PharmD to NP

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luke123

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Hello,

Not sure if this has been asked before or not. I am currently a Pharm.D and have been one for going on 5 years, but I am looking into a career change. I want more autonomy and more say in patient care. I am wondering what would my pathway to become a NP look like? I would like to get the best education I can but I also dont want to be spending to many years in school. Is there a specific path that I need to do?

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From PharmD to NP is about 5-6 years. To become a PA would be 2-3 depending on if your science pre-reqs have aged out. If you are still interested in the NP route let me know I can give you more specific advice, or you can search this forum for other people who have asked a similar question.
 
From PharmD to NP is about 5-6 years. To become a PA would be 2-3 depending on if your science pre-reqs have aged out. If you are still interested in the NP route let me know I can give you more specific advice, or you can search this forum for other people who have asked a similar question.

Yeah, I'd like more information. Is there stuff I can do online in order to continue to work in the beginning? So I can continue to support my family and have less debit. What is the route for someone who already has a medical degree background? I have a bachelors and my pharmd.
 
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Yeah, I'd like more information. Is there stuff I can do online in order to continue to work in the beginning? So I can continue to support my family and have less debit. What is the route for someone who already has a medical degree background? I have a bachelors and my pharmd.

If you are pursuing NP strictly for the independence it can offer over PA, first determine if your state is an independent NP state or not. If it is, you need to become an RN first and then go back to NP school. I would recommend a direct entry RN masters program at the university with a NP program. It will be about a 4 year program, you’ll get your RN halfway through. Start working as a RN and use the hospital system tuition reimbursement for the last 2 of your masters and your NP, that will cut down on costs plus you’ll be working. It will take 5-6 years, but you’ll be working an a RN for 3 of them.
 
If you are pursuing NP strictly for the independence it can offer over PA, first determine if your state is an independent NP state or not. If it is, you need to become an RN first and then go back to NP school. I would recommend a direct entry RN masters program at the university with a NP program. It will be about a 4 year program, you’ll get your RN halfway through. Start working as a RN and use the hospital system tuition reimbursement for the last 2 of your masters and your NP, that will cut down on costs plus you’ll be working. It will take 5-6 years, but you’ll be working an a RN for 3 of them.

Will completing a direct rn masters programs give the the title of np?
 
Direct entry Np programs are essentially similar to just doing something like a year long accelerated BSN program, then going to a 2-year MSN NP program. That’s potentially a 3 year process at breakneck speed. Many direct entry Np programs are DNP programs. No need for that unless you want the DNP. No need to relocate to one of the rare direct entry Np programs (all the ones I know of require you to be attending at their campus). What my suggestion affords you is the ability to get your in person accelerated BSN anywhere that you find appealing to live. Then relocate to wherever you want to work as an RN (or as a pharmacist I guess), and then do your online masters NP program. No need to work as an RN for the direct entry program that way. Gives you tons more freedom. Also, many direct entry Np programs do not give you the RN degree... so you basically have to finish the whole program to get the nursing degree. You still are certified as an RN, just with no degree to your name. Kind of a wierd twist that essentially keeps students captive if they want that parchment. Those programs also tend to be quite expensive. With my plan, you find the cheapest ABSN program, and then graduate and go find the cheapest Np program that you want to go to.

If you did psyche NP, with your knowledge of meds, you would literally own it, hands down. You’d be making $250k if you wanted without breaking a sweat. Pharm knowledge is so handy there. Think about it. You could have so many options too.
 
Direct entry Np programs are essentially similar to just doing something like a year long accelerated BSN program, then going to a 2-year MSN NP program. That’s potentially a 3 year process at breakneck speed. Many direct entry Np programs are DNP programs. No need for that unless you want the DNP. No need to relocate to one of the rare direct entry Np programs (all the ones I know of require you to be attending at their campus). What my suggestion affords you is the ability to get your in person accelerated BSN anywhere that you find appealing to live. Then relocate to wherever you want to work as an RN (or as a pharmacist I guess), and then do your online masters NP program. No need to work as an RN for the direct entry program that way. Gives you tons more freedom. Also, many direct entry Np programs do not give you the RN degree... so you basically have to finish the whole program to get the nursing degree. You still are certified as an RN, just with no degree to your name. Kind of a wierd twist that essentially keeps students captive if they want that parchment. Those programs also tend to be quite expensive. With my plan, you find the cheapest ABSN program, and then graduate and go find the cheapest Np program that you want to go to.

If you did psyche NP, with your knowledge of meds, you would literally own it, hands down. You’d be making $250k if you wanted without breaking a sweat. Pharm knowledge is so handy there. Think about it. You could have so many options too.

I live in Arizona so my state allows for full autonomy which is great. Funny enough I was looking at psych, not necessarily for the money (though that sounds nice), but because I think it would be fulfilling to me. I wanted to be a psychiatrist originally, but I let my fear of physics get in my way(should have gone to community college); my college professor was a terrible teacher. I like your idea of getting it done in 3 years, but I don't see any "cheap" ABSN in Arizona. What would you say is cheap?
 
$30,000-$50,000. Combined with a $30,000 to $40,000 Np program, you are still only looking at a pathway that costs about what a decently priced PA program costs, and you would have the option of working and making a good wage for two of those three years.
 
I really like Psyche. You sit down and talk to people all day about their meds.
 
Hello,

Not sure if this has been asked before or not. I am currently a Pharm.D and have been one for going on 5 years, but I am looking into a career change. I want more autonomy and more say in patient care. I am wondering what would my pathway to become a NP look like? I would like to get the best education I can but I also dont want to be spending to many years in school. Is there a specific path that I need to do?
PA would probably be an easier switch for you
 
I live in Arizona so my state allows for full autonomy which is great. Funny enough I was looking at psych, not necessarily for the money (though that sounds nice), but because I think it would be fulfilling to me. I wanted to be a psychiatrist originally, but I let my fear of physics get in my way(should have gone to community college); my college professor was a terrible teacher. I like your idea of getting it done in 3 years, but I don't see any "cheap" ABSN in Arizona. What would you say is cheap?
Lol... You literally use close to 0% of undergrad physics in med school. A lot of these classes are used to intimidate premeds. I guess you are/were one of the victims.

Do a 12-14 months RN program and then an online NP... Psych NP is a hot commodity right now
 
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I was a career changer and took a slower route. By the time I get my Psych NP next year it'll have taken about 6 years. I've also been working part-time throughout. If you can't move and need income, it'll probably take at least 4-6 years.

You can go for an online Psych NP program, but the biggest downside to that is you will have to find your own preceptors and clinical sites, which can be difficult.
 
Will completing a direct rn masters programs give the the title of np?

You have to be careful and look into each program. Many Direct-Entry Nursing Masters programs are not meant to prepare NP. They are "clinical leadership" programs and you end up with a RN after you graduate. Those programs, imo, are mostly a waste of money if your goal is to be an NP.
 
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The prerequisites for Pharm, RN, and PA are essentially the same.
 
The prerequisites for Pharm, RN, and PA are essentially the same.

This is not true.. I can’t speak for pharm, but Pre-PA at most programs is essentially pre-med without the MCAT (1 year bio, 1 year chem, 1 year physics, and either 1/2 or 1 year of o-chem). Pre nursing is usually some social sciences, some intro math/science courses, and A&P, and some programs will allow you to do all of the above as a part of RN school..
 
Guess my information is dated. Hell, I'm dated.
 
This is not true.. I can’t speak for pharm, but Pre-PA at most programs is essentially pre-med without the MCAT (1 year bio, 1 year chem, 1 year physics, and either 1/2 or 1 year of o-chem). Pre nursing is usually some social sciences, some intro math/science courses, and A&P, and some programs will allow you to do all of the above as a part of RN school..

This is not correct. Although it is program dependent, RN school pre-reqs are usually A&P1 and 2, micro, patho, sometimes chem. PA school is similar.

 
This is not correct. Although it is program dependent, RN school pre-reqs are usually A&P1 and 2, micro, patho, sometimes chem. PA school is similar.


You are not correct on this. I have read most of your post lately and you are trying so hard to make everyone think RN school = PA school and it is not. You are so extreme on your nursing theory that you cannot is understand that these two are not equal. See below the pre-reqs I pulled from a PA school and a very good BSN school. The pre-req are not even in the same ball park and I have never heard of a nursing school requiring patho. They may recommend it, but not require it. You have to understand those two things before you make comments like the above (RN pre-reqs are similar to PA school pre-reqs). Have you even taking 2 years of chemistry, 1 year of physics, genetics? Please calm down your statements regarding PA school and quick comparing us to nursing school. I don't get it when nurses are so proud of their nursing theory, but want to fight about pre-reqs on a medical model type schooling (PA school). BTW my wife is an FNP-C and I was in PA school when she was in her nursing school. I also watched her go through FNP school x 3 years (part time) and know every single lecture/assignment/etc in her masters classes and she will tell you just as I am that FNP is not anywhere close to PA schooling.

PA School:
Applicants must have a science GPA of least 3.00 and an overall GPA of at least 3.00. These are considered minimum GPAs, not competitive GPAs. Average competitive GPAs are typically greater than 3.50.
Prerequisite coursework includes:
  • Medical terminology (1-3 credits)
  • Statistics (3 credits)
  • College chemistry I and II (8 credits)
  • Organic chemistry I and II (6-8 credits)
  • Microbiology (3-4 credits)
  • Vertebrate or human anatomy (3-4 credits)
  • Vertebrate or human physiology (3-4 credits)
  • A combined Anatomy and Physiology I and II (6-8 credits) will be accepted in place of separate anatomy and physiology courses.
  • Genetics (3-4 credits)
The GRE general test is required for the 2020 CASPA cycle and must have been taken within the last seven years. Currently, there is no minimum score required.

Nurse School:
The Upper Division Option admissions requirements are as follows:
  • Minimum 3.0 cumulative undergraduate GPA
  • Minimum 3.0 cumulative GPA on core prerequisites
  • Minimum of 54 credit hours in the following prerequisites. (Note: Anatomy and Physiology I & II and Microbiology must have been taken within the last five years. Core prerequisites may not have been taken more than twice within the last five years.)
    • Anatomy and Physiology I with lab*
    • Anatomy and Physiology II with lab*
    • Microbiology with lab*
    • Nutrition*
    • General Psychology*
    • Human Growth and Development* (across the lifespan)
    • Statistics*
    • English Composition I*
    • English Composition II
    • College Algebra
    • Introduction to Sociology
    • Ethics
    • History or Political Science
    • Biology, Chemistry, Genetics, or Physics
    • General Elective
    • Humanities Elective
    • Social Science Elective
* Core prerequisites
Core prerequisite courses are required for applicants with a bachelor's degree.
 
You are not correct on this. I have read most of your post lately and you are trying so hard to make everyone think RN school = PA school and it is not. You are so extreme on your nursing theory that you cannot is understand that these two are not equal. See below the pre-reqs I pulled from a PA school and a very good BSN school. The pre-req are not even in the same ball park and I have never heard of a nursing school requiring patho. They may recommend it, but not require it. You have to understand those two things before you make comments like the above (RN pre-reqs are similar to PA school pre-reqs). Have you even taking 2 years of chemistry, 1 year of physics, genetics? Please calm down your statements regarding PA school and quick comparing us to nursing school. I don't get it when nurses are so proud of their nursing theory, but want to fight about pre-reqs on a medical model type schooling (PA school). BTW my wife is an FNP-C and I was in PA school when she was in her nursing school. I also watched her go through FNP school x 3 years (part time) and know every single lecture/assignment/etc in her masters classes and she will tell you just as I am that FNP is not anywhere close to PA schooling.

PA School:
Applicants must have a science GPA of least 3.00 and an overall GPA of at least 3.00. These are considered minimum GPAs, not competitive GPAs. Average competitive GPAs are typically greater than 3.50.
Prerequisite coursework includes:
  • Medical terminology (1-3 credits)
  • Statistics (3 credits)
  • College chemistry I and II (8 credits)
  • Organic chemistry I and II (6-8 credits)
  • Microbiology (3-4 credits)
  • Vertebrate or human anatomy (3-4 credits)
  • Vertebrate or human physiology (3-4 credits)
  • A combined Anatomy and Physiology I and II (6-8 credits) will be accepted in place of separate anatomy and physiology courses.
  • Genetics (3-4 credits)
The GRE general test is required for the 2020 CASPA cycle and must have been taken within the last seven years. Currently, there is no minimum score required.

Nurse School:
The Upper Division Option admissions requirements are as follows:
  • Minimum 3.0 cumulative undergraduate GPA
  • Minimum 3.0 cumulative GPA on core prerequisites
  • Minimum of 54 credit hours in the following prerequisites. (Note: Anatomy and Physiology I & II and Microbiology must have been taken within the last five years. Core prerequisites may not have been taken more than twice within the last five years.)
    • Anatomy and Physiology I with lab*
    • Anatomy and Physiology II with lab*
    • Microbiology with lab*
    • Nutrition*
    • General Psychology*
    • Human Growth and Development* (across the lifespan)
    • Statistics*
    • English Composition I*
    • English Composition II
    • College Algebra
    • Introduction to Sociology
    • Ethics
    • History or Political Science
    • Biology, Chemistry, Genetics, or Physics
    • General Elective
    • Humanities Elective
    • Social Science Elective
* Core prerequisites
Core prerequisite courses are required for applicants with a bachelor's degree.

I think you are confusing me with someone else. I have never once compared nursing school to PA school beyond what I did just one post before concerning pre-requisites; they are very different animals for sure. Just click on my name and you can see everything I've posted on. I have never once mentioned nursing theory in any post i've ever made beyond confirming the theory classes are a waste of time. Patho was required for my ADN. I posted a link from the AAPA, you didn't reference it. I think you're the one in need of calming.

Also you joined today and this is your first post? Fascinating.
 
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I think you are confusing me with someone else. I have never once compared nursing school to PA school beyond what I did just one post before concerning pre-requisites; they are very different animals for sure. Just click on my name and you can see everything I've posted on. I have never once mentioned nursing theory in any post i've ever made beyond confirming the theory classes are a waste of time. Patho was required for my ADN. I posted a link from the AAPA, you didn't reference it. I think you're the one in need of calming.

Also you joined today and this is your first post? Fascinating.

Well he’s right on the pre-req differences.. pre-pa is pre-med, pre nursing is significantly less. The course requisites above are similar to all of the programs (PA and RN) at least in my immediate area. It’s pertinent to mention that the majority of those nursing pre-reqs are gen ed requirements of most degrees, so you’re in those classes anyways. It’s also pertinent to reiterate that a&p and microbio can sometimes be taken concurrently with RN coursework after acceptance to the RN program.

For full disclosure on my perspective - I am strongly leaning towards NP..
 
Well he’s right on the pre-req differences.. pre-pa is pre-med, pre nursing is significantly less. The course requisites above are similar to all of the programs (PA and RN) at least in my immediate area. It’s pertinent to mention that the majority of those nursing pre-reqs are gen ed requirements of most degrees, so you’re in those classes anyways. It’s also pertinent to reiterate that a&p and microbio can sometimes be taken concurrently with RN coursework after acceptance to the RN program.

For full disclosure on my perspective - I am strongly leaning towards NP..

I’m a NP and a paramedic. This site is great for finding out how big of a chip some people carry on their shoulders, but in reality the overwhelming majority of healthcare works well with NP’s. So take this site with a grain of salt (or a pound, as these people are very salty) and if you want more tailored advice you can DM me, I’ll help ya out.
 
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All these degrees are easy to get, including MD :p
 
There’s no physics requirement for most PA schools. In fact, one near me doesn’t require physics, chemistry (organic or general), or genetics. Essentially, the only course that would set it apart from my associates nursing program requirement would be biochemistry. Biochem usually does require gen chem and o chem as prerequisites, and one would probably need them to do well, but the only required prerequisites are more basic that what I needed for RN school. That said, most applicants would have a hard time getting in without a heavy science background.

To say Pa students are simply med school-lite students is an oversimplification. I feel like most folks could somehow manage to get through medical school, but most folks really don’t have the drive to do it. It’s grueling. Which is why most PAs and most NPs aren’t there. There’s a difference between the one year of in class studies and one year clinical training that PAs do, and what physicians go through. PAs aren’t “almost” doctors. Based on many of their complaints about being subordinate to physicians, if they were “almost” doctors, they would have put in the considerable effort to go the rest of the way. The extra prerequisites that they didn’t take do matter, and so do getting the kinds of grades and test scores to be able to actually get into medical school, and not have to settle for Pa school.
 
To say Pa students are simply med school-lite students is an oversimplification. I feel like most folks could somehow manage to get through medical school, but most folks really don’t have the drive to do it. It’s grueling. Which is why most PAs and most NPs aren’t there. There’s a difference between the one year of in class studies and one year clinical training that PAs do, and what physicians go through. PAs aren’t “almost” doctors. Based on many of their complaints about being subordinate to physicians, if they were “almost” doctors, they would have put in the considerable effort to go the rest of the way. The extra prerequisites that they didn’t take do matter, and so do getting the kinds of grades and test scores to be able to actually get into medical school, and not have to settle for Pa school.

Disagree about that. Getting an NP degree is extremely easy (nothing against NP since my spouse is one). Most NP would not do well in the prereqs require to get into med school. The MCAT will also be another hurdle they will have to overcome. Of course, there are some NPs who have the intellect to become physicians but to say most is not accurate. Medical school is not only about the drive (I must admit that is a great part of it), it is also about having the intelligence to retain a bunch of minutiae in a short amount of time. As much as I don't like to use IQ as a measure of intelligence, if you have a low (er) IQ, no matter how hard you try, there will be careers (or professions) out of your reach. it's just a fact of life.

Even in med school, one realizes quickly that certain specialties are out of reach. :(
 
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There’s no physics requirement for most PA schools. In fact, one near me doesn’t require physics, chemistry (organic or general), or genetics. Essentially, the only course that would set it apart from my associates nursing program requirement would be biochemistry. Biochem usually does require gen chem and o chem as prerequisites, and one would probably need them to do well, but the only required prerequisites are more basic that what I needed for RN school. That said, most applicants would have a hard time getting in without a heavy science background.

To say Pa students are simply med school-lite students is an oversimplification. I feel like most folks could somehow manage to get through medical school, but most folks really don’t have the drive to do it. It’s grueling. Which is why most PAs and most NPs aren’t there. There’s a difference between the one year of in class studies and one year clinical training that PAs do, and what physicians go through. PAs aren’t “almost” doctors. Based on many of their complaints about being subordinate to physicians, if they were “almost” doctors, they would have put in the considerable effort to go the rest of the way. The extra prerequisites that they didn’t take do matter, and so do getting the kinds of grades and test scores to be able to actually get into medical school, and not have to settle for Pa school.


I’m not trying to be contrary but here’s OU’s program requirements which are essentially the same as the other PA programs in the area. 1 year chem, 1 year bio, 1 semester o-chem, biochemistry, and anatomy and physiology.

If you took 1 year of physics instead of a&p, 1 more semester of o-chem, and an MCAT, you can apply to medical school.

Nothing oversimplified about calling it pre-med lite, it is.
 
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Maybe my undergrad was weird but nursing students often get to take "chemistry for nursing," or some similar such dramatically easier version of chem. There's a significant difference in the rigor of pre-med/ pre-PA and nursing pre-reqs. I would know, I took both.
 
Maybe my undergrad was weird but nursing students often get to take "chemistry for nursing," or some similar such dramatically easier version of chem. There's a significant difference in the rigor of pre-med/ pre-PA and nursing pre-reqs. I would know, I took both.

I also took both. In my program the classes are indistinguishable as far as A&P1/2, micro, and patho. I cant speak to chemistry.
 
Seems chemistry, upper level bio, physics, and any other weird one off requirements are the difference.
 
Maybe my undergrad was weird but nursing students often get to take "chemistry for nursing," or some similar such dramatically easier version of chem. There's a significant difference in the rigor of pre-med/ pre-PA and nursing pre-reqs. I would know, I took both.

I was an RN before and I’m a medical student now. Yet I only ever took bio, chem, physics, and orgo, etc traditional format for various reasons. However, besides biology, I actually think it makes more sense to take “blah blah for healthcare professionals” because theoretically it would be more relevant.
 
I think you are confusing me with someone else. I have never once compared nursing school to PA school beyond what I did just one post before concerning pre-requisites; they are very different animals for sure. Just click on my name and you can see everything I've posted on. I have never once mentioned nursing theory in any post i've ever made beyond confirming the theory classes are a waste of time. Patho was required for my ADN. I posted a link from the AAPA, you didn't reference it. I think you're the one in need of calming.

Also you joined today and this is your first post? Fascinating.
I have been on SDN for years, just never posted, but had to as I have seen some man inaccurate things about FNP and PA-C so I had to finally step in. Patho. might have been for "your" ADN, but that patho is no where the same as pre-med patho. (500 level course). Please stop trying to make the RN degree = to the PA degree. We all know it is not and you will never convince anyone except yourself.
 
I had all the pre med/ pre dental prerequisites and am an NP. Also applied to PA programs, so I know the landscape. And yes, many NPs are woefully short of the kind of coursework even PAs would take to be able to be competitive in PA school. Having had those prereqs, I was basically able to walk into nursing school, as many of the nursing prereqs were what we called “survey” classes. So their chemistry requirements weren’t the upper division general chem that would be required for medical school. However, I do remember my patho class being the same overall between the PA and RNs. Chemistry, no way... and it actually would have hurt me to have done bad in my upper division chemistry and then had to compete against someone taking a nursing survey if they had higher marks. I remember applying to nursing school and being a bit frustrated because I knew my B+ in a way harder chemistry class was up against someone who took the easier pre nursing survey class. But I also remember being similarly frustrated that I was applying to Pa school as a biology major who took mostly hard classes, and being up against business majors who took only the hard science prereqs, and got A’s in them because they were taking relatively easy business coursework.

Here are two premier PA program prerequisite lists:






These programs don’t really require much more than most RN programs. You’ll see the same anat and phys classes. Even U of U allows into to chemistry to count. Those lists are actually shockingly stark compared to what has been suggested. Those are actually much closer to RN prereqs than MD prereqs.
 
I have been on SDN for years, just never posted, but had to as I have seen some man inaccurate things about FNP and PA-C so I had to finally step in. Patho. might have been for "your" ADN, but that patho is no where the same as pre-med patho. (500 level course). Please stop trying to make the RN degree = to the PA degree. We all know it is not and you will never convince anyone except yourself.

Since you keep saying inaccurate stuff, click on my name, and find a post where I said RN = PA. Just find one. Otherwise stop lying, I’ve never said anything about theory or anything close to what your stating. You sound like a troll, prove you’re not.
 
I also took both. In my program the classes are indistinguishable as far as A&P1/2, micro, and patho. I cant speak to chemistry.

That’s true for most of the nurses I know. They all took the same A and P, same patho phys, and the same micro. Chemistry wasn’t the same, but micro was micro. Pretty easy anyway, but I never saw my university’s RN program prereqs parsed as anything other than the real micro, A and P, and patho. But I do remember seeing “chemistry survey for health professions”, which was code for “easy chemistry”. But I don’t know... Medex PA program lists “microbiology for health professions” as qualifying for their micro, so maybe that’s one of those “easy” micros they are taking about.
 
That’s true for most of the nurses I know. They all took the same A and P, same patho phys, and the same micro. Chemistry wasn’t the same, but micro was micro. Pretty easy anyway, but I never saw my university’s RN program prereqs parsed as anything other than the real micro, A and P, and patho. But I do remember seeing “chemistry survey for health professions”, which was code for “easy chemistry”. But I don’t know... Medex PA program lists “microbiology for health professions” as qualifying for their micro, so maybe that’s one of those “easy” micros they are taking about.

Yes, I can’t speak to chemistry, but I can to those courses, because I took them all at both types of schools. Is physics going to make you a good PA? Why is that even a thing?
 
@pamac @IknowImnotadoctor

It's not about you guys. We are talking about 3 different professions that attract different caliber of individuals. PA/MD(DO) are limited access professions i.e you have to beat your competitions and for the most part, your competitions are respectable college students.
 
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@pamac @IknowImnotadoctor

It's not about you guys. We are talking about 3 different professions that attract different caliber of individuals. PA/MD(DO) are limited access professions i.e you have to beat your competitions and for the most part, your competitions are respectable college students.

There's truth to that. However, if we are talking about what makes a PA a better clinician than a NP, which lets face it, is where all these conversations end up at, are physics and ochem really the difference? I can concede that PA programs are more rigorous than NP programs. I'd be a troll to say differently. However, most NP's come with many years of nursing experience, and when they walk into a hospital/clinic they know how to assess patients and they know how to interface with the system. PA and NP both have their advantages and disadvantages, it comes down to the individual person you are looking at and how motivated they are to learn, because neither of these school's preparations prepare them to step into the clinical setting and immediately start taking care of patients.
 
Since you keep saying inaccurate stuff, click on my name, and find a post where I said RN = PA. Just find one. Otherwise stop lying, I’ve never said anything about theory or anything close to what your stating. You sound like a troll, prove you’re not.
Just because you did not come out and state directly RN = PA, your post are implying this in everything you say. I am done with this conversation and will not discuss this anymore with you. Have a good one.
 
There's truth to that. However, if we are talking about what makes a PA a better clinician than a NP, which lets face it, is where all these conversations end up at, are physics and ochem really the difference? I can concede that PA programs are more rigorous than NP programs. I'd be a troll to say differently. However, most NP's come with many years of nursing experience, and when they walk into a hospital/clinic they know how to assess patients and they know how to interface with the system. PA and NP both have their advantages and disadvantages, it comes down to the individual person you are looking at and how motivated they are to learn, because neither of these school's preparations prepare them to step into the clinical setting and immediately start taking care of patients.
I agree with you to an extent. Not going to go into details why I disagree in some instances... I was mostly answering the other poster who said most NP could have been physicians had they have the drive... That is inaccurate from interactions I have had with NP and RN going to NP school now. You guys probably attended good NP school where students are smart and driven, but that is probably a minority of your profession... I have tutored a lot of RNs and most of them would have had a tough time getting into med school and nothing is wrong with that. Once I got into med school, I quickly realized most of my classmates are smarter and more driven than me--and nothing is wrong with that either.
 
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That’s true for most of the nurses I know. They all took the same A and P, same patho phys, and the same micro. Chemistry wasn’t the same, but micro was micro. Pretty easy anyway, but I never saw my university’s RN program prereqs parsed as anything other than the real micro, A and P, and patho. But I do remember seeing “chemistry survey for health professions”, which was code for “easy chemistry”. But I don’t know... Medex PA program lists “microbiology for health professions” as qualifying for their micro, so maybe that’s one of those “easy” micros they are taking about.
You forgot to say the other classes they listed:
Common courses that meet MEDEX Microbiology prerequisites:
  • General Microbiology
  • Medical Microbiology
  • Microbiology for Health Professions
  • Biology of microorganisms
You are so close minded that you cannot even comment on the right micro class stating maybe that's one of the easy classes when you see below that is not what they mean. Give me a break. You are trying to find a way that your RN/NP pre-reqs are equal to PA and you will never find that, give it up man. We all know FNP pre-req are much easier and FNP school is much easier. All the RN schools around here do not take the same A & P classes. The pre-PA/pre-Med A & P are two separate courses at a 300 level with a cadaver lab (yes for undergrad.). All the RNs take anatomy via the Kinesiology department (200 level, applied anatomy). Also, you are forgetting PA schools require a B or higher in all their classes where RN school require C or higher with an overall GPA or 2.50. Compare this to a minimum or 3.0, with most applications for PA school have a 3.4 or higher.
 
I’m sticking to my guns on the notion that intelligence isn’t as big of a factor for medical school compared to drive, but I think that so many people get their priorities smashed very early in life, which includes simply not applying themselves. You can call that what you want, but I think it’s a bit of a stretch to imply that it is intellect driving the disparity. You’ll also probably find more well off kids able to make it to medical school than the folks who gravitated towards nursing, but that’s a discussion that is it’s own can of worms.
 
You forgot to say the other classes they listed:
Common courses that meet MEDEX Microbiology prerequisites:
  • General Microbiology
  • Medical Microbiology
  • Microbiology for Health Professions
  • Biology of microorganisms
You are so close minded that you cannot even comment on the right micro class stating maybe that's one of the easy classes when you see below that is not what they mean. Give me a break. You are trying to find a way that your RN/NP pre-reqs are equal to PA and you will never find that, give it up man. We all know FNP pre-req are much easier and FNP school is much easier. All the RN schools around here do not take the same A & P classes. The pre-PA/pre-Med A & P are two separate courses at a 300 level with a cadaver lab (yes for undergrad.). All the RNs take anatomy via the Kinesiology department (200 level, applied anatomy). Also, you are forgetting PA schools require a B or higher in all their classes where RN school require C or higher with an overall GPA or 2.50. Compare this to a minimum or 3.0, with most applications for PA school have a 3.4 or higher.

You are painting every school with a broad brush boatswain. Except for the leniency you give to PA programs. I posted program prereqs that matched what I said about the prerequisites there having the same classes as what RNs take, which is true in those cases. I don’t care what goes on where you are. I found two of the best PA programs in the US and posted their own Links to their prerequisites. I can’t comment on what I don’t know, and all I know is that the microbiology and A and P that U of U and U of W demands is the same as what the micro nurses take. I’ve taken A and P, micro, and patho phys, and there were pre meds, pre PAs, and pre nurses taking those classes. I’ve attended several universities for several degrees. That’s what I’ve seen in the catalogs. There is nothing fancy about general microbiology. It’s not even a weed out class. Neither is A & P.

Hey, even I was surprised to see how easy the prerequisites were for those two schools. When I interviewed for Medex, I assumed everyone around me had as much biology as I did, but most of them probably didn’t even have genetics.
 
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Just because you did not come out and state directly RN = PA, your post are implying this in everything you say. I am done with this conversation and will not discuss this anymore with you. Have a good one.

Read my posts and found you were wrong but can’t admit it? Thanks for posting.
 
I agree with you to an extent. Not going to go into details why I disagree in some instances... I was mostly answering the other poster who said most NP could have been physicians had they have the drive... That is inaccurate from interactions I have had with NP and RN going to NP school now. You guys probably attended good NP school where students are smart and driven, but that is probably a minority of your profession... I have tutored a lot of RNs and most of them would have had a tough time getting into med school and nothing is wrong with that. Once I got into med school, I quickly realized most of my classmates are smarter and more driven than me--and nothing is wrong with that either.

I didn’t say that. I don’t think this is provable. I’ve trained nurses both as a college instructor and at the bedside as a preceptor. Nursing is challenging, has significant barriers to entry, and more people who attempt to become a nurse fail than pass. NP schools take this into consideration during their programs. I think discussing hypotheticals about different professions intelligence makes us all look small.
 
I had all the pre med/ pre dental prerequisites and am an NP. Also applied to PA programs, so I know the landscape. And yes, many NPs are woefully short of the kind of coursework even PAs would take to be able to be competitive in PA school. Having had those prereqs, I was basically able to walk into nursing school, as many of the nursing prereqs were what we called “survey” classes. So their chemistry requirements weren’t the upper division general chem that would be required for medical school. However, I do remember my patho class being the same overall between the PA and RNs. Chemistry, no way... and it actually would have hurt me to have done bad in my upper division chemistry and then had to compete against someone taking a nursing survey if they had higher marks. I remember applying to nursing school and being a bit frustrated because I knew my B+ in a way harder chemistry class was up against someone who took the easier pre nursing survey class. But I also remember being similarly frustrated that I was applying to Pa school as a biology major who took mostly hard classes, and being up against business majors who took only the hard science prereqs, and got A’s in them because they were taking relatively easy business coursework.

Here are two premier PA program prerequisite lists:






These programs don’t really require much more than most RN programs. You’ll see the same anat and phys classes. Even U of U allows into to chemistry to count. Those lists are actually shockingly stark compared to what has been suggested. Those are actually much closer to RN prereqs than MD prereqs.
You must not be reading correctly cause I looked up all the classes with the links you gave me and the only classes that are the same is A&P and Micro. The patho class is Nurs 2270 see the link = https://nursing.utah.edu/programs/documents/bachelors_prereq_chart.pdf
The biology is much easier and shorter same way is 1 simple "elementary chemistry" compared to eight semesters of chemistry.
Required Courses:
  • Human Anatomy, four semester credits - Must be human and with a lab; animal or comparative anatomy courses are not accepted. UPAP will accept a three-semester credit human anatomy class in lieu of the four-semester credit requirement (such as that offered by BYU Provo), but only if a lab was taken as a part of the class, and the class is accepted for science majors.
  • Human Physiology, four semester credits - Must be human; no other physiology courses are accepted,
- or -
  • Anatomy and Physiology I and II, totaling eight semester credits - As a combined full year series is accepted in lieu of separate anatomy and physiology courses.
A mixed combination of the above courses will not be accepted. Applicants must take AP I & II or human anatomy and human physiology separately to meet the requirement. (Example: AP I [four credits] + Physiology [four credits] = a mixed combination. The candidate would be considered short on anatomy credit)
Human anatomy and human physiology courses taken from exercise science, sports science, or kinesiology departments are not accepted.
  • Biology, four semester credits, lab credit can be included All biology coursework with a relationship to the human body is accepted. Microbiology is most strongly recommended. General biology, cell, genetics and some intro classes are other examples of acceptable biology courses.
  • Chemistry, eight semester credits, lab credit can be included All chemistry coursework is accepted, including intro, general, inorganic, organic and biochemistry.
Also, with nursing you get the pre-reqs and get good grades and you are most likely in. With PA these are the bare minimum (plus you have to have a B in all pre-reqs NOT a C for nursing) + you have to have labs with all the sciences which is even more work and harder (I have done them all including micro (w/ lab), genetics (w/lab), Anatomy and Physiology (both with labs, separate classes), molecular biology (with lab), cardiopulm physio, patho, immunology, gen chem 1/2 (with lab), organic 1/2 (with lab), biochem 1 (with lab), physics 1/2 (with lab), biostats (500 level), calculus 1. Now you don't have to take all these classes but most of the PA students will take a combo of these with labs and with a B or higher to be competitive. Unlike nursing, you HAVE to go above the pre-reqs to beat the other applicants out. I went to a state meeting for PAs last night and a local PA professor updated us on the school and 700 people have already applied (they just opened the application cycle) for 30 seats! Yes, you cannot just have the bare minimum pre-reqs.
4. Health Care Experience (U of U).
A minimum of 2,000 hours of health care experience, which is at least one year full-time equivalent, as of the August 1 application deadline is required for an applicant to be considered. The national average for healthcare experience is in the 4000 to 5000 hour range. We will project hours to the deadline for early applicants, and we do encourage applicants to apply early.
All forms of health care experience* are accepted and considered toward the minimum requirement, with direct hands-on patient care experience being most preferred. Student practicum experience is not accepted (undergraduate or certification training), however, medically-related graduate practicum experience is accepted on a case-by-case basis.
 
Read my posts and found you were wrong but can’t admit it? Thanks for posting.
No did not waste my time reading them and nothing to admit. Your post still imply RN = PA with your statements. Just give it up man. We are done with this conversation.
 
I didn’t say that. I don’t think this is provable. I’ve trained nurses both as a college instructor and at the bedside as a preceptor. Nursing is challenging, has significant barriers to entry, and more people who attempt to become a nurse fail than pass. NP schools take this into consideration during their programs. I think discussing hypotheticals about different professions intelligence makes us all look small.
I guess I have probably lived in states that are very lax when it comes to barriers to entry
 
You must not be reading correctly cause I looked up all the classes with the links you gave me and the only classes that are the same is A&P and Micro. The patho class is Nurs 2270 see the link = https://nursing.utah.edu/programs/documents/bachelors_prereq_chart.pdf
The biology is much easier and shorter same way is 1 simple "elementary chemistry" compared to eight semesters of chemistry.
Required Courses:
  • Human Anatomy, four semester credits - Must be human and with a lab; animal or comparative anatomy courses are not accepted. UPAP will accept a three-semester credit human anatomy class in lieu of the four-semester credit requirement (such as that offered by BYU Provo), but only if a lab was taken as a part of the class, and the class is accepted for science majors.
  • Human Physiology, four semester credits - Must be human; no other physiology courses are accepted,
- or -
  • Anatomy and Physiology I and II, totaling eight semester credits - As a combined full year series is accepted in lieu of separate anatomy and physiology courses.
A mixed combination of the above courses will not be accepted. Applicants must take AP I & II or human anatomy and human physiology separately to meet the requirement. (Example: AP I [four credits] + Physiology [four credits] = a mixed combination. The candidate would be considered short on anatomy credit)
Human anatomy and human physiology courses taken from exercise science, sports science, or kinesiology departments are not accepted.
  • Biology, four semester credits, lab credit can be included All biology coursework with a relationship to the human body is accepted. Microbiology is most strongly recommended. General biology, cell, genetics and some intro classes are other examples of acceptable biology courses.
  • Chemistry, eight semester credits, lab credit can be included All chemistry coursework is accepted, including intro, general, inorganic, organic and biochemistry.
Also, with nursing you get the pre-reqs and get good grades and you are most likely in. With PA these are the bare minimum (plus you have to have a B in all pre-reqs NOT a C for nursing) + you have to have labs with all the sciences which is even more work and harder (I have done them all including micro (w/ lab), genetics (w/lab), Anatomy and Physiology (both with labs, separate classes), molecular biology (with lab), cardiopulm physio, patho, immunology, gen chem 1/2 (with lab), organic 1/2 (with lab), biochem 1 (with lab), physics 1/2 (with lab), biostats (500 level), calculus 1. Now you don't have to take all these classes but most of the PA students will take a combo of these with labs and with a B or higher to be competitive. Unlike nursing, you HAVE to go above the pre-reqs to beat the other applicants out. I went to a state meeting for PAs last night and a local PA professor updated us on the school and 700 people have already applied (they just opened the application cycle) for 30 seats! Yes, you cannot just have the bare minimum pre-reqs.
4. Health Care Experience (U of U).
A minimum of 2,000 hours of health care experience, which is at least one year full-time equivalent, as of the August 1 application deadline is required for an applicant to be considered. The national average for healthcare experience is in the 4000 to 5000 hour range. We will project hours to the deadline for early applicants, and we do encourage applicants to apply early.
All forms of health care experience* are accepted and considered toward the minimum requirement, with direct hands-on patient care experience being most preferred. Student practicum experience is not accepted (undergraduate or certification training), however, medically-related graduate practicum experience is accepted on a case-by-case basis.

A recent post in the medical school forums asked if volunteering to help disabled kids with horseback riding classes counted as HCE. The answer was yes. You can’t compare that to the gold standard of HCE, which is nursing. Now I’m not stating that this is the kind of HCE all PA students have, only that these hours would count. Most of our volunteers in the ICU study during their hours and occasionally answer the phone and forward the call to the wrong nurse. Any RN has significant HCE before application to NP school, even if that RN went straight through to NP, they still had to be a RN first, with its own requirements.
 
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No did not waste my time reading them and nothing to admit. Your post still imply RN = PA with your statements. Just give it up man. We are done with this conversation.

You attack me for statements I didn’t make and then can’t even admit you’re wrong? You’ll fit in nicely here on SDN ;)
 
I guess I have probably lived in states that are very lax when it comes to barriers to entry

I did a associates program initially, which was very expensive and direct entry. 60 students started, and 7 graduated on time. That’s the extreme of the failure rates. As a whole, about half of people who start the path to nursing fail.
 
I didn’t say that. I don’t think this is provable. I’ve trained nurses both as a college instructor and at the bedside as a preceptor. Nursing is challenging, has significant barriers to entry, and more people who attempt to become a nurse fail than pass. NP schools take this into consideration during their programs. I think discussing hypotheticals about different professions intelligence makes us all look small.
No it is a fact about the nursing schools. Look at all the online RN to BSN, and all the associate level RN programs that require next to nothing. You are telling use about the best of the best BSN programs requiring nursing patho. class which you will not find in almost every single nursing program. The local community, hospital (two of them) in my area all have RN programs and their requirements are:
ADMISSIONS REQUIREMENTS
In addition to completing the admissions checklist above, you must have a cumulative GPA of 2.7+ and prerequisite GPA of 2.7+ to meet program admission criteria.
PRE-REQUISITE COURSES
Chemistry for Allied Health (4 credit hours, with lab) or Principles of Chemistry (4 credit hours, with lab)
Anatomy & Physiology I (4 credit hours, with lab)
Anatomy & Physiology II (4 credit hours, with lab)
Microbiology (minimum 3 credit hours with lab)

That is it. Nothing else. There is no extra stuff you have to do. You are not fighting for admissions once per year and if you don't get in then you have to re-apply. With nursing, you are put in the the fall semester of the 2022 class or the summer semester of the 2023 class, you don't have to re-apply, you met the requirements and most likely you are in or wait-listed for a different semester or year. This goes for the NP programs that are all over the country with all their online classes. With PA this is not how it works and you know it. Do you think Walden, Regis, Capella, etc are significant barriers to nursing? Even every state college and the big names have easy FNP programs to get into. I don't find this hard when you see below from Capella:
Admission Requirements
  • Nursing diploma or associate's degree in nursing.
  • Your official transcripts, reflecting a minimum grade point average of 2.0 or higher on a 4.0 scale.
  • RN license verification and work experience acknowledgement form that verifies:
    • Your current, unrestricted RN license (or its equivalent) to practice in the United States.
  • A $50 nonrefundable application fee. Fee is required to initiate an application for admission and must be paid as part of the application process. The fee covers the cost of transcript requests, transcript evaluation, and other administrative costs.
  • Applicants who do not have any credits eligible for transfer must successfully complete a university-approved reading and writing assessment. By evaluating your skills prior to your first course, Capella can more effectively provide resources to prepare you for a successful learning experience.
  • SAT and ACT are not required for admission.
 
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