Do you have to have to pay for a MGMA membership to see physician compensation surveys?
Physiatrist Salaries
- Thread starter axm397
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No, most of it is readily available data
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Maybe you can enlighten us how to obtain these data as I've tried every option on the MGMA website for an hour and can't view the results of any physician compensation surveys without needing to pay several hundred dollars.
Thanks
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I googled "physician salaries mgma" and found many sites listing the data, such as http://www.cejkasearch.com/compensation/amga_physician_compensation_survey.htm
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1) AMGA and MGMA are not the same thing
2) AMGA is typically lower
Actually total compensation does not routinely refer to many of the things you are listing, and specifically excludes retirement benefits. It usually refers to base salary plus bonus/reconciliation.
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Hi,
I'm really interested in learning more about PM&R, esp. pediatrics PM&R. Does anyone know how much they make? (I've tried to google it, but couldn't find anything concrete)
Also, from my understanding you have to do 3 years of PM&R residency then apply for 2 years in fellowship in pediatrics right? Are there programs out there that will combine both and you would apply once?
Is it very compeititive to get into? I know pediatrics is not extremely competitive to get into so would like to know how PM&R compares to a pediatrics residency.
LASTLY, SO FAR i have not found a freaking rotation in PM&R. I've been asking all around!!
Thanks!!
Tiffany
I'm really interested in learning more about PM&R, esp. pediatrics PM&R. Does anyone know how much they make? (I've tried to google it, but couldn't find anything concrete)
Also, from my understanding you have to do 3 years of PM&R residency then apply for 2 years in fellowship in pediatrics right? Are there programs out there that will combine both and you would apply once?
Is it very compeititive to get into? I know pediatrics is not extremely competitive to get into so would like to know how PM&R compares to a pediatrics residency.
LASTLY, SO FAR i have not found a freaking rotation in PM&R. I've been asking all around!!
Thanks!!
Tiffany
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There are combined programs. MCW had one, not sure if they still do.
Peds PM&R should be on par with regular inpt PM&R, depending on locale. Here in Illinois, e.g. most kids are on public aid, thanks to our former governor/convict. So anyone doing peds here is making squat.
PM&R competitiveness varies by program. Many threads here on that. Small supply of programs balanced by even smaller supply of American grads going in to it.
Peds PM&R should be on par with regular inpt PM&R, depending on locale. Here in Illinois, e.g. most kids are on public aid, thanks to our former governor/convict. So anyone doing peds here is making squat.
PM&R competitiveness varies by program. Many threads here on that. Small supply of programs balanced by even smaller supply of American grads going in to it.
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That is good for the field. Over saturation is not good for business. But then again medicine doesnt really adhere to the laws of supply and demand. No one did end up answering the question of whether or not PM&R pain and anesthesia pain are compensated similarly.
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again, it depends on where you are, what you do, and how your practice is set up. we all get reimbursed about the same amount for doing the same things (especially government payors) private insurance pays differently based on the contract you have with them. so yes, PM&R and anesthesia can make the same $$ if they are doing the same thing at the same location billing the same way in the same practice
axm's answer was nice, but unfortunately not really accurate. we do bill the same codes, and generally get compensated the same for identical procedures, but the average for "anethesia pain" is higher than for "PMR pain". shouldnt be, but it is. anesthesia departments, surgeons, hospitals, etc who are generally the employers have it ingrained in their minds that anethesiologists "should" make more money. also, if they were doing just anesthesia, they'd be making a boatload, so the "pain" side of things tends to be competetive with the base anesthesia salary. the base PMR salary doesnt really compare
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true - if you are in an academic setting, or a hospital employee, you will not get paid the same. if you are private practice and they want someone to do both anesthesia and pain, that will be compensated differently.
that's why i said "PM&R and anesthesia can make the same $$ if they are doing the same thing at the same location billing the same way in the same practice"
that's why i said "PM&R and anesthesia can make the same $$ if they are doing the same thing at the same location billing the same way in the same practice"
Does anybody have any updated MGMA and/or AMGA figures?
Additionally, in academics, how much will fellowship training impact starting base salary?
If anybody would like to PM me to talk more specifics, I'd appreciate it.
Additionally, in academics, how much will fellowship training impact starting base salary?
If anybody would like to PM me to talk more specifics, I'd appreciate it.
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I know that money on the outpatient side can vary a lot based on what types of procedures you do and so forth.
But, I was told on the inpatient side that a good estimate for salary is $10,000 a year per bed. Does this number seem logical or not. One of the docs I worked with only does inpatient in the morning (but is always on call); and he covered a 17 bed unit. so $170,000 for working 5 half days a year seems a bit off to me.
what do you think/know from your experience?
But, I was told on the inpatient side that a good estimate for salary is $10,000 a year per bed. Does this number seem logical or not. One of the docs I worked with only does inpatient in the morning (but is always on call); and he covered a 17 bed unit. so $170,000 for working 5 half days a year seems a bit off to me.
what do you think/know from your experience?
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"Back in the day..." You could probably count on $10-20K/bed/day filled, but with the slashes in inpatient rehab $$, I think it skewed much more to the lower end of that range...
That would assume that you are billing for every pt. every day. You cannot justify that anymore and if you have a RAC audit, you have to say WHY you saw the pts more than Q48hrs. and if they are not sick, you will lose. Those figures would also include a med directorship (usually 70-100K/yr assuming 20hrs/wk of admin time).
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How do you do inpatient for only half a day? I don't see how that's viable, unless you have residents or a PA.
It takes all morning to write notes on 15 patients. They're now medically more complicated than they used to be 20 years ago, when they were probably all ortho cases (now there will be few, if any ortho cases). You can also count on one admission and one discharge each day. These take a very long time in PM&R.
That's why I don't trust these "inpatient/outpatient" job listings.
It takes all morning to write notes on 15 patients. They're now medically more complicated than they used to be 20 years ago, when they were probably all ortho cases (now there will be few, if any ortho cases). You can also count on one admission and one discharge each day. These take a very long time in PM&R.
That's why I don't trust these "inpatient/outpatient" job listings.
Some patients are going to take more time than others, but community inpatient PM&R is a lot different than your residency... 15 inpatient notes, a couple h&ps, and a discharge summary or two is definitely doable in a half day. Things go a lot faster when you know what is pertinent and don't have to staff everything... There are a few key issues for each type of inpatient rehab patient--you focus on those and move on. Additionally, if the patient is very medically complex in community PM&R, medicine gets consulted for co-management.
are you serious? You had better get faster or choose another line of work. I can have up to 15 patients spread over 3 hospitals within a 15mile radius (2 hospitals 1 with a IRF, one LTAC). I am done with all inpt work except admissions to the IRF and new consults by 9am when office hours start. Then I finish up after 5pm when office hours are done.
THAT is the real world.
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When I did inpt rehab at my first post-residency gig, I did mornings in the hospital rehab floor and afternoons in my clinic. 12 beds, all admits, discharges, consults and daily notes were done and I was usually bored by 11 am. My contract required me to have 4 hours per day on the rehab floor, so I'd stay there and get other things done.
You'll get faster.
You'll get faster.
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So when it comes to pain and pain training do anesthesia docs and pmr docs get the same training in fellowship? Is there any procedures that PMR docs are not trained in because they may lack certain skills learned during an anesthesia residency? Or maybe they have done enough of certain procedures during fellowship but realistically will not do them in private practice because their skills may not be as good as anesthesiologist? Are there any procedures that you guys (PMR docs) that may not be inclined to do that your anesthesiologist pain colleagues may do?
Or do you both fields finish fellowships with for all intents and purposes with identical pain skills that can be applied realistically in PP?
Or do you both fields finish fellowships with for all intents and purposes with identical pain skills that can be applied realistically in PP?
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Don't some anesthesia/pain guys take call and do anesthesia stuff. When us PM&R guys are home free. Could that be the pay difference or do they just screw us with the contracts
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So when it comes to pain and pain training do anesthesia docs and pmr docs get the same training in fellowship? Is there any procedures that PMR docs are not trained in because they may lack certain skills learned during an anesthesia residency? Or maybe they have done enough of certain procedures during fellowship but realistically will not do them in private practice because their skills may not be as good as anesthesiologist? Are there any procedures that you guys (PMR docs) that may not be inclined to do that your anesthesiologist pain colleagues may do?
Or do you both fields finish fellowships with for all intents and purposes with identical pain skills that can be applied realistically in PP?
Pain fellowships are the same whether you've done an anesthesia, PMR, or neurology residency, and you should be able perform the same procedures after fellowship (This greatly varies by the quality of fellowship).
Your background residency generally influences (but doesn't control) how you practice pain medicine.
PMR docs (in most residencies) don't learn many procedures beyond EMGs, trigger points and knee/shoulder injections, but learn a lot of biomechanics and functional rehabilitation.
Anesthesia is heavy on procedures, but most aren't the procedures that you do as a pain physician. GAS trained docs are way better at peripheral nerve blocks, which are rare in pain medicine, but helpful at times. All the blind interlaminar epidurals from anesthesia residency don't mean much in pain where fluoro-guided transforaminal epidurals are the standard of care.
Because of their procedural background, anesthesia docs tend to be more aggressive performing procedures, relative to PMR docs which generally treat earlier with PT/psych. Anesthesia-Pain docs tend to be more comfortable with more invasive procedures such as vertebroplasty, pumps, stims, cervical discos, etc as they are more comfortable handling a crashing patient than a PMR doc. Because they tend to do more procedures, and they also tend to do more complicated/risky procedures (which reimburse more than bread and butter spine interventions), they generally make more.
These are just trends, not absolutes.
They're are plenty of PMR-pain docs who are total needle jockeys and there are many great anesthesia-pain docs, particularly here on the SDN forums who recognize the value of rehab/psych/multi-disciplinary approach to pain patients.
But to answer your main question. If you complete a "good" ACGME pain fellowship, irregardless of your base residency, you should be able to do the same pain procedures and will be reimbursed the same amount by insurance companies.
prefontaine
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Is "irregardless" a word commonly used in pain medicine?
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LOL, I remember my high school psych teacher would love to use 'irregardless' in place of regardless
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I'm an MS4 who is very interested in the field of PM&R and all it has to offer (great patient interaction, a mix of neurology/anatomy, procedures, + most PM&R residents seem to be genuinely be satisfied with their role in patient care).
However, I'm wondering with the recent reimbursement cuts for EMGs and NCVs that I've heard of, how is this affecting salaries for PM&R? It seems that as such a versatile field, there would be plenty of other ways to make money if you want to?
Also, how does the job market seem to be trending for PM&R?
I know that these shouldn't be the main concerns...and they def aren't deciding factors, but I think all med students worry about these things since we just really don't get any experience/info on these matters.
Thanks in advance!
However, I'm wondering with the recent reimbursement cuts for EMGs and NCVs that I've heard of, how is this affecting salaries for PM&R? It seems that as such a versatile field, there would be plenty of other ways to make money if you want to?
Also, how does the job market seem to be trending for PM&R?
I know that these shouldn't be the main concerns...and they def aren't deciding factors, but I think all med students worry about these things since we just really don't get any experience/info on these matters.
Thanks in advance!
Please, could anyone comment on the above questions? I would like to know as I have done a search for PM&R jobs and they seem quite scarce.. What is the market really like today and compensation?
... - the incredibly in debt med student :/
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Any numbers on Sports Med?
I'm debating Sports Med vs outpatient MSK. I love Sports Med but I'm not dead set on collegiate and professional Sports Med. Trying to determine if I can achieve my career goals with only a Mayo trained outpatient training.
Thanks.
I'm debating Sports Med vs outpatient MSK. I love Sports Med but I'm not dead set on collegiate and professional Sports Med. Trying to determine if I can achieve my career goals with only a Mayo trained outpatient training.
Thanks.
The AMSSM puts out an annual graduate survey on salary, practice setting, etc for all recent SM grads across all specialties. The data is supposed to be "members only" but if you do a Google search for "AMSSM graduate survey" the 2013 data comes up. I don't see the 2014 or 2015 that easily publicly available so if you want that data send me a PM and we can "discuss" it.
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Hey guys,
I was looking at the MGMA salary data published in 2015 (based on 2014 data). They state the mean salary for PM&R 1-2 years out of residency is
$231,556. Can any new graduates comment on how accurate this is?
I know salary depends a lot on location, practice set up, etc. etc. but just trying to gauge if the numbers are somewhat accurate.
I was looking at the MGMA salary data published in 2015 (based on 2014 data). They state the mean salary for PM&R 1-2 years out of residency is
$231,556. Can any new graduates comment on how accurate this is?
I know salary depends a lot on location, practice set up, etc. etc. but just trying to gauge if the numbers are somewhat accurate.
someone correct me if I'm wrong but there is no difference between TBI and SCI in terms of salary. You'd probably be making as much as any inpatient physiatrist out there. A fellowship in TBI or SCI is not going to add much to your salary.
D
deleted573262
What is the catch with jobs like these on doccafe?
https://www.doccafe.com/jobs/physic...50-400k-part-time-available-also-no-call.html
I ask because i've been shadowing a pmr and he has never mentioned jobs this well compensated.
PM me if more comfortable. I'll delete if this is an inappropriate question. Thanks.
https://www.doccafe.com/jobs/physic...50-400k-part-time-available-also-no-call.html
I ask because i've been shadowing a pmr and he has never mentioned jobs this well compensated.
PM me if more comfortable. I'll delete if this is an inappropriate question. Thanks.
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Probably Medicare fraud.
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2015 MGMA data
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Why would you think that? I know PM&R pain docs in ligit private practice making double that. Also if you work for Healthsouth you can make about the same. It will be hard to make that much in highly desirable locations and if you are doing academic medicine.
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What is the typical annual increase in salary for PM&R physicians. Average annual Inflation is roughly 3.2%. I would also expect some level of productivity bonus.
If a PM&R resident getting out is making $205,000 starting...should we anticipate about a 4% increase in incoming annually until retirement, or is it difficult to beat inflation? Thanks
If a PM&R resident getting out is making $205,000 starting...should we anticipate about a 4% increase in incoming annually until retirement, or is it difficult to beat inflation? Thanks
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Yikes..only 200k to start? Is this common for most PMR grads? Is it feasible for a new grad to push starting salary to 300 with some combination of work?
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Looking at the MGMA compensation chart from 2015...10th percentile for the South region is about $170,000. 25th percentile is about $218,000. The median salary was $282,000.
Salary.com for the South is in the same ballpark. 25th percentile is $194,000 (not including bonuses), and 50th percentile is $215,000 (not including bonuses).
Speaking to my PD...it’s been over a decade since a graduate has received less than $200,000 starting. So, I’d guess those in the 10th percentile are in a very subgroup of PM&R docs (those working less than full-time, academic physiatrists, and those who got the shaft by demanding to work in a place saturated with PM&R docs such as Chicago or NYC).
So when I build a budget for the next 5-10 years to determine how much house I can afford and what type of school my kids will go to...I’m using $205,000 as a realistic conservative starting salary. If I end up making more...great. I’m more interested in how to expect my salary to change in time. How much can you expect your salary to increase over your starting salary and over what rate? Do yearly salary increases historically beat inflation? This is pretty important when building a budget.
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The population is getting older, more people are having injuries, diabetes, arthritis, obesity etc. There will always be a need for PM&R. Maybe not so much in the inpatient setting. Also with the focus on cost saving there will be more focus on non surgical pain options.
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There are a number of places that do unfortunately still offer sub 200k to start ( I don't think anyone should take that low of a salary)- but as you mention Chicago has starting salaries of sub 200k, as well as places like NY, CT, etc. Your question is a difficult one to answer - so if you are a partner in a practice you will eat what you kill - you work more you make more. If you are an employee somewhere you will get standard cost of living increases - so a few grand extra each year.
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But do salaries typically increase with tenure (either from raises or productivity)? Do those increases eventually Peter out after a certain point? Do wage increases in PMR historically match inflation?
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From my experience (which is albeit very limited) salary increases with cost of living expenses that are typical for other industries. Bonus/productivity/quality bonuses are a completely different animal. Typically those are stable - for example my future employer has a productivity bonus which ranges from like 20-55% depending on production. That won't change - I will likely become more efficient over time though so I will likely have a greater bonus given more productivity. Again if you are partner your salary depends on what you produce minus overhead for you and your practice/partners
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Average salary in the field is creeping up, fwiw, but that is just that, an average. It depends on what you do. In 2012 EMG took a big hit. Your best bet is to work hard and be more efficient after getting a contract that incentivizes your efforts, then you control your own destiny.
I thought I had an ok contract to start, but with a reasonable rvu in an 'eat what you kill' model, I got a 50 percent raise my first 2 years. Your incentives are more important than starting salary by a long shot. If you get a great starting salary and don't earn it in your first 2 years, you will be in a bad spot!
I thought I had an ok contract to start, but with a reasonable rvu in an 'eat what you kill' model, I got a 50 percent raise my first 2 years. Your incentives are more important than starting salary by a long shot. If you get a great starting salary and don't earn it in your first 2 years, you will be in a bad spot!
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I will agree. I took a job that gave me a pretty reasonable starting salary and guarantee despite what I actually bill that is ongoing and permanent with a possibility to make a massive amount of money if I hit certain RVUs with a possibility for upward mobility into a leadership role if I want to after a year. I agree that the bonus structure is important and can definitely help make you more. But my point is that many PM&R docs don't do pain/spine - even in my class which is rather large there's only a few people - at most 2 - per class that have EVER gone into pain/spine. I personally initially thoguht about pain/spine but decided against it.
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Talking with colleagues, there are primarily inpatient docs making almost what I do in relatively remote areas, a few in academics making half that. Most that do pain/intervention are gravitating toward the high end of that scale. Your production and geography seem to be the biggest determinants in a complex equation.
Regarding burnout, I don't see much of it outside of heavy inpatient or generally crappy admin/partnership situations.
Regarding burnout, I don't see much of it outside of heavy inpatient or generally crappy admin/partnership situations.
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Thank you for all the above information listed throughout this topic--very insightful as the sources citing data regarding income/salaries are always so variable. I was wondering if anyone had a copy of the full AAPMR 2017 Compensation report. The "summary" version is available to everyone online, however, that one omits the different subsections listed in the full version. Feel free to PM, thank you in advance!
I think I have a pretty good grip on what to expect for an average salary, but I know there are many different practice types in PM&R that change what you can expect to make.
What do you think the salary would be for a PM&R doc who was the medical director for the rehab unit of a moderate-sized hospital?
What do you think the salary would be for a PM&R doc who was the medical director for the rehab unit of a moderate-sized hospital?
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Depends on patient load, hospitalist support, call, etc.
Low end would probably be $250k. Maybe $350 upper end.
Obviously lower if academic or VA.
That’s just with the little experience/exposure I’ve had so far.
