Official Diploma Mill List

[297point1]

I want to know where all of the P4 money goes. I'm a preceptor and we (the site, not me) get paid but it's 25-30% of what my students pay in tuition to state schools. WTF happens to the rest of that money?

Cost of education, year one: $35,000
Cost of education, year two: $35,000
Cost of education, year three: $35,000
Cost of education, year four: $12,000

Now, a school could charge that at face value, and offer a discount to the P4's.

Or, a school could average the cost over all four years and charge the mean cost per year (in this instance, $29,250 per year times four years). Sure, the P4 year doesn't cost $29k...but then again neither do the P1-P3 years. Most schools do this.

And then there is USP, which seems to undercharge for year years 1-5 (if you can call $29k/year an undercharge) and then a final year of $45,700. Hope you've got your pennies saved pwb2!

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[ValeRx]

I agree. If they make tiers, I hope tier 1 schools require a bachelor's degree.

I know a bachelors degree doesn't mean anything but it is just the logical progression for a doctoral professional degree, just like most md and law degrees. You gotta do the time to earn the title. 21,22,23 year olds should not be drs unless they are Neal Patrick Harris... Of course!

I hate to tell you but a LOT of MD programs do NOT REQUIRE a Bachelor's degree. Granted 99.9% of students accepted do have them, they aren't required.

You missed the entire concept of a professional degree and why the PharmD is a professional degree, a professional school and not a PhD program.

 

[apteryx]

so apteryx, which mill do you go to

Dr. Nick's College of Osteopathic Veterinary Pharmacy. Very elite. One of my professors is so good that he's beyond obtaining these lame "credentials" like a "PharmD", or any form of "higher education". He was already mixing the green play-doh with the red as a baby; a born compounder.

 

[pharmwannebe2]

Cost of education, year one: $35,000
Cost of education, year two: $35,000
Cost of education, year three: $35,000
Cost of education, year four: $12,000

Now, a school could charge that at face value, and offer a discount to the P4's.

Or, a school could average the cost over all four years and charge the mean cost per year (in this instance, $29,250 per year times four years). Sure, the P4 year doesn't cost $29k...but then again neither do the P1-P3 years. Most schools do this.

And then there is USP, which seems to undercharge for year years 1-5 (if you can call $29k/year an undercharge) and then a final year of $45,700. Hope you've got your pennies saved pwb2!

Lol. Although that is steep for USP, most east coast pharm schools charge ridiculous amounts. I wouldn't include the first two years for USP....because they are pre-pharm....I think it would be the same cost if I was to attend most private schools for pre-pharm (I mean all the non-pharm, biology majors pay that price at USP).

Temple University (out of state cause that is what I would be):
35,192x4 years (higher than USP).

Jefferson University: 29,881x4 years.



I do agree USP does suck in the fact that they charge an exorbitant amount for last year (probably because USP pays for rotation sites and schools such as Temple do not).

 

[owlegrad]

Or, a school could average the cost over all four years and charge the mean cost per year (in this instance, $29,250 per year times four years). Sure, the P4 year doesn't cost $29k...but then again neither do the P1-P3 years. Most schools do this.

This is what my school does as well.

 

[museabuse]

I hate to tell you but a LOT of MD programs do NOT REQUIRE a Bachelor's degree. Granted 99.9% of students accepted do have them, they aren't required.

You missed the entire concept of a professional degree and why the PharmD is a professional degree, a professional school and not a PhD program.

ok, if they tier pharmacy schools, I hope tier 1 schools accept students with bachelor degrees 99.9% of the time.

 

[rph3664]

Personally, I don't trust any school that's younger than I am.

I would hardly consider Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville (SIU-E), which just graduated its first class last year, a diploma mill. Granted, they didn't get fully accredited until last year, but IMHO they have a good program.

 

[Its Z]

im not going to say diploma mill grads suck or their education is any less one way or another. but most private pharmacy schools outside of the 70 or so old pharmacy schools that were in existence in the mid 90s are diploma mills who got on the profiteering bandwagon to gouge students.

the debate isnt the quality of pharmacists. the real debate is the level of mal-impact those schools will have on the future of our profession.

 

[Its Z]

so that being said.... i will say those mill schools suck because founders of those schools are responsible for destroying pharmacy. good enough reason to boycott them and go to a non mill school.

 

[byork]

Any school that was opened after 1850 is a second rate establishment, IMO.

My school started in 1882, does that mean it's a diploma mill?

 

[pharm B]

My school started in 1882, does that mean it's a diploma mill?

Oh yeah, big time.

Any school founded post-Reconstruction was obviously just trying to make a buck.

 

[Praziquantel86]

Since we're throwing anecdotes about D'Youville around...

How about a student who repeated P2 year, then failed out, and now is in their inaugural class?

Also, how about their claim to educate Canadian students because "they're closer to the border" than UB. Last time I looked, Canadian citizens can't get licensed in New York.

I also can't wait to see their inaugural class' GPA. For some reason, I feel like it will be slightly below UB's minimum requirement for early assurance...

 

[KARM12]

I would hardly consider Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville (SIU-E), which just graduated its first class last year, a diploma mill. Granted, they didn't get fully accredited until last year, but IMHO they have a good program.

I agree with this 100%. SIU-E is a new, but legit school. They opened up where there was a need at the time. They are also very good about who they accept. The majority...like over 80% are from central and southern IL.

This is unlike the new schools that all opened in Chicago area (Chicago State, Roosevelt, Rosalind Franklin). UIC has been around forever and Midwestern is 20yrs old. Between those 2, they pump out over 300 grads to the area every yr. That is plenty for a now very saturated market. With these new schools, that number will more than double. Think about it, with two well establsihed schools with a good alumni base, these new schools don't stand a chance in this market.

 

[Its Z]

u must be a mill alum or a faculty or something. traitor!!

I agree with this 100%. SIU-E is a new, but legit school. They opened up where there was a need at the time. They are also very good about who they accept. The majority...like over 80% are from central and southern IL.

This is unlike the new schools that all opened in Chicago area (Chicago State, Roosevelt, Rosalind Franklin). UIC has been around forever and Midwestern is 20yrs old. Between those 2, they pump out over 300 grads to the area every yr. That is plenty for a now very saturated market. With these new schools, that number will more than double. Think about it, with two well establsihed schools with a good alumni base, these new schools don't stand a chance in this market.

 

[rph3664]

Drake University, in Des Moines, was known as a diploma mill, and not just in pharmacy, for a long time. They almost lost their accreditation in the 1980s because of the number of graduates who never passed their boards within 5 years of graduation.

My father has an education degree from there (class of 1960) and it was quite a prestigious school at the time.

 

[bacillus1]

And then there is USP, which seems to undercharge for year years 1-5 (if you can call $29k/year an undercharge) and then a final year of $45,700. Hope you've got your pennies saved pwb2!

Agreed, it's ridiculous. But let's break it down a little further.
Year 1-2 is 29k/year minus the 7k "merit grant", which is a way for them to get a tax write-off or something like that by having everyone have 7k off their tuition unless they're on conduct probation on something.
Year 3-5 is 32k minus the merit grant.
Year 6 is 46k minus the merit grant.

Yes, I agree it's still ridiculously expensive, and I have no idea why they change $13k more just for 2 extra rotation, but this seems a little justified, at least in comparison to the cost of some newer schools. Still, I think the students need to demand an audit of where this "rotation differential" goes, but no one agrees to take any action, and I don't want to piss off everyone at the school and then be left jobless.

 

[FredDurst]

Hawaii College of Pharmacy

 

[spacecowgirl]

If the inagural COP class wasn't able to pay with Confederate dollars, you must go to a diploma mill.

 

[genesis09]

If the inagural COP class wasn't able to pay with Confederate dollars, you must go to a diploma mill.

I think only six schools or so were around in the 1860s. UIC, the 6th oldest school was founded in 1859.
SIUE is a solid school with a good reputation. It is no diploma mill. It is the other large, public, health care school in Illinois.

Per my RxS, Milwaukee market, a favorite for UIC/Midwestern students to go when can't find a position in the Chicago area, is fairly full. He doesn't even know if he will hire anyone come winter.

 

[byork]

Also, how about their claim to educate Canadian students because "they're closer to the border" than UB. Last time I looked, Canadian citizens can't get licensed in New York.

Can you explain how this makes them a diploma mill?

 

[adma826]

Dr. Nick's College of Osteopathic Veterinary Pharmacy.

"hello everybody!"

"Hello Dr. Nick!"

 

[KARM12]

u must be a mill alum or a faculty or something. traitor!!

I wouldn't be caught dead living in Southern IL...plus this school didn't admit their first class until AFTER I started my PharmD.

 

[Praziquantel86]

Can you explain how this makes them a diploma mill?

Sure! They open, telling ACPE that they will be taking a number of Canadian students and training them to practice. However, Canadian students fail to attend the school for two reasons: one, they're Canadian, and don't need a PharmD to practice in Canada. Two, it is impossible for them to become licensed in the state in which they attend school, so they choose to go and practice elsewhere.

So, there are two issues here. First, the Canadian students don't come in the first place. Second, the few that do come (no more than anywhere else) don't contribute to the local community after graduation, through no fault of their own.

So, D'Youville fills those empty spots with students who were rejected from one (or three, if you count SJFC and LECOM) local school(s). This, coupled with a few other issues, makes me feel they are not meeting their duty as a school of pharmacy.

 

[spacecowgirl]

I think only six schools or so were around in the 1860s. UIC, the 6th oldest school was founded in 1859.
SIUE is a solid school with a good reputation. It is no diploma mill. It is the other large, public, health care school in Illinois.

You know I was joking, right?

 

[samuricool]

so that being said.... i will say those mill schools suck because founders of those schools are responsible for destroying pharmacy. good enough reason to boycott them and go to a non mill school.

I completely agree with this statement. Unfortunately, when/if someone turns them down they wont have to look far to find someone who will fill their spot.

 

[genesis09]

You know I was joking, right?

Of course. Just saying there weren't a lot of pharmacy schools dating from the 1860s.

 

[SomeGuy]

Also, how about their claim to educate Canadian students because "they're closer to the border" than UB. Last time I looked, Canadian citizens can't get licensed in New York.

You might want to look again.

SDN is always a good laugh for inaccuracies about Canadians and getting licensed as an RPh in the USA, that's for sure.

Oh, and Canadians have been going to places like Wayne State, UB and Albany College of Pharmacy for quite a while now, as the Canadian schools have been difficult to get into for a while now.

Metric tons of Canadians have been going to D'Youville for their Masters in Education program, since teaching is considered a respected (and well-paid) profession in Canada. The school is more recognizable than some in-province school, going there isn't such a foreign idea.

 

[BuffaloPills]

D'Youville College of Pharmacy (3)
University of the Incarnate Word Feik School of Pharmacy (2)
College of Norte Dame School of Pharmacy (2)
Roosevelt University (2)
NEUCOM (2)
Concordia University (2)
Appalachian College of Pharmacy (2)

In order by State: I agree the term diploma mill is being incorrectly used. These schools are all less than 15 years old. I'm certainly not questioning their legitimacy, just listing new schools that by age default would be considered low tier schools.

Harding University
Loma Linda
Pacific university
Western University
Touro-Cal
California Northern State
Regis
Palm Beach Atlantic
South university
University Hawaii Hilo
Chicago State
Southern Illinois
Sullivan University
University of New England
University of Southern Nevada
St. John Fisher
Touro-NY
Wingate
LECOM
Wilkes University
Thomas Jefferson
South Carolina SOP
East Tennessee State
Belmont
Lipscomb
Union University
University of Charleston

 

[JackFruitLover]

Why is it that you only see UF students and faculty condescending other schools? I mean I understand its a great school, but so what? I mean its not like getting into a Warton School of Business and having a chance to become a millionaire! They just have a better chance of getting a residency which is meaningless to the majority of UF graduates who end up in retail/staff pharmacy right after graduation like the REST OF US!

Oh and btw, I keep seeing this ad on facebook below. Its funny how the Dean talks about "Degree Mills" and then allows this ad to be placed on facebook!

 

[SomeGuy]

Oh and btw, I keep seeing this ad on facebook below. Its funny how the Dean talks about "Degree Mills" and then allows this add to be placed on facebook!

How does advertising your program make it a degree mill? Isn't this just increasing awareness? It's not like the program would be empty without the advertising, they're just getting better applicants out of it.

 

[OCizzle]

Please remember that the views of one poster do not reflect those of an entire school. All of the pharmacists and students I met from UF--even before I applied--were very friendly and down to earth, not once were any of my other school choices put down or spoken bad of.

 

[aboveliquidice]

Please remember that the views of one poster do not reflect those of an entire school. All of the pharmacists and students I met from UF--even before I applied--were very friendly and down to earth, not once were any of my other school choices put down or spoken bad of.

You clearly haven't spent time at Shands then. It's narcissism brought to a new level. While I was proud to attend UF, I was happy to attend Pharm school elsewhere.

 

[MountainPharmD]

Just becasue you have been around for awhile doesn't mean you are good.

http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2009/02/accrediting_group_puts_xavier.html

February 13, 2009. The accreditation of Xavier University's College of Pharmacy, one of its marquee assets, has been put on probation for the first time in its 82-year existence.

 

[rph3664]

Just becasue you have been around for awhile doesn't mean you are good.

http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2009/02/accrediting_group_puts_xavier.html

February 13, 2009. The accreditation of Xavier University's College of Pharmacy, one of its marquee assets, has been put on probation for the first time in its 82-year existence.

IIRC, that school was heavily damaged in Hurricane Katrina. I wonder if this is some of the fallout from that.

 

[Praziquantel86]

You might want to look again.

SDN is always a good laugh for inaccuracies about Canadians and getting licensed as an RPh in the USA, that's for sure.

Oh, and Canadians have been going to places like Wayne State, UB and Albany College of Pharmacy for quite a while now, as the Canadian schools have been difficult to get into for a while now.

Metric tons of Canadians have been going to D'Youville for their Masters in Education program, since teaching is considered a respected (and well-paid) profession in Canada. The school is more recognizable than some in-province school, going there isn't such a foreign idea.

Actually, I look quite frequently. New York State (note: not the whole U.S.) actually has a citizenship requirement - if you're not a citizen, you can't be licensed as a pharmacist. I've been lobbying to change this for 3 years (to the legislature, not a letter writing campaign) because I hate seeing my Canadian classmates leave New York simply because they could not get their license.

You should get your facts straight before you edit your posts to try to one-up me.

And what does a M.S.Ed. have to do with anything? Bully for them, but I don't really care where Canadian teachers get their degrees. I do care about where American pharmacists get theirs, and it shouldn't be D'Youville.

 

[Sparda29]

Actually, I look quite frequently. New York State (note: not the whole U.S.) actually has a citizenship requirement - if you're not a citizen, you can't be licensed as a pharmacist. I've been lobbying to change this for 3 years (to the legislature, not a letter writing campaign) because I hate seeing my Canadian classmates leave New York simply because they could not get their license.

You should get your facts straight before you edit your posts to try to one-up me.

And what does a M.S.Ed. have to do with anything? Bully for them, but I don't really care where Canadian teachers get their degrees. I do care about where American pharmacists get theirs, and it shouldn't be D'Youville.

Isn't that a good thing? If everyone's complaining about a surplus, just make it a requirement that you need to be a US Citizen to work as a pharmacist, instead of having these guys come over from other countries to take our jobs.

 

[spacecowgirl]

South Carolina COP is actually a consolidation of USC (founded 1865) and MUSC (founded1881). I suppose "technically" it's a new school, but really it's two very old schools under one name now.

 

[p-rog]

Isn't that a good thing? If everyone's complaining about a surplus, just make it a requirement that you need to be a US Citizen to work as a pharmacist, instead of having these guys come over from other countries to take our jobs.

[YOUTUBE]sIzivCJ9pzU[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Praziquantel86]

Isn't that a good thing? If everyone's complaining about a surplus, just make it a requirement that you need to be a US Citizen to work as a pharmacist, instead of having these guys come over from other countries to take our jobs.

I don't care if a person is a citizen or not, so long as that person was held to the same educational standards every step of the way. Someone who sat next to me through four years of pharmacy school should be able to get a job in the same state where they attended school.

 

[SomeGuy]

Actually, I look quite frequently. New York State (note: not the whole U.S.) actually has a citizenship requirement - if you're not a citizen, you can't be licensed as a pharmacist. I've been lobbying to change this for 3 years (to the legislature, not a letter writing campaign) because I hate seeing my Canadian classmates leave New York simply because they could not get their license.

You should get your facts straight before you edit your posts to try to one-up me.

And what does a M.S.Ed. have to do with anything? Bully for them, but I don't really care where Canadian teachers get their degrees. I do care about where American pharmacists get theirs, and it shouldn't be D'Youville.

From the NY State Board of Pharmacy:
"be a United States citizen or alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States".
Sure, getting a green card holder and getting a TN1 are very different in terms of difficulty, someone could be years away from getting citizenship while having a green card.

re: my edits, how many posts were made between my post and final edit? That's right, zero.

re: The references to Canadians getting Masters in Education degrees in New York was to debunk your theory about Canadians not going to a school in New York because they don't need a PharmD. In other words, Canadians will go to a US school to get ultimately inflated credentials if they can't get into a Canadian school for Canadian credentials, whether it be for teaching or pharmacy.

 

[confettiflyer]

D'Youville College of Pharmacy (3)
University of the Incarnate Word Feik School of Pharmacy (2)
College of Norte Dame School of Pharmacy (2)
Roosevelt University (2)
NEUCOM (2)
Concordia University (2)
Appalachian College of Pharmacy (2)

In order by State: I agree the term diploma mill is being incorrectly used. These schools are all less than 15 years old. I'm certainly not questioning their legitimacy, just listing new schools that by age default would be considered low tier schools.

Harding University
Loma Linda
University of the Pacific
Western University
Touro-Cal
California Northern State
Regis
Palm Beach Atlantic
South university
University Hawaii Hilo
Chicago State
Southern Illinois
Sullivan University
University of New England
University of Southern Nevada
St. John Fisher
Touro-NY
Wingate
LECOM
Wilkes University
Thomas Jefferson
South Carolina SOP
East Tennessee State
Belmont
Lipscomb
Union University
University of Charleston

lol, how is UOP less than 15yrs old. my old boss graduated from there in the 70's. apparently tuition was $12k and so was the starting salary for a pharmacist.

 

[1ive2die]

Sure! They open, telling ACPE that they will be taking a number of Canadian students and training them to practice. However, Canadian students fail to attend the school for two reasons: one, they're Canadian, and don't need a PharmD to practice in Canada. Two, it is impossible for them to become licensed in the state in which they attend school, so they choose to go and practice elsewhere.

So, there are two issues here. First, the Canadian students don't come in the first place. Second, the few that do come (no more than anywhere else) don't contribute to the local community after graduation, through no fault of their own.

So, D'Youville fills those empty spots with students who were rejected from one (or three, if you count SJFC and LECOM) local school(s). This, coupled with a few other issues, makes me feel they are not meeting their duty as a school of pharmacy.

How do Canadians even get into D`Youville. There are so many pre-reqs that Canadians would not even have such as American History, public speaking, etc.

 

[Tinkerbell22]

Add PCOM in Ga

There is already a saturation in Georgia, yet that school still opens up acting like there is a shortage. If PCOM is the only school you can get into then you shouldn't be in pharmacy. Hell, if the only schools you can get into are the candiate or pre candiate schools then you shouldn't be in pharmacy.

Apparently the Georgia BOP didn't raise our intern application fees this year because they're getting 75 more dues paid through PCOM... lol

I totally wanted to get up and play the organ today after the APhA meeting! haha Are you going to join any special population committees this year? I want to join the elderly patient group so I can get service learning hours doing something I'm interested in.

 

[SHC1984]

Apparently the Georgia BOP didn't raise our intern application fees this year because they're getting 75 more dues paid through PCOM... lol

I totally wanted to get up and play the organ today after the APhA meeting! haha Are you going to join any special population committees this year? I want to join the elderly patient group so I can get service learning hours doing something I'm interested in.

Hey!!! I try to stay off SDN during school, but I am just so addicted to this site! haha...I wish I can play an instrument! I am going to join the APhA, GSHP and hopfully get into Rho Chi next semester. That is all that I am doing....I already did my service learning hours during the summer. For P2 and P3 you are allow to finish your service learning hours during the summer so I already got that done! thank god, b/c second year is 1000000X the busy work of first year. This week isn't very bad yet b/c we haven't started lab, IPPE or any POP activities yet...next week and thereafter is going to be one big BUSY WORK YEAR! I can't wait till I graduate.

Oh and if you can't find a job it's most likely b/c PCOM is opened now and that adds even more saturation to the already over saturated area we are in. LOL....

 

[Farmercyst]

lol, how is UOP less than 15yrs old. my old boss graduated from there in the 70's. apparently tuition was $12k and so was the starting salary for a pharmacist.

Maybe they meant Pacific University. UOP's SOP has been open for quite some time now. (not 1880s, but not longer than 1980s)

 

[atticus27]

The same 3 losers on this site are always spouting the same bullshiet.

 

[RX CARE]

The issue of diploma mills and jobs.....hmmm.
Look at it this way. Consider teaching as a career option. It may turn out to be a good thing. Meaning there will be all these faculty positions opening up. If you can handle dealing with writing exams and crazy students...it also may just mean more jobs than the norms we are all used to.

 

[BuffaloPills]

lol, how is UOP less than 15yrs old. my old boss graduated from there in the 70's. apparently tuition was $12k and so was the starting salary for a pharmacist.

Sorry not UOP, Pacific University

 

[RX CARE]

D'Youville College of Pharmacy (3)
University of the Incarnate Word Feik School of Pharmacy (2)
College of Norte Dame School of Pharmacy (2)
Roosevelt University (2)
NEUCOM (2)
Concordia University (2)
Appalachian College of Pharmacy (2)

In order by State: I agree the term diploma mill is being incorrectly used. These schools are all less than 15 years old. I'm certainly not questioning their legitimacy, just listing new schools that by age default would be considered low tier schools.

Harding University
Loma Linda
Pacific university
Western University
Touro-Cal
California Northern State
Regis
Palm Beach Atlantic
South university
University Hawaii Hilo
Chicago State
Southern Illinois
Sullivan University
University of New England
University of Southern Nevada
St. John Fisher
Touro-NY
Wingate
LECOM
Wilkes University
Thomas Jefferson
South Carolina SOP
East Tennessee State
Belmont
Lipscomb
Union University
University of Charleston

Manchester College, School of Pharmacy, IN
St. Joseph's, CT

 

[Its Z]

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