Please, please, please don't go to NYU

[Student Loan Planner]

I'm getting concerned that clients and readers are telling me there's a staggering level of inaccurate statements being thrown around by one of the biggest dental schools out there, NYU.

Here's the truth, if you go to NYU, unless you have parental or spousal assistance or some kind of major scholarship, you will come out owing at least $550,000. I'm actually projecting closer to $620,000 for the class of 2021 because their cost of attendance does not include accrued interest while in school, grad plus origination fees, or tuition increases and cost of living inflation.

So if you go there, your monthly payments when you leave school to pay them back would be like $6000-$7000 a month, or around $80,000 a year. The average starting income of a dentist is somewhere between $120,000-$130,000, so your entire taxable income would have to go to loan payments if you ever hope to pay them back.

Of course you can plan on income driven repayment options to pay less on a present value basis, but why would you make that gamble? Go somewhere in state, or cheaper, or just don't be a dentist.

My alarm bells went off recently when someone told me that an administrator at the college told them that their average NYU dental grad pays back their loan in full within 7 years.

THIS IS ABSOLUTE CRAP if that was actually said. Perhaps that could be true if you average in the people coming out with 0 debt because their families are wealthy, but if you just isolate people who have to finance the education, that statement if it's being made is misleading at best and completely false at worst.

So buyer beware. If you want to go to a reasonable in state school and be a practice owner? Awesome dentistry is a good choice.

If you go to NYU dental, you should have been literally anything else besides becoming a dentist.

Just my two cents. I'm tired of hearing story after story from people who were told by NYU that they'll "pay it back in no time." That's total BS from people who have no clue what they're talking about if it's being said.

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[Craig_Sherwood234]

What about Tufts, OP?

 

[Student Loan Planner]

Same thing, except I haven't been hearing as many blatantly misleading statements coming from their admissions office in the recruiting process

I've heard such extremely ridiculous statements coming from the college that NYU dentists that are my clients have told me (as well as people who've been thinking about going) that I felt like I had to say something.

Their financial aid resources page's top tip is that parents should help with the accruing interest. Yeah real easy to do on freaking $30,000 a year.

USC is expensive too but at least I've heard some transparency in terms of them being honest that you're going to need government repayment programs to manage the tuition you're gonna borrow

 

[Johnwickk]

I spoke to a recent NYU grad and he told me to work for 2-3 years and open up your own practice. Yes you will be in more debt than 650k, but you will pay it off much faster. Is this true?

 

[Craig_Sherwood234]

I spoke to a recent NYU grad and he told me to work for 2-3 years and open up your own practice. Yes you will be in more debt than 650k, but you will pay it off much faster. Is this true?

Lol

 

[Student Loan Planner]

I spoke to a recent NYU grad and he told me to work for 2-3 years and open up your own practice. Yes you will be in more debt than 650k, but you will pay it off much faster. Is this true?

There's literally no way you're paying back $650,000 even as a practice owner unless you move to middle of nowhere Oklahoma and set up a fee only practice right next to an Indian reservation covered by medicaid with insane reimbursement rates AND you qualify for their rural dentist loan forgiveness program.

It's always better to be a practice owner even if you owe gobs of debt. However, that won't make one bit of difference in the ability you'll have to pay it back.

Even if you made $250,000 net, which is above average for the owners I speak with, after taxes that's $150,000 and to pay it back in 10 years that's $80,000, leaving you with $70,000 on which you need to save for retirement, pay for your mortgage, car, expenses, professional fees and dues, etc.

 

[dentalstar100]

One of the reasons I didn't apply to NYU. Is there any other school that costs like NYU?

 

[wizkidz]

^ Also would like to know what other schools are potentially in this same situation. Trying decide which schools OOS to apply to and this will help cut down the list!

 

[Life of Pablo]

Not gonna lie, it's pretty scary to think about being in that much debt.

 

[klownzo]

Even if you made $250,000 net, which is above average for the owners I speak with, after taxes that's $150,000 and to pay it back in 10 years that's $80,000, leaving you with $70,000 on which you need to save for retirement, pay for your mortgage, car, expenses, professional fees and dues, etc.

$70k is actually a decent amount to live off of for a year... including retirement savings. That's way more than most middle class families have to play around with on a yearly basis. No it is not a glamorous lifestyle but that is actually a decent living. I've lived very comfortably on $60k/year post taxes and that includes my student debt payment while paying rent, car loan, and professional fees for my previous career. I'm not going to NYU so I'm not trying to justify it, but with your example, that is a pretty nice life doing something they enjoy. That person finds a spouse/partner and they're golden.

 

[Johnwickk]

I think tufts dental school is a better option if your glued to the NYC area so much

 

[Alpha Centauri]

Even if you made $250,000 net, which is above average for the owners I speak with, after taxes that's $150,000 and to pay it back in 10 years that's $80,000, leaving you with $70,000 on which you need to save for retirement, pay for your mortgage, car, expenses, professional fees and dues, etc.

Dont make 70k post tax sound like it's nothing. Some people need to support families of 5 off of a number like that.

Paying off 650k of debt in 10 years is probably the stupidest thing you can do. I'd much rather stretch the payment to 20 years or at least 15, take home more money, and enjoy life. Who cares if it costs more, you shouldn't have taken 650k in debt in the first place. Unfortunately not many will see this until it's too late

 

[738177]

I think tufts dental school is a better option if your glued to the NYC area so much

Based on? Not grilling you but just curious. The tuition appears to be the same. Whatever money you save from the living cost will probably still leave you with similar financial situation as graduating from NYU.

 

[klownzo]

.

 

[Taba]

Correct me if I'm wrong. I checked Stonybrook dental school (SUNY) coa. It's around 110k for out-state and 80k for in-state. As out-state student it's roughly the same about NYU coa. Tuition for NYU is 85k, the housing alone is estimated 35k, because it's location. I don't see the big difference here. Now I am NYC resident, if I decide to live at home, I can simply save that 35k per year. Again it's not like 50k vs 11k. Don't be so picky on NYU, it's the entire education system is ripped, not even mention the ridiculous loan interest (6.5% or something? Didn't bother to look). You can't even make that much of profit with investment on housing property. Is our government really encouraging us to study and contribute to the society while they making money out of us? I don't know


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[princessdentist]

what about USC

 

[Student Loan Planner]

^ Also would like to know what other schools are potentially in this same situation. Trying decide which schools OOS to apply to and this will help cut down the list!

The worst 10 starting at the highest debt one: Midwestern IL, AT Still, Midwestern AZ, NYU, USC, Penn, Pacific, Missouri ATSU, Loma Linda, and Tufts

I wouldn't go to any of those.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

Correct me if I'm wrong. I checked Stonybrook dental school (SUNY) coa. It's around 110k for out-state and 80k for in-state. As out-state student it's roughly the same about NYU coa. Tuition for NYU is 85k, the housing alone is estimated 35k, because it's location. I don't see the big difference here. Now I am NYC resident, if I decide to live at home, I can simply save that 35k per year. Again it's not like 50k vs 11k. Don't be so picky on NYU, it's the entire education system is ripped, not even mention the ridiculous loan interest (6.5% or something? Didn't bother to look). You can't even make that much of profit with investment on housing property. Is our government really encouraging us to study and contribute to the society while they making money out of us? I don't know


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According to this the 80k estimate for in state includes living expenses, whereas the 80 something for NYU is just for sitting in the classroom

https://dentistry.stonybrookmedicine.edu/sites/default/files/View DDS Cost of Attendance_0.pdf

 

[Student Loan Planner]

what about USC

This is just one guy's opinion, but if your only option to be a dentist is going to a top 10 most expensive school, it just isn't worth it. USC would certainly fit the bill.

Super expensive school in a super expensive area to live in and it's saturated too with dentists practicing

 

[738177]

@Student Loan Planner Do you have experience with medical school students/debt as well?

 

[Student Loan Planner]

@Student Loan Planner Do you have experience with medical school students/debt as well?

Yes I do. I've advised more dentists (~130) vs doctors (~50), but most docs are doing PSLF and have average balances of 250-300k and get out of training making usually as much as owner dentists but as hospital employees.

PSLF loophole being closed down starting for fall 2018 entering class is the latest proposal I've heard from Trump

 

[Its_Me_G]

The worst 10 starting at the highest debt one: Midwestern IL, AT Still, Midwestern AZ, NYU, USC, Penn, Pacific, Missouri ATSU, Loma Linda, and Tufts

I wouldn't go to any of those.

Hi, can you explain why Midwestern IL/AZ and AT Still put you at the highest debt above NYU? I'm just curious because I applied to two of those schools and I want to know what I'm getting myself into if I do end up going to one. Thanks!

 

[predent2151]

The worst 10 starting at the highest debt one: Midwestern IL, AT Still, Midwestern AZ, NYU, USC, Penn, Pacific, Missouri ATSU, Loma Linda, and Tufts

I wouldn't go to any of those.

What about MUSC


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[Alpha Centauri]

Yes I do. I've advised more dentists (~130) vs doctors (~50), but most docs are doing PSLF and have average balances of 250-300k and get out of training making usually as much as owner dentists but as hospital employees.

PSLF loophole being closed down starting for fall 2018 entering class is the latest proposal I've heard from Trump

So for the Class of 2021 we can still be eligible even if the plan is dismantled?

 

[Student Loan Planner]

So for the Class of 2021 we can still be eligible even if the plan is dismantled?

Under the current proposal yes med students in the class of 2021 will get PSLF. Could change though.

What about MUSC
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If you're going there to be a practice owner in a rural town without saturation it'll be doable but not comfortable. You're talking $400,000+

Hi, can you explain why Midwestern IL/AZ and AT Still put you at the highest debt above NYU? I'm just curious because I applied to two of those schools and I want to know what I'm getting myself into if I do end up going to one. Thanks!

Check out the two estimates below. Both worse than NYU, though in practice most of the clients I've worked with have come out with similar amounts so I think NYU understates it

https://www.midwestern.edu/Document...A Forms/2016-17 IL/NEWDENTAL_IL1617 final.pdf

https://www.atsu.edu/pdf/atsu-asdoh-dmd-freshman-budget-2017-18.pdf

 

[CaliDDS1986]

@Student Loan Planner

As a practicing dentist interested in going back to orthodontics residency, should I stay away from the NYU orthodontics residency that costs about 300k total? Do you have any orthodontist clients? Do their increased earnings of being an orthodontist vs a general dentist make it worth it? Thank you

 

[Student Loan Planner]

@Student Loan Planner

As a practicing dentist interested in going back to orthodontics residency, should I stay away from the NYU orthodontics residency that costs about 300k total? Do you have any orthodontist clients? Do their increased earnings of being an orthodontist vs a general dentist make it worth it? Thank you

I've done 3 consults where the borrower had $1 million in student loans. 2 were for NYU orthodontists I believe and they were earning low to mid 200's. So no way. If you love ortho try to do as much as you can as a general dentist or go to a cheaper program.

 

[CaliDDS1986]

I've done 3 consults where the borrower had $1 million in student loans. 2 were for NYU orthodontists I believe and they were earning low to mid 200's. So no way. If you love ortho try to do as much as you can as a general dentist or go to a cheaper program.

Even if I will have the 300k in loans and no left from dental school (paid them already)?

 

[Likkriue]

Correct me if I'm wrong. I checked Stonybrook dental school (SUNY) coa. It's around 110k for out-state and 80k for in-state. As out-state student it's roughly the same about NYU coa. Tuition for NYU is 85k, the housing alone is estimated 35k, because it's location. I don't see the big difference here. Now I am NYC resident, if I decide to live at home, I can simply save that 35k per year. Again it's not like 50k vs 11k. Don't be so picky on NYU, it's the entire education system is ripped, not even mention the ridiculous loan interest (6.5% or something? Didn't bother to look). You can't even make that much of profit with investment on housing property. Is our government really encouraging us to study and contribute to the society while they making money out of us? I don't know


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Your calculations are wrong. NYU is 90k with tuition and fees. And Stony is 82.5k. Unless someone is providing food, clothes and everything else you don't get to wipe off all 30k in living. Next, the 3rd and 4th years are significantly cheaper at stony brook. They cut off 10k each year.

The only thing you wipe off is rent.

If someone else is supplying everything else, then they could supply it for you at stony brook as well can't they?

 

[Auntymarkovnikov]

Why is UOP on that list? What about the fact that you start working a year early and only pay for 3 years of housing as opposed to 4?(assuming you go back home afterwards).

 

[Winner32]

What do you honestly think you'll accomplish from making this thread. At the end of the day whatever warnings you give applicants nyu will still have enough students to fill their class and some whether that floats your boat or not . If nyu is someone's only acceptance what do you want them to do? Give up on dentistry and become an accountant? I don't think anyone will debate with you that the cost is high, we all agree. But you gotta have an alpha mindset and hustle and grind when you graduate and not expect everything to be handed to you

 

[Taba]

Your calculations are wrong. NYU is 90k with tuition and fees. And Stony is 82.5k. Unless someone is providing food, clothes and everything else you don't get to wipe off all 30k in living. Next, the 3rd and 4th years are significantly cheaper at stony brook. They cut off 10k each year.

The only thing you wipe off is rent.

If someone else is supplying everything else, then they could supply it for you at stony brook as well can't they?

Yes, I know the difference between in-state SBU coa and NYU, NYU is definitely more expensive than SBU due to it's location and that it is a private school for in-state student, but it's roughly same for out-state student although I am not sure how long until you can considered to pay in-state tuition for SBU. The point I am trying to make here is that not everyone stand at top batch of applicant, so not all of the applicant will get into a cheaper state school. One will make their choice depends on their own situation, for instance if someone was accepted to NYU and want to decline that offer just because they want get into a cheaper state school is pretty unfavorable. The amount of money they have saved is about the same as one year of average salary they could have earned if not delaying one more cycle. Moreover, telling people not to apply for certain school just because they are expensive than in-state school but not for out-state student will only decrease each applicant's chance to become a dentist, which I think most state will have more applicants than in-state acceptance. In the end, I disagree with OP by pointing out certain school and telling people not to go there (I don't know what beef you got with NYU that you need title this thread like this). I admit those school listed are more expensive, but it's not like they doubled the price and they shouldn't be marked as "radioactive, DO NOT approach". As a loan planner, I would rather to see you bsing about why dental school are allowed to charge this much, why the loan interest so high, why it can't be subsidized loan.

 

[BlackBunny103]

The worst 10 starting at the highest debt one: Midwestern IL, AT Still, Midwestern AZ, NYU, USC, Penn, Pacific, Missouri ATSU, Loma Linda, and Tufts

I wouldn't go to any of those.

What about Western in CA and Nova in Florida?

Since you specifically talked about NYU, why would AT Still be a relatively better investment? Thanks!

 

[Likkriue]

Yes, I know the difference between in-state SBU coa and NYU, NYU is definitely more expensive than SBU due to it's location and that it is a private school for in-state student, but it's roughly same for out-state student although I am not sure how long until you can considered to pay in-state tuition for SBU. The point I am trying to make here is that not everyone stand at top batch of applicant, so not all of the applicant will get into a cheaper state school. One will make their choice depends on their own situation, for instance if someone was accepted to NYU and want to decline that offer just because they want get into a cheaper state school is pretty unfavorable. The amount of money they have saved is about the same as one year of average salary they could have earned if not delaying one more cycle. Moreover, telling people not to apply for certain school just because they are expensive than in-state school but not for out-state student will only decrease each applicant's chance to become a dentist, which I think most state will have more applicants than in-state acceptance. In the end, I disagree with OP by pointing out certain school and telling people not to go there (I don't know what beef you got with NYU that you need title this thread like this). I admit those school listed are more expensive, but it's not like they doubled the price and they shouldn't be marked as "radioactive, DO NOT approach". As a loan planner, I would rather to see you bsing about why dental school are allowed to charge this much, why the loan interest so high, why it can't be subsidized loan.

Okay gotcha, thought you were saying they costed the same lol, Stony offers instate after 1 year, so the 100k is only for the first year. NYU is priced the same as many schools such as tufts, BU and more. So I agree calling NYU out when many other schools also charge the same isn't cool.

 

[Likkriue]

What about Western in CA and Nova in Florida?

Since you specifically talked about NYU, why would AT Still be a relatively better investment? Thanks!

Im assuming COL is far lower in some random city in Arizona than a huge urban city like NYC.

 

[aj30]

What do you honestly think you'll accomplish from making this thread. At the end of the day whatever warnings you give applicants nyu will still have enough students to fill their class and some whether that floats your boat or not . If nyu is someone's only acceptance what do you want them to do? Give up on dentistry and become an accountant? I don't think anyone will debate with you that the cost is high, we all agree. But you gotta have an alpha mindset and hustle and grind when you graduate and not expect everything to be handed to you

There's no point to this thread because those with financial sense already know he's right and those without will never learn (until reality smacks them in the face way down the line).

 

[Likkriue]

I don't think bashing your fellow students calling them financially illiterate is in good taste. These people are going to be your colleagues.

 

[aj30]

I don't think bashing your fellow students calling them financially illiterate is in good taste. These people are going to be your colleagues.

That's putting it in a more explicitly negative way than I did but unfortunately it's the truth. Financial illiteracy is way too common amongst health science professionals such as doctors and dentists. Might've been fine 50 years ago and even 20 years ago, but it's not anymore. Things aren't the same and you can't just rely on things working out and "learning on the job" when you have 500k+ to worry about.

 

[BosDent93]

What is everyone's idea of a reasonable COA from a dental school?

 

[Auntymarkovnikov]

What is everyone's idea of a reasonable COA from a dental school?

250

 

[allantois]

Finally someone had the courage to say it! Ignore pro-NYU lunatics in this thread.

 

[Craig_Sherwood234]

I don't think bashing your fellow students calling them financially illiterate is in good taste. These people are going to be your colleagues.

I saw his post to be neutrally stated; he's right and that's the reality. Try a different word. And if you want to argue about professionalism and ethnics here, the original post initiated with an ad hominem attack on the OP. If you're gonna call someone out, at least be impartial.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

Even if I will have the 300k in loans and no left from dental school (paid them already)?

If you paid them already then go for it

 

[Likkriue]

I saw his post to be neutrally stated; he's right and that's the reality. Try a different word. And if you want to argue about professionalism and ethnics here, the original post initiated with an ad hominem attack on the OP. If you're gonna call someone out, at least be impartial.

I'm calling people out who have and could in the future bash other students in this thread just because they decided to attend one of these more expensive private schools.

 

[allantois]

I'm calling people out who have and could in the future bash other students in this thread just because they decided to attend one of these more expensive private schools.

Why?

 

[Winner32]

I saw his post to be neutrally stated; he's right and that's the reality. Try a different word. And if you want to argue about professionalism and ethnics here, the original post initiated with an ad hominem attack on the OP. If you're gonna call someone out, at least be impartial.

"Ad hominem attack"

Who is this guy??

 

[Winner32]

I'm calling people out who have and could in the future bash other students in this thread just because they decided to attend one of these more expensive private schools.

Yea, and I honestly don't get why people even care if someone attends an expensive school. For those who are anti nyu, how does it affect you in any way if someone decides to pay 600k in tuition. Are you seriously losing sleep over this? Ironically enough it seems the ones who attend cheaper schools are the one who talk about these expensive schools the most.

 

[wengerout]

What do you honestly think you'll accomplish from making this thread. At the end of the day whatever warnings you give applicants nyu will still have enough students to fill their class and some whether that floats your boat or not . If nyu is someone's only acceptance what do you want them to do? Give up on dentistry and become an accountant? I don't think anyone will debate with you that the cost is high, we all agree. But you gotta have an alpha mindset and hustle and grind when you graduate and not expect everything to be handed to you

Pretty much this.

Not being a dentist sounds like a good alternative until you try to get a job with a majority of bachelor's degrees and are making 30k a year.

For example, in my STEM degree program, one person is currently making 29k a year and the other has a bachelor's degree + an MPH (Did the dual program) and hasn't even found a job yet nearly three months after graduation.

When you see this alternative, those scary debt numbers are put into a bit more perspective. Of course this doesn't mean NYU's tuition isn't insane, or that there aren't undergrad programs that make more reputable salaries. However if someone is this deep in the dental application process it's highly unlikely that they are in a position to drop everything and go back to undergrad for another degree.

The way I see it, you can live like a pauper for 10 years after going to NYU and then make a decent middle class salary (While potentially owning your own buisness) OR in a large part of cases you can make an average salary (40-70k) for your entire life(While likely always working for someone else).

Finally, as another poster said, while I know you mean well with this warning NYU will always fill their classes until the student loan bubble burst. Even now as you write this, there are students on this forum who are wishing for nothing more than a call from NYU for an acceptance. I think the greatest likelihood for change is going to be addressing the problem at its source, which is the government giving students virtually unlimited amounts of loan money allowing schools to raise cost to levels nearly none of us could afford otherwise. If tomorrow student loans were capped at 60k, I think you would see a lot of schools change their tune on the rising cost of a dental education.

 

[wengerout]

Why?

Because insulting people isn't a way to convince them that you're right.

 

[aj30]

Yea, and I honestly don't get why people even care if someone attends an expensive school. For those who are anti nyu, how does it affect you in any way if someone decides to pay 600k in tuition. Are you seriously losing sleep over this? Ironically enough it seems the ones who attend cheaper schools are the one who talk about these expensive schools the most.

I certainly don't lose sleep over it but you're wrong to think that one's choices can't impact another. Many people (dentists and business people alike) think that obscene student loans are fueling the rise of corporate dentistry and unethical behavior (both of which will probably increase competition for you and decrease your paycheck). You're not going to be practicing in a bubble, isolated from all problems, but as part of a field that is changing, in many respects not for the better.