Parenting...

[WVUPharm2007]

And you know what? I'm sure the heck ecstatic that my parents decided to have me. Because I'm here today.

Not to mention the fact that they decided to have you on the exact day that egg/sperm combo were available. And that the one sperm beat all the others. They wait a few hours too late, make the decision a week earlier, or do it in a different position - a different little soldier makes it there and you ain't even you. Considering the millions of sperm available on just that one day. Pretty incredible luck. Now that's something to wrap your mind around.

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[SpirivaSunrise]

"The" guy or just "a" guy? I can find you a guy, easy. Hell, give me 25 seconds and a telephone.

Well, I'm not sure if I believe in the "there's only one person out there for you" theory. I think we're lucky enough to meet people that make us feel or experience different things that we would otherwise be too afraid to do on our own. It's thrilling when you can surprise yourself by doing something...and know that someone else helped bring that out in you.

So yeah, I'm not looking for any guy...but a guy who can light/trigger my box of matches. (Props to anyone who knows what I'm referring to)

 

[BlueCrayon]

I don't think existence is hostile or benevolent. It's indifferent. I'm not really sure I can be a cynic. Though in reference to some other guy's world view perhaps I am. I'm just bringing up some negative stuff that runs contrary to the standard mores of American living

You're not cynical? You're just about the most depressing and cynical person I've ever heard. You're negative on just about every thread you post in.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

You're not cynical? You're just about the most depressing and cynical person I've ever heard. You're negative on just about every thread you post in.

I might be if I'm judged by your standards on your viewpoint of existence. My standards on me? To be a self-proclaimed cynic, you have to believe in good and evil.

 

[Epic]

Actually, your concept of what I am saying is a tad off. You can compare you at 40 to you at 25, fine. But that means little in this discussion. I already explained this in this very thread, in fact. You don't know what it's like to be a 40 year old without children. Children take time away from other life opportunities. If you did not have children, you do not know what other things you may have accomplished or been privy to. Not to mention that all this attempts to transfer the life experiences of one person to another person with an entirely different set of ethics, values, and life experiences. Ergo, one cannot truly tell another person how "they just don't understand" via the use of appeal to authority.

I never claimed to know what it's like to be 40 without children, did I?

Then again, I can tell you what it's like to be 40 with children. Something you can't claim to know. At the same time, I know what it's like to be 25 and have no kids. And I can tell you you will truly miss out on pleasures of parenting at the same time forego pain of being a parent.

And yes, I can tell you you don't understand not via the use of appeal to authority, but through experience... which frankly you lack.

 

[Epic]

One is saying people should be able to do what they want, the other is how I see it. In order to truly not allow people to have children, one would have to make it a law. When did I say I think it's a good idea to legislate my thoughts? That wouldn't be very fair. The theorized antikid act of 2008 going through congress and me saying that having tons of kids while others are starving or have no parents just isn't right aren't the same thing at all. There is a difference between authoritarianism and offering your thoughts on life....but I digress.....

Legistating your thoughts will never occur, thank goodness. In fact, your thoughts aren't very good idea anyways. Issue isn't about illegalizing child birth. The issue is your criticism of having children because of your cynical view of life in general.

 

[PharmDstudent]

The fact that you are worrying about being viewed as "conquered" makes me think that you have not met someone that does not make it their mission to conquer you....I have many goals in this life that I have left to conquer and my husband will tell you that there is no way he will "conquer" me. You can still be "sought after" when you're a Mom, but you will one day see that doesn't really mean anything anyway.

Yes, you need a vacation.

If I start babbling incoherent things, please disregard the babble.
Some lady called the pharmacy tonight to make sure that I was ok. She said that I had blanked out while I was at the register ringing up her scripts. She was worried that I would have a seizure, because "it has happened twice so far". --> I'm just really freakin' tired and exhausted, and it takes me longer to think when I'm really tired.

Men always want to "conquer". It has always been that way. They get mad at me too when they don't get their way. I refuse to play girlie, appease-him games, so it's probably a bittersweet challenge for them.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a super model, but for some reason, I have to avoid people so that I don't get hit on. Someone hit on me in the library today (he asked if I liked to party, because I look like I do ), one guy was staring at me as I was walking away from my car this afternoon (I caught him when I turned around), and three guys whistled and waved at me yesterday morning as I was walking out of my apartment. It's creepy sometimes.


I have a wonderful bf, so don't get me wrong, but I refuse to get married just because: his family says that "[he and I] don't believe in marriage", his mother complains that she will never have grandchildren, my mother devotes so much of her free time to my new nephew that I've almost forgotten that she's my mom, or "I'm at that age". Screw it all. None of those comments are about me anyway. It's about other people who have their own agendas.

I'm afraid of having children too. What happens when they're less than ideal? We can't all have a Tiger Woods!

 

[tussionex]

Blah blah blah. I am immature. I won't lie. But that doesn't mean I can't see through bull****. God help us all we question things that are perceived as illogical. The inerrant word of our Lord and Savior Epic....



It's an everchanging world. Dynamism renders experience worthless.

i'm simply appreciating the use of the word "inerrant".

you're alot of things, WVU, but inarticulate certainly isnt one of them!

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I never claimed to know what it's like to be 40 without children, did I?

Didn't say you did. It's just that you may not have considered it in the line of logic you were using earlier about life experience and ****.

Then again, I can tell you what it's like to be 40 with children.

I'd hope.

Something you can't claim to know.

Yup.

At the same time, I know what it's like to be 25 and have no kids.

Ok.

And I can tell you you will truly miss out on pleasures of parenting at the same time forego pain of being a parent.

Huh...? That sentence sense make no any. Assuming I get what you're trying to type; you actually can't tell me if I'd miss out on it. Having children may very well make me miserable. I've seen it multiple times. Or, hell, the kid could go Menendez on my ***.

And yes, I can tell you you don't understand not via the use of appeal to authority, but through experience... which frankly you lack.

We've been over this once already. Now you're just going in circle.

Well, saying something is true because of experience is an appeal to authority. That's what you did at first. All you did there was rearrange it to say that I know nothing due to lack of experience. That would transform the fallacy from "appeal to authority" to "ad hominem". Rather than question the logic or facts you question the person.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Legistating your thoughts will never occur, thank goodness.

Nah, they shouldn't. Interestingly, the random thoughts of a whole bunch of people actually are legislated. Like not letting gay folk get married. That's the biggest who gives a flying **** if they do it or not issue of my generation. But, hey, it's illegal because of religion and the fact that it appalls some people.

In fact, your thoughts aren't very good idea anyways.

Alright, why? Don't just say a dude is an idiot and run off. That's like keying someone's car. Hell, anyone can say something is a bad idea.

Issue isn't about illegalizing child birth.

Yeah, I'd typically agree.

The issue is your criticism of having children because of your cynical view of life in general.

When did that become the issue? And if that's the issue than what's your issue with said issue?

 

[WVUPharm2007]

i'm simply appreciating the use of the word "inerrant".

you're alot of things, WVU, but inarticulate certainly isnt one of them!

Nah, I'm just a hick from the sticks. You gots to pull out the fancy words when a philosophical throw down about epistemology is on. You know. That's how we hilljacks roll.

 

[mustang sally]

I have a wonderful bf, so don't get me wrong, but I refuse to get married just because: his family says that "[he and I] don't believe in marriage", his mother complains that she will never have grandchildren, my mother devotes so much of her free time to my new nephew that I've almost forgotten that she's my mom, or "I'm at that age". Screw it all. None of those comments are about me anyway. It's about other people who have their own agendas.

It kind of sounds like you are rejecting marriage and/or having your own family solely because the people in your life expect you to embrace these things. Like maybe you are allowing your bitterness toward others' "agendas" to affect your decision making about your own life.

And don't feel too bad about the nephew thing. I think probably 99% of moms want to have grandchildren and go crazy once they do. It's par for the course.

 

[PharmDstudent]

WVU... your position is logical. How would it be logical for someone to have children when there are so many children who need a family already?

It's not always easy to have a logical viewpoint in an irrational world. People do things that are illogical day after day. If their actions are accepted by society, then they do not have to be held accountable for being illogical.

 

[PharmDstudent]

It kind of sounds like you are rejecting marriage and/or having your own family solely because the people in your life expect you to embrace these things.

They do expect me to embrace those things.
People look at me like I'm crazy when I say that I don't want to get married or have children.
The way I see it... I would be doing those things to make them happy, because they don't make me inherently happy.

Like maybe you are allowing your bitterness toward others' "agendas" to affect your decision making about your own life.

No. I'm not submitting to their influence. That's all. I will make my own decision regardless of what they would like me to do. Some people can't be that independent, because it's not easy acting in a way that opposes your family or friends.

 

[tussionex]

It kind of sounds like you are rejecting marriage and/or having your own family solely because the people in your life expect you to embrace these things. Like maybe you are allowing your bitterness toward others' "agendas" to affect your decision making about your own life.

And don't feel too bad about the nephew thing. I think probably 99% of moms want to have grandchildren and go crazy once they do. It's par for the course.

i disagree. no one wants to have someone else's agenda forced upon them, however much it matches the societal norm, and particularly when it is something that is such a personal decision.

i never wanted a wedding and was "forced" into it by my family and by my inability to stand up for myself. it cost me a lot of money and a lot of aggravation. it was a completely miserable experience!

 

[monsterbrain]

WVU... your position is logical. How would it be logical for someone to have children when there are so many children who need a family already?

It's not always easy to have a logical viewpoint in an irrational world. People do things that are illogical day after day. If their actions are accepted by society, then they do not have to be held accountable for being illogical.

People don't need to be "held accountable" for being illogical--maybe illegal or immoral, but not illogical. This is a very important characteristic that separates humans from computers. I'm glad we are illogical beings; this is what makes life fun and interesting.

 

[mustang sally]

i disagree. no one wants to have someone else's agenda forced upon them, however much it matches the societal norm, and particularly when it is something that is such a personal decision.

i never wanted a wedding and was "forced" into it by my family and by my inability to stand up for myself. it cost me a lot of money and a lot of aggravation. it was a completely miserable experience!

Some of the posts in this thread (presumably those from the childless female posters) just come across as a little bitter, that's all.

I don't think there's anything wrong with not having children. But if that is your guys' decision, then I think you should be joyous and celebrate your decision, not be bitter about it.

 

[PharmDstudent]

People don't need to be "held accountable" for being illogical--maybe illegal or immoral, but not illogical. This is a very important characteristic that separates humans from computers. I'm glad we are illogical beings; this is what makes life fun and interesting.

So pharmacists shouldn't be logical when they counsel their patients? I guess it's ok then for a pharmacist to recommend Sudafed to a patient with uncontrolled high blood pressure, because the pharmacist likes Sudafed and thinks it's a great decongestant. The pharmacist isn't being immoral or doing anything illegal by suggesting Sudafed. His decision to recommend Sudafed to a patient with uncontrolled hypertension was irrational because of the implications that exist in that situation. No matter how much he loves Sudafed, the pharmacist will be held accountable when his patient dies of a myocardial infarction if the pharmacist acted carelessly.

The only point that I'm trying to make is that you should think about what you just said... that's all.

 

[PharmDstudent]

But if that is your guys' decision, then I think you should be joyous and celebrate your decision, not be bitter about it.

Huh? Please explain this statement. It comes across bad.

 

[PharmDstudent]

Some of the posts in this thread (presumably those from the childless female posters) just come across as a little bitter, that's all.

I don't think there's anything wrong with not having children.

I'm not bitter. I'm tired of having to justify myself, because I have an atypical viewpoint. It probably seems like I'm bitter, but I'm just irritated and frustrated.

I posted this thread, so that I could become more open-minded, because I want to treat people better. I want to understand, so that I can be more tolerant of people who consciously make a decision that I avoid.

 

[mustang sally]

Huh? Please explain this statement. It comes across bad.

Bad as in misworded? I just think sometimes people without kids (in real life as well, not just on this board) come across as bitter about their decision, rather than happy. I realize that they are probably just irritated at society for shoving reproduction in their face non-stop, but they just really come across as being bitter and having a bad attitude toward people who do decide to reproduce.

You can't really change society's fascination with reproduction...you can only change your attitude toward society.

 

[BlueCrayon]

Bad as in misworded? I just think sometimes people without kids (in real life as well, not just on this board) come across as bitter about their decision, rather than happy. I realize that they are probably just irritated at society for shoving reproduction in their face non-stop, but they just really come across as being bitter and having a bad attitude toward people who do decide to reproduce.

You can't really change society's fascination with reproduction...you can only change your attitude toward society.

I agree...earlier I spoke of some friends that I lost and it wasn't because of the disagreement. It was because they just couldn't go merrily along their way and be happy not having kids...they were so against it, that they alienated us and ended up hating us for our decision to have a child. I said F them...if they were that unhappy with a society that is entirely based on reproduction, then that's their problem not mine.

 

[PharmDstudent]

I don't think there's anything wrong with not having children. But if that is your guys' decision, then I think you should be joyous and celebrate your decision, not be bitter about it.

Huh? Please explain this statement. It comes across bad.

Bad as in misworded?

"Your guys' decision" makes it sound like she didn't have a choice in the matter and that it was her husband's decision. I think what you were trying to say is that it was their decision, i.e. the couple's decision, because wherever you're from, they use "you guys" instead of "you" or "y'all". It was a colloquial misunderstanding, if you will.

 

[PharmDstudent]

I said F them...if they were that unhappy with a society that is entirely based on reproduction, then that's their problem not mine.

Society isn't based entirely on reproduction, yo! It's based entirely on the people who are involved in it, including the non-reproducing types.

If they have a problem with reproduction, then their problem affects you because both parties are involved in the same society. Vice versa, it affects me when people have five kids who use the public school system, because I pay taxes that fund the system.

 

[Old Timer]

I refer you all to my original post on this topic which Epic clearly understands and WVUPharm2007 doesn't.

WVUPharm2007: If you don't want to have children, that is choice between you and your partner. Understand you will pay a price. If you know up front what the price will be and you are willing to pay that price in your life you will be happy. The same for those of us who choose to have children. We do pay a price. There are sleepless nights and countless worries. There are trips not taken, experiences passed on, material things not accrued. I wouldn't trade my children for any of those. My oldest is about to graduate from college and become a school teacher. She will shape the lives of hundreds if not thousands of children. She will be an influence for good in the world and I'll be a little responsible for that. My youngest was just accepted to G-W in the honors program and I have no idea what imprint she will place on this world, but whatever good she does, I'll be a little responsible for that as well.

Marriage (25 years) and parenthood (two kids 18 & 21) are two of the greatest opportunities for human growth and I recommend them both to all of you youngins thinking about what course to take as you charter the paths of your lives.

 

[Epic]

I refer you all to my original post on this topic which Epic clearly understands and WVUPharm2007 doesn't.

WVUPharm2007: If you don't want to have children, that is choice between you and your partner. Understand you will pay a price. If you know up front what the price will be and you are willing to pay that price in your life you will be happy. The same for those of us who choose to have children. We do pay a price. There are sleepless nights and countless worries. There are trips not taken, experiences passed on, material things not accrued. I wouldn't trade my children for any of those. My oldest is about to graduate from college and become a school teacher. She will shape the lives of hundreds if not thousands of children. She will be an influence for good in the world and I'll be a little responsible for that. My youngest was just accepted to G-W in the honors program and I have no idea what imprint she will place on this world, but whatever good she does, I'll be a little responsible for that as well.

Marriage (25 years) and parenthood (two kids 18 & 21) are two of the greatest opportunities for human growth and I recommend them both to all of you youngins thinking about what course to take as you charter the paths of your lives.

No sense in discussing parenthood or parenthood decisions with know it all nonparents who are against having children for whatever logical reasons.

Live like a Vulcan...

 

[bananaface]

I'm not bitter. I'm tired of having to justify myself, because I have an atypical viewpoint. It probably seems like I'm bitter, but I'm just irritated and frustrated.

I posted this thread, so that I could become more open-minded, because I want to treat people better. I want to understand, so that I can be more tolerant of people who consciously make a decision that I avoid.

The idea that you have to justify yourself is often an illusion. Alot of the pressures I felt to do this or that when I was younger are gone now. The bottom line is, you are ultimately accountable to yourself more than anyone else in this world. You family or people in general may expect you to do things, but that is because they want you to be happy or expect that you want to be happy and sometimes just don't get that their view on happiness and how to obtain it doesn't necessarily fit everyone.

I pretty much gave other people's ideas on my happiness the big eff you when I got divorced. I was so worried about disappointing people, especially my mom, but it turned out that I was not her primary concern. I told her I was moving out of my house and she said "well you can't stay with me!" She'd started dating her now husband and he'd been staying over, but she didn't want anyone to know yet b/c she was all religious-y and they met at church. Anyway, my point is that sometimes we overestimate how big of a deal it is for us to conform to other people's expectations - both my mom and I did.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I refer you all to my original post on this topic which Epic clearly understands and WVUPharm2007 doesn't.

Explain how I don't understand. I do. You're just not taking into consideration that I'm not you.

WVUPharm2007: If you don't want to have children, that is choice between you and your partner. Understand you will pay a price. If you know up front what the price will be and you are willing to pay that price in your life you will be happy. The same for those of us who choose to have children. We do pay a price. There are sleepless nights and countless worries. There are trips not taken, experiences passed on, material things not accrued. I wouldn't trade my children for any of those. My oldest is about to graduate from college and become a school teacher. She will shape the lives of hundreds if not thousands of children. She will be an influence for good in the world and I'll be a little responsible for that. My youngest was just accepted to G-W in the honors program and I have no idea what imprint she will place on this world, but whatever good she does, I'll be a little responsible for that as well.

This is what I meant earlier. People assume that type of warm fuzzy crap actually appeals to me and everyone else. I'm sorry, but it doesn't. The idea of early retirement and then doing local work for the community seems a ton more rewarding that trying to mold a single human. The way I see it there is so much more good a person can do with the world rather than waste 18/years/child worth of resources to have kids. So much needs to be done for the people of Earth living in misery that having children just seems selfish to me. (AGAIN to ME. Contrary to popular belief, I'm not trying to ruffle feathers. I'm just telling everyone how I feel....people just take the **** too personally...)

I'm sure you are proud of your kids and all, but if I had the choice between feeding a tribe of African children, helping the inner city local Boys & Girls Club, etc or raise a single person in the luxury that is upper-middle class/lower upper class American life...it's really not a hard choice to me. I don't need a kid like the kids in my neighborhood back home need help and guidance away from their redneck alcoholic parents hopped up on Oxycontin that beat them every night. Or like how the kids my wife tells me about she knew back in the day in her old neighborhood in Philly need someone to tell them that they don't have to sling on the corner even though their parents encourage it.

Giving a kid all the advantages, the best schools, the nicest toys to play with, a nice late model Honda Civic to drive around...and then watch them succeed. Sure, go ahead. If that's what you think the ultimate experience is for you, do it. Personally? I like the idea of taking an at risk youth with a horrible home situation, becoming a mentor, letting them see and do things they wouldn't do otherwise....and then watching them succeed.

Call me cynic. Tell me I "just don't understand". Tell me I'm not allowed to have an opinion that strays from your perceived norm. Tell me I lack "life experience". It's cool with me, because you don't really know me.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

No sense in discussing parenthood or parenthood decisions with know it all nonparents who are against having children for whatever logical reasons.

You aren't discussing the choice of entering parenthood at all. You just keep piling on more and more ad hominems without actually challenging the various assertions that other people make. Yet another one appears in the quote above. I take philosophy seriously and I'm in street philosopher mode. It's one of my main interests in life. Hell I have a few Sarte, Camus, and Dostoyevsky books laying next to me on my computer desk. I don't play...step right or don't step at all. You aren't allowed to say something is true because you say so. You aren't allowed to say something a person says isn't true because of "lack of experience". A statement or assertion should be evaluated upon its own merits. If Mother Teresa said beating children was a good idea, it doesn't make it true.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

It's not always easy to have a logical viewpoint in an irrational world.

I saw a t-shirt once; "In a crazy world, those that appear insane are actually the sane ones." Kinda profound for something at Spencer's.....

People do things that are illogical day after day.

Indeed. Like wearing neck ties.

If their actions are accepted by society, then they do not have to be held accountable for being illogical.

Interesting.

 

[PharmDstudent]

No sense in discussing parenthood or parenthood decisions with know it all nonparents

"know it all" should be hyphenated, because the phrase acts as a compound modifier --> know-it-all

 

[Old Timer]

WVUPharm2007: If you know what you will be gaining and you know what you will be missing and your wife is in agreement, it's no skin of my nose.

The save the world it's over populated is the biggest load of horse **** in the world. There are people in Africa starving, so we shouldn't eat either? We are feeding more people on this planet now than in the 50's using way less farm land. Norman Borlaug almost single handedly saved India from starvation with dwarf wheat. Who knows what scientific breath trough somebody's child will discover or invent in the next 10-50 years????

So much needs to be done for the people of Earth living in misery that having children just seems selfish to me.

You mean for you. For if your sentence stands I'm selfish for having children, which I can assure you I am not.

 

[Epic]

You aren't discussing the choice of entering parenthood at all. You just keep piling on more and more ad hominems without actually challenging the various assertions that other people make. Yet another one appears in the quote above. I take philosophy seriously and I'm in street philosopher mode. It's one of my main interests in life. Hell I have a few Sarte, Camus, and Dostoyevsky books laying next to me on my computer desk. I don't play...step right or don't step at all. You aren't allowed to say something is true because you say so. You aren't allowed to say something a person says isn't true because of "lack of experience". A statement or assertion should be evaluated upon its own merits. If Mother Teresa said beating children was a good idea, it doesn't make it true.

And show me where Mother Teresa said beating children was a good idea.

I like the idea of taking an at risk youth with a horrible home situation, becoming a mentor, letting them see and do things they wouldn't do otherwise....and then watching them succeed.

And you can't do this if you're a parent? Sure that sounds noble and all Mike...but what have you done for underprivileged children lately?

So much needs to be done for the people of Earth living in misery that having children just seems selfish to me.

So you never participate in selfish activities? Did you not get a big *** plasma TV? What's wrong with a 21 inch tube TV? You could have saved a ton of money. Then sent the money to UNICEF to feed poor children.

Do you ever go to WVU football games? Sounds selfish to me. Why didn't you spend that time and money to go volunteer for underprivileged children?

Do you not spend hours and hours at D&B? Why don't you spend that time helping children or mentoring? Sounds selfish to me.

Don't preach selfishness of humanity for having children when you participate in selfish activities.

but if I had the choice between feeding a tribe of African children, helping the inner city local Boys & Girls Club, etc or raise a single person in the luxury that is upper-middle class/lower upper class American life

Well, mr logical philosopher, how many african children and inner city local boys and girls do you think you can help with you and your wife working? I would say a lot. But if you reproduced and made 2 mikes who can carry on your mission and help out the poor, don't you think it was worth it?

So, if you're not going to have children, will you spend every single dime and penny you would have spent on your children for the cause of poor children of the world?

You know what? I highly doubt it. In fact, I know you won't do it.

Don't preach fuzzy feel good "I"m going to make the world a better place" statement for the sake of an argument. It's nothing more than transparency.

 

[Epic]

The way I see it there is so much more good a person can do with the world rather than waste 18/years/child worth of resources to have kids.

Or, gee whiz, adopt a kid.

If anything, I would chose to adopt.

Would you agree that adopting and raising a kid requires just as much resource as rearing your own child? I would say yes.

Then by adopting a child, your ability to provide for the poor children of the world diminishes.

That would be illogical. You save one but sacrifice many.

Hence it's illogical for you to preach not having kids for the sake of poor children of the world but at the same promote adoption.

Sounds like Bull S H I T philosophy you're preaching there buddy.

 

[Epic]

You aren't discussing the choice of entering parenthood at all. You just keep piling on more and more ad hominems without actually challenging the various assertions that other people make. Yet another one appears in the quote above. I take philosophy seriously and I'm in street philosopher mode. It's one of my main interests in life. Hell I have a few Sarte, Camus, and Dostoyevsky books laying next to me on my computer desk. I don't play...step right or don't step at all. You aren't allowed to say something is true because you say so. You aren't allowed to say something a person says isn't true because of "lack of experience". A statement or assertion should be evaluated upon its own merits. If Mother Teresa said beating children was a good idea, it doesn't make it true.

But I can always say one is not speaking from experience. And credentials are built on experience. And often I'm asked "From your experience, how would you handle......?"

Philosophy? I would just revert back to saying you lack experience. I don't take philosphy seriously... it would be selfish for me to sit, read, ponder and waste my time when I can be out helping poor children.

 

[acetyl]

I just gotta figure out how to make money in the market...

...but this is pretty entertaining in the interim.

 

[Epic]

I just gotta figure out how to make money in the market...

...but this is pretty entertaining in the interim.

It's actually easy... buy low and sell higher. Then buy low again and sell high again... you can do this all day long because that's what a stock does...it goes up and down.

And if you find a stock that took a huge gain one day, then short it next day...

 

[Epic]

Except, I lost like 11% because of that freaking 20 minute delay.

 

[taken2]

Children cost too much. And I'm not even talking about money, either. Myself and my wife see it very similarly on the matter. They aren't in our plans.



**** that. Who cares if your genes are around? It's just a bunch of damn amino acids hooked together in a pattern similar to yours inside of some other human that leeches off of you for 18+ years. Granted, it's one's right to have a kid and all, but don't make it something it isn't. We all share the same genes more or less.

There really isn't anything special about my ancestrally mutt-like genes, anyway. Irish, Spanish, Norwegian, Scottish, English, Native American, African, German, N. Mediterranean....I gots all that in me. Why does it matter if my genes get passed on? They're pretty much all out there already. I guess if you're a racial supremacist it may matter. Unfortunately, my genes are too tainted to join the Black Panthers or the KKK. That's how it goes. And, hell, if I had a kid, he'd have to add his mom's half Jew half Russian genes to his motley list of crap. If this theorized kid got with an Asian, I'm pretty sure just about everything would be covered.

But we are talking about creating another human.

What disgusts me is that humanity can't even care for all of its children right now. The world would be much better if everyone in the industrialized world did one thing. Instead of having kids themselves, just skip the complicated pregnancy part, and rather than paying the expensive cost of a child for 18 years, just send $40,000 a year to UNICEF. Rather than two humans, one suffering, one comfortable - you'd just have one comfortable human.

Or, gee whiz, adopt a kid. All these rich ****s having 3 kids when there are perfectly good ones becoming emotionally damaged in foster care or dying of AIDS in Nigeria. There should be a child luxury tax.

Yeah, yeah, you don't get to experience the warm and cuddly part of the process. Who gives a **** if you could minimize human suffering. You got a Hallmark card of a life to maintain. Maintaining your genes. How pathetic is that, really? Billions of years of evolution and we're still reduced to the same ****. Humans and amoebae still have much in common, I s'pose.....

But, you know....there are interesting angles to everything. I'll be the first to admit that I see the world hella different than the average dude. If my cold, unabashed logic offends anybody...well, my bad. But, yeah, PharmDstudent....I can see where you're coming from. Don't expect anyone else to, though. That's just how it is.

What about the kids dying of AIDS in America? If you don't want to have kids, that's your problem, don't use African child as an excuse. The fact is that some kids in Africa have a better life than most kids in America but because of all these greedy Televangists that make money off of American public in the name of helping poor children in Africa, they show you all what you want to see.
You are probably still young, maybe you will feel differently when you are alot older. I honestly believe that alot of people that don't want to have kids just because they don't have the patience to be parents are selfish. Imagine if your parents didn't have the patience to go through the same processes you all are scared of in raising you, you might not have the opportunity to even be where you are today. Have some respect for your parents when you talk about parenthood because they are parents too.
Having children is the best thing that can happen to anyone. You don't know how wonderful parenthood can be until you have tried it.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

And show me where Mother Teresa said beating children was a good idea.

She didn't. It's a theoretical example of fallacious appeal to authority. Did it go over your head or are you being obtuse? If's it's the former, I'll explain if you wish.

So you never participate in selfish activities? Did you not get a big *** plasma TV? What's wrong with a 21 inch tube TV? You could have saved a ton of money. Then sent the money to UNICEF to feed poor children.

Do you ever go to WVU football games? Sounds selfish to me. Why didn't you spend that time and money to go volunteer for underprivileged children?

Do you not spend hours and hours at D&B? Why don't you spend that time helping children or mentoring? Sounds selfish to me.

You're right. I do tons of selfish ****. We all do. Kinda sucks when you reflect. You feel guilty. Limiting living in excess is something I have to work on. Granted, I live in a trailer and drive a beater...but the D&B trips should probably be held to a minimum. It really is pure waste.

Interestingly, I actually need a larger TV for my "second job" playing for cash gaming tournaments online. Though that is a weak excuse. A/V stuff is my main hobby. WVU games are free for students. I'm not buying season tickets for next season as an alumnus being that you asked. I actually got tired of D&B, too. I haven't been back since winning the PS3. Though your point is made. I am wasteful. Probably not as badly as others, but it is true.

But, hey - GUESS WHAT!!!!!

The above quote is still an ad hominem attack. Things should be discussed without the adversarial crap. I never really have understood why people take stuff so personally. Again - I'm not saying you or anyone else is a bad person, I'm just saying I see **** differently for myself. And I still think having kids would be selfish. It may or may not be selfish to you because you live your life under a separate code of ethics, morals, and beliefs from me.

I like ham. Various religions think eating ham is a aberration to existence. Who is right? We both are because one should create their own meaning for their life. I think that's the big issue. By presenting an idea about how I view existence, it is automatically assumed by many that I think that others are despicable based on how I may judge myself. For instance, I do not drink ethanol because I feel it is irresponsible. Nor do I use any other such substance illicitly. However, I do not think the 80% of people that do drink every now and then are horrible people.

But if you reproduced and made 2 mikes who can carry on your mission and help out the poor, don't you think it was worth it?

Interesting idea if it panned out the intended way, but in that time the world population will have doubled anyway; with population increased skewed to the third world. However, if I opted to not have children, I feel I could have a much larger effect on stopping the destructive cyclic culture of hopelessness that is seen in the inner city. My opinion remains unchanged.

So, if you're not going to have children, will you spend every single dime and penny you would have spent on your children for the cause of poor children of the world?

Of course not, you need personal time to be sane, but I do plan to keep working with the B's & G's club when I move to Philly.

You know what? I highly doubt it. In fact, I know you won't do it.

Haha, got ahead of you.

Don't preach fuzzy feel good "I"m going to make the world a better place" statement for the sake of an argument. It's nothing more than transparency.

Is it? If you think it is or isn't, I suppose it doesn't really matter. I see it as just some dude on the internet judging some other dude on the internet. I'll deal. I've got my own conscience to worry about.

But saying all this is still another ad hominem. You can't disprove an assertion by attacking the person that presents it. It doesn't matter if I kidnap children and sell them to the Russians. I still feel that spending a lot of time being a trusted mentor for troubled children is more noble and more rewarding than having children of your own.

You did exchange one idea, the breeding children and hope they help others thing - which I do appreciate. Albeit I feel it is a weak rebuttal for the reasons I described above, it is the first true attempt on your part.

From what I interpret, all of the emotive innuendo used in the post I am quoting throughout is nothing but an attempt to present an elaborate character assassination in order to decrease the perceptive palatability of the assertions I make. Address the ideas and assertions, please.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Would you agree that adopting and raising a kid requires just as much resource as rearing your own child? I would say yes. Then by adopting a child, your ability to provide for the poor children of the world diminishes. That would be illogical. You save one but sacrifice many. Hence it's illogical for you to preach not having kids for the sake of poor children of the world but at the same promote adoption.

Oh, I agree. Hence I prefaced it with the leading phrase "Or, gee whiz...." meaning that if having children is absolutely one of your goals, I feel adopting a child is a better approach.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

But I can always say one is not speaking from experience. And credentials are built on experience. And often I'm asked "From your experience, how would you handle......?"

But isn't expert opinion generally considered the weakest evidence in scientific writing?

And, as I touched upon earlier in the thread, you are speaking of the experience associated with science rather than the objectivity of abstract thought. Those are two very different subjects. Again, one is abstract, the other is defined by absolute laws.

Philosophy? I would just revert back to saying you lack experience. I don't take philosphy seriously.

Disappointing being that you appeared to be going considerably at length with me in discussing a philosophical subject. I had hoped I found a philosophizing counterpart.

it would be selfish for me to sit, read, ponder and waste my time when I can be out helping poor children.

Interesting. Though I should also mention that during the recent history of this discussion I feel you have interjected the false claim that I advocated the complete use of ones time/resources towards helping at risk youth - an activity I mentioned as it is something I plan on continuing throughout my life. Saying that one should spend all their time, every waking moment in service would be hyperbolic of any of my previous assertions. For example, if I would criticize you for wasting time on the internet rather than spending time with your children that you claim to cherish so much, it would be, as I feel the previous statements about use of time/resource are, an example of hyperbole. Clearly, this is not a possibility in its entirety. Personal time is needed for everyone, IMO. How much, obviously, is debatable. As such, if you would like to discuss this as well, I feel it would be an interesting subject. I would oblige.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

What about the kids dying of AIDS in America?

Thankfully children in America TYPICALLY have access to healthcare. Though there are some cracks in the floor, it is far more satisfactory than healthcare in impoverished nations.

If you don't want to have kids, that's your problem, don't use African child as an excuse. The fact is that some kids in Africa have a better life than most kids in America but because of all these greedy Televangists that make money off of American public in the name of helping poor children in Africa, they show you all what you want to see.

Um. Yeah. Do you read much about Somalia? Sudan? I would have to disagree that children in sub-Saharan Africa are honky-dory. Many televangelists are opportunistic thieves, but that doens't mean there isn't a problem. There are over 10 million orphans in Africa due to AIDS alone. That's...kinda...high. AIDS is certainly a problem. It still kills people rather swiftly there.

You are probably still young, maybe you will feel differently when you are alot older.

Possibly. People do change. Though I've noticed that only a fraction of the "when you get older" types of things people have claimed have come to fruition. Stuff like "when you get older, you'll vote" have come true.

I honestly believe that alot of people that don't want to have kids just because they don't have the patience to be parents are selfish.

Even at the face value that you present this assertion, I don't understand how not having children is "selfish." A person that isn't ready to have children for any reason isn't a person that should be raising one, IMO.

Imagine if your parents didn't have the patience to go through the same processes you all are scared of in raising you, you might not have the opportunity to even be where you are today.

I'm not really afraid of raising a child. Though the whole "if it weren't for your parents you wouldn't be here thing" is far too shallow to base any sort of argument off of. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, when the decision to have children is made - a one-in-millions (actually, much, much higher) process resulting in a specific human occurs. One is more lucky to be them than anything else.

That being that, I still don't understand how the decision of one's parents should determine the actions of that person themself.

Have some respect for your parents when you talk about parenthood because they are parents too.

Never once said I didn't.

Having children is the best thing that can happen to anyone.

It surely is to many people. I know several others that claim children ruined their life. However, I feel that it isn't for me and that there are other things I should do.

You don't know how wonderful parenthood can be until you have tried it.

I addressed this at length earlier in the thread.

 

[soyroger]

I'm trying to keep an open mind, but...

Whenever I hear a phrase like this I usually think, "Ok, here comes the most closed minded opinion of the day." By the time I got through your 2 reasons you had lived up to my expectations.

 

[PharmDstudent]

Whenever I hear a phrase like this I usually think, "Ok, here comes the most closed minded opinion of the day." By the time I got through your 2 reasons you had lived up to my expectations.

I'll respond by using my overly analytical mother's phrase: "So what's your point?"
You must think that I care that I lived up to your expectations. In fact, you might actually be the first person who I've met their expectations. That makes me proud. People are hard to please.
Everyone else on this planet tells me that I should be doing this or that, yet none of those people, including my father, have given me an adequate path to follow. I've paved the path for myself. If you don't like my shortcomings, give me the tools to eradicate their existence.

 

[bananaface]

All I have to say is I'm really glad that we have the multiquote feature enabled.

 

[SpirivaSunrise]

Oh, I agree. Hence I prefaced it with the leading phrase "Or, gee whiz...." meaning that if having children is absolutely one of your goals, I feel adopting a child is a better approach.

Why are you two are even arguing about this?? Mikey, I’m going to have to agree with Z on this, but only because my opinions on children are pretty similar. But I’ve always known that I wanted to be a mother...enough that if I’m not with someone in 10 – 15 years, I'd consider becoming a single mom.

However, there’s no reason someone who doesn’t want children should feel pressured into thinking they should. We’d just end up with a child who feels a) like a mistake, b) unwanted or c) like a misallocation of resources.

 

[soyroger]

"So what's your point?" If you don't like my shortcomings, give me the tools to eradicate their existence.

Hypocrisy. That's all. Nothing complex, nor do I care if you live up to my expectations. I have just come to expect closed mindedness following a phrase like that. Come back to this thread in a couple weeks and read through your comments again asking yourself if you expressed any closed minded ideas.

There are plenty of tools for living found in the Bible, Torah, Koran, etc. Three paths right there for you to choose from to eradicate your shortcomings. Now if you don't follow any of those paths then you need to change you comment about nobody showing you a path to follow to you just not choosing any of the multiple paths presented to you.

 

[PharmDstudent]

Hypocrisy. That's all. Nothing complex, nor do I care if you live up to my expectations. I have just come to expect closed mindedness following a phrase like that. Come back to this thread in a couple weeks and read through your comments again asking yourself if you expressed any closed minded ideas.

There are plenty of tools for living found in the Bible, Torah, Koran, etc. Three paths right there for you to choose from to eradicate your shortcomings. Now if you don't follow any of those paths then you need to change you comment about nobody showing you a path to follow to you just not choosing any of the multiple paths presented to you.

How was I being hypocritical? I was asking for other peoples' input so that I can be less narrow-minded. I listed those reasons to show my lack of open-mindedness.

The only religion/philosophy that I can identify with is Sufism, because two of the fundamental ideas of Sufism are to deemphasize the self and to love others.
I have to work hard to see where other people are coming from. It's challenging to love others despite their shortcomings. Although, it makes it easier when people can explain why they do things, especially when their explanation makes sense.

I remember one of the campers from the camp where I had volunteered. She had a horrible home life, but she was so lovable. She couldn't say the letter S, so anything that started with an S, including her name, would just start with whatever was after the S.
One day during camp, another camper started to make fun of her. She responded by saying, "I'm not _tupid, I'm _mart." I will never forget that, because it was so sincere and honest.
One of her shortcomings was a learning disability. Even though she needed extensive therapy for various reasons, it was her flaws that made her adorable.

I love the fact that Epic didn't use hyphens when he wrote "know it all". I thought it was cute

I don't follow people just because they're older, wiser, educated, etc. My actions are based on the morals that I try to adhere to and their effect on other people, the rationale behind my decision (I may agree with someone else's rationale and chose it instead of mine. It just depends on the situation.), and the practicality of the decision.
If someone wants me to do something because they want me to do it, then they should be willing to give up their time and resources to see that I can do what they want me to do so long as it benefits me (doesn't do harm) and I agree to do it.

I'm not having children if:
1) it doesn't benefit me to have them, because it harms me
2) I don't agree with it
3) someone else wants me to have them, but they don't want to provide support for the children that they wanted me to have (bf's mother will be moving out-of-state after she retires).

My reasons are not selfish. I would like to avoid harm while being tolerant and accepting of others.

 

[PharmDstudent]

Would you agree that adopting and raising a kid requires just as much resource as rearing your own child? I would say yes.

Then by adopting a child, your ability to provide for the poor children of the world diminishes.

That would be illogical. You save one but sacrifice many.

Hence it's illogical for you to preach not having kids for the sake of poor children of the world but at the same promote adoption.

Money doesn't always equal care.
Orphans need homes just like pharmacists' children need homes.
You aren't "sacrificing many" by providing a home to an orphan. You're giving a child a home.

Everyone has a limit as to how much they can care for/give to other people. You have a higher limit than most due to your financial security. Hopefully you donate to charities or something like that.

This is what I do...
I like to use coupons that are laying around in the pharmacy. If someone buys something that I have a coupon for, I'll ring up their product and the coupon.
When my co-workers need to switch shifts, I'll switch with them if it's possible.
I feed and care for my stray kitty, because she would be starving otherwise.