Please, please, please don't go to NYU

[LFA20]

Or join the military and suffer a little for 4 years

---

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[predent2151]

Just going to venture that you've never paid down student loans and likely never held a full time job.

Big Hoss

You venture wrong bud. Have been a mechanic for 2 years during undergrad and a financial advisor for a year. So I definitely think I have a little knowledge of the situation. I have paid off about half of my undergraduate education which I am proud of, seeing as though I've received absolutely no help. OP is on a forum, meant for those pursuing a profession, discouraging said profession. Those that have spent time around dentistry should have a handle on what they're getting in to.


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[Craig_Sherwood234]

You venture wrong bud. Have been a mechanic for 2 years during undergrad and a financial advisor for a year. So I definitely think I have a little knowledge of the situation. I have paid off about half of my undergraduate education which I am proud of, seeing as though I've received absolutely no help. OP is on a forum, meant for those pursuing a profession, discouraging said profession. Those that have spent time around dentistry should have a handle on what they're getting in to.


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Lmao

 

[predent2151]

No one is going to use SDN as the primary source of learning about their "financial education." There's not a problem with constructive criticism of the field. However there isn't a need to put a damper on those that are really excited about pursing the profession.


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[Big Time Hoosier]

OP is on a forum, meant for those pursuing a profession, discouraging said profession.

He's discouraging people from taking on crippling levels of student loans. I was doing the very same thing before he even showed up on SDN. Some schools are seriously getting out of control in their COA. Unfortunately, for the vast majority of pre-professional students, the financing of their education is a mere afterthought. It doesn't become a reality until that 6 month grace period ends after graduation. By then, it's too late to turn back the clock.

Big Hoss

 

[predent2151]

I agree the tuition is outrageous. For some schools down right ridiculous, however, my point is that those that are serious about the profession know about the downsides. Further discouragement of the field should be kept away from those pursuing it!


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[Big Time Hoosier]

my point is that those that are serious about the profession know about the downsides

I don't think I can agree with this.

Big Hoss

 

[jadedphysiotherapist]

No one is going to use SDN as the primary source of learning about their "financial education." There's not a problem with constructive criticism of the field. However there isn't a need to put a damper on those that are really excited about pursing the profession.


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Actually many are.

 

[predent2151]

Being new to a social media website does not make my opinion irrelevant. I strongly doubt that anyone uses SDN as their primary source for their financial decisions. Yes, I agree it is full of useful information. However, it's not the holy grail of pre-professional information. It's a forum. Everything should be taken with a grain of salt


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[DMikes]

 

[wengerout]

Life is expensive. Go to the cheapest school you get into! I promise you'll thank me afterwards.

Big Hoss

I'm assuming when discussing NYU we can assume in almost all cases they didn't get into anywhere significantly cheaper.

 

[DMDDDSHopeful]

There are worst things in life than someone committing to an expensive education for a guaranteed career with the lowest unemployment rate out of any job out there. I, personally, would never tell someone NOT to go to NYU and then feel guilty 10 years down the line they became unemployed and poor with a family to feed. Why?

Being poor is knowing exactly how much everything costs.

Being poor is having to keep buying $800 cars because they’re what you can afford, and then having the cars break down on you, because there’s not an $800 car in America that’s worth a damn.

Being poor is hoping the toothache goes away.

Being poor is Goodwill underwear.

Being poor is thinking $8 an hour is a really good deal.

Being poor is relying on people who don’t give a damn about you.

Being poor is an overnight shift under florescent lights.

Being poor is finding the letter your mom wrote to your dad, begging him for the child support.

Being poor is a bathtub you have to empty into the toilet.

Being poor is knowing you work as hard as anyone, anywhere.

Being poor is people surprised to discover you’re not actually stupid.

Being poor is people surprised to discover you’re not actually lazy.

Being poor is never buying anything someone else hasn’t bought first.

Being poor is picking the 10 cent ramen instead of the 12 cent ramen because that’s two extra packages for every dollar.

Being poor is people who have never been poor wondering why you choose to be so.

Being poor is knowing how hard it is to stop being poor.

Being poor is seeing how few options you have.

So if you have an option to become a dentist in America at NYU ....

 

[Winner32]

um, actually many are.....

You're very new here.

He's been here 2 more months than you..

 

[allantois]

Hrsa. Oops my bad I read this thing like 4 months ago. the surplus is only* 20k not 50k by 2025 not 2022. That is for NPs. I get those 2 mixed up all the time.

https://bhw.hrsa.gov/sites/default/...rimary-care-national-projections2013-2025.pdf

Doesn't seem all rainbows and sunshine in the future when you consider that 79 PA schools have opened within what? 7 years?

Derailing the conversation. I do think that BLS is credible. I don't understand their analysis of primary care. NPs and PAs are very much interchangeable, I don't see why they would forecast them separately. It's also an analysis of just primary care, but most PAs and NPs do not even work in primary care. Anyways, I still think that keeping one's debt low is more important in light of difficult supply-demand forecasting.

If people believe in the free market, then perhaps they should treat the cost of education as any other good - which may very well be overpriced in some circumstances.

If you have a Bio degree, don't sell yourself short. You can go into any healthcare field.

 

[GypsyHummus]

If someone can get into dental school, they can get into pharmacy or podiatry school, both which pay six figures and both which are 200k less.

A poor person knows the value of a dollar and won't pick dentistry at an expensive school.

Plus, there is the option of PA, although it's harder to get into than pharmacy or pod.

There are plenty of ways for poor people to become wealthy in this country. Believe me, I'm one of those who thought 8$ and hour was a good deal, imagine my excitement when I learned my new job paid 9$/hour.

There are worst things in life than someone committing to an expensive education for a guaranteed career with the lowest unemployment rate out of any job out there. I, personally, would never tell someone NOT to go to NYU and then feel guilty 10 years down the line they became unemployed and poor with a family to feed. Why?

Being poor is knowing exactly how much everything costs.

Being poor is having to keep buying $800 cars because they’re what you can afford, and then having the cars break down on you, because there’s not an $800 car in America that’s worth a damn.

Being poor is hoping the toothache goes away.

Being poor is Goodwill underwear.

Being poor is thinking $8 an hour is a really good deal.

Being poor is relying on people who don’t give a damn about you.

Being poor is an overnight shift under florescent lights.

Being poor is finding the letter your mom wrote to your dad, begging him for the child support.

Being poor is a bathtub you have to empty into the toilet.

Being poor is knowing you work as hard as anyone, anywhere.

Being poor is people surprised to discover you’re not actually stupid.

Being poor is people surprised to discover you’re not actually lazy.

Being poor is never buying anything someone else hasn’t bought first.

Being poor is picking the 10 cent ramen instead of the 12 cent ramen because that’s two extra packages for every dollar.

Being poor is people who have never been poor wondering why you choose to be so.

Being poor is knowing how hard it is to stop being poor.

Being poor is seeing how few options you have.

So if you have an option to become a dentist in America at NYU ....

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

If you find yourself looking at a single acceptance and it happens to be to a crazy expensive dental school, think long and hard about the HPSP and NHSC scholarships. Yes, you may be practicing where you have zero desire to be long term, but it's only four years. The alternative is having to come up with almost $50,000 annually to throw at student loans until you're pushing 50 years old.

Big Hoss

 

[schmoob]

Some of the main reasons many chose dentistry are the autonomy, entrepreneurial opportunity, and a high earning potential. However, it is up to the student/dentist to gain the competitive edge. A DDS/DMD alone is not an indicator to guaranteed wealth. No one will do it for you.

After graduating, it is up to the dentist to maximize on those opportunities. Unfortunately, most have been shielded by academia their whole lives, so they know absolutely nothing about the autonomy and entrepreneurship they so desired. They have also done nothing to learn about it when they had many opportunities, because they did not take the initiative.

And, in classic millennial fashion, the blame begins and responsibility is never acknowledged. "It's the schools fault." "It's the governments fault." But it's never "my fault."

So there are 2 things to consider:
-These schools that are oh so terrible and unethical, maybe you can learn from them. The demand is there, and supply of seats still exist - so they can charge what they want. If they were so bad, people wouldn't apply.

-It's not the governments fault. In fact, I see no reason to cap dental school loan limits. Doing so would be a detriment to the field. Why? Because the availability of these funds maintain the ability for the admissions process to remain purely merit-based. Do not underestimate the number of dental students who do not need to take loans. The paradigm will shift to applicants from the most qualified, to restricting admission to only those who can afford it.
"But surely there can't be THAT many students who can meet bare minimum admission requirements AND afford dental school at these prices!" Maybe, maybe not. If not, schools will have NO CHOICE but to lower tuition, right? Wrong again. Do you have ANY idea how competitive it is for international students to get a seat in dental school? Don't forget, these applicants do not qualify for Federal loans, so they are paying cash-money.
So by this point, admissions standards have dropped, international enrollment has jumped, and tuition prices have not dropped; but the thousands of academically qualified U.S. Applicants HAVE dropped. So in considering this scenario, is it still the governments fault? It's business. You can either fight it, or you can adapt.

Now with all of this mind, it is up to YOU to make smart professional moves. Obviously a lower cost school is an amazing start, but if that's not an option it does not mean you are doomed. You learn, read, prepare, and understand how to become financially successful. ABANDON THIS DEFEATIST ATTITUDE IF YOU WANT TO SUCCEED. Come up with a strategy, have a plan, and get ready to play the long game.

 

[Craig_Sherwood234]

If you find yourself looking at a single acceptance and it happens to be to a crazy expensive dental school, think long and hard about the HPSP and NHSC scholarships. Yes, you may be practicing where you have zero desire to be long term, but it's only four years. The alternative is having to come up with almost $50,000 annually to throw at student loans until you're pushing 50 years old.

Big Hoss

I wouldn't count on these as an option per say, and I think it would be misleading to pre-dents if that is your intention. Imagine taking only the best out of the pool of all the dental school acceptees in the country and then comparing these applications to these scholarships; it is not realistic to simply view this avenue as an out. Unless one graduated with a 3.9/21+, then one isn't a shoe-in anywhere. Couple this with the fact that most of the dentists I am personally close with came from the last generation when the tuition was significantly lower, even from private schools. A single acceptance to an overtly overpriced dental school is how the bait gets taken by the fish.

 

[SmileItsLife]

I wouldn't count on these as an option per say, and I think it would be misleading to pre-dents if that is your intention. Imagine taking only the best out of the pool of all the dental school acceptees in the country and then comparing these applications to these scholarships; it is not realistic to simply view this avenue as an out. Unless one graduated with a 3.9/21+, then one isn't a shoe-in anywhere. Couple this with the fact that most of the dentists I am personally close with came from the last generation when the tuition was significantly lower, even from private schools. A single acceptance to an overtly overpriced dental school is how the bait gets taken by the fish.

I get what your saying, but.....

They will qualify for NHSC loan repayment when they graduate though.... it's not as good as no debt, but it is an extra tax-free 25k a year they can push out guaranteed to their student loans.

Or if the join the program during their last year of DS and have 40k a year guaranteed tax-free income to student loans. Of course those both require a commitment to work in place with need for a few years, but I believe that most going into dentistry are concerned about the dental shortages, so they'll do it.

I, of course, plan on trying to get into my state school (if possible), but I'll still do this either way. That's only like 1/3 of my plan.....

This is why I'm not too concerned about what SLP says. I have a plan in place with contingency plans.

 

[SmileItsLife]

Some of the main reasons many chose dentistry are the autonomy, entrepreneurial opportunity, and a high earning potential. However, it is up to the student/dentist to gain the competitive edge. A DDS/DMD alone is not an indicator to guaranteed wealth. No one will do it for you.

After graduating, it is up to the dentist to maximize on those opportunities. Unfortunately, most have been shielded by academia their whole lives, so they know absolutely nothing about the autonomy and entrepreneurship they so desired. They have also done nothing to learn about it when they had many opportunities, because they did not take the initiative.

And, in classic millennial fashion, the blame begins and responsibility is never acknowledged. "It's the schools fault." "It's the governments fault." But it's never "my fault."

So there are 2 things to consider:
-These schools that are oh so terrible and unethical, maybe you can learn from them. The demand is there, and supply of seats still exist - so they can charge what they want. If they were so bad, people wouldn't apply.

-It's not the governments fault. In fact, I see no reason to cap dental school loan limits. Doing so would be a detriment to the field. Why? Because the availability of these funds maintain the ability for the admissions process to remain purely merit-based. Do not underestimate the number of dental students who do not need to take loans. The paradigm will shift to applicants from the most qualified, to restricting admission to only those who can afford it.
"But surely there can't be THAT many students who can meet bare minimum admission requirements AND afford dental school at these prices!" Maybe, maybe not. If not, schools will have NO CHOICE but to lower tuition, right? Wrong again. Do you have ANY idea how competitive it is for international students to get a seat in dental school? Don't forget, these applicants do not qualify for Federal loans, so they are paying cash-money.
So by this point, admissions standards have dropped, international enrollment has jumped, and tuition prices have not dropped; but the thousands of academically qualified U.S. Applicants HAVE dropped. So in considering this scenario, is it still the governments fault? It's business. You can either fight it, or you can adapt.

Now with all of this mind, it is up to YOU to make smart professional moves. Obviously a lower cost school is an amazing start, but if that's not an option it does not mean you are doomed. You learn, read, prepare, and understand how to become financially successful. ABANDON THIS DEFEATIST ATTITUDE IF YOU WANT TO SUCCEED. Come up with a strategy, have a plan, and get ready to play the long game.

#truth

 

[Craig_Sherwood234]

I get what your saying, but.....

They will qualify for NHSC loan repayment when they graduate though.... it's not as good as no debt, but it is an extra tax-free 25k a year they can push out guaranteed to their student loans.

Or if the join the program during their last year of DS and have 40k a year guaranteed tax-free income to student loans. Of course those both require a commitment to work in place with need for a few years, but I believe that most going into dentistry are concerned about the dental shortages, so they'll do it.

I, of course, plan on trying to get into my state school (if possible), but I'll still do this either way. That's only like 1/3 of my plan.....

This is why I'm not too concerned about what SLP says. I have a plan in place with contingency plans.

Loan repayment via the NHSC doesn't even make a dent to those numbers--that's why you don't see recent graduates all vying for it. There is no "loan repayment" in this context. Don't mislead people. They only cover it to a certain extent and the loans aren't forgiven with respect to the magnitude in which one will carry in student loan debt.

 

[allantois]

You can't just count on NHSC. They get thousands of applicants for ~200 awards, which include MD/DMD/PA/NP students.

You are just going to have to be an outlier dentist to pay off average school debt.

And if going military - might as well do medicine. It's the same years of commitment.

 

[SmileItsLife]

Loan repayment via the NHSC doesn't even make a dent to those numbers--that's why you don't see recent graduates all vying for it. There is no "loan repayment" in this context. Don't mislead people. They only cover it to a certain extent and the loans aren't forgiven with respect to the magnitude in which one will carry in student loan debt.

I never claimed that this method would help you get out of debt in four years just like those scholarships do, but it does help. The program is CALLED "loan repayment" because they give you untaxed money to repay your educational loans in exchange for working in place that many people wouldn't have otherwise. I'm sorry if the name of the program was misleading to anyone; I didn't make the name.

Anyways, I CLEARLY stated afterwards, you receive a couple thousands dollars of untaxed dollars to your loans every month. That was the same thing your final sentence said.

And the program does help make a dent. It at least pays off the interest for that year, so you can pay off twice the principle you would have been able to without the loan. Furthermore, if you were already planning to work in rural America you've got your already higher than average income plus this program.

 

[wengerout]

If someone can get into dental school, they can get into pharmacy or podiatry school, both which pay six figures and both which are 200k less.

A poor person knows the value of a dollar and won't pick dentistry at an expensive school.

Plus, there is the option of PA, although it's harder to get into than pharmacy or pod.

There are plenty of ways for poor people to become wealthy in this country. Believe me, I'm one of those who thought 8$ and hour was a good deal, imagine my excitement when I learned my new job paid 9$/hour.

If you go to the Pharmacy board right now you'll see a bunch of Pharmacist saying not to become pharmacist with similar dooms day talk due to saturation and the like.

This is not including the fact that Pharmacy and Dentistry are pretty different. Personally, I would have left healthcare all together before doing Pharmacy.


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[wengerout]

Some of the main reasons many chose dentistry are the autonomy, entrepreneurial opportunity, and a high earning potential. However, it is up to the student/dentist to gain the competitive edge. A DDS/DMD alone is not an indicator to guaranteed wealth. No one will do it for you.

After graduating, it is up to the dentist to maximize on those opportunities. Unfortunately, most have been shielded by academia their whole lives, so they know absolutely nothing about the autonomy and entrepreneurship they so desired. They have also done nothing to learn about it when they had many opportunities, because they did not take the initiative.

And, in classic millennial fashion, the blame begins and responsibility is never acknowledged. "It's the schools fault." "It's the governments fault." But it's never "my fault."

So there are 2 things to consider:
-These schools that are oh so terrible and unethical, maybe you can learn from them. The demand is there, and supply of seats still exist - so they can charge what they want. If they were so bad, people wouldn't apply.

-It's not the governments fault. In fact, I see no reason to cap dental school loan limits. Doing so would be a detriment to the field. Why? Because the availability of these funds maintain the ability for the admissions process to remain purely merit-based. Do not underestimate the number of dental students who do not need to take loans. The paradigm will shift to applicants from the most qualified, to restricting admission to only those who can afford it.
"But surely there can't be THAT many students who can meet bare minimum admission requirements AND afford dental school at these prices!" Maybe, maybe not. If not, schools will have NO CHOICE but to lower tuition, right? Wrong again. Do you have ANY idea how competitive it is for international students to get a seat in dental school? Don't forget, these applicants do not qualify for Federal loans, so they are paying cash-money.
So by this point, admissions standards have dropped, international enrollment has jumped, and tuition prices have not dropped; but the thousands of academically qualified U.S. Applicants HAVE dropped. So in considering this scenario, is it still the governments fault? It's business. You can either fight it, or you can adapt.

Now with all of this mind, it is up to YOU to make smart professional moves. Obviously a lower cost school is an amazing start, but if that's not an option it does not mean you are doomed. You learn, read, prepare, and understand how to become financially successful. ABANDON THIS DEFEATIST ATTITUDE IF YOU WANT TO SUCCEED. Come up with a strategy, have a plan, and get ready to play the long game.

You make some good points although a fair amount of schools don't accept international students.

Also, 80% of students right now going to dental school had at least 100k in debt. I'm slightly skeptical that the amount of applicants with families rich enough to shell out 400k in cash is high enough to substantiate the applicant pool, but I haven't deeply looked into the data.


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[super frank]

I actually laugh when people suggest pharmacy...

 

[WCS_Jeff]

Curious why OP only targeted NYU. There are plenty of schools that are nearly as expensive (e.g. USC).

 

[super frank]

Curious why OP only targeted NYU. There are plenty of schools that are nearly as expensive (e.g. USC).

Read through the thread and you'll find the answer to your question.

 

[wengerout]

I actually laugh when people suggest pharmacy...

Yeah I don't get how dental applicants would want to switch to Pharmacy unless you're purely doing Dentistry for the money. They couldn't be more different.

I shadowed a pharmacist once early on in my college career. Only took me 15 minutes to know it wasn't for me.


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[Dentistry's lover]

Worth Listening to

 

[wengerout]

I wouldn't count on these as an option per say, and I think it would be misleading to pre-dents if that is your intention. Imagine taking only the best out of the pool of all the dental school acceptees in the country and then comparing these applications to these scholarships; it is not realistic to simply view this avenue as an out. Unless one graduated with a 3.9/21+, then one isn't a shoe-in anywhere. Couple this with the fact that most of the dentists I am personally close with came from the last generation when the tuition was significantly lower, even from private schools. A single acceptance to an overtly overpriced dental school is how the bait gets taken by the fish.

NHSC you're right but HPSP isn't THAT hard to get. At least in my area (Southeast US) our recruiter was trying to convince people to apply for the program with guarantees of getting it if they submitted before a certain date (and his results back up his talk). I'm sure it's not like this every where but HPSP seems much easier to get than NHSC to me.


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[wengerout]

You can't just count on NHSC. They get thousands of applicants for ~200 awards, which include MD/DMD/PA/NP students.

You are just going to have to be an outlier dentist to pay off average school debt.

And if going military - might as well do medicine. It's the same years of commitment.

What if you like dentistry more than medicine?


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[caffeine jitters]

NHSC you're right but HPSP isn't THAT hard to get. At least in my area (Southeast US) our recruiter was trying to convince people to apply for the program with guarantees of getting it if they submitted before a certain date (and his results back up his talk). I'm sure it's not like this every where but HPSP seems much easier to get than NHSC to me.


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Here's to hoping you're right.... *laughs then starts sobbing*

 

[WCS_Jeff]

Read through the thread and you'll find the answer to your question.

So his main issue is with transparency? If you're smart enough to get into dental school, imo you should be smart enough to do your own research on the costs, loan repayment options, and ability to pay it off within 10-20 years. I had to do it when I was a pre-dent and had to make decisions on where to go to school.

Most people going to NYU or other expensive private schools ARE in fact getting help from their family. That's why the average debt of their grads is lower than the entire cost of attendance. At least that was what I gathered at my Tufts interview. So to what OP said: "Their financial aid resources page's top tip is that parents should help with the accruing interest. Yeah real easy to do on freaking $30,000 a year." Well if that is not your situation, then that is probably not the school for you.

 

[schmoob]

You make some good points although a fair amount of schools don't accept international students.

Also, 80% of students right now going to dental school had at least 100k in debt. I'm slightly skeptical that the amount of applicants with families rich enough to shell out 400k in cash is high enough to substantiate the applicant pool, but I haven't deeply looked into the data.


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True. But if financing becomes a problem, I foresee schools opening up admissions to international applicants with the means to pay before they would start reducing COA.

And the reason that you have the percentage you quoted is because those students were admitted based on academic merit, not financial means. If govt starts capping the loans available, many highly qualified students would not be able to attend because they simply cannot afford it. Applicants with lower stats but richer parents would be the ones matriculating.
It's all speculation of course, but that's my prediction if loans get capped. I would also predict that medical school admissions would become MUCH more competitive to get into.

 

[super frank]

Worth Listening to

Great, great stuff. Just finished the whole podcast. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

There are worst things in life than someone committing to an expensive education for a guaranteed career with the lowest unemployment rate out of any job out there. I, personally, would never tell someone NOT to go to NYU and then feel guilty 10 years down the line they became unemployed and poor with a family to feed. Why?

Being poor is knowing exactly how much everything costs.

Being poor is having to keep buying $800 cars because they’re what you can afford, and then having the cars break down on you, because there’s not an $800 car in America that’s worth a damn.

Being poor is hoping the toothache goes away.

Being poor is Goodwill underwear.

Being poor is thinking $8 an hour is a really good deal.

Being poor is relying on people who don’t give a damn about you.

Being poor is an overnight shift under florescent lights.

Being poor is finding the letter your mom wrote to your dad, begging him for the child support.

Being poor is a bathtub you have to empty into the toilet.

Being poor is knowing you work as hard as anyone, anywhere.

Being poor is people surprised to discover you’re not actually stupid.

Being poor is people surprised to discover you’re not actually lazy.

Being poor is never buying anything someone else hasn’t bought first.

Being poor is picking the 10 cent ramen instead of the 12 cent ramen because that’s two extra packages for every dollar.

Being poor is people who have never been poor wondering why you choose to be so.

Being poor is knowing how hard it is to stop being poor.

Being poor is seeing how few options you have.

So if you have an option to become a dentist in America at NYU ....

I knew a guy who shopped mostly at Goodwill, always clipped coupons, drove a $2000 car, and lived in a $150,000 house, yet had the net worth of 20 dentists.

You make some good points, but if you read the "Millionaire Next Door" you see a lot of high income professionals fall into the low net worth category primarily because of the desire to live in a large home in an affluent neighborhood, drive new cars, shop at high end places, etc.

You might have a higher income going to NYU and becoming a dentist, but your net worth long term will almost certainly be better if you go the 50k post college job route and don't take out debt. If you're going in state and have a great plan in place to become an owner in an unsaturated area? All bets are off you could actually blow it out of the water.

In your experience, you stated that general dentists gross about 120-130K/year. How long does it take before the dentists are making in the 200K+ range? 170K?

120K is roughly 80K after taxes, which is something like 6.5K/month. If a dentist could make a take home income of 100K/year (which is something like 155K/year) that is roughly about 8.3K per month. If you like off of 2K/year and throw 6.3K/month at the loan, that would equal somewhere around the ballpark of 75K/year in repayment.

75K repayment (X) 10 years= 750K. That should cover the loan. So in reality, if a dentist is willing to live at a lifestyle of 2k/month (which is what I do currently, I would say I'm fine, not wealthy by any means, but fine) for 10 years before he has paid off his debt. Doesn't seem too bad.

The average dentist owner comp is around $180k. That's in line with what I've seen, though there's a big standard deviation with a distribution that's skewed right. The vast majority make in that 150k to 200k range 10 years out. Once the practice loan is paid off, that might be like 200k-250k for the top quarter of the owner incomes.

Very rarely do you see 300k+. In the cases where it happens, almost always it's ppl that graduated from in state schools with relatively modest debt who set up shop in an underserved area.

Bc of the way the math works forgiveness and optimizing PAYE / REPAYE right now is the only way to go if you graduate NYU unless there's massive income in the household. That could change for all loans post fall 2018 though.

 

[wengerout]

Here's to hoping you're right.... *laughs then starts sobbing*

It's a shame that's the best response you could come up with.

I'm not applying for HPSP as I do not need it, but considering I've seen several students in our Pre-Dental society get HPSP from said recruiter, I think the results speak for themselves.


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[Student Loan Planner]

So his main issue is with transparency? If you're smart enough to get into dental school, imo you should be smart enough to do your own research on the costs, loan repayment options, and ability to pay it off within 10-20 years. I had to do it when I was a pre-dent and had to make decisions on where to go to school.

Most people going to NYU or other expensive private schools ARE in fact getting help from their family. That's why the average debt of their grads is lower than the entire cost of attendance. At least that was what I gathered at my Tufts interview. So to what OP said: "Their financial aid resources page's top tip is that parents should help with the accruing interest. Yeah real easy to do on freaking $30,000 a year." Well if that is not your situation, then that is probably not the school for you.

Main issue is that I've heard from multiple sources that the administration and financial aid dept at NYU has given extremely misleading information to prospective applicants that would color their decision to attend the school.

In other words if some professor sits across the table from you and tells you that you'll pay back the loans in 7 years (which is an actual example that someone told me happened to them), then in my opinion the institution is deliberately trying to perpetuate a myth in order to boost the revenue, rankings, and attendance of their program.

In contrast, USC at least makes an effort from what I've heard to tell prospective students that they'll need to rely on income driven repayment programs and that the education is expensive. I've never heard a reader or client tell me that USC has tried to make an outrageously ridiculous statement. I've heard this over and over about NYU in particular. So that's why I picked them.

I want to be clear though if your dream is to be a dentist and your projected loan burden is below 350k and you've got a solid plan on becoming a practice owner and don't have to live in the East or West Coastal cities or Chicago to be happy then please go to dental school, enjoy it, listen to podcasts and have a good career bc you'll be ok.

 

[caffeine jitters]

It's a shame that's the best response you could come up with.

I'm not applying for HPSP as I do not need it, but considering I've seen several students in our Pre-Dental society get HPSP from said recruiter, I think the results speak for themselves.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Shame? I was trying to be funny.. I'm applying for HPSP and I'm just saying I would really like to get it. The thought of being 200k-400k in debt makes me sick.

 

[Ollivander]

You are 100% correct. People who expect to work 32hrs/week and not try and take risks will be impacted the most by high debt.

Like you said, we got to be grinding and trying to make money. Yes we are health providers but like this thread 100% implies, we got to make a dollar some way. So we have to market ourselves and compete for patients.

650k is a lot, but very manageable with work ethic and great money management.

Threads like this shouldn't scare anyone just make them aware of what they are getting into. However, this thread is trying to tell people of dental school costs too much, go find a different profession. People follow your heart and with good ethic, the debt will be trivial.

You're making 650K out to be a walk in the park. I feel as though a large portion of this sub-forum just sees these numbers being spewed out so much that they begin to desensitize themselves into how much that really is. 650K is going to take you well over a decade to pay back unless you just get really lucky (because luck does play into it) and somehow find a great associate job starting out that pays in the top 10% of associates, get a great deal on a practice to buy out that's in an optimal location, and have a heavy inflow of patients early on in your career. The odds of those things happening are very slim. You'd be in the top 5-10% of all dentists in that scenario. I'm sure most here are very confident people and are betting on themselves to do big things after their schooling, but it's just not realistic to think you're going to be able to pay off that loan in less than 10 years, and you're going to be living very menial while doing so. Be careful deluding students that are freshmen, sophomores, or even in high school that you can just take on half a million dollars plus and pay it back with ease just because you're a dentist because it's far from what reality has in store.

I feel like this student loan guy posts here to instill fear in people with large debt, so they reach out to him for help and he can recruit them as clients. Is having a lot of debt ideal? No, but I'd rather be working a job I enjoy for the rest of my life instead of kissing ass and doing grunt work to move up in the business world

Again, every time I pop on SDN this is the line of thinking a large portion of this sub has. I feel like a decade from now the people with this mindset are the people who are going to be kicking themselves because they're still in mounds of debt that they're going to be paying off while the best years of their life passes them by. To each their own though.

How about pharmacy vs dental? Now the better deal seems like pharmacy. Or optometry? Still dental.

Pharmacy is in a pretty dark place at the moment. Saturation is the biggest issue at the moment with a crippling job market. The salaries are still alright if you can land a job, but those are next in line to be cut. I wouldn't be surprised if in a decade an average pharmacist pulls 80K/year in retail instead of 115-125K.

I think this absurdity with dental school costs comes from naive pre-dents entering grad school never really working a day in their life and having no idea how much loans they are taking on, and how hard it is to make money in the real world, not in their fantasy dental land.

This is exactly where it comes from.

Where did you get that forecast from? Sure there are a lot of schools, but their average class size is 40 students. There are only 7000 people graduating PA school every year, compare that to 22000 NPs. I also don't think that oversaturation is just going to hit out of nowhere. So far, unemployment rates are very very low for both NPs and PAs, in fact unheard of. The biggest issue isn't even saturation, but debt low. If you have minimal debt, you can always get out and move on to something else. If you are in debt up to your eyeballs, good luck getting out.

To be honest I myself am worried about mid-level saturation, however it's not there yet and probably won't be until another 5-10 years. Also as you said you're not handcuffing yourself to a massive debt burden that you won't be able to pay back. PA and NP school is much more reasonable in price and can be paid off more quickly in comparison to an OOS or private dental school. That means if you need to move on to another profession due to a bad economy/job market then you're able to. Whereas with dentistry what else are you going to do other than dentistry that's going to be able to pay off half a million dollars?

Just shut up and let those going into dentistry be excited about it. Especially for pre-dents we've all spent years preparing and doing our best to get into a great school we don't need to see the negativity of everything that is dental school. If we're choosing this profession it's because we're passionate about it. Everyone can google tuition prices and figure out how far in debt they're going to be. For the vast majority everything will work out and if you truly love dentistry you'll be happy no matter if you make 100k a year or 400z

That's just the thing. You're so emotionally invested into dentistry because you feel as though you've already put in 4+ years of work during undergrad preparing to apply, taking entrance exams, shadowing, volunteering, doing well in school, etc and you can't turn back regardless of the cost or ROI. That's like buying a stock and watching it plummet but you're not willing to cut your losses because you don't want to realize that you might have made a mistake. The best thing this forum could begin doing is re-evaluating if their decision to attend dental school is still worth it at its price point after you have all your stats or even acceptances/rejections in hand versus when you were in high school or a freshman in college. It's very likely that a lot could have changed since that point, but you've been so caught up with keeping up in the rat race that you haven't really had time to sit down and re-analyze.

 

[deleted696582]

NHSC you're right but HPSP isn't THAT hard to get. At least in my area (Southeast US) our recruiter was trying to convince people to apply for the program with guarantees of getting it if they submitted before a certain date (and his results back up his talk). I'm sure it's not like this every where but HPSP seems much easier to get than NHSC to me.

The recruiter was probably referencing early selection boards. For the Navy you're allowed to apply in October for a November selection board before securing an acceptance to dental school, but only if you have a DAT AA of 22 or higher. I believe this year around seven of us were up for selection in November and everyone got it.

So if someone wanted a guaranteed scholarship, they could do well on the DAT, pass the physical, get some military dentist letters, and apply early. That was my plan at least. After November and December boards things become a little more competitive. The Navy waitlist for the three year scholarship is sitting at around 30 people right now. I believe they gave out around 60 scholarships this year for more than twice the applicants. But HPSP is less competitive than NHSC for sure. Especially if you play your cards right.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

Literally just sitting back and relaxing. Can't wait to graduate (let alone start) and pay this sucker off and live the good life . The rest of SDN can enjoy panicking and living a life of pessimism

 

[LFA20]

Literally just sitting back and relaxing. Can't wait to graduate (let alone start) and pay this sucker off and live the good life . The rest of SDN can enjoy panicking and living a life of pessimism

Unless you decide to specialize down the road...

 

[setdoc7]

Why?

So people can be warned about the literal Ponzi schemes the heads of some professions are perpetuating through their credentialing processes?

Never in US history has social mobility through higher education been so broken than it is now. Literally never.

Kudos to this guy for helping out. We've got another similar person for my profession. In fact they've created a whole new ranking classification to compete against USNEWs that uses debt:income as a new metric for prehealth decision making

You make the assumption that he has actually helped anyone, an easy assumption to make. The seats at all schools are filled, and there are no guarantees of admission to lower tuition schools. Let's face it, anyone who can become a dentist should have the where with all to become a plumber/carpenter/electrician. Lower class tuition, paid training, and licensed individuals make bank. There are alternatives to dental school, no is twisting anyones arm. Oh, and of course there is financial planning too.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

Unless you decide to specialize down the road...

So what if I do?

 

[LFA20]

So what if I do?

it's another 300k at least.. Seeing that you are attending columbia, chances are high..

 

[Alpha Centauri]

it's another 300k at least.. Seeing that you are attending columbia, chances are high..

The increase in income would be well worth it. We'll see at any rate

 

[SmileItsLife]

I don't think that is necessarily true. Some residencies are no tuition+stipend. Plus, you can always moonlight as a gp then.....

it's another 300k at least.. Seeing that you are attending columbia, chances are high..

 

[MaizeGoBlue]

Dentaltown. That's all.