>>OQ/OCHSNER Program Information<<

[pitman]

Well its clear Ochsner is a money making program for UQ. I don't like it, it makes the school look like a Caribbean diploma mill, and there are others who feel that way.

And on the webpage for the program, they put Australia under UQ and then United States under Ochsner. It just looks kind of fishy if you ask me.

Oh, you don't like the formatting used in the banner. Well why didn't you just say so...that explains everything.

Why not just admit that again, you've likely made a false claim like this:

The Ochsner program is highly flawed and highly misleading, they do not seem to be reminding its applicants that it is a foreign medical school even though 2 whole years are in the US.

...based on some prejudice of yours, `facts be damned.

For convenience, here's the URL that int'ls might somehow miss after being directed there on UQ's site (lest they infer from the UQ/Ochsner banner's word positioning that Ochsner grads wouldn't be IMGs in the US):

http://www2.som.uq.edu.au/som/Futur...onalStudents/Pages/InternationalStudents.aspx

Seriously, PacificBlue -- are you a troll?

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[PacificBlue2012]

Oh, you don't like the formatting used in the banner. Well why didn't you just say so...that explains everything.

Why not just admit that again, you've likely made a false claim like this:

...based on some prejudice of yours, `facts be damned.

For convenience, here's the URL that int'ls might somehow miss after being directed there on UQ's site (lest they infer from the UQ/Ochsner banner's word positioning that Ochsner grads wouldn't be IMGs in the US):

http://www2.som.uq.edu.au/som/Futur...onalStudents/Pages/InternationalStudents.aspx

Seriously, PacificBlue -- are you a troll?

No I am just well informed about how Australian higher ed works and how universities here make money off of international students. I was smart enough to get a degree from USyd without forking over 200 to 300k in tuition like some people will be doing. So from Goldman to promoting international student education programs?? They train to you to become a lifelong con artist at Goldman don't they??! LOL. Why would I trust you anyway? Some jerk who worked for the one company that 86ed the American economy. LOL.

Prejudice?? No. I think UQ could go further to reveal what happened to their international graduates and release data on USMLE performance, especially since they are looking to market themselves in this manner, even those shady island schools furnish that kind of info.

 

[pitman]

I was smart enough to get a degree from USyd without forking over 200 to 300k in tuition like some people will be doing. So from Goldman to promoting international student education programs?? They train to you to become a lifelong con artist at Goldman don't they??! LOL. Why would I trust you anyway? Some jerk who worked for the one company that 86ed the American economy. LOL.

Yeah, you got me, PacificBlue. And I'm an imperialist pig like you 'cause I'm American.

Prejudice?? No. I think UQ could go further to reveal what happened to their international graduates and release data on USMLE performance, especially since they are looking to market themselves in this manner, even those shady island schools furnish that kind of info.

Um, they reveal more about USMLE scores than your alma, buddy. Will you now attack USyd? Hm?

I have again and again pointed out the fallacies with your claims themselves. Your response has been ad hominems at the expense of counter-argument. If you want to challenge me on how I might know a thing or two about what I claim, or if you want to otherwise learn about what's going on from others, read some old threads rather than acting like a bigoted newbie.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

Yeah, you got me, PacificBlue. And I'm an imperialist pig like you 'cause I'm American.


Um, they reveal more about USMLE scores than your alma, buddy. Will you now attack USyd? Hm?

I have again and again pointed out the fallacies with your claims themselves. Your response has been ad hominems at the expense of counter-argument. If you want to challenge me on how I might know a thing or two about what I claim, or if you want to otherwise learn about what's going on from others, read some old threads rather than acting like a bigoted newbie.

Well USyd is not marketing themselves as a diploma mill, the way the UQ Ochsner program is setup. In case you do not know many Australian universities have become a bit overzealous in going after international students. The supposed aim of UQ Ochsner is to train North Americans for practicing medicine in the USA. USyd's mission is to train doctors for Australia.

 

[pitman]

Well USyd is not marketing themselves as a diploma mill, the way the UQ Ochsner program is setup. In case you do not know many Australian universities have become a bit overzealous in going after international students. The supposed aim of UQ Ochsner is to train North Americans for practicing medicine in the USA. USyd's mission is to train doctors for Australia.

Any school that takes N. Americans has the same responsibility to report USMLE scores, as they are marketing to them with full knowledge most will have to return home. There is no double standard. UQ needs to report more than it does, but it already reports more than the others. So stop being hypocritical and harass your alma in kind.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

Any school that takes N. Americans has the same responsibility to report USMLE scores, as they are marketing to them with full knowledge most will have to return home. There is no double standard. UQ needs to report more than it does, but it already reports more than the others. So stop being hypocritical and harass your alma in kind.

You do have a point there, if they take our money, we have a right to know more about how previous graduates fared. I believe Atlantic Bridge furnishes that kind of information. USyd is now 60,000 big ones a year, if I was going to pay that kind of money I would want to know a lot more about how well its graduates faired at getting residencies. Still the numbers of students who apply for US residencies is kind of small. My cohort had 50 internationals, 40 of them from North America, my estimate is that some decided to stay but most went home. So its a small number. Flinders has had the oldest reputation when it comes to North Americans, and they only have about 15 students per year. So far the vast majority of info I was able to get was surfing Google, the schools should keep better tabs on their graduates.

I have told most of my friends from home who are considering Australia in general to look at DO schools instead, although the DO philosophy is very different from Allopathy, you cannot beat the convenience of doing your training in the US. Obviously people recognize MDs more but considering all the medical schools opening up in the US, you never know.

 

[nybgrus]

All foreign student spots at the SoM are for money making purposes. It is explicitly stated by the administration, the newspapers here have written articles on it, and it is not a secret in any way, shape, or form. The head of SoM has even stated that the current financial and political climate necessitates the use of foreign monies to subsidize the local student population. That is fact. And I am OK with it. That is the way it works everywhere - even in the states. I am a California resident that was paying about $2k per quarter at attend UCI. Out of state tuition was on the order of $13k.

As for the diploma mill issue - I am on the fence about it. I don't think that is inherently the case, and if our group steps up it wont smack of that. Especially with Ochsner backing us up. However, Wilko's motives for such rapid and vast class size increases are suspect at least. Who knows how it will pan out.

MedEdPath IS shady. We have written up a 30 page document critiquing their actions and offering our recommendation to improve their role and our image.

And yes, anyone who enters this program thinking that they are coming out of it like an American medical graduate needs to grow up for a year or two before starting medical school.

 

[nybgrus]

Well USyd is not marketing themselves as a diploma mill, the way the UQ Ochsner program is setup. In case you do not know many Australian universities have become a bit overzealous in going after international students. The supposed aim of UQ Ochsner is to train North Americans for practicing medicine in the USA. USyd's mission is to train doctors for Australia.

UQ SoM is designed to train docs for Australia. UQ/Ochsner program is a money making scheme for UQ and a doctor making scheme of Ochsner. UQ wants the money without the burden of 3rd and 4th year and residency logistical issues. Ochsner is already the largest health group in Louisiana, one of the largest in the states, has 3 RO1 grants, 8 main hospital, 32 clinics, and over 1.3 million patient contacts per year. And they are actively expanding and upgrading facilities. The reality is they can train 3rd and 4th year and residency, but NOT 1st and 2nd year. And they NEED physicians. They are happy to have UQ handle the first part and then take us at the end.

Of course, it is more complicated than that. Especially with the AMC. I sat in front of an AMC panel a month ago about these very topics. They do not have a paradigm to approve such a program, so concessions had to be made. The long term goal is to try and have some sort of reciprocity and a more solidified understanding that this is the status quo of the program. Will that happen? I don't know. We sure would like it to, and are working hard in the hopes that it will be a success. But the reality is this is a very novel program - albeit one that seems to model after the Caribbean contingent - but because that Caribbean stigma is not there and this is building from the ground up with two already established and well regarded institutions, I feel there is a chance for success that could put us well above the ranks of Caribbean IMG.

This talk about the MCAT is inane. The only reason it exists as an entry requirement at UQ SoM is because that is the only metric they can expect to have from American students. It would be ridiculous to expect us to take the GAMSAT. But trying to establish some sort of historical reference range of what is acceptable or competitive just makes no sense. In 4 years, after this program has churned out a couple of classes, then we can start normalizing that data.

As for USMLE and residency positions - that is ALWAYS a heady topic. And I have posted on it extensively so I will not waste my time again. Suffice it to say, that any IMG will have one big hindrance and one small advantage to any American medical graduate in looking for residency spots. The SoM does not prepare us for Step 1, period. It is entirely on us as a cohort and as individuals to ensure our solid marks and work for good placements. That is a reality and it will not change, unless, MAYBE, in 15 years there is full reciprocity and the LCME and the ECFMG no longer consider products of this program to be IMGs. Feel free to prattle on about what the odds of that may be, I don't care, since it won't ultimately affect me.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

UQ SoM is designed to train docs for Australia. UQ/Ochsner program is a money making scheme for UQ and a doctor making scheme of Ochsner. UQ wants the money without the burden of 3rd and 4th year and residency logistical issues. Ochsner is already the largest health group in Louisiana, one of the largest in the states, has 3 RO1 grants, 8 main hospital, 32 clinics, and over 1.3 million patient contacts per year. And they are actively expanding and upgrading facilities. The reality is they can train 3rd and 4th year and residency, but NOT 1st and 2nd year. And they NEED physicians. They are happy to have UQ handle the first part and then take us at the end.

Of course, it is more complicated than that. Especially with the AMC. I sat in front of an AMC panel a month ago about these very topics. They do not have a paradigm to approve such a program, so concessions had to be made. The long term goal is to try and have some sort of reciprocity and a more solidified understanding that this is the status quo of the program. Will that happen? I don't know. We sure would like it to, and are working hard in the hopes that it will be a success. But the reality is this is a very novel program - albeit one that seems to model after the Caribbean contingent - but because that Caribbean stigma is not there and this is building from the ground up with two already established and well regarded institutions, I feel there is a chance for success that could put us well above the ranks of Caribbean IMG.

This talk about the MCAT is inane. The only reason it exists as an entry requirement at UQ SoM is because that is the only metric they can expect to have from American students. It would be ridiculous to expect us to take the GAMSAT. But trying to establish some sort of historical reference range of what is acceptable or competitive just makes no sense. In 4 years, after this program has churned out a couple of classes, then we can start normalizing that data.

As for USMLE and residency positions - that is ALWAYS a heady topic. And I have posted on it extensively so I will not waste my time again. Suffice it to say, that any IMG will have one big hindrance and one small advantage to any American medical graduate in looking for residency spots. The SoM does not prepare us for Step 1, period. It is entirely on us as a cohort and as individuals to ensure our solid marks and work for good placements. That is a reality and it will not change, unless, MAYBE, in 15 years there is full reciprocity and the LCME and the ECFMG no longer consider products of this program to be IMGs. Feel free to prattle on about what the odds of that may be, I don't care, since it won't ultimately affect me.

Now that you mention reciprocity, Australia approached the US ACGME many years ago about that but was given a firm no. The only foreign country that has reciprocity with the USA is Canada. Interestingly is that you are RACGP or recognized in another area, Canada recognizes Australian qualifications but I think there are some hoops to jump through anyway. Anyway, Australian schools will never get LCME accreditation, its not going to happen. The MCAT is actually quite important and its known to be a good indicator of future performance on board exams. The people I knew at USyd who did well on the USMLE had strong MCATs, good GPAs, and were solid students.

I got into two US medical schools myself, one in Michigan and the other in Ohio, turned them both down, moved to Australia, and applied to USyd through the local pool. I can tell you I am very happy with my decision. If I did not, I would probably toiling away in some craphole hospital in Detroit or Cleveland. feel the decision I made was the smartest ever and am not regretting going to Australia one bit. Also if you peruse a search, you will find Australian primary care physicians earn more than their American counterparts and also work less.

I heard that the Aussie is going to soon be $1.20 US yep its soon to be stronger than the US Dollar, which means going to medical school here is going to get really really expensive. I told some friends of mine to go to DO schools unless they really want to be in Australia. The type of students that go to Australian schools usually have MCATs over 30 which could make them contenders for the DO.

Don't sweat it. I think UQ is a great school and am not trying to knock it down but its class size is giant, double that of USyd and 4 times that of Flinders, that is big. Even the biggest US medical school which is a DO program has 500 students, LECOM, but its three separate schools.

I will acknowledge that I am a bit biased because I factor in the other factors of being in Australia such as the quality of life and lifestyle.

 

[nybgrus]

Now that you mention reciprocity, Australia approached the US ACGME many years ago about that but was given a firm no. The only foreign country that has reciprocity with the USA is Canada. Interestingly is that you are RACGP or recognized in another area, Canada recognizes Australian qualifications but I think there are some hoops to jump through anyway. Anyway, Australian schools will never get LCME accreditation, its not going to happen. The MCAT is actually quite important and its known to be a good indicator of future performance on board exams. The people I knew at USyd who did well on the USMLE had strong MCATs, good GPAs, and were solid students.

I got into two US medical schools myself, one in Michigan and the other in Ohio, turned them both down, moved to Australia, and applied to USyd through the local pool. I can tell you I am very happy with my decision. If I did not, I would probably toiling away in some craphole hospital in Detroit or Cleveland. feel the decision I made was the smartest ever and am not regretting going to Australia one bit. Also if you peruse a search, you will find Australian primary care physicians earn more than their American counterparts and also work less.

I heard that the Aussie is going to soon be $1.20 US yep its soon to be stronger than the US Dollar, which means going to medical school here is going to get really really expensive. I told some friends of mine to go to DO schools unless they really want to be in Australia. The type of students that go to Australian schools usually have MCATs over 30 which could make them contenders for the DO.

Don't sweat it. I think UQ is a great school and am not trying to knock it down but its class size is giant, double that of USyd and 4 times that of Flinders, that is big. Even the biggest US medical school which is a DO program has 500 students, LECOM, but its three separate schools.

I will acknowledge that I am a bit biased because I factor in the other factors of being in Australia such as the quality of life and lifestyle.

I agree with pretty much everything you have said. One thing though - I did not mean that the MCAT is a useless metric. I meant that it was a useless metric to use to try and gauge your competitiveness in entry to the UQ/Ochsner program. They set their minimum quite low, but do not delineate what is their actual criteria. My 38/T was certainly good enough. But a friend's 29/P was not. Everyone else seems to be somewhere in the low 30's. After a number of cohorts have gone through, then the average acceptance MCAT score can be meaningful.

Additionally, starting next year, we will not be paying in Aussie dollars. Tuition will be set at "approximately $50,000USD" and all tuition will be handled by American banks and in American dollars. Granted, that still means that converting the money in spending cash here will still suck, but at least we aren't getting reamed on the tuition.

As for me personally, I want to get back to the States. And I do not want to work in primary care. If EITHER I wanted to stay in Australia OR be a PCP then I would very seriously be looking at being in the local pool and staying here. That is a personal choice. But I certainly would not advocate for people to be doing this program if they had any intent on staying in Australia. And I would certainly recommend doing a DO over any international program if your sole intent is to practice in the states. I have my own reasons (mostly mistakes) as to why I am not in osteopathic school. But to anyone reading this, with hindsight, I certainly recommend pursuing DO aggressively as a superior alternative.

I am aware that Australia approached the ACGME. As I said before, I think that the likelihood of any reciprocity is not very high. However, I think that in the case of SPECIFICALLY the UQ/Ochsner program, given time, there is a chance that may happen (like SGU, but hopefully regarded more highly). It is certainly something that the cohorts would be keen on, and something that I reckon Ochsner would also love to accomplish. And lets face it - they are a big name with big cred. And American (and especially Louisiana) have an ever worsening physician shortage. As I said, it doesn't pertain to me. No matter what it will change nothing for me personally. I am just speculating.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

I agree with pretty much everything you have said. One thing though - I did not mean that the MCAT is a useless metric. I meant that it was a useless metric to use to try and gauge your competitiveness in entry to the UQ/Ochsner program. They set their minimum quite low, but do not delineate what is their actual criteria. My 38/T was certainly good enough. But a friend's 29/P was not. Everyone else seems to be somewhere in the low 30's. After a number of cohorts have gone through, then the average acceptance MCAT score can be meaningful.

Additionally, starting next year, we will not be paying in Aussie dollars. Tuition will be set at "approximately $50,000USD" and all tuition will be handled by American banks and in American dollars. Granted, that still means that converting the money in spending cash here will still suck, but at least we aren't getting reamed on the tuition.

As for me personally, I want to get back to the States. And I do not want to work in primary care. If EITHER I wanted to stay in Australia OR be a PCP then I would very seriously be looking at being in the local pool and staying here. That is a personal choice. But I certainly would not advocate for people to be doing this program if they had any intent on staying in Australia. And I would certainly recommend doing a DO over any international program if your sole intent is to practice in the states. I have my own reasons (mostly mistakes) as to why I am not in osteopathic school. But to anyone reading this, with hindsight, I certainly recommend pursuing DO aggressively as a superior alternative.

I am aware that Australia approached the ACGME. As I said before, I think that the likelihood of any reciprocity is not very high. However, I think that in the case of SPECIFICALLY the UQ/Ochsner program, given time, there is a chance that may happen (like SGU, but hopefully regarded more highly). It is certainly something that the cohorts would be keen on, and something that I reckon Ochsner would also love to accomplish. And lets face it - they are a big name with big cred. And American (and especially Louisiana) have an ever worsening physician shortage. As I said, it doesn't pertain to me. No matter what it will change nothing for me personally. I am just speculating.

Well for me, I wound up loving Australia and having a lot of work experience in the US, working in Australia is a lot different in that Australia offers a more balanced lifestyle. If UQ Ochsner is now pricing tuition in US dollars that should not be too bad but I doubt other schools will be doing that. I have been around many parts of the US, and the quality of life in Australia I find to be better than the USA.

Primary care tends to be the most frequent field for IMGs, matching into a specialty from a foreign school is tough. Its even hard for DOs to match into specialty programs. Also health care reform in the US is going to change things drastically in the US, specialist incomes are going to fall while primary care physician incomes will increase. I have spoken with a lot of doctors stateside and that will be the result of the new health care reform laws.

 

[pitman]

I heard that the Aussie is going to soon be $1.20 US yep its soon to be stronger than the US Dollar, which means going to medical school here is going to get really really expensive.

That's really an outlier in the predictions. Most banks are saying the AUD will likely be parity with the USD by early next year. Consider that exchange rates are like stocks in that if there was much confidence in a 20-25% increase over, say, the next year, everyone would be getting rich trading dollars.

Edit: I just saw on the ABC that Morgan Stanley has rated the AUD as one of the most over-valued currencies (at 30%!), which doesn't mean they're claiming it will come down anytime soon, but rather that it should eventually, and substantially. It also implies they think it's important for Australia to get back into surplus asap without substantial tax increases (ok, that part is my commentary, but I'd bet money they think that).

 

[PacificBlue2012]

That's really an outlier in the predictions. Most banks are saying the AUD will likely be parity with the USD by early next year. Consider that exchange rates are like stocks in that if there was much confidence in a 20-25% increase over, say, the next year, everyone would be getting rich trading dollars.

Edit: I just saw on the ABC that Morgan Stanley has rated the AUD as one of the most over-valued currencies (at 30%!), which doesn't mean they're claiming it will come down anytime soon, but rather that it should eventually, and substantially. It also implies they think it's important for Australia to get back into surplus asap without substantial tax increases (ok, that part is my commentary, but I'd bet money they think that).

The Aussie is already nearly there, it will very likely surpass the Dollar in value by next year.

The Fed just initiated QE2, they are devaluing the US dollar, further. While I hope for students who are coming here that the Aussie does not reach that level, I think it will remain roughly on par with the US Dollar for a while, its not going to go down anytime soon especially with China's voracious appetite for resources. As long as the Fed keeps a loose monetary policy the US dollar will remain weak and I doubt the Obama administration is going to change things. It also seems for the first time that the world economy is becoming immune to America's troubles. While most economies were affected by the GFC they are rebounding better than the US which is going into another recession.

I have been here since late 2003 and the Aussie has been jumping against the US Dollar ever since, only fell briefly in 2008 and then rebounded sharply.

But back to topic, my feeling is that students whose goal is to be in North America, should apply to DO schools. And looking at the kind of stats that people who apply to Aussie schools have, I am pretty sure most would be competitive for a DO school.

I do believe in the future that it will be more likely that students from Australia who go to North America will be going into primary care fields in the US as more medical schools open up. I was looking at some stats and some of the primary care fields such as Internal Medicine and Family Practice are mostly filled by non US grads. Part of the health reform plan suggests an increase in primary care training programs so this increases the likelyhood that IMGs will be in primary care. In fact the people I knew at USyd doing residency in the US are in those fields, one I know doing Family Medicine, the other Peds, and another doing IM.

 

[pitman]

While most economies were affected by the GFC they are rebounding better than the US which is going into another recession.

I still don't understand how you're saying such a thing, and so confidently, unless by "most economies" you mean the UK and parts of Asia, or by "rebounding better" you merely mean trend in the numbers independent of their absolute values...

First, the US is no longer in a recession, as it is growing (albeit too slowly at 1.7% to bring down a fairly constant 9.5% unemployment). True, the big concern is the decreased rates of growth for two quarters, but economists "put the chance of a US double-dip at less than 50%". (http://money.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8076609).

Meanwhile, Canada (10th largest economy) is not currently rebounding at all as it's had a decreased, and negative, growth for the past quarter (one more and it's a double dip recession by definition); Europe is screwed by continued sovereign debt with most countries employing austerity measures (overall GDP growth has been improving but is only 1%, while unemployment is at its highest during the crisis at over 10%); Japan's economy as usual is anemic (.37% GDP growth), with exports crippled by a rising yen (leading to their printing of money by the bucketload), with concurrent flat consumption.

The main exception is the UK, which has steadily improved from a low about that of the US (-2.4% to 1.2% growth) with unemployment stable at 7.8%.

China, India and Australia are also doing significantly better than the US. However I think it's more accurate to say that they're doing well now because they didn't experience much downturn in the first place, and thus it's difficult to say they're "rebounding better" (less to rebound from). If what matters then is the extent of a return to pre-GFC levels, Australia and India are indeed close to their pre-GFC growth but with higher unemployment levels, while China has instead cooled a bit at 10.3% growth, far below their high of 13%.

Really good site for international economics data:
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Economics/GDP-Growth.aspx?Symbol=JPY

 

[PacificBlue2012]

The US is still in serious economic trouble and the so called recovery in the US is running out of steam, so much that it spells big trouble for Obama. Most economies are doing quite well(Germany, China, Russia, India, Australia, Brazil, etc) Canada is practically the 51st US State, not a foreign country in the true sense, in fact when I mention those annoying North Americans I am talking about Canadians, who represent 85 percent of North Americans in the schools here, most of the Americans here actually love it here.

The UK?? The UK is in the ****s. Its no surprise many of them migrate here. Germany is the strongest economy in Europe, much stronger than the UK, in fact, if it keeps it up, the German economy will grow at nearly 10 percent per annum.

Even people at your old employer wrote a little piece about how the world economy is decoupling from the USA. Meaning the US's day in calling the shots is ending. Recovery?? Are you kidding me?? If everything was going back to normal why is it that Obama and his cronies are about to get a kick in the ass in November? A good economy usually means the incumbents keep their jobs.



You twisted my words on my previous post that its hard for internationals to stay here and get into training programs, and it is, a hospital is unlikely to sponsor someone for a visa when they know that they will probably not stick around. It is indeed hard for international students to stay and get into training programs unless they can get PR which is not easy because of the rules that exist here for getting PR are largely effed up. As I said a Nursing student got it a few months before finishing Nursing school but someone who graduated from USyd Medicine and did an internship did not.

 

[pitman]

The US is still in serious economic trouble and the so called recovery in the US is running out of steam, so much that it spells big trouble for Obama. Most economies are doing quite well(Germany, China, Russia, India, Australia, Brazil, etc)

Yes, two US quarters showed decreasing growth rates, which may or may not mean the trend will continue or lead to negative growth, which economists are far from convinced will happen (even money at best, which is far from the sure thing you claimed). You've then picked the best performers, and as you point out you cherry-picked Germany from the whole EU! You're the one who said *most* countries. And if size is now what matters with your belittling of Canada for being only the 10th largest economy, Japan is third, with the US first, so that line of argument just doesn't make sense.

You twisted my words on my previous post that its hard for internationals to stay here and get into training programs, and it is

No I didn't. I called you to task for what you actually said.

It is indeed hard for international students to stay and get into training programs unless they can get PR which is not easy because of the rules that exist here for getting PR are largely effed up. As I said a Nursing student got it a few months before finishing Nursing school but someone who graduated from USyd Medicine and did an internship did not.

Hmm. I will say this again -- independent of any problems getting internship, it's a very straight-forward and simple process to get PR. Once you get fully registered, you apply (the 176 is fastest, the skilled migration route is slower). Then you pay them money. Once you've applied, if you pass the medical and the police checks, there's no basis to get rejected unless you've lied on the application.

An unqualified anecdote of some friend who couldn't get PR following internship does not make getting it difficult. Maybe your friend has some police record, of failed the medical exam, or his check bounced, or maybe he wasn't able to apply in the first place because of a lack of points -- but if you think there's something more to it than that, explain where in the process there's some 'gotcha' that somehow snags people!

 

[pitman]

If everything was going back to normal why is it that Obama and his cronies are about to get a kick in the ass in November? A good economy usually means the incumbents keep their jobs.

I never argued that everything is going back to normal (in a straight line at least) in the US, I argued against any confident prediction that there will be a double dip recession there.

As to good economies and incumbents...look only at Rudd. Then look at how Gillard was not actually voted in, in a twice-ever minority Australian govt held together by the shoestrings of three parties. So that argument is just plain silly in this environment.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

I never argued that everything is going back to normal (in a straight line at least) in the US, I argued against any confident prediction that there will be a double dip recession there.

As to good economies and incumbents...look only at Rudd. Then look at how Gillard was not actually voted in, in a twice-ever minority Australian govt held together by the shoestrings of three parties. So that argument is just plain silly in this environment.

Obama was elected on the mantra of change and he was elected because he appealed to ordinary working people. He also became President because of voters in Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Virginia, which are swing states. These are states that will probably go Republican next time. The first three states are being hit particularly hard in this recession with double digit unemployment rates. A double dip is very likely in many of these regions and its does not bode well for Obama in 2012. There is already widespread talk in America that Obama is a one termer.

Comparing Australian and American politics is nonsense. American politics is about the economy. A bad economy destroys the incumbent party every time. Bush got reelected in 2004 because America was still in decent shape despite two wars. McCain lost in 2008 because the GFC started under Bush. The economy has worsened under Obama and that is why he is being attacked so viciously by the Tea Party and others. Even an African American woman asked Obama why she voted for him. His approval rating is at 42 percent, pretty horrible considering he has been President for only 1 year and 10 months and even Bush managed to maintain a higher approval rating.



If you are an international student on a visa at a medical school, you cannot use your degree to apply for PR without completing an internship year, and you need a PR in most cases to get an internship, some places will sponsor you but with more medical school graduates its becoming more unlikely that they will bother. Its different for other disciplines, such as Nursing or Physiotherapy, where you are qualified in those fields once you graduate and can use your degree to get PR.

That guy definitely had no criminal record, he is in a US program, and US residency programs put their applicants through a more intense background check than what is done in Australia. Getting a PR in NSW and Victoria is harder than Queensland. Just about everyone who comes to Australia wants to settle near Sydney or Melbourne.

 

[pitman]

Even an African American woman asked Obama why she voted for him.

How shocking, even some blacks don't like the black President.

If you are an international student on a visa at a medical school, you cannot use your degree to apply for PR without completing an internship year, and you need a PR in most cases to get an internship, some places will sponsor you but with more medical school graduates its becoming more unlikely that they will bother. Its different for other disciplines, such as Nursing or Physiotherapy, where you are qualified in those fields once you graduate and can use your degree to get PR.

And again, this is what you said...

I have a friend from NA who went to medical school at USyd, got an internship, finished it, applied for PR and he got denied. A friend of his studied Nursing and got it a month before she finished her degree, not exactly fair.

Therefore the context you created is getting PR *after* internship, as I have been responding to, which is systematic and a simple process. So don't be telling me I'm twisting your words.

Getting a PR in NSW and Victoria is harder than Queensland. Just about everyone who comes to Australia wants to settle near Sydney or Melbourne.

Huh? Do you mean it takes longer because those states don't have docs on their critical skills lists to expedite the process? 'Cause once you apply, whether you get PR is purely a federal matter.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

I can tell you that most people who migrate to Australia usually move to NSW or Victoria, and few years ago they had a backlog of PR applicants.


The issue with PR for medical students is that internship hurdle, once you finish the internship you can call legally call yourself a doctor for immigration purposes but the other catch is that in most cases you need a PR to get an internship, and with more local graduates, why is a hospital going to bother going through the trouble of sponsoring someone for a visa? Once you have an internship...in most cases its generally easy but its not 100 percent. My friend completed an internship and was not able to get it for whatever reason, I seriously doubt the guy has a criminal record, if he did have one, he would not be getting a job in the US, and US hospitals are way more anal than Australian ones. A hospital helped him get a temp visa and he was able to stay for the internship year, in most cases, international students cannot rely on this especially with so many more graduates.

I don't like Obama I guess that makes me a bigot?? Eh?? The left was thrashing Bush left and right for 8 years, and now if anyone says anything critical about what Obama is doing they are automatically racist. LOL.

He is the New Coke of Presidents, all hype and no substance, heck Mike the Situation has a better chance of being elected in 2012 than that fool. He will be going back to hustling on the streets of Chitown in a couple of years.

 

[jaketheory]

That guy definitely had no criminal record, he is in a US program, and US residency programs put their applicants through a more intense background check than what is done in Australia. Getting a PR in NSW and Victoria is harder than Queensland. Just about everyone who comes to Australia wants to settle near Sydney or Melbourne.

how is this even relevant. getting into a US program doesnt require getting PR, but you were saying it is getting hard to get PR in Aus based on this anecdote. right?

i dont see how this guy you know in a US program can support your claim of it getting hard to get Aus PR. If your friend has a US med degree, he'd have to go through the AMC certification process including one year supervised work/training. that is going to be a lot more difficult than an aus trained international getting an internship.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

how is this even relevant. getting into a US program doesnt require getting PR, but you were saying it is getting hard to get PR in Aus based on this anecdote. right?

i dont see how this guy you know in a US program can support your claim of it getting hard to get Aus PR. If your friend has a US med degree, he'd have to go through the AMC certification process including one year supervised work/training. that is going to be a lot more difficult than an aus trained international getting an internship.

No he is an Australian graduate and was an international student in the GEMP. He got a hospital to sponsor him for a visa so that he could work as an intern. His visa application was rejected when he applied for PR upon finishing his internship and he wound up going back home. He went to USyd and was looking to working in Australia but the DIAC changed his plans, so he wound up going to the US for training. And yes he was really upset about it. He is a US citizen, and does not need a PR to residency in the USA.

The issue is that using your medical degree for PR, you need to finish internship in order to be able to apply for points based immigration. That is the catch 22, this guy was a USyd graduate, and by all estimates he should have gotten a PR visa but did not.

 

[jaketheory]

No he is an Australian graduate and was an international student in the GEMP. He got a hospital to sponsor him for a visa so that he could work as an intern. His visa application was rejected when he applied for PR upon finishing his internship and he wound up going back home. He went to USyd and was looking to working in Australia but the DIAC changed his plans, so he wound up going to the US for training. And yes he was really upset about it. He is a US citizen, and does not need a PR to residency in the USA.

The issue is that using your medical degree for PR, you need to finish internship in order to be able to apply for points based immigration. That is the catch 22, this guy was a USyd graduate, and by all estimates he should have gotten a PR visa but did not.

hmmm. there would have been a reason they rejected his application. and if you get the internship, getting PR isnt hard to get and thus is not a catch 22. i'm sure internationals will be able to get internships for at least a few more years. they may have to go to rural areas, but if you want to stay you put up with it for a year, no biggie.

i applied through skilled migration from the US as an overseas applicant and had no problems. you friend must have had something that caused DIAC to reject his application, and if he overlooked something that would cause that, i'd say it was his fault for getting rejected, not DIAC's. plus, everyone should understand that coming here as an international student does not guarantee them a path to PR. tons of asians come here for that only to find that spending 2 years with only other asians doesnt improve their english well enough to get a score on the IELTS high enough for immigration. they score well enough to get into their uni course, but after 2 years studying, they still cant. only say this cuz i live with an asian that came over here for just that purpose and is aware he is aware this is happening to lots of asians.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

hmmm. there would have been a reason they rejected his application. and if you get the internship, getting PR isnt hard to get and thus is not a catch 22. i'm sure internationals will be able to get internships for at least a few more years. they may have to go to rural areas, but if you want to stay you put up with it for a year, no biggie.

i applied through skilled migration from the US as an overseas applicant and had no problems. you friend must have had something that caused DIAC to reject his application, and if he overlooked something that would cause that, i'd say it was his fault for getting rejected, not DIAC's. plus, everyone should understand that coming here as an international student does not guarantee them a path to PR. tons of asians come here for that only to find that spending 2 years with only other asians doesnt improve their english well enough to get a score on the IELTS high enough for immigration. they score well enough to get into their uni course, but after 2 years studying, they still cant. only say this cuz i live with an asian that came over here for just that purpose and is aware he is aware this is happening to lots of asians.

Well that is so wrong on many levels. Also I am well aware that there are students who take fluff courses like Hairdressing to get PR, up until recently many did, the government is shutting that down. Australia is in serious need of doctors, and international students would make ideal candidates to fill the doctor workforce. That being said in most cases but not all you will need a PR to get an internship. Usually after the internship you can get PR, I do not know the exact details of my friend's application. I applied for a PR 7 years ago as an offshore, it was definitely easier back then compared to now. For most cases, if you can get an internship spot then getting the PR is a pretty straighforward process.

Its kind of odd that they know enough English to get into a university but not enough to the pass the English test. I also know its way easier for people in other courses to get the PR such as Nursing and Physiotherapy than it is for Medicine. I know Australia also has a Nurse shortage as well.

Pitman seems to have been in Oz longer than I, and he says that this internship and student tsunami issue is old news so hopefully the government will increase spaces to a degree that internationals in the future will be able to stay in Oz. I personally know one other international who solved his immigration issue by getting married that is pretty much a guaranteed PR assuming its a genuine marriage which for him is real.

 

[jaketheory]

I am well aware that there are students who take fluff courses like Hairdressing to get PR, up until recently many did, the government is shutting that down.

yeah, but plenty very intelligent people come to Aus study and take serious courses with the hopes of staying afterwards. my flat mate is doing a 2 year masters in networking (or some related IT degree). he specifically choose to do the 2 year course rather than similar one year courses because spending 2 years at uni earns you additional points.

Australia is in serious need of doctors, and international students would make ideal candidates to fill the doctor workforce.

yeah, but the tsunami is coming and its only fair to put your own citizens first. for example, Australia's tax payers pay for the government's contribution for Commwealth supported places in medical school. To hire an international instead would mean the australian tax payer's investment in training that student was a waste. i know i'm exageratting it, but i think it make sense, and in general in most countries an orgainzation can only hire foreigners if they can show they cannot attract an appropriately qualified local. with the flood of new graduates about to hit, it will be very hard to substantiate a claim that one couldnt find a qualified local. competition will get fierce for internships an even locals will be forced into regional and rural areas.

I applied for a PR 7 years ago as an offshore, it was definitely easier back then compared to now. For most cases, if you can get an internship spot then getting the PR is a pretty straighforward process.

i applied in Sept 2008 and had my visa by May 2009. in late 2008 the regulations of skilled immigration were changed in response to the GFC. it has meant much, much greater waiting times for visa application processing. i know people that have applied within the last year and say they dont expect to get their visa for about 3 years. that said, the changes, in general, dont mean people that would otherwise get a visa are getting rejected. it just means it is taking much longer for them to get it.

Its kind of odd that they know enough English to get into a university but not enough to the pass the English test. I also know its way easier for people in other courses to get the PR such as Nursing and Physiotherapy than it is for Medicine. I know Australia also has a Nurse shortage as well.

i thought it was odd too. apparently, at least in china, they have english language courses that train you specifically to do well on the english language test. they dont actually train them to engage in conversation well. the applicants do well enough to come here to study, but immigration requires a higher score on the english language test. because they cannot converse well, while they are here they tend to only hang out with other chinese, speaking almost entirely in Chinese save for in class time. when it comes time to retest for immigration, there scores havent improved enough and they dont qualify.

and yeah, its fairly easy for nurses. i looked into it about 4 years and then realized nursing students must clean peoples arses. no thank you.

Pitman seems to have been in Oz longer than I, and he says that this internship and student tsunami issue is old news so hopefully the government will increase spaces to a degree that internationals in the future will be able to stay in Oz. I personally know one other international who solved his immigration issue by getting married that is pretty much a guaranteed PR assuming its a genuine marriage which for him is real.

it is old news. in the 90's when the graduate entry courses were fitrs offered, internationals had to sign statements saying they understood they would not be allowed to stay for internship. by the time they graduated the climate had changed and had people were staying despite having signed that statement.

but i still say no one should come here under the assumption they will be alble to stay. laws change, etc. . . you mentioned the hairdressers and such. a few months ago there was a rally at Sydney TOwn Hall with people complaining about how the laws had changed and now they would not be able to stay. they came here believing they would be able to stay. they shouldve known it wasnt guaranteed. i signed their petition only because it doesnt hurt me to do so and it helps their cause, but i still think they were wrong to assume doing a course would allow them to stay. besides, signing that petition wont change anything. the law has already been changed (as far as i know).

 

[PacificBlue2012]

yeah, but plenty very intelligent people come to Aus study and take serious courses with the hopes of staying afterwards. my flat mate is doing a 2 year masters in networking (or some related IT degree). he specifically choose to do the 2 year course rather than similar one year courses because spending 2 years at uni earns you additional points.



yeah, but the tsunami is coming and its only fair to put your own citizens first. for example, Australia's tax payers pay for the government's contribution for Commwealth supported places in medical school. To hire an international instead would mean the australian tax payer's investment in training that student was a waste. i know i'm exageratting it, but i think it make sense, and in general in most countries an orgainzation can only hire foreigners if they can show they cannot attract an appropriately qualified local. with the flood of new graduates about to hit, it will be very hard to substantiate a claim that one couldnt find a qualified local. competition will get fierce for internships an even locals will be forced into regional and rural areas.



i applied in Sept 2008 and had my visa by May 2009. in late 2008 the regulations of skilled immigration were changed in response to the GFC. it has meant much, much greater waiting times for visa application processing. i know people that have applied within the last year and say they dont expect to get their visa for about 3 years. that said, the changes, in general, dont mean people that would otherwise get a visa are getting rejected. it just means it is taking much longer for them to get it.



i thought it was odd too. apparently, at least in china, they have english language courses that train you specifically to do well on the english language test. they dont actually train them to engage in conversation well. the applicants do well enough to come here to study, but immigration requires a higher score on the english language test. because they cannot converse well, while they are here they tend to only hang out with other chinese, speaking almost entirely in Chinese save for in class time. when it comes time to retest for immigration, there scores havent improved enough and they dont qualify.

and yeah, its fairly easy for nurses. i looked into it about 4 years and then realized nursing students must clean peoples arses. no thank you.



it is old news. in the 90's when the graduate entry courses were fitrs offered, internationals had to sign statements saying they understood they would not be allowed to stay for internship. by the time they graduated the climate had changed and had people were staying despite having signed that statement.

but i still say no one should come here under the assumption they will be alble to stay. laws change, etc. . . you mentioned the hairdressers and such. a few months ago there was a rally at Sydney TOwn Hall with people complaining about how the laws had changed and now they would not be able to stay. they came here believing they would be able to stay. they shouldve known it wasnt guaranteed. i signed their petition only because it doesnt hurt me to do so and it helps their cause, but i still think they were wrong to assume doing a course would allow them to stay. besides, signing that petition wont change anything. the law has already been changed (as far as i know).

Well there is huge demand for other medical professionals in Australia in addition to doctors. Dentists, Nurses, PTs, OTs, even Chiropractors. I know that its really easy for students in these courses to stay in Australia after finishing, especially for PTs and Nurses.

The ones being asked to leave are the ones in the TAFE courses, even locals will tell you those courses are a one way ticket to nowhere, its all vocational stuff like Latte making and hair dressing and apparently they are trying to make it easier for people in more serious studies to stay which I think is better. The Australians are onto the fact that so many people have taken advantage of the loophole. Its really unfair that someone who studies hair dressing has an easier time getting PR than someone who was in Medicine, finished four years of rigorous study, and internship, and then gets asked to leave. BS if you ask me.

I myself had nearly 10 years of work experience when I applied for PR, also had glowing references from managers at some pretty big companies.

Nurses are almost always on the list, and get PR rather easily, the reason is that many Aussie nurses often go overseas to work, especially in the Gulf region, where they pay them a lot more, that and the extremely high turnover. My wife was a Nurse for a few years and then decided to go into Medicine.

But anyway the DIAC should be looking to take people who will fit into Australia and contribute the most, a doctor has far more potential to contribute than a hair dresser or latte maker. Also considering the kind of trouble in the Western suburbs of both Sydney and Melbourne, I do not blame most Aussies for tightening up immigration.

 

[jaketheory]

fair enough, but everyone will be in big trouble if there isnt someone to hand me my latte.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

fair enough, but everyone will be in big trouble if there isnt someone to hand me my latte.

Baristas do not seem to be in short supply and those indy coffee shops pushed Starbucks out of the Aussie market. I think there is only one Starbucks in Sydney on George Street. Even the dude at the BP on Parramatta Road makes a decent coffee.