People with dual physician parents - are you rich?

[jambro]

The only thing stopping someone from being rich in America is themselves. And the definition of rich is not what some economist or someone demagoging class warfare tells me it is. It's a very personal thing.

I'll definitely disagree on this one; the majority of jobs absolutely necessary to society pay poorly and they're not gonna be rich (relative to american standards). Not everyone can be a doc or CS or banker or business owner

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[jamaica jan sun princess]

That's 4.1k/mo on additional child-rearing services. 49k a year. 50% higher than the median income in the US. The ability to do that I count as rich (and would consider a household income of 220k as rich as well, that's 3x the income my household of 6 had growing up in NYC and I considered myself middle/lower-middle class).

This is of course just my opinion.

I believe VA is saying they went with a nanny at least partially due to how expensive daycare was. Not both a nanny and daycare. $26,400 a year, 38.4% of the median household income($68,703) in the US.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I believe VA is saying they went with a nanny, at least partially due to how expensive daycare was. Not both a nanny and daycare. $26,400 a year, 38.4% of the median household income($68,703) in the US.

Yep

 

[Splenda88]

"If you can afford to pay a full time nanny to watch your kids, you are rich. You might not be wealthy, but you are rich"

Totally ridiculous statement....Poor/middle class do this every day so they can earn a living even though they are forced to pay for child care, which at the end of the day may not mean a lot left over from their income, but they have no other choice......would you rather they leave their children home alone?. You really sound like you have no idea.

If you are referencing a live-in nanny with chefs and the like, that is totally different and likely would require high incomes to afford that and yes, then you are probably "rich."

I was referencing a live-in nanny (not something like daycare)...

 

[Splenda88]

This is exactly my plan. High W2 earnings coming directly from your time is the least-efficient way of being "rich". Gotta use the earnings to invest in equities and purchase real estate so you can benefit from the rigged system like all the rest of the upper class.

Why do you say it's rigged?

 

[jambro]

Why do you say it's rigged?

Just in the sense that the same money made through different ways can result in significantly less money take-home. For instance, most physicians are not paid via stock options, and yet for individuals for whom this is big factor in compensation (tech) they can save a bunch due to the delta between cap. gains and regular income tax for no real reason just because it's written that way. Also, the insane tax breaks that come from owning real estate (you can depreciate a place you just bought and count that against regular income if you have real estate professional status), rolling over the profits from one property into another without paying taxes, etc. These things just don't exist for regular W2 wage earners.

 

[AnonymousDoctorGuyPerson]

I believe VA is saying they went with a nanny at least partially due to how expensive daycare was. Not both a nanny and daycare. $26,400 a year, 38.4% of the median household income($68,703) in the US.

Ah my misunderstanding. My point still stands, though. It's of course perspective, and it's how someone from my perspective would view it. 220k household income / being able to put 40% of the median household income towards a nanny = rich, or if you want a softer word "quite well off." As I'm sure we've learned from the course of this thread, what people from low-income/lower middle class families call rich is different than what upper-middle class folks call rich.

Rich is always going to be people above you.

 

[Splenda88]

Opinion | How to Get Really Rich! (Published 2021)

Getting into the right job is the key.

www.nytimes.com

Lol

 

[Deecee2DO]

this is the most ridiculous thread ever lmao i cant stop reading it

 

[SurfingDoctor]

Yes. But I can't answer in more detail.... busy yachting...

 

[Neopolymath]

Yes. But I can't answer in more detail.... busy yachting...

To be fair, I don't wear white while sailing because the foredeck of even a clean boat will stain your chinos.

/Posts that are serious but also not serious

 

[blockrudder1]

I've been very poor, wealthy, and homeless. More assets = better life, as long as social support is solid. As a kid, its undeniably a fast track to a more productive life. But resiliency is priceless IMO

 

[proudofmykids]

I mean, a full-time dual physician couple is making at least 400k and easily up to a million plus if they’re both specialists, so I’d say an easy yes.

Maybe not typical, but not exactly rare either

I am learning to moderate my views of middle class vs upper middle vs upper/rich. When you live in towns or neighborhoods with similar people,it is easy for your view to get heavily skewed from the much broader reality.

If you do some research, in the US, average household income is $85k/ year,
while the Median US household income is a out $72K.
Too 10percentile is about $200K household income.

So when you say common, it is likely quite uncommon simply based on the fact that only 10% or fewer of households could afford that lifestyle.

 

[Splenda88]

I am learning to moderate my views of middle class vs upper middle vs upper/rich. When you live in towns or neighborhoods with similar people,it is easy for your view to get heavily skewed from the much broader reality.

If you do some research, in the US, average household income is $85k/ year,
while the Median US household income is a out $72K.
Too 10percentile is about $200K household income.

So when you say common, it is likely quite uncommon simply based on the fact that only 10% or fewer of households could afford that lifestyle.

Where did you get these stats? I saw ~69k/yr as median household income...

 

[proudofmykids]

The vast majority of doctors fall into the upper middle class. Not worrying about day to day bills, can save for their kids college and their retirement, can splurge in some (but not all) areas of life including things like nice cars or more home then needed or expensive hobbies. Is that rich? compared to the current middle class yes, we have the privilege of not worrying about most bills. But rich is a binary construct and as such not a great way to measure it. I think the middle, upper middle, upper class aspect captures it a lot better and doctors are solidly upper middle.

I think this description solidly falls into the viewpoint of a typical Gen X'er, maybe Gen Y.

It is easy to use this very comfortable life style as the yardstick of Upper Middle Class, and not Upper Class because you don't necessarily own multiple homes, boats, planes,or continuous years of private school education for all children, $100k/yr country clubs etc, adding up to hundreds of thousands of dollars a year more combind expense than what you describe.

However, if you look at my previous post, the numbers do not justify this Upper Class Class nomenclature when far less than ten percent of households have this lifestyle you describe at Upper Middle Class. Don't get me wrong, I too had this perspective but have changed it ever since Obama's first campaign with targets at the top Upper 5% households and looked into the numbers. (Remember, once he got realistic with his numbers he realized it wasn't just the top 1%'ers as he claimed in his campaign). I always said the new progreseive government bias against the top 10% upper middle class ($200k family income) was killing the American dream, since two working college educated parents with white collar jobs, likely earned this together by mid-career. To ramp taxes on what many Americans would consider a very plausible path through life could easily deminish the drive to achieve it only to to be faced with higher progressive taxes.

I also, wanted to point out for many here on SDN, that despite having this lifestyle and income level of the top 5-10% as described above, it is still rather uncommon for a family to fully pay for the entire private undergraduate education of the 2.3 children of the family which would come to about $650K. These families also look toward attempting to maintain a similar lifestyle with less income at retirement, mostly through a paid off mortgage and no more expenses from children etc. If people don't think $650k is a ton of money to sock away for a family earning $250k or $300k a year, it's insane. Nevermind paying for graduate school when the child would have an entire 30+ year career to pay it back, versus a parent in the 7th inning of their career paying for it and sacrificing retirement funds.

 

[proudofmykids]

I recommend you do some research and look up the definition of what defines being "rich" or upper class in this country. Most doctors do not fall under this categorization, and certainly making $220k or even $500k a year would not put you in this category (especially those living in big cities where cost of living is high). It is obviously subjective, but most sociologists/economists define people in this category to have a majority of their income coming from assets, investments and capital gains rather than wages and salaries.

"Many heirs to fortunes, top business executives, CEOs, successful venture capitalists, persons born into high society, and celebrities may be considered members of the upper class. Some prominent and high-rung professionals may also be included if they attain great influence and wealth. The main distinguishing feature of this class, which includes an estimated 1% of the population, is the source of income. While the vast majority of people and households derive their income from wages or salaries, those in the upper class derive their primary income from investments and capital gains"

Perhaps a physician who lives frugally and saves a majority of their income over many years can eventually reach this point over many years of practice. Of course we know from human nature that most people don't live like that and enjoy spending money as soon as they get it.

This is a Very traditional view.
But when using the subjective terms of lower, middle and upper class, how is it fair to use only 1% of households that meet this description, to reflect what implies 1/3 of households?

 

[proudofmykids]

Where did you get these stats? I saw ~69k/yr as median household income...

I've seen 66-76k, I picked a number roughly in the middle which ismwhy I said About $X

 

[jambro]

This is a Very traditional view.
But when using the subjective terms of lower, middle and upper class, how is it fair to use only 1% of households that meet this description, to reflect what implies 1/3 of households?

I think it's completely incorrect to say that lower = bottom 1/3, middle = middle 1/3, and upper = top 1/3. I don't think anyone has historically used that definition. Note that I'm not saying physicians don't earn a very high salary and could not easily be very rich if they play their cards right. It's just that the vast majority of them are not "upper class".

 

[NY_Med]

A kid in my class with dual physician parents who made 800-900k tried to pass off his family as “upper middle class.” We shot that down quick.

My parents gross 60k per year and I try to pass myself off as middle class...

Something doesn't add up here.

 

[swallery]

If they say they aren't, they just don't realize they are in fact rich.


A family of 4-5 with an income over 200k goes down as rich in my book, at least, and I'm from NYC.

Hi, so I grew up fairly meager, in a small trailer house in the middle of no where. I now do very well as a neurologist, certainly in the top 3%, and always dreamed that anyone over $100+ was "rich". I will assure you this is not necessarily true at all. Many physicians have good cash flow but are living in debt. Cash flow and rich should never be used in the same sentence. A friend of mine just retired at age 49, has a little lake cabin and everything he wants/needs without any debt. HE is rich. He was a prison guard and never went to college and never made more than $50k a year. Who is the rich one? I have debt and will work a long while after him. I am starting a podcast called "Confessions of a Financial Idiot" in a few months. Being happy is the richest you can ever be. Find your happiness first, wealth will come with a good sense of direction.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Debt is tyranny. You get up every day and go to work to pay someone else, before you get paid. Debt can be necessary at times, and you should retire it as quickly as possible, but you have to look at ROI.

 

[Splenda88]

Most physicians can afford to retire after working 12-15 yrs if they want to.

You only need a paid off home and 2 mil in a high dividend index fund like SCHD

 

[very_worried]

Most physicians can afford to retire after working 12-15 yrs if they want to.

You only need a paid off home and 2 mil in a high dividend index fund like SCHD

My definition of "rich" is been able to decide on Friday afternoon to fly to Europe for the weekend (flying first class, of course), and not consider it to be something extraordinary. Anyone traveling Economy or Business class on a vacation is not rich. Any "two doctor parents" folks here: when you fly for a family vacation outside of the country, to you travel Economy, Business, of First class?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

15 yrs might be a little on the light side to pay off a house, student loans and accumulate 2 million in monetary assets. You would have to live quite frugally, like resident frugal to achieve this. Secondly, 2 million is not enough to retire on for 40 yrs. Inflation will eat away at that. I would estimate 40 yr into retirement, say mid 80s for this doc retiring 15 yrs ouf of residency, 80 k of investments income, 4% withdrawal each yr from 2 million Nest egg today, , would need about 300k withdrawal to match 80k in today's dollars. The nest egg of 2 million is not big enough to finance that. There are calculators for these questions and I would recommend using them before making these kind of decisions.

 

[Splenda88]

15 yrs might be a little on the light side to pay off a house, student loans and accumulate 2 million in monetary assets. You would have to live quite frugally, like resident frugal to achieve this. Secondly, 2 million is not enough to retire on for 40 yrs. Inflation will eat away at that. I would estimate 40 yr into retirement, say mid 80s for this doc retiring 15 yrs ouf of residency, 80 k of investments income, 4% withdrawal each yr from 2 million Nest egg today, , would need about 300k withdrawal to match 80k in today's dollars. The nest egg of 2 million is not big enough to finance that. There are calculators for these questions and I would recommend using them before making these kind of decisions.

Assuming that this physician has a salary of 300k... and has 250k student debt. Net pay after taxes, health insurance etc... will be ~180k/yr minus 30k/yr (for student loan repayment)... You are left with 150k. Live on 80k (~$6700/month), which is more than enough by most people standard. That is not living like resident as I have a family of 4 living on ~45k/yr ($3750/month) right now. Invest the 70k/year and you will accumulate ~2 mil in 15 yrs (average ROI 8%/yr).

Compound Interest Calculator | Investor.gov

Determine how much your money can grow using the power of compound interest.

www.investor.gov

You just have to buy a modest house (1600-2000 sqft) instead of mcMansion

704 Council Ln #UITSG4, Lexington, SC 29072 | Zillow

704 Council Ln #uitsg4, Lexington SC, is a Single Family home that contains 2251 sq ft and was built in 2021.It contains 3 bedrooms and 3 bathrooms. The Rent Zestimate for this Single Family is $2,184/mo, which has decreased by $42/mo in the last 30 days.

www.zillow.com

You can certainly live on a 3% withdrawal (5k/month) after your house is paid off and continue to let your $$$ grow, and adjust your withdrawal rate based on inflation.

One of my cousins (family of 3) did it at 41 (now 55 y/o) with a lot less than that. House paid off and has another two properties with a net cash flow of 30k/yr plus 600k in the market now. Total net worth now is at ~1.5 mil (It was ~ 900k) when he retired in 2007. His net worth had increased due to housing appreciation and increase stock market.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

Yes. But I can't answer in more detail.... busy yachting...

Follow up... details...


NSFW... but safe for LIFE...

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Assuming that this physician has a salary of 300k... and has 250k student debt. Net pay after taxes, health insurance etc... will be ~180k/yr minus 30k/yr (for student loan repayment)... You are left with 150k. Live on 80k (~$6700/month), which is more than enough by most people standard. That is not living like resident as I have a family of 4 living on ~45k/yr ($3750/month) right now. Invest the 70k/year and you will accumulate ~2 mil in 15 yrs (average ROI 8%/yr).

Compound Interest Calculator | Investor.gov

Determine how much your money can grow using the power of compound interest.

www.investor.gov

You just have to buy a modest house (1600-2000 sqft) instead of mcMansion

704 Council Ln #UITSG4, Lexington, SC 29072 | Zillow

704 Council Ln #uitsg4, Lexington SC, is a Single Family home that contains 2251 sq ft and was built in 2021.It contains 3 bedrooms and 3 bathrooms. The Rent Zestimate for this Single Family is $2,184/mo, which has decreased by $42/mo in the last 30 days.

www.zillow.com

You can certainly live on a 3% withdrawal (5k/month) after your house is paid off and continue to let your $$$ grow, and adjust your withdrawal rate based on inflation.

One of my cousins (family of 3) did it at 41 (now 55 y/o) with a lot less than that. House paid off and has another two properties with a net cash flow of 30k/yr plus 600k in the market now. Total net worth now is at ~1.5 mil (It was ~ 900k) when he retired in 2007. His net worth had increased due to housing appreciation and increase stock market.

That little detail matters...

 

[proudofmykids]

Most physicians can afford to retire after working 12-15 yrs if they want to.

You only need a paid off home and 2 mil in a high dividend index fund like SCHD

Do elaborate, your statement seems very very loose. I'm thinking you ok for one person, but close for two, and not doable for any children involved. I'll work through some rough numbers below.

What income are you assuming you would live on as you retire as you indicated at the age of ~45-50 with no social security for minimally 13 years?

Also, are you alotting for family/ children costs? Most people on SDN that anyone in upper middle class should be "obligated" to pay for their children's education (at leas UG).

Also, if you assume the physician in your case made $300K with aggregate 33% taxes bringing net to $200K, paying off a $500k property requires probably $60k/year extra to do it in a dozen years. (I didn't break out the calculator) bringing Net to $140K.

From this you are saying you are saving and growing a nest egg of $2M in 12-15 years?
Savings rate required over 15 years at 8%/yr avg = $6000/Month =$72K/yr
Leaving $68K for all living expenses except house P&I. Below are some fixed cost estimates, and you'll see you would be ok for a single person.

You can use a quick annuity calculator, $2M will generate about $135K annual income for 30 Years. All of which will likely be taxed especially if accessing before legal retirement age. Assume 28% total tax rate leaving $97K from the 135k.

Look at rough fixed costs:
In many states, property taxes alone are >2% of fair market value. =$10K/yr
Home insurance on a $500K property = $1.5k/yr
Home maintenance long term average = $4k/yr
Utilities = $5k/yr
Auto asset ownership = $5k/year
Auto insurance = $1K/yr
Avg Auto maintenance and gas (12k miles/yr) = $4k/yr
HEALTH Insurance for 1 person catastrophic plan = $7k/yr
--------
= $37k for one person, and $54k for a couple
Balance = $43k -$60k per year descretionary, food and variable health etc.
= Pretty doable, except for the 30 year limit with clock starting before 50.
Highly not likely doable if you have any children that require statistically $200k to raise for first 18 years of life (average >$16k/yr) plus any medication expense you are liking to pay.

 

[AnonymousDoctorGuyPerson]

Hi, so I grew up fairly meager, in a small trailer house in the middle of no where. I now do very well as a neurologist, certainly in the top 3%, and always dreamed that anyone over $100+ was "rich". I will assure you this is not necessarily true at all. Many physicians have good cash flow but are living in debt. Cash flow and rich should never be used in the same sentence. A friend of mine just retired at age 49, has a little lake cabin and everything he wants/needs without any debt. HE is rich. He was a prison guard and never went to college and never made more than $50k a year. Who is the rich one? I have debt and will work a long while after him. I am starting a podcast called "Confessions of a Financial Idiot" in a few months. Being happy is the richest you can ever be. Find your happiness first, wealth will come with a good sense of direction.

I'm quite happy as is, and know I will be 'rich' by my standards after I become a physician. Longer than many of my peers, but still will happen. And I'm quite grateful to have that opportunity.

In fact, at the rate I'm making now from tutoring + income from my summer job I'll be out of private student debt by sometime during M2 so I feel I'm on a good path as at least public loans have a path for forgiveness.

 

[Splenda88]

That little detail matters...

I don't think it matters... because 2 mil in index with high dividend can generate more than 2 properties with net a net cash of 30k + 600k in stock/index.

Anyway, my plan is to have ny house paid off plus 2 properties with a net cash for of 30k+ and another 2 mil in index fund, 401k, roth


Doctors are really out of touch if they think there is no way one can retire at 45 with your house paid off and another 2 mil in index...

 

[CorgiLoaf]

I knew a kid back in high school who has dual physician parents. Not exactly sure what they did but I know they co-owned a practice(s?) together. They had a nice multi-million dollar house by the beach and hosted lots of parties. Huge backyard - it was a blast playing airsoft there. Last I saw, they had Tesla Model S and some sort of BMW. They were a nice family but man, having a dual physician income must be nice.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Do elaborate, your statement seems very very loose. I'm thinking you ok for one person, but close for two, and not doable for any children involved. I'll work through some rough numbers below.

What income are you assuming you would live on as you retire as you indicated at the age of ~45-50 with no social security for minimally 13 years?

Also, are you alotting for family/ children costs? Most people on SDN that anyone in upper middle class should be "obligated" to pay for their children's education (at leas UG).

Also, if you assume the physician in your case made $300K with aggregate 33% taxes bringing net to $200K, paying off a $500k property requires probably $60k/year extra to do it in a dozen years. (I didn't break out the calculator) bringing Net to $140K.

From this you are saying you are saving and growing a nest egg of $2M in 12-15 years?
Savings rate required over 15 years at 8%/yr avg = $6000/Month =$72K/yr
Leaving $68K for all living expenses except house P&I. Below are some fixed cost estimates, and you'll see you would be ok for a single person.

You can use a quick annuity calculator, $2M will generate about $135K annual income for 30 Years. All of which will likely be taxed especially if accessing before legal retirement age. Assume 28% total tax rate leaving $97K from the 135k.

Look at rough fixed costs:
In many states, property taxes alone are >2% of fair market value. =$10K/yr
Home insurance on a $500K property = $1.5k/yr
Home maintenance long term average = $4k/yr
Utilities = $5k/yr
Auto asset ownership = $5k/year
Auto insurance = $1K/yr
Avg Auto maintenance and gas (12k miles/yr) = $4k/yr
HEALTH Insurance for 1 person catastrophic plan = $7k/yr
--------
= $37k for one person, and $54k for a couple
Balance = $43k -$60k per year descretionary, food and variable health etc.
= Pretty doable, except for the 30 year limit with clock starting before 50.
Highly not likely doable if you have any children that require statistically $200k to raise for first 18 years of life (average >$16k/yr) plus any medication expense you are liking to pay.

I think that annual annuity income is a little high, but didn't run it myself. Plus, if you put your 2 mil in a 30 yr annuity at age 40, it stops paying when you're 70. Kinda young to run out. Most planners are figuring you should want your money to last till 90 or 99. I guess it's theoretically doable, but I didn't want to eat Raman Noodles for 15 yrs and get cancer at age 50. I know several people who died at 62 or younger and never got to retire.. It's all about balance. My wife and I have canceled 2 bucket list trips due to Covid and are getting concerned that health issues could crop up at any time waiting for things to open up. Whatever it is, it's good to have a plan.

Edit..I ran an annuity calculator and that number is doable. Just goes to $0 after 30 yrs.

 

[jambro]

I knew a kid back in high school who has dual physician parents. Not exactly sure what they did but I know they co-owned a practice(s?) together. They had a nice multi-million dollar house by the beach and hosted lots of parties. Huge backyard - it was a blast playing airsoft there. Last I saw, they had Tesla Model S and some sort of BMW. They were a nice family but man, having a dual physician income must be nice.

I'll come back to this thread in 10 years and let you know if its indeed as nice as it sounds...

 

[emergentmd]

Being rich or not all depends on your outflow vs inflow. That is the bottom line.

I have been an attending x 20 yrs, prob avg 400-450K/yr, married wife hasn't worked in 13 yrs when we had our first child, 3 kids all in private school from elementary likely through HS.

I would say we spend freely but not wasteful. If I had to guess, our living expenses are right at 200K/yr. I have made alot of financial mistakes on investment gambles.

We live in a City with a COL alittle above national avg and continues to climb.

Net worth prob 5M with good passive income, Live in a 5500 sq home. Once you get to 3-5M, your net worth grows exponentially. If money doubles in 8 yrs, then before 65, I should have 20M.

I feel rich but not wastefully rich. If I want a new Tesla, no problem. New boat, no problem. All my kids will have their schooling paid for. Each kid will likely get a new Tesla when they go to college (Just b/c I think they are safe/fantastic cars).

All doctors in 20 yrs should feel rich. Don't be wasteful, don't divorce, don't have a 2nd GF, invest smartly. Put 100K/yr in some form of investment and you will be set by 50.

Man, if we were dual MD homes, we prob would be at 10M right now.

 

[Splenda88]

Being rich or not all depends on your outflow vs inflow. That is the bottom line.

I have been an attending x 20 yrs, prob avg 400-450K/yr, married wife hasn't worked in 13 yrs when we had our first child, 3 kids all in private school from elementary likely through HS.

I would say we spend freely but not wasteful. If I had to guess, our living expenses are right at 200K/yr. I have made alot of financial mistakes on investment gambles.

We live in a City with a COL alittle above national avg and continues to climb.

Net worth prob 5M with good passive income, Live in a 5500 sq home. Once you get to 3-5M, your net worth grows exponentially. If money doubles in 8 yrs, then before 65, I should have 20M.

I feel rich but not wastefully rich. If I want a new Tesla, no problem. New boat, no problem. All my kids will have their schooling paid for. Each kid will likely get a new Tesla when they go to college (Just b/c I think they are safe/fantastic cars).

All doctors in 20 yrs should feel rich. Don't be wasteful, don't divorce, don't have a 2nd GF, invest smartly. Put 100K/yr in some form of investment and you will be set by 50.

Man, if we were dual MD homes, we prob would be at 10M right now.

Well, SDN will tell you 5 mil is not enough to retire. We are a bunch of out of touch people.

 

[jambro]

Well, SDN will tell you 5 mil is not enough to retire. We are a bunch of out of touch people.

Back of the envelope calc tells you thats 200k per year pre-tax... so some physicians might not be able to recreate their lifestyle on that. Really goes to show how important investing is considering even 5 mil might not be "enough" for someone. Probably why physicians work so long

 

[Splenda88]

Back of the envelope calc tells you thats 200k per year pre-tax... so some physicians might not be able to recreate their lifestyle on that. Really goes to show how important investing is considering even 5 mil might not be "enough" for someone. Probably why physicians work so long

I am willing to downgrade my lifestyle just to have more free time. I guess some people are not willing to do that.

 

[Neopolymath]

I am willing to downgrade my lifestyle just to have more free time. I guess some people are not willing to do that.

The happiest docs I know worked the longest but were part time for a long time.

We have a unique opportunity in medicine to have a rewarding and well paying job that can usually be scaled back. A middle manager can't ask their boss to go half time. We can and we should. Working part time keeps you young and engaged IMO.

I think most obsession with truly retiring early to be misguided for most individuals for one reason or another. I think the plan should be to save and then cut back from call and extra hours as early as possible. This has been discussed a lot in the anesthesiology subforum.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

The happiest docs I know worked the longest but were part time for a long time.

We have a unique opportunity in medicine to have a rewarding and well paying job that can usually be scaled back. A middle manager can't ask their boss to go half time. We can and we should. Working part time keeps you young and engaged IMO.

I think most obsession with truly retiring early to be misguided for most individuals for one reason or another. I think the plan should be to save and then cut back from call and extra hours as early as possible. This has been discussed a lot in the anesthesiology subforum.

That and be set up so you don't have to keep working a job you hate because you haven't saved enough to not work for several months while finding a new one.

 

[jambro]

The happiest docs I know worked the longest but were part time for a long time.

We have a unique opportunity in medicine to have a rewarding and well paying job that can usually be scaled back. A middle manager can't ask their boss to go half time. We can and we should. Working part time keeps you young and engaged IMO.

I think most obsession with truly retiring early to be misguided for most individuals for one reason or another. I think the plan should be to save and then cut back from call and extra hours as early as possible. This has been discussed a lot in the anesthesiology subforum.

My goal is to save/invest a crap-ton and be FI in 10-15 years, then be able to go part-time and let the investments ride for the next 20. Definitely a consideration to figure out what specialties I like that will let me do that

 

[Neopolymath]

My goal is to save/invest a crap-ton and be FI in 10-15 years, then be able to go part-time and let the investments ride for the next 20. Definitely a consideration to figure out what specialties I like that will let me do that

Good plan! Stay in the driver's seat. You are the only true advocate for you and your family. I wish more people in medicine understood this. Picking a specialty that can scale easily is an important consideration for many people. For example, I have far too many outside interests and a geographic constraint to take the chance on finding a perfect general surgery job. It became obvious that I needed to pursue a specialty that essentially guaranteed the ability to scale my workload.

In keeping with the thread, a lot of happiness for people with money isn't necessarily the direct, observable utility of money despite what some might say in this thread because they only think of extremes of income. I grew up on both sides of the spectrum. In my life, I went from a barely middle class life to being able to buy essentially anything I wanted. I can tell you, going on a $10k+ vacation was not any more enjoyable than the $300 ones I have been on, for example. Having the flexibility to go when I wanted and how I wanted was the enjoyable part.

After affording food, shelter, and a couple minor luxuries like a nice tv or a cheap vacation, it's the knowledge that you could say FU to a bad job and find another one because you have that 6 month emergency fund. You could have your spouse stay home. You could could put your kids through a fancy school. You could quit your job and go to med school. Knowing you are doing something because you want to makes life infinitely easier and keeps a bad attitude away.

Honestly, happiness is mostly a personality trait anyways. I grew up in a rough neighborhood with truly poor friends. There were happy people and there were miserable people. I know many "rich" people now. There are happy people and miserable people.

 

[percyeye]

Being rich or not all depends on your outflow vs inflow. That is the bottom line.

I have been an attending x 20 yrs, prob avg 400-450K/yr, married wife hasn't worked in 13 yrs when we had our first child, 3 kids all in private school from elementary likely through HS.

I would say we spend freely but not wasteful. If I had to guess, our living expenses are right at 200K/yr. I have made alot of financial mistakes on investment gambles.

We live in a City with a COL alittle above national avg and continues to climb.

Net worth prob 5M with good passive income, Live in a 5500 sq home. Once you get to 3-5M, your net worth grows exponentially. If money doubles in 8 yrs, then before 65, I should have 20M.

I feel rich but not wastefully rich. If I want a new Tesla, no problem. New boat, no problem. All my kids will have their schooling paid for. Each kid will likely get a new Tesla when they go to college (Just b/c I think they are safe/fantastic cars).

All doctors in 20 yrs should feel rich. Don't be wasteful, don't divorce, don't have a 2nd GF, invest smartly. Put 100K/yr in some form of investment and you will be set by 50.

Man, if we were dual MD homes, we prob would be at 10M right now.

Good stuff there.

What do you consider "good passive income?" And what do you get the passive income from? Real Estate?

Thanks

 

[Steve_Zissou]

My only real issue with my wealthier classmates is that many of them try to play up any minor difficulty they had in life in some sort of attempt to gain clout. "I struggled with this one minor thing and I overcame it! I struggled just as much as you guys who had parents making less than 50K a year, went to **** public schools, etc." I won't shame them for the luck of having wealthy parents, but don't try and kid yourself into believing you had a similarly challenging situation growing up and especially don't try to bull**** me about it. There is no pecking order to struggle and it doesn't make them look any better to those who can recognize their exaggerations.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Not trying to argue the point, but please explain how they are raised differently, like in what area...character, self-respect, decency, morality, just trying to see your point?

Malcom Gladwell speaks to this in his book "Outliers" when he is speaking about opportunity and the cumulative effects of opportunity. He talks about research that was done on school children to track whether wealthier kids learned more than poor kids during the school year. They found similar increases in knowledge (as measured by testing) and ability between both groups with the poor kids having slightly larger increases during the school year. The differences became clear over the summer. When returning from school the poorer kids lost points in things like reading, while the wealthier children gained points over the summer. Why is this? Well, they found that many of the poor kids did not have many books at home, while the wealthier kids had access to many books. The poor kids spent the summer doing whatever they wanted to because their parents were generally working long hours and could not afford childcare, while the wealthier kids went to camps where they were taught different sports and engaged in learning new skills and expanding their knowledge base.

These are all generalizations applied to the school populations they looked at, and they may not reflect any individual experience, but as a whole, the wealthier kids had more opportunities and therefore generally increased the achievement gap year by year.

 

[Neopolymath]

My only real issue with my wealthier classmates is that many of them try to play up any minor difficulty they had in life in some sort of attempt to gain clout. "I struggled with this one minor thing and I overcame it! I struggled just as much as you guys who had parents making less than 50K a year, went to **** public schools, etc." I won't shame them for the luck of having wealthy parents, but don't try and kid yourself into believing you had a similarly challenging situation growing up and especially don't try to bull**** me about it. There is no pecking order to struggle and it doesn't make them look any better to those who can recognize their exaggerations.

This is because we live in a weird oppression and poverty Olympics society currently.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

My only real issue with my wealthier classmates is that many of them try to play up any minor difficulty they had in life in some sort of attempt to gain clout. "I struggled with this one minor thing and I overcame it! I struggled just as much as you guys who had parents making less than 50K a year, went to **** public schools, etc." I won't shame them for the luck of having wealthy parents, but don't try and kid yourself into believing you had a similarly challenging situation growing up and especially don't try to bull**** me about it. There is no pecking order to struggle and it doesn't make them look any better to those who can recognize their exaggerations.

I would suggest its unwise to base everything on family income. My wife's family easily had 8-10X as much money as mine growing up, but without going into specifics, I wouldn't go back and trade places with her for anything.

 

[emergentmd]

What do you consider "good passive income?" And what do you get the passive income from? Real Estate?

Thanks

For me passive income is replacing my income and never touching retirement. I want my hard earned work and investment to grow. I want my kids to have a leg up that I never had. I want to create family legacy along with financial education where my grandkids grandkids will still reap from my one generation of work.

I likely will always work until physically unable, likely 2-3 dys a month just b/c I like my job and you know what happens when someone retires.

For me passive income would be 300K/yr. Mostly real estate and once I pay off the 1M in property debt, the properties will generate about 300K gross.

I also have a business that generates alot of passive income but there is no way I would bet on this as passive income in even 5 yrs.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

I would suggest its unwise to base everything on family income. My wife's family easily had 8-10X as much money as mine growing up, but without going into specifics, I wouldn't go back and trade places with her for anything.

I normally base it on what they say since I don’t know their family’s income. For example, the guy driving a $70,000 BMW that is a year old who talks about the 20 different countries he’s been to, wears the sweatshirt from his private high school that has a $40,000 a year tutition, and constantly goes to expensive concerts/restaurants/places during vacation. I won’t discount real struggle, like abusive or absent parents, but don’t try to play up things that were marginally difficult barriers to reaching this point in education.

Edit: For further clarification, I don’t immediately assume that those who have wealthy parents grew up with zero difficulties. I take issue with those who voice minor challenges and try to exaggerate the difficulty.

 

[Lawpy]

Blame Bernie and AOC

I blame the neoliberals actually but i'm not sure why you're bringing politics to this

 

[Splenda88]

I blame the neoliberals actually but i'm not sure why you're bringing politics to this

Sorry for derailing the thread. I deleted that post.