any help, probably some scholarships included!

 

[Robin-jay]

Hi Robin, I don't know where you study and how you live, but I'm sure I'm frugal. You asked how, so I will tell you :
1. Tuition fees and equipments and ... : 45k a year average ? 4 years : 180k, interest will be from day 1 until 4 years => 180k + interest in 6% = 203k ( I already calculated interest year by year as compounding )
2. Frugal living expenses : $1500 per month including : sharing a room, food, gas, car insurance, phone bills... assuming you have medicaid and car paid off, and your rotations are next door : 72k for 4 years with 6% interest => 81k.
So, you enter the residency with 290k with a very frugal style. Now do you think you can pay the interest alone with resident's stipend or you continue to grow the debt ? Most students now are taking grad and grad plus loans. I doubt if they can have 6% in average now
p.s : I didn't have to go through 4 years and I didn't have student loans but don't be so naive and criticize people who have > 300k. 300k after residency is a very low debt taker nowadays without any help, probably some scholarships included!

I'm sure the fact I went through undergrad and grad with no debt, have a car paid off, Had a couple semesters of pod school scholarships to pay for it, and had 650 dollar average rent played a tremendous part in having less than 200k debt.

However, I still think 300k means means the person wasn't as frugal as they could have been at some point.

I don't even buy Christmas presents for family members during podiatry school.

But I was paying way less than 1500 a month on average for living cost of living expenses. Most months were probably closer to 950-ish in total. 650 for rent, 50-60 for wifi, 100 for gas money or so, and very little for food because I just ate rice and canned foods most of the time, or I would use a fast food app and get an entire meal, (minus the drink) for 3 dollars.

For externships, I've only paid gas money and 400 dollars for 1 area to rent the entire year. The rest of the places I either stayed with friends or family for free.

When I say I hate spending money, I mean it.

 

[Adam Smasher]

But I was paying way less than 1500 a month on average for living cost of living expenses. Most months were probably closer to 950-ish in total. 650 for rent, 50-60 for wifi, 100 for gas money or so, and very little for food because I just ate rice and canned foods most of the time, or I would use a fast food app and get an entire meal, (minus the drink) for 3 dollars.

OK so let's say you're right. You live like John the Baptist eating wild locusts and honey, and instead of 290 you enter residency with a debt of...260. Sure that's better but living like a hermit and eating garbage takes its toll in other ways. Eat some real food, be happier, smarter, sharper on externships.

 

[Robin-jay]

OK so let's say you're right. You live like John the Baptist eating wild locusts and honey, and instead of 290 you enter residency with a debt of...260. Sure that's better but living like a hermit and eating garbage takes its toll in other ways. Eat some real food, be happier, smarter, sharper on externships.

If I did that, it would be closer to 150k, not 260k.

But ya, I agree there's obviously a limit to how much you can save without it influencing your academic and clinical performance. I can't be homeless for externships, but I can choose externship patterns where I can utilize family, friends, or extremely cheap housing for the month.

Most of my colleagues spend more money on 1 externship than I did on 6.

I know externs that would travel somewhere, pay 1000 for airBnB, spend 1500+ for a car the rent for the month, and then eat regularly and go to restaurants and events, and the costs are 4k+ for one externship....more than I paid for all mine combined.

I understand that some people can't dodge some externship costs, but they really do splurge...while insisting that it's "necessary" costs, and then wonder why they have 300k+ debt.

 

[Adam Smasher]

Also if you're going to bum food/lodging off your parents, at least buy them something for Christmas. Back while I was a broke extern, there was a local community theater production of "Hello Dolly" that I took my family out to, it was cheap, and it was delightful

 

[Robin-jay]

Also if you're going to bum food/lodging off your parents, at least buy them something for Christmas. Back while I was a broke extern, there was a local community theater production of "Hello Dolly" that I took my family out to, it was cheap, and it was delightful

Ya, Im about out of the student situation anyway so I don't have to be as monstrously frugal anymore. So some level of gifting is probably fine from here on out!

 

[Feli]

....choose externship patterns where I can utilize family, friends, or extremely cheap housing for the month.

Most of my colleagues spend more money on 1 externship than I did on 6.

I know externs that would travel somewhere, pay 1000 for airBnB, spend 1500+ for a car the rent for the month, and then eat regularly and go to restaurants and events, and the costs are 4k+ for one externship....more than I paid for all mine combined. ...

This is very bad advice. ^^^

There is nothing wrong with saving some money with scholarships, cheaper meals, less frills or travel as a pod student.
However, podiatry externships are not the time to cheap out.
They are the time to find good training, compare options, and your best chance to create match options.
Getting a good residency is the whole point of going to podiatry school (assuming you obviously pass, pass student boards).

The point of externships is to learn, and anyone with their eyes open knows it's also the main chance to gain good residency match options.
Someone who spends $15k (plus whatever rent or storage unit back in pod school city) to do five top end clerk months is infinitely better off than someone who saved their money by doing average and junk programs since they were in the hometown, pod school area, cheap or free rental housing, etc.

I didn't take it to quite the extreme that some of the other student surgery club officers from my school did (some of them flew to clerk PI, Kaiser, UPMC, Inova, Swedish, DMC, etc top programs). I still did a lot of driving to see 5 top programs in 4 cities from south to north and central to east. In the end, we all got great training and good end results in terms of incomes and satisfaction... ortho group, residency faculty, solo/partner pod office, etc.

It is said on here all the time, but podiatry residencies are NOT all similar in quality or surgery volume.
That is a huge mistake and dangerous thinking.
Many of our residencies are flat out inadequate (hence ABFAS board pass rates and all the threads you see about nightmare clerkships, residency, and needing to transfer).

...Best of luck to you in the match, but it is not good advice to step over a dollar to save a dime on clerkship travels. That dime will probably end up costing you seven figures over the course of a career - not to mention good chance it'll leave you lacking skills and job options and quality. You will see a bit on match day, and you will know much more around pgy3 job search... and still more years out into the job world. I would doubt you will look back and say you'd have done it all the same.

 

[Robin-jay]

This is very bad advice. ^^^

Externships are not the time to cheap out.
They are the time to find good training, compare options, and your best chance to create match options.
Getting a good residency is the whole point of going to podiatry school (assuming you obviously pass, pass student boards).

The point of externships is to learn, and anyone with their eyes open knows it's also the main chance to gain good residency match options.
Someone who spends $15k (plus whatever rent or storage unit back in pod school city) to do five top end clerk months is infinitely better off than someone who saved their money by doing average and junk programs since they were in the hometown, pod school area, etc.

I didn't take it to quite the extreme that some of the other student surgery club officers from my school did (some of them flew to clerk PI, Kaiser, UPMC, Inova, Swedish, DMC, etc top programs). I still did a lot of driving to see top programs in 4 cities from south to north and central to east. In the end, we all got great training and good end results in terms of incomes and satisfaction... ortho group, residency faculty, solo/partner pod office, etc.

It is said on here all the time, but podiatry residencies are NOT all similar in quality or surgery volume.
That is a huge mistake and dangerous thinking.
Many of our residencies are flat out inadequate (hence ABFAS board pass rates and all the threads you see about nightmare clerkships, residency, and needing to transfer).

...Best of luck to you in the match, but it is not good advice to step over a dollar to save a dime on clerkship travels. That dime will probably end up costing you seven figures over the course of a career - not to mention good chance it'll leave you lacking skills and job options and quality. You will see a bit on match day, and you will know much more around pgy3 job search... and still more years out into the job world. I would doubt you will look back and say you'd have done it all the same.

It is objectively NOT bad advice.

I did NOT choose worse externships, or externships to save money.

Many students did clerkships to basally take vacations to other areas in the USA.

I did my externships at places I could realistically do residency at, and those places also happened to be around a lot of areas in which I had family and friends.

This make logical sense because many physicians prefer to do residency closer to home than further from it, as long as the residencies are solid.

 

[Forcewielder]

It is objectively NOT bad advice.

I did NOT choose worse externships, or externships to save money.

Many students did clerkships to basally take vacations to other areas in the USA.

I did my externships at places I could realistically do residency at, and those places also happened to be around a lot of areas in which I had family and friends.

This make logical sense because many physicians prefer to do residency closer to home than further from it, as long as the residencies are solid.

Feli beat me to it. Literally my last thought during externships was the cost. I'm as cheap as anyone I know. That said, your only job during that time should be learning and networking. If the opportunity presented itself to go out with the residents then don't cheap out. When I chose rotations I did it solely on the program, not cost of living or proximity to friends/family. It's also a good idea to explore the city you visit. Gives you something to connect with the current residents on. Even if you're a 4.0 student, if you're not fun to be around then you'll likely struggle at most programs to match.

As for your earlier comment saying you could have done it for 150k if you'd been super cheap... no you literally could not have. Podiatryresident gave the bare minimum number of 203k for their school after interest. If you got a decent scholarship then good for you. But the whole thing started with you saying you don't know how people spend over 200k without living excessive lifestyles. And you said you lived off of canned food and rice or fast food value menus. Congrats. You are now a healthcare provider that has the most hypocritical lifestyle ever haha

 

[wakaflocka88]

It is objectively NOT bad advice.

I did NOT choose worse externships, or externships to save money.

Many students did clerkships to basally take vacations to other areas in the USA.

I did my externships at places I could realistically do residency at, and those places also happened to be around a lot of areas in which I had family and friends.

This make logical sense because many physicians prefer to do residency closer to home than further from it, as long as the residencies are solid.

Bro, what are you talking about?

 

[SoleScholar]

Anyways, to get back to the original discussion at hand, it essentially boils down to would I rather be a general surgeon or a podiatrist? If I went to medical school I would want to do gen surg, I'd rather do podiatry than IM or FM. DOs have like a 60% match rate into gen surg. I hear lots of negative things about gen surg too though.

 

[Weirdy]

Anyways, to get back to the original discussion at hand, it essentially boils down to would I rather be a general surgeon or a podiatrist? If I went to medical school I would want to do gen surg, I'd rather do podiatry than IM or FM. DOs have like a 60% match rate into gen surg. I hear lots of negative things about gen surg too though.

You have not gone through podiatry school or residency yet.

What you see and perceive to be as podiatry is not what you will feel like in 4-7 years after you have gone through it.

Respectfully, shadow some more before you start quoting what others say on here and rumors you hear as the truth.

 

[iridocyclitiss]

Anyways, to get back to the original discussion at hand, it essentially boils down to would I rather be a general surgeon or a podiatrist? If I went to medical school I would want to do gen surg, I'd rather do podiatry than IM or FM. DOs have like a 60% match rate into gen surg. I hear lots of negative things about gen surg too though.

I did a gen surg rotation at the start of fourth year. Easily the hardest rotation of fourth year in terms of the hours (3:30 am to 6 pm). They have a better ROI but their residency at least at the program I was at was like the marines lol they were hardcore.

Pod is cool. Maybe exhaust your gen surg dream first. You’re already accepted to pod school.

 

[SoleScholar]

You have not gone through podiatry school or residency yet.

What you see and perceive to be as podiatry is not what you will feel like in 4-7 years after you have gone through it.

Respectfully, shadow some more before you start quoting what others say on here and rumors you hear as the truth.

Right, but you can say that about literally anything - "not what you will feel like in 4-7 years after you have gone through it".
I will be shadowing more.

I did a gen surg rotation at the start of fourth year. Easily the hardest rotation of fourth year in terms of the hours (3:30 am to 6 pm). They have a better ROI but their residency at least at the program I was at was like the marines lol they were hardcore.

Pod is cool. Maybe exhaust your gen surg dream first. You’re already accepted to pod school.

Idk, I don't want to go in debt on something my heart isn't set on. I need to figure this out and then just move forwards. I think medical school would be a bad move if I already don't want to do FM or IM and if I later find out I really don't like general surgery.

 

[Robin-jay]

Bro, what are you talking about?

The insinuation that I chose externships to specifically save money is incorrect.

The externships and areas I want to be a resident and/or practice at are mostly either located near my apartment, family, friends, etc. to the point where I had to only had to pay for 1 externship in terms of renting a place.

However, I did spend considerable gas money on a couple of them.

The point is that I didn't just cheap out on externships.

And during externships, I hung out with residents and attendings, usually at restaurants, which were mostly covered by reps anyway.

 

[Adam Smasher]

@Robin-jay , you don't need to die on this hill, just understand some people need to put down some serious money in the process of going through school, kudos to you and your supportive family that you have not needed to.

Also congrats on posting the most disliked comment I've seen in the podiatry forums. Given that there are commenters here who contend podiatry is not saturated and that new schools are needed and beneficial, you have really achieved something.

 

[Forcewielder]

Right, but you can say that about literally anything - "not what you will feel like in 4-7 years after you have gone through it".
I will be shadowing more.

Idk, I don't want to go in debt on something my heart isn't set on. I need to figure this out and then just move forwards. I think medical school would be a bad move if I already don't want to do FM or IM and if I later find out I really don't like general surgery.

Again, I've been fortunate enough that I have a great job and compensation so I'm far from bitter. That said, I defy the odds and there's a certain level of stress associated with worrying what would happen if this job ever changed. I've got so many peers stuck in awful situations, and the few that have great jobs have shared a similar level of anxiety about what happens if they lose it.

General surgery couldn't be much different than podiatry as far as lifestyle and the day to day. In big cities a general surgeon primarily does lap cholecystectomies and appendectomies vs EGDs and colonoscopies. In rural settings they will do all of these but they'll also likely be doing everything from amputations to emergency c-sections to tumor excisions. It's really amazing all that they do on a regular basis. Regardless, they are constantly doing surgery and their clinics are generally all consults or postop followups. Meanwhile, very few podiatrists are surgery heavy. I'd say this is evidenced by the fact that I got all my ABFAS surgical numbers in less than a year and I'm only in surgery a couple cases a week.

It really is such a bait and switch. We spend so long learning surgery. I even went to some externships where they literally did clinic for only 1 day a week. The reality is a decent chunk of podiatrists will be completely nonsurgical, probably half will do a couple cases a week like me, and only a very small percentage will be spending a quarter or more of their time in the OR.

One last point that I neglected to mention that is very pertinent is that an MD/DO opens so many doors. Even if you say "screw patient care", you can parlay those magic letters into so many types of jobs. A DPM is worthless beyond making you a podiatrist. You are locked in from day 1 of pod school. When COVID hit, I had a crappy job at the time and I would have loved to take one of the frontline jobs that were paying thousands a day for travel nurses or doctors. But there are no such opportunities for us. When in doubt, get the most versatile degree

 

[air bud]

Again, I've been fortunate enough that I have a great job and compensation so I'm far from bitter. That said, I defy the odds and there's a certain level of stress associated with worrying what would happen if this job ever changed. I've got so many peers stuck in awful situations, and the few that have great jobs have shared a similar level of anxiety about what happens if they lose it.

General surgery couldn't be much different than podiatry as far as lifestyle and the day to day. In big cities a general surgeon primarily does lap cholecystectomies and appendectomies vs EGDs and colonoscopies. In rural settings they will do all of these but they'll also likely be doing everything from amputations to emergency c-sections to tumor excisions. It's really amazing all that they do on a regular basis. Regardless, they are constantly doing surgery and their clinics are generally all consults or postop followups. Meanwhile, very few podiatrists are surgery heavy. I'd say this is evidenced by the fact that I got all my ABFAS surgical numbers in less than a year and I'm only in surgery a couple cases a week.

It really is such a bait and switch. We spend so long learning surgery. I even went to some externships where they literally did clinic for only 1 day a week. The reality is a decent chunk of podiatrists will be completely nonsurgical, probably half will do a couple cases a week like me, and only a very small percentage will be spending a quarter or more of their time in the OR.

One last point that I neglected to mention that is very pertinent is that an MD/DO opens so many doors. Even if you say "screw patient care", you can parlay those magic letters into so many types of jobs. A DPM is worthless beyond making you a podiatrist. You are locked in from day 1 of pod school. When COVID hit, I had a crappy job at the time and I would have loved to take one of the frontline jobs that were paying thousands a day for travel nurses or doctors. But there are no such opportunities for us. When in doubt, get the most versatile degree

You hit the nail on the head with some of those rural challenges.... something happens and you gotta move. Can't just live in your house and go set up shop in a different part of the city.

Also you guys are crazy using this GS analogy...you realize a million different specialties you can go to from GS?

 

[Robin-jay]

@Robin-jay , you don't need to die on this hill, just understand some people need to put down some serious money in the process of going through school, kudos to you and your supportive family that you have not needed to.

Also congrats on posting the most disliked comment I've seen in the podiatry forums. Given that there are commenters here who contend podiatry is not saturated and that new schools are needed and beneficial, you have really achieved something.

You win some, you lose some.

I can see cases where you have to drop serious coin, like having a family.

I was unaware that saying that going to externships, but try to be somewhat frugal on things like your food intake, would be so controversial.

Perhaps the wise old adage of "be careful of living like doctors as students, as you will end up living like students as doctors", needs to be more vocal.

 

[icebreaker32]

It is very possible to come out of podiatry school with a lot of debt. Most schools are private and in large expensive cities. If a few are able to keep their debt lower for whatever reason then great, but don’t judge others. This is like all new residency graduates that get a great job organizational job telling others they did not try hard enough and that is why they got an associate job. It is not usually true.

To OP you have been given good advice. If you love podiatry then become a podiatrist. You are not a student foot and ankle surgeon the day you enroll, you are a podiatry student. You might do very well financially or you might have mild to serious regret for your ROI and years of your life spent in school/residency.

Many in other healthcare professions have regret and do not like clinical medicine as much as they had hoped. That being said their degree is more versatile, their ROI is usually always good and their availability to find whenever and wherever they want is good. In podiatry you often have to network or keep trying for one good opportunity or create your own. If that one opportunity comes easily and early enough in your career for someone that never wants to move or leave clinical medicine it is arguably a better career than IM or FP in many ways. That is not how it works out for most.

 

[Forcewielder]

You win some, you lose some.

I can see cases where you have to drop serious coin, like having a family.

I was unaware that saying that going to externships, but try to be somewhat frugal on things like your food intake, would be so controversial.

Perhaps the wise old adage of "be careful of living like doctors as students, as you will end up living like students as doctors", needs to be more vocal.

Again you miss the point. You're either being obtuse or oblivious. To summarize:

- It is obviously wise to be frugal when you're living on loans.
- It is important to prioritize your learning and networking opportunities in school over being frugal as the long term benefit vastly outweighs the costs.
- Your health is more important than your money. Living off junk will reduce your mental health as much as your physical.
- What was controversial was your condescending manner in which you said you don't know how people end up in so much debt and then went on to brag how cheap you were. And again, I used the word cheap, not frugal.

Hope this clears up the confusion. Cheers

 

[Robin-jay]

Again you miss the point. You're either being obtuse or oblivious. To summarize:

- It is obviously wise to be frugal when you're living on loans.
- It is important to prioritize your learning and networking opportunities in school over being frugal as the long term benefit vastly outweighs the costs.
- Your health is more important than your money. Living off junk will reduce your mental health as much as your physical.
- What was controversial was your condescending manner in which you said you don't know how people end up in so much debt and then went on to brag how cheap you were. And again, I used the word cheap, not frugal.

Hope this clears up the confusion. Cheers

The correct word is frugal. If I was cheap, I wouldn't pay for a professional school.

I can see how some things I mentioned come across as cheap, like being very frugal with Christmas gifts, but that's temporary as a student, not afterwards.

I'm not advocating people just eat the cheapest junk food around. I'm pointing out going to restaurants, etc. all the time as a student may not be the best idea.

I pay a pretty penny for things like dentistry, so I agree that keeping your health in top shape is important.

Health is a major investment to future success in your own career. Investments make sense.

My point is that students should be frugal, and the fact so so many people take offense to that notion means many students don't care for that outlook at all, which is probably part of the problem.

 

[Weirdy]

Cool it guys.

 

[footshazam]

The correct word is frugal. If I was cheap, I wouldn't pay for a professional school.

I can see how some things I mentioned come across as cheap, like being very frugal with Christmas gifts, but that's temporary as a student, not afterwards.

I'm not advocating people just eat the cheapest junk food around. I'm pointing out going to restaurants, etc. all the time as a student may not be the best idea.

I pay a pretty penny for things like dentistry, so I agree that keeping your health in top shape is important.

Health is a major investment to future success in your own career. Investments make sense.

My point is that students should be frugal, and the fact so so many people take offense to that notion means many students don't care for that outlook at all, which is probably part of the problem.

You really need to drop this whole conversation because coming out of school with that much debt is definitely possible at schools like Temple and SMU to name 2… it’s easy to see that if you just look up tuition cost and cost of living… exactly what point are you trying to prove???Nobody wants to live like a peasant when going through all that stress. Just be quiet please.

 

[air bud]

Again you miss the point. You're either being obtuse or oblivious. To summarize:

- It is obviously wise to be frugal when you're living on loans.
- It is important to prioritize your learning and networking opportunities in school over being frugal as the long term benefit vastly outweighs the costs.
- Your health is more important than your money. Living off junk will reduce your mental health as much as your physical.
- What was controversial was your condescending manner in which you said you don't know how people end up in so much debt and then went on to brag how cheap you were. And again, I used the word cheap, not frugal.

Hope this clears up the confusion. Cheers

Has already stated in the past all residencies are the same so best to keep costs low...

 

[Feli]

Has already stated in the past all residencies are the same so best to keep costs low...

He will soon release a 'Best of' with all of the sdn chart toppers?

"GPA don't matter"
"All residencies are equal"
"Hometown clerkships"
"Logic... from what I've observed'
"Graduatin under 200k"
"Advisin tho I ain't matched yet"
"Top residencies, bad doctors"
...and many more! 🥁🎶🎸🎙️

 

[Robin-jay]

He will soon release a 'Best of' with all of the sdn chart toppers?

"GPA don't matter"
"All residencies are equal"
"Hometown clerkships"
"Logic... from what I've observed'
"Graduatin under 200k"
"Advisin tho I ain't matched yet"
"Top residencies, bad doctors"
...and many more! 🥁🎶🎸🎙️

"Quotes taken out of context can completely change the meaning of what someone says. This tactic is commonly used to spread misinformation"

 

[Robin-jay]

You really need to drop this whole conversation because coming out of school with that much debt is definitely possible at schools like Temple and SMU to name 2… it’s easy to see that if you just look up tuition cost and cost of living… exactly what point are you trying to prove???Nobody wants to live like a peasant when going through all that stress. Just be quiet please.

Usually podiatry students get to choose their school to an extent, it's rare you only get into an expensive school (due to COL), and not the less expensive ones. Meaning most podiatry students have a choice to go to places where they can save 100k+ based on location.

 

[Feli]

... podiatry students have a choice to go to places where they can save 100k+ a year based on location.

That does not even make sense, sir.

I sometimes think it makes people lose intelligence by trying to converse with you.
It is like reasoning with Venom when he's hungry for people's heads.

It's all fine and good to have wild opinions or to try the path less travelled (for yourself!), but trying to answer people's questions with your "from what I saw" longshot views and state "based on my experience" things as fact to pre-pods and students asking legit questions is just outta bounds.

 

[footshazam]

Usually podiatry students get to choose their school to an extent, it's rare you only get into an expensive school (due to COL), and not the less expensive ones. Meaning most podiatry students have a choice to go to places where they can save 100k+ a year based on location.

And you’re still talking…

 

[Robin-jay]

That does not even make sense, sir.

I sometimes think it makes people lose intelligence by trying to converse with you.
It is like reasoning with Venom when he's hungry for people's heads.

It's all fine and good to have wild opinions or to try the path less travelled (for yourself!), but trying to answer people's questions with your "from what I saw" longshot views and state "based on my experience" things as fact to pre-pods and students asking legit questions is just outta bounds.

Saying it’s a wild opinion to say choosing a podiatry medical school that can save you 100k+ in COL is silly. It’s a very reasonable consideration.

 

[air bud]

Usually podiatry students get to choose their school to an extent, it's rare you only get into an expensive school (due to COL), and not the less expensive ones. Meaning most podiatry students have a choice to go to places where they can save 100k+ a year based on location.

This is correct not sure why people are down voting....the craziest thing I ever heard is some guy from Iowa who went to the Same Merrit 69ers instead of THE dmu.

 

[I Drink Riesling]

I think medical school would be a bad move if I already don't want to do FM or IM and if I later find out I really don't like general surgery.

I think you have gotten really great responses on this thread. Surgery is really advertised heavily when recruiting podiatry students, but I’ve observed a lot of fellow classmates and residents lose that romance with it over the years. FM and IM are great specialties and are the reason why surgeons are able to do what they do. You have a good plan and I wish you the best of luck OP. Who knows, you may become a top podiatrist, or a top IM if you choose medical school in the future.

 

[PTPuser]

Go take your MCAT and then reassess.

You don't know what you don't know and this will stand true till pig fly.

We were all in your shoes and most of us, myself included, didn't listen and now it's too deep to make any significant move.

The poster above mention something beautifully that is constantly overlooked and that is the fact that MD/DO are not locked like us and even if they don't want clinical work, academic, research etc can be taken. It's not the same with pod.

DO NOT CLOSE DOORS BEFORE YOU WALK THROUGH.

Right now you may not want certain things but I promise you, anything in life can be thrown at you at any moment and you may need to change your trajectory and you really don't want that to be an uphill battle, which is why we're all telling you to please reconsider and think hard about pod.

My family is in a completely different time zone compared to me and I can't bank on the fact that after pod I will land something close to them that will compensate me appropriately. So my choices are limited.

My FM/IM friends literally can throw a dart anywhere on the map and start the next day. We're not on the same wavelength.

And don't be fooled into thinking, "that will NEVER be me. I will never be dealing with that problem cause I want rural etc" because it can and will creep up on you.

This is all coming from someone who is 5 years ahead of you and those above are decades above both of us.

 

[PTPuser]

I get it. It sucks, cause you were on this pre-med track and it's just not working out.

You still want to be a doctor, you still want to help people and you still want to call the shot and it absolutely feels like a failure with low grades and low mcat score cause this is all we know so we strive for the next best thing cause that's what pod sells to us.

They sell us that dream and hope and it can be true for some but for majority it isn't.

And theoretically it makes so much sense to just do that cause it's easy picking and right there but we let our insecurities cloud the judgements and find out that it's the path of most resistant.

Adam Smasher says it all the time. Majority don't hate the work, but dear Lord, we bring knives to a gun fight. It's hard and it's even harder now with the constant regulation, saturation and training which has been hashed out so many time already.

Please just think hard. You can help people in soooo many other ways and there are more path that will lead to similar gratification.

 

[PTPuser]

Another huge point to consider and not take lightly, is the fact that you have pods who "made it" i.e. high paying job, autonomy, success etc. saying that they are fearful that this opportunity can be taken away real quick, whether it's a new guy coming on, a huge group, hospital system etc. You don't hear that in the MD/DO world.
Some of these guys and gals, if they were to be let go from their post right now, it's very very hard to find something similar to that.

None of this will mean much right now cause in your mind you're just focusing on getting that "Doctor" title and I get that cause I was in your shoe.

But if me and those before you don't give you the come to Jesus talk, that's another lost soul to this process and it physically pains me seeing people continuing to enter this.

I was just like you. I shadowed and even worked for one but none of this was told to me and I was so confused by the discrepancy between the world I saw outside of the internet but then it hit me, it hit me hard year after year while getting this degree and I see everything that dtrack,feli, heybrother are constantly saying. But it's too late.

 

[Forcewielder]

Another huge point to consider and not take lightly, is the fact that you have pods who "made it" i.e. high paying job, autonomy, success etc. saying that they are fearful that this opportunity can be taken away real quick, whether it's a new guy coming on, a huge group, hospital system etc. You don't hear that in the MD/DO world.
Some of these guys and gals, if they were to be let go from their post right now, it's very very hard to find something similar to that.

None of this will mean much right now cause in your mind you're just focusing on getting that "Doctor" title and I get that cause I was in your shoe.

But if me and those before you don't give you the come to Jesus talk, that's another lost soul to this process and it physically pains me seeing people continuing to enter this.

I was just like you. I shadowed and even worked for one but none of this was told to me and I was so confused by the discrepancy between the world I saw outside of the internet but then it hit me, it hit me hard year after year while getting this degree and I see everything that dtrack,feli, heybrother are constantly saying. But it's too late.

So true. I had a very strong MCAT and GPA and was ready to go allopathic (I had many classmates with same qualifications that went to the local school) when I met a podiatrist and I really enjoyed what he did. So I looked into podiatry and everything was this bunch of overly optimistic bullcrap. I remember reading all types of fluff pieces saying how in demand podiatry was, how it's only becoming increasingly more important to aging boomers and with diabetes on the rise, and how there was a shortage of podiatrists. I felt I'd discovered a niche that I could exploit. Often in life it is beneficial to go against the grain, but sometimes conventional wisdom is there for a reason. I would never advise anyone on the fence between allopathic and podiatric to go podiatric in hindsight. It works out for some, but for so many it does not. HeyBrother had a great post in a different thread mentioning how much podiatry has changed for the worse in the past decade and how there's so much uncertainty about the next decade. Just take the sure bet sometimes. I guarantee you can still function as a podiatrist someday if you wanted to as an MD or DO... but who would do that to themselves? Haha

 

[PTPuser]

So true. I had a very strong MCAT and GPA and was ready to go allopathic (I had many classmates with same qualifications that went to the local school) when I met a podiatrist and I really enjoyed what he did. So I looked into podiatry and everything was this bunch of overly optimistic bullcrap. I remember reading all types of fluff pieces saying how in demand podiatry was, how it's only becoming increasingly more important to aging boomers and with diabetes on the rise, and how there was a shortage of podiatrists. I felt I'd discovered a niche that I could exploit. Often in life it is beneficial to go against the grain, but sometimes conventional wisdom is there for a reason. I would never advise anyone on the fence between allopathic and podiatric to go podiatric in hindsight. It works out for some, but for so many it does not. HeyBrother had a great post in a different thread mentioning how much podiatry has changed for the worse in the past decade and how there's so much uncertainty about the next decade. Just take the sure bet sometimes. I guarantee you can still function as a podiatrist someday if you wanted to as an MD or DO... but who would do that to themselves? Haha

I didn't have the mcat. I was so set on the goal of becoming a doctor, I let it all cloud my judgement and I know alot of folks who were in the same boat cause the fear of being seen as a failure was so strong that we were all just grasping for something.

Even the thought of leaving after residency still makes me feel like I failed. But I promised myself to give it my best effort before I truly leave.

I drank the koolaid. I like pod and don't mind working hard but I could've gotten the same satisfaction from being an PA/NP.

 

[air bud]

So true. I had a very strong MCAT and GPA and was ready to go allopathic (I had many classmates with same qualifications that went to the local school) when I met a podiatrist and I really enjoyed what he did. So I looked into podiatry and everything was this bunch of overly optimistic bullcrap. I remember reading all types of fluff pieces saying how in demand podiatry was, how it's only becoming increasingly more important to aging boomers and with diabetes on the rise, and how there was a shortage of podiatrists. I felt I'd discovered a niche that I could exploit. Often in life it is beneficial to go against the grain, but sometimes conventional wisdom is there for a reason. I would never advise anyone on the fence between allopathic and podiatric to go podiatric in hindsight. It works out for some, but for so many it does not. HeyBrother had a great post in a different thread mentioning how much podiatry has changed for the worse in the past decade and how there's so much uncertainty about the next decade. Just take the sure bet sometimes. I guarantee you can still function as a podiatrist someday if you wanted to as an MD or DO... but who would do that to themselves? Haha

Welcome friend.

 

[DYK343]

I'm sure the fact I went through undergrad and grad with no debt, have a car paid off, Had a couple semesters of pod school scholarships to pay for it, and had 650 dollar average rent played a tremendous part in having less than 200k debt.

However, I still think 300k means means the person wasn't as frugal as they could have been at some point.

I don't even buy Christmas presents for family members during podiatry school.

But I was paying way less than 1500 a month on average for living cost of living expenses. Most months were probably closer to 950-ish in total. 650 for rent, 50-60 for wifi, 100 for gas money or so, and very little for food because I just ate rice and canned foods most of the time, or I would use a fast food app and get an entire meal, (minus the drink) for 3 dollars.

For externships, I've only paid gas money and 400 dollars for 1 area to rent the entire year. The rest of the places I either stayed with friends or family for free.

When I say I hate spending money, I mean it.

Sorry Robin but very few people have free undergrad. Some athletes, some ultra scholars, and those whose parents are very wealthy get free undergrad. Its easily 50-100k undergrad 4 year education now. Its pretty easy to be 200-300k in debt after pod school even being frugal. Thats pushing 300-400k adding the two.

You had a great situation. No car debt. No undergrad debt and 1st year pod school tuition paid off. Thats awesome. Keep that up. Youre going to go far in life.

But your comments are not realistic for a lot of applicants straight out of college.

I only know 10-12 people (who claim to be podiatrists) who are generally unsatisfied with their career choice. You can read from them on SDN. Every other DPM I know IRL is happy and doing fine.

I dont think very many SDN posters are unhappy being a DPM. I dont think this is a fair statement.
People are disgruntled with job markets and new schools opening up worsening the job markets.
But most of us are not unhappy being a DPM.
I certainly like my job most days.

 

[HeySister]

Sorry Robin but very few people have free undergrad. Some athletes, some ultra scholars, and those whose parents are very wealthy get free undergrad. Its easily 50-100k undergrad 4 year education now. Its pretty easy to be 200-300k in debt after pod school even being frugal. Thats pushing 300-400k adding the two.

You had a great situation. No car debt. No undergrad debt and 1st year pod school tuition paid off. Thats awesome. Keep that up. Youre going to go far in life.

But your comments are not realistic for a lot of applicants straight out of college.


I dont think very many SDN posters are unhappy being a DPM. I dont think this is a fair statement.
People are disgruntled with job markets and new schools opening up worsening the job markets.
But most of us are not unhappy being a DPM.
I certainly like my job most days.

I love my job I am just paid like a buccees manager. Do a triple as an associate and about $200 hits your account after taxes. If I was paid commiserate to the work and skill I would have no beef.

 

[MoostashPod]

I love my job I am just paid like a buccees manager. Do a triple as an associate and about $200 hits your account after taxes. If I was paid commiserate to the work and skill I would have no beef.

Buc-ee's general manager makes a decent amount of money. No school debt.

Buc-ee's employees make more than most Texas teachers and nurses. Here's why.

Buc-ee's employees earn anywhere from $16 an hour to $225,000 a year, which are, for the most part, above industry standards.

www.expressnews.com

 

[SoleScholar]

Buc-ee's general manager makes a decent amount of money. No school debt.

Buc-ee's employees make more than most Texas teachers and nurses. Here's why.

Buc-ee's employees earn anywhere from $16 an hour to $225,000 a year, which are, for the most part, above industry standards.

www.expressnews.com

You guys are talking about this job though like it's easy to get and easy work.
It's not.
I could compare myself to the president of the biggest healthcare corp in my state, he only has a bachelor's degree and he makes 2 million a year, more than any employed doctor in the country.
You can always compare like this and it's just silly. Go be a Buc-ee's manager then if it's that great and easy.

 

[MoostashPod]

You guys are talking about this job though like it's easy to get and easy work.
It's not.
I could compare myself to the president of the biggest healthcare corp in my state, he only has a bachelor's degree and he makes 2 million a year, more than any employed doctor in the country.
You can always compare like this and it's just silly. Go be a Buc-ee's manager then if it's that great and easy.

Silly rabbit. Who says it's easy?

 

[footshazam]

It’s about time to lock this up because clearly the OP isn’t hearing a word you guys are saying… the rose colored glasses are extra thick here… oh well

 

[Feli]

...It really is such a bait and switch. We spend so long learning surgery. I even went to some externships where they literally did clinic for only 1 day a week. The reality is a decent chunk of podiatrists will be completely nonsurgical, probably half will do a couple cases a week like me, and only a very small percentage will be spending a quarter or more of their time in the OR...

Yes, perfect eval.

This is why shadowing is so important.
Most podiatrists do relatively little surgery.
I think that misconception leads to a lot of dissatisfaction.

I am same in that my case volume and diversity are above average for a DPM, yet I do 1 day per week (usually just a half day). That is above average... the rest is office visits and paperwork. It is absolutely not what the pod school picture or residency (maybe even fellowship!) sets people up for.

If anything, we should probably be spending more time on what will likely be 80% of our job time (derm issues, ingrowns, DME and non-op tx for tendonitis and fasciitis)... not saying, "where should I do a fellowship to learn more surgery?"

It’s about time to lock this up because clearly the OP isn’t hearing a word you guys are saying… the rose colored glasses are extra thick here… oh well

Yes. Nearly all pre-pod have the shine in their eye.

MD/DO and other paths are saying, "no, we don't want you. Sorry."
Podiatry swoops in and says "YES... with scholarship and surgery! FTW!!! Sign here and here and here."
...there is just no amount of logic that will dissuade most (newly converted) pre-pods. They are goo-goo-ga-ga, like most of us were at one time.

@ChartingChad hit it really well. Great post.

In the end, people will go to pod school with less than a week or month of thinking. Tale as old as time.

The best that can really be hoped for is that maybe they minimize debt, do well in school, get the best training available since DPM training is hugely variable, and that they understand what the career is actually like (day to day work, income, job options and transferrability, saturation, etc). That means shadowing, asking questions, being aware of the many truly wretched "accredited" podiatry residencies, being aware of the fellowship trend and how it typically just compounds debt, being aware of how saturated podiatry is and how rare good-paying jobs are in comparison to most MD/DO specialties.

 

[air bud]

Sir I was operating 5 days a week in residency. I am beyond furious that my career has not been this exact model.

 

[air bud]

If you've concluded you're going to apply, then everything else is a moot point.

You come off as young an naive. That's not an insult. Nearly everyone is young and naive once.

You talk about how you are very entrepreneurial and enjoy doing business. What businesses have you built? What were your sales last year? Navigating the healthcare system is different than selling candy in high school, flipping items on ebay, or enjoying watching Shark Tank.

A major problem with podiatry is it is a a combination of saturation and being not truly needed for a hospital or clinic to function, worsening the job market. Can a hospital function with radiologist? No. Anesthesiologist? No. General surgery? No. The list goes on an on. Can a hospital function without a podiatrist? You betcha, and most do. Does it seem wise to specialize in the field that is both saturated and not needed?

You are trading desirability now for lack of desirability later. It feels pretty good getting an instant acceptance and scholarship to every podiatry school. Everyone wants you and you don't have to deal with all the BS of applying to get a MD (and there is a lot). But then you graduate residency, and now you're faced with the opposite situation -- no one really needs you or wants you, at least not enough to give you a great job. Going the MD route is the opposite experience -- no one wants you at first (schools could care less if you apply or not, they have countless apps), but EVERYONE wants you after you graduate. Seems better to me to go the route that results in you being desirable for the rest of your life, even if you are undesirable now.

I hope that helps and good luck on whatever you decide, though it seems you've made up your mind. No one here knows you but you are getting a lot of good advice.

Gold. It is true. Major metro areas like Dallas/Houston....huge hospitals...they have no need for their own employed podiatrists due to a combination of Ortho wanting it/not wanting podiatry (not being desired) but also have an unlimited supply of local pods who will take free call on insured patients to do the stuff they don't want (oversaturated). It is beyond crazy.

I have developed podiatry programs at multiple rural hospitals and we make a huge difference....but in the big picture they were doing ok before us. I have contacted many many hospitals since without podiatry and they have no interest in having their own....baffling sometimes but just like you can't convince the head cheerleader you will make a great loyal boyfriend you can't convince the CEO of your value to the community and hospital.

edit - uninsured lol. insured....thats crazy talk.