Obamacare is a Complete Failure

[NickNaylor]

You mean a bunch of people with 6 figure incomes, who don't have any problems affording health care...

They know the science and how their field works, that's it.

I'm actually an independent. Too much bs and special interests in both parties.

Is someone who has spent no time practicing medicine preferred?

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[ajh1983]

Most of the top undergraduate universities are quite liberal.

Sigh...... No s***.

 

[Roxas]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140602162652.htm

Not really relevant. I don't care that campaign donations increased, or that they went to Democrats. I'm not even arguing the fact the field is becoming more generally liberal (which I believe is largely on social issues). Your original question was what the general physician population thinks regarding fiscal political issues, and I tried to answer that for you.

 

[Roxas]

You mean a bunch of people with 6 figure incomes, who don't have any problems affording health care...

They know the science and how their field works, that's it.

I'm actually an independent. Too much bs and special interests in both parties.

Edit: It's very easy for the people with the best health care to say we don't need any reform.

Yep, keep this attitude up through med school. I'm sure professors, residents and PDs will love to be told how the world works by you.

 

[Mad Jack]

Hence single payer. A lot of middlemen lose their jobs..

Am I the only one on sdn that believes in a single payer or hybrid system?

There are a few people out there, but the number drastically plummets after people are actually in medical school and see first hand what a living hell the government makes practicing medicine. Spend a few years in a hospital and you'll quickly understand why the government has no place running the entire insurance industry.

 

[Mad Jack]

You mean a bunch of people with 6 figure incomes, who don't have any problems affording health care...

They know the science and how their field works, that's it.

I'm actually an independent. Too much bs and special interests in both parties.

Edit: It's very easy for the people with the best health care to say we don't need any reform.

We certainly need reform. We just don't need socialized medicine.

 

[ERK123]

Not really relevant. I don't care that campaign donations increased, or that they went to Democrats. I'm not even arguing the fact the field is becoming more generally liberal (which I believe is largely on social issues). Your original question was what the general physician population thinks regarding fiscal political issues, and I tried to answer that for you.

My original question was how representative SDN is of the physician population as a whole so we would need data about the political leanings of SDNers to compare to the poll you linked. The reason I linked another study (albeit looking at political donations instead of a general sample of political officiation) is because you can only tell so much from one poll. I haven't been able to find another poll other than the Rasmussen one that you linked. Polls can have incredibly variable results based on methodology. Just take a look at a compilation of current Obama approval ratings http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140602162652.htm where there is an 8 point difference among different polling companies (and that is pretty small variance compared to a couple months ago). Rasmussen keeps their polling methodology proprietary so it is difficult to assess the accuracy of the poll.

 

[Roxas]

There are a few people out there, but the number drastically plummets after people are actually in medical school and see first hand what a living hell the government makes practicing medicine. Spend a few years in a hospital and you'll quickly understand why the government has no place running the entire insurance industry.

b..b...b...but Mad Jack, the government would never do anything that wasn't in the people's best interest! How dare you speak ill regarding the governments impeccable history of efficiency and responsibility with finances. Oh wait....

 

[ERK123]

How do u know how he paid for his house? He told u? Arent orthopedic surgeries very physically rough on the person who is doing it? Arent orthos constantly working?

I'll make u a deal, u can make federal caps on my income when u pay my undergrad tuition and fees, my med school tuition and fees, pay my liability insurance, no malpractice risk for govt. Insured patients, and comprehensive govt benefits and pension.

Completely agree with this. The expectation that most doctors are not going to put salaries in high regard when they graduate with $200,000+ in debt is naive and absurd. Medical school tuition needs to be addressed.

 

[ScrubsMD]

We certainly need reform. We just don't need socialized medicine.

A single payer in my mind is the way to go, but I'm all open for ideas.

How do you propose to cover the pre-ACA estimated 40-50 million uninsured people?

 

[Roxas]

My original question was how representative SDN is of the physician population as a whole so we would need data about the political leanings of SDNers to compare to the poll you linked. The reason I linked another study (albeit looking at political donations instead of a general sample of political officiation) is because you can only tell so much from one poll. I haven't been able to find another poll other than the Rasmussen one that you linked. Polls can have incredibly variable results based on methodology. Just take a look at a compilation of current Obama approval ratings http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140602162652.htm where there is an 8 point difference among different polling companies (and that is pretty small variance compared to a couple months ago). Rasmussen keeps their polling methodology proprietary so it is difficult to assess the accuracy of the poll.

I agree, it was simply 1 study that I found. And you're right, I would also be interested to see more studies done on the topic. Anyway, you made the observation that responders to this thread seemed more conservative (just look at the title of the thread) so I was just trying to shed some more light on why. If anything, I've gotten the impression that SDN represents both sides, given that it's generally a younger population, and I could name several users who I know would disagree with my views wholeheartedly.

 

[Mad Jack]

A single payer in my mind is the way to go, but I'm all open for ideas.

How do you propose to cover the pre-ACA estimated 40-50 million uninsured people?

I think we should be using DPC coupled with wraparound plans, as described in this article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-chase/health-insurances-bunker_b_600587.html

Such arrangements consistently save 30%-80% on healthcare costs, depending on the age of the person enrolled. And the model is good enough that they specifically carved out an exception in the ACA to allow such DPC practices to exist.

I want insurance to be insurance again- something that you use in the event of a disaster, not something that you use for every test and checkup.

As to the 40-50 million uninsured, quite frankly I don't care, as I never really put much faith in health insurance to begin with. The newly insured under Obamacare are so poorly covered that they may as well have catastrophic plans anyways- a $5,000 deductible is damn close to being no coverage at all for all but the most serious of illnesses.

 

[Mad Jack]

I agree, it was simply 1 study that I found. And you're right, I would also be interested to see more studies done on the topic. Anyway, you made the observation that responders to this thread seemed more conservative (just look at the title of the thread) so I was just trying to shed some more light on why. If anything, I've gotten the impression that SDN represents both sides, given that it's generally a younger population, and I could name several users who I know would disagree with my views wholeheartedly.

Medscape's Lifestyle report is a pretty decent estimate of where physicians lie politically, as it's got enough respondents to reach the P <0.001 value.

Only about 23% of male physicians are fiscally liberal, and only about 33% of female physicians are fiscally liberal. More than 2/3rds of physicians are fiscally conservative overall, while about 58% of male and 69% of female physicians appear to be socially liberal. So physicians being mostly fiscally conservative and socially liberal would be a fairly accurate assessment.

 

[ScrubsMD]

As to the 40-50 million uninsured, quite frankly I don't care.

The newly insured under Obamacare are so poorly covered that they may as well have catastrophic plans anyways- a $5,000 deductible is damn close to being no coverage at all for all but the most serious of illnesses.

1. Really? You must have lied out of your a** during interviews.

2. I agree.

 

[Mad Jack]

1. Really? You must have lied out of your a** during interviews.

2. I agree.

Believe it or not I used to care, but med school has rapidly drained me of my humanity. I started out being all "oh, I'm going to help people and work in the inner city and blah blah blah" but I'm already at the point where I'm like, "I'm making as much money as I can with as little hassle as I can and retiring as fast as I can, because this system and this country are insane and I'm not going down with them. I worked too hard for this, and I lost too much for it."

 

[ERK123]

I agree, it was simply 1 study that I found. And you're right, I would also be interested to see more studies done on the topic. Anyway, you made the observation that responders to this thread seemed more conservative (just look at the title of the thread) so I was just trying to shed some more light on why. If anything, I've gotten the impression that SDN represents both sides, given that it's generally a younger population, and I could name several users who I know would disagree with my views wholeheartedly.

Good point, and I appreciate the study link. In my quick googling I read that not many studies have examined the political leanings of doctors. Some have looked at physician opinions on obamacare, but that is not quite the same thing as political ideology and party affiliation (if it were Obama would not have been re-elected in 2012).

I certainly have not been around medicine long enough to have much of a feel for the political leanings of most doctors. I do know the profession leans conservative on economic issues related to physician salary (but this is the case for every field even those that are considered left leaning). I have known quite a few liberal doctors and quite a few conservative doctors, but I am quite young. SDN certainly has people on both sides of the isle, but I have no idea if the make up is 5/95, 30/70, or 50/50. Reading some anecdotes and threads about various topics is not a very good way to evaluate this question, just as reading anecdotes on people's opinions about Obamacare does little to inform about the effect of the law. Any issue as impactful as Obamacare is going to have tens of thousands anecdotes on both sides. This shows the law has had a negative effect on some people and a positive effect on some people, but does not allow for much objective evaluation.

 

[ERK123]

as it's got enough respondents to reach the P <0.001 value.

Was this a random sample or just a free response poll? The results seem quite reasonable IMO, but if it is not a random sample it doesn't mean much. Just for fun! http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5168/

 

[Mad Jack]

Was this a random sample or just a free response poll? The results seem quite reasonable IMO, but if it is not a random sample it doesn't mean much. Just for fun! http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5168/

It isn't a random sample, but I doubt that the responses are all that skewed. It's not like physicians of certain political affiliations don't use the internet.

 

[ajh1983]

1. Really? You must have lied out of your a** during interviews.

2. I agree.

Your mistake is linking the idea of medical care to medical insurance.

Lol, Lied out our a**? No, I spoke from my heart to the best of my understanding during my interview. But - my understanding was very very limited at the time. Since being a medical student, I've started to really take an objective look at our system. I trust math and I trust basic economics. If you look at our system through those lenses, you'll see there is no saving it through more policy and centralization (fiscally speaking).

The ship is going down... no matter how many bandaids government sticks on it.

The whole reason I'm likely going DPC route is I want to give as many patients as possible respite from what's coming, while still enjoying the career I've worked so hard for. I'd call that noble enough.

Please stop being an obstinate jerk and blindly contradicting everyone's financially conservative viewpoint.

 

[charmiedermie]

When did I ever say there should be caps on your income? I'm for universal health care. Not screwing physicians and paying them dirt.

The variation in drug prices is a byproduct of different insurance plans reimbursing differently.
Single payer would force a flat rate.

And I don't need to make a deal. Ask any practicing doc. They will tell you we are heading towards socialized medicine. It's not an "if," but a "when."

I'm getting the feeling I went from being a minority opinion to trolling this anti Obama care thread so I'll leave you to it.

And what youre not seeing is that single payer healthcare screws physicians and reimburses dirt. And its students like u who think its the best system we can get is driving it there bc u dont know the facts.

Hence single payer. A lot of middlemen lose their jobs..

Am I the only one on sdn that believes in a single payer or hybrid system?

The expense of healthcare is more than just middlemen. The VA healthcare system is not cheap. It is more expensive.

No, but you are not going to find many allies in this thread. This is an incredibly conservative blog for the most part. I wish more med students took some policy classes during undergrad.

Which health policy class told u single payer was the answer?

In what way am I talking out of my ass? I did not say that the VA is a better health care system. I merely said that we have no means to rigorously compare many of the outcomes measured in the VA system to private hospitals because the same outcomes are not measured as comprehensively. I did not claim that if these measurements were made the VA would stand superior. I am just not a fan of anecdotal conclusions.

You mean the VA that falsified appointment data and hid evidence of delayed medical care?

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

They know the science and how their field works, that's it.

You're probably going to be surprised to find out how diverse your med school class will be. I'd say at least 30-%40% of my class had some sort of career before coming to medical school. We have a fair share of PhDs, lawyers, engineers, plumbers, mechanics, teachers, house wives, etc. They will know a hell of a lot more about the world than just how medicine works when they become attendings. Be careful with your assumptions.

Also, what exactly are you bringing to the table, here? Bounced around the world in different boarding schools as child, son of an Ambassador, 3 masters degrees in the the soft sciences, peace corps worker, former wall street banker? I expect to see some serious accolades, now.

 

[ERK123]

You mean the VA that falsified appointment data and hid evidence of delayed medical care?

Yes, we are talking about the same VA. This still does not contradict my point. I am not defending the VA. I am merely pointing out that it is difficult to compare the VA to private insurance. The data is not available.

 

[jw3600]

Isn't there a policy about pre meds posting in allopathic? Like, it's not a big deal as long as they are making positive contributions?

 

[charmiedermie]

Yes, we are talking about the same VA. This still does not contradict my point. I am not defending the VA. I am merely pointing out that it is difficult to compare the VA to private insurance. The data is not available.

What do u mean data is not available? They FAKED the data so any comparisons would have been flawed. Since you know so much about single payer, list the negatives, flaws, and unintended consequences of a single payer system, now.

 

[charmiedermie]

Isn't there a policy about pre meds posting in allopathic? Like, it's not a big deal as long as they are making positive contributions?

Wait, they're not in med school?

 

[Mad Jack]

You mean a bunch of people with 6 figure incomes, who don't have any problems affording health care...

They know the science and how their field works, that's it.

This also irked me, because I've worked a lot of jobs in my life, from minimum wage on up, and struggled for many years, particularly as I was going through school and had to work at the same time. I've been everything from a janitor to a fast food cook to a guy packing pallets with ex-convicts in a cold storage warehouse to a salesman to a respiratory therapist, with a few other jobs peppered in here and there. I'm highly curious what your valid experience amounts to?

 

[Mad Jack]

Wait, they're not in med school?

No, this kid has zero experience in the field. He's still got the rosy glasses on and hasn't yet been broken.

 

[Mad Jack]

Isn't there a policy about pre meds posting in allopathic? Like, it's not a big deal as long as they are making positive contributions?

He's making a valid contribution to the discussion. He believes in single payer. Soon he'll know though, and then when he comes back on in three years he'll be staring down noob premeds saying:

just like we are now.

 

[charmiedermie]

Believe it or not I used to care, but med school has rapidly drained me of my humanity. I started out being all "oh, I'm going to help people and work in the inner city and blah blah blah" but I'm already at the point where I'm like, "I'm making as much money as I can with as little hassle as I can and retiring as fast as I can, because this system and this country are insane and I'm not going down with them. I worked too hard for this, and I lost too much for it."

For a system that wants doctors to help the less fortunate the govt really seems to work extra to make that job harder. So many DPC physicians,not even concierge, are happy they reclaimed the reason they went to med school.

 

[charmiedermie]

No, this kid has zero experience in the field. He's still got the rosy glasses on and hasn't yet been broken.

Well that was a waste, no wonder he thinks single payer is the best system possible out of all the options and he seemed real giddy about forcing price controls. Problem is in real life, people take the ball and go home, and then u have no one.

 

[jw3600]

1. Really? You must have lied out of your a** during interviews.

This is argumentative, petulant, and a clear cut example of why pre-allo is mostly ****.

 

[Shikima]

For a system that wants doctors to help the less fortunate the govt really seems to work extra to make that job harder. So many DPC physicians,not even concierge, are happy they reclaimed the reason they went to med school.

QFT. The number of pre-auths for routine medications in my clinic has quintupled with the beginning of the year.

 

[Mad Jack]

Well that was a waste, no wonder he thinks single payer is the best system possible out of all the options and he seemed real giddy about forcing price controls. Problem is in real life, people take the ball and go home, and then u have no one.

The government has consistently forced the costs of healthcare onto consumers and cut back what they were paying doctors. That would only accelerate if there were more people enrolled, because to the government, health care accounts to nothing more than an expense, money that they could be better funneling to their friends elsewhere. Next thing you know, doctors will be making damn near nothing and patients will be paying half of that nothing out of pocket. Who wins? No one but government officials in that scenario.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Believe it or not I used to care, but med school has rapidly drained me of my humanity. I started out being all "oh, I'm going to help people and work in the inner city and blah blah blah" but I'm already at the point where I'm like, "I'm making as much money as I can with as little hassle as I can and retiring as fast as I can, because this system and this country are insane and I'm not going down with them. I worked too hard for this, and I lost too much for it."

The transition is real.

 

[ERK123]

What do u mean data is not available? They FAKED the data so any comparisons would have been flawed. Since you know so much about single payer, list the negatives, flaws, and unintended consequences of a single payer system, now.

They faked the data in one area at some VA's, and who knows how many other hospitals and insurance companies have faked data? Also, there were reports of patients on these waiting lists years before it became a big story on cable news http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/20/u...reduce-backlog-of-disability-claims.html?_r=0 . When I say the data is no available, I am talking about the enormous amount of outcomes data processed by the VA electronic medical records for decades. No other hospital system has this data available. It is not a question of the VA being better. It is how the system is managed and regulated that such flaws are revealed.

I have said absolutely nothing to claim I know a lot about single payer so I am not sure why you brought that up, but if you want some possible flaws of single payer:

1. Lower income for physicians attracting less competent people to join the field
2. Less innovation due to a non-marketbase system that does not necessarily reward on merit
3. Inability to gain access to best possible treatments even if you can afford them due to regulatory barriers
4. Longer wait times for visits/procedures

 

[charmiedermie]

The government has consistently forced the costs of healthcare onto consumers and cut back what they were paying doctors. That would only accelerate if there were more people enrolled, because to the government, health care accounts to nothing more than an expense, money that they could be better funneling to their friends elsewhere. Next thing you know, doctors will be making damn near nothing and patients will be paying half of that nothing out of pocket. Who wins? No one but government officials in that scenario.

I'm still waiting for him to list any negatives, drawbacks, unintended consequences of single payer healthcare, assuming they covered it in his undergraduate policy class.

 

[Mad Jack]

Another thing that irks me is that people say, "well if you go cash only, the poor can't afford to see you." The thing is, if you're accepting insurance, you're paying over 80k per year for billing, EMR, and coding. You literally can't afford to see the poor pro bono because you'd be hemorrhaging money. With DPC, you can charge sliding scales and not end up broke as ****, since DPC overheads tend to be damn near nothing. You could charge them $10 for a visit and still break even. The only problem then becomes liability- you can't give something away for free that might bite you in the ass later.

You want the poor to get care in this country without relying on some socialistic BS? Make charity care tax deductible, and make any charity care provided free of liability. Then physicians could provide the sort of free care they would like to without going broke or fearing their good deed being punished with a lawsuit down the line. Coupled with DPC's minimal overhead, I predict we'd see a great number of physicians being far more charitable in the future.

 

[charmiedermie]

They faked the data in one area at some VA's, and who knows how many other hospitals and insurance companies have faked data? Also, there were reports of patients on these waiting lists years before it became a big story on cable news http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/20/u...reduce-backlog-of-disability-claims.html?_r=0 . When I say the data is no available, I am talking about the enormous amount of outcomes data processed by the VA electronic medical records for decades. No other hospital system has this data available. It is not a question of the VA being better. It is how the system is managed and regulated that such flaws are revealed.

I have said absolutely nothing to claim I know a lot about single payer so I am not sure why you brought that up, but if you want some possible flaws of single payer:

1. Lower income for physicians attracting less competent people to join the field
2. Less innovation due to a non-marketbase system that does not necessarily reward on merit
3. Inability to gain access to best possible treatments even if you can afford them due to regulatory barriers
4. Longer wait times for visits/procedures

So your answer to the VA willfully manipulating data is who knows how many hospitals/private insurance companies faked data?

You forgot 5. Government bureaucrat rationing. So u don't know a lot about single payer, as u said, but u Support or dont support single payer?

 

[charmiedermie]

The government has consistently forced the costs of healthcare onto consumers and cut back what they were paying doctors. That would only accelerate if there were more people enrolled, because to the government, health care accounts to nothing more than an expense, money that they could be better funneling to their friends elsewhere. Next thing you know, doctors will be making damn near nothing and patients will be paying half of that nothing out of pocket. Who wins? No one but government officials in that scenario.

And govt administrators get bonuses and Beyonce tickets.

 

[ERK123]

I didn't know there was a rule against non-med students commenting in this thread

So your answer to the VA willfully manipulating data is who knows how many hospitals/private insurance companies faked data?

You forgot 5. Government bureaucrat rationing. So u don't know a lot about single payer, as u said, but u Support or dont support single payer?

Yes that is my answer. I fully admit it is not a great answer, but I think it should be considered.

I didn't include rationing because it exists in both single-payer and non-single payer systems. The difference really comes down to what people thinks is fair rationing (market based or system based), which is going to vary greatly based on ideology.

This country will never adopt a single payer system IMO and I would not be in favor of a law that does so unless it is way down the road and a proper transition has been in place. Even then I am not going to decide whether I am in favor of such until I have some actual experience as a physician. A public option is quite possible in the next 20 years and while I support such a system now, again I will not make a decision until I have some experience as a practicing physician. I have worked in a hospital for two years, but I am sure my perspective will change greatly when I am the one making decisions.

 

[acceptmeplease]

If republicans weren't so obstructionist and Obama had some bawls then we could have had single payer

Republican obstruction is a fallacy considering Obama had a democratic majority in the House and Senate.

 

[ScrubsMD]

No, this kid has zero experience in the field. He's still got the rosy glasses on and hasn't yet been broken.

1. You first tell me to not make any assumptions about others experiences in life and then go and say this...

I haven't divulged anything about myself, so I'm not sure where you're getting this? On the contrary, I have worked in health care for a while.

2. I'm pretty sure I haven't broken any sdn tos rules posting here either.

3. The VA is a single payer with a government provider of services. Most of their problems come from the provider side.

 

[Mad Jack]

1. You first tell me to not make any assumptions about others experiences in life and then go and say this...

I haven't divulged anything about myself, so I'm not sure where you're getting this? On the contrary, I have worked in health care for a while.

2. I'm pretty sure I haven't broken any sdn tos rules posting here either.

3. The VA is a single payer with a government provider of services. Most of their problems come from the provider side.

1: I said "in the field," as in, being a doctor or working alongside one as a medical student or resident. In that respect, I am correct.

2: Eh, posting here by premeds is fine as long as we're not talking about premed nonsense.

3: Tricare is also a mess, for the record, and it takes the government out of the provider role.

 

[acceptmeplease]

1. You first tell me to not make any assumptions about others experiences in life and then go and say this...

I haven't divulged anything about myself, so I'm not sure where you're getting this? On the contrary, I have worked in health care for a while.

2. I'm pretty sure I haven't broken any sdn tos rules posting here either.

3. The VA is a single payer with a government provider of services. Most of their problems come from the provider side.

Do you read the news? Nearly every VA scandal has been deemed to be caused by administrators and not providers.

Senior administrators influencing scheduling so that veterans can't be seen and then lying about wait times. That is not a provider issue. The only systemic provider issue that I could find is basically a lack thereof.

 

[Polonium-210]

Republican obstruction is a fallacy considering Obama had a democratic majority in the House and Senate.

Yeah I'm pretty sure it was the vociferous objections of the moderate Democrats that torpedoed the single payer model back in late 2009. Enough of them would have defected in the House to stop its passage.

http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes....up-a-pet-issue-to-streamline-house-vote/?_r=0

Congressman Weiner, err Carlos Danger, played a more important role in that than I realized. Obviously this was before the antics involving his weiner were made known.

 

[ScrubsMD]

1: I said "in the field," as in, being a doctor or working alongside one as a medical student or resident. In that respect, I am correct.

2: Eh, posting here by premeds is fine as long as we're not talking about premed nonsense.

3: Tricare is also a mess, for the record, and it takes the government out of the provider role.

1. This whole discussion is about the ACA. It affects everyone. What, as soon as I become a medical student or physician it will magically make sense that we are the world's richest county and we can't provide basic health care to our poorest citizens?

I am simply arguing a perfictly valid point. A point that the rest of the earth's 6.8 billion inhabitants seem to agree with since some form of single payer is in every country.

2. What nonsense? I have a different viewpoint that's shared by a lot of people. It just seems to be the minority on sdn.

3. Tricare is pretty much the largest jumble of nonsense that exists, so I can't argue there.

 

[acceptmeplease]

I'm still waiting for him to list any negatives, drawbacks, unintended consequences of single payer healthcare, assuming they covered it in his undergraduate policy class.

Americans fund much of the world's pharmaceutical research. You realize that the countries with single payer have highly regulated pharmaceutical prices and prescription practices, which on a surface sound good for the consumer, but really are bad for funding research and for providing aggressive treatment?

That's why a ton of pharmaceutical companies in America aren't really based in America.

You start getting Uncle Sam involved in creating a single-payer system, prices may go down, but at what cost?

 

[Mad Jack]

1. This whole discussion is about the ACA. It affects everyone. What, as soon as I become a medical student or physician it will magically make sense that we are the world's richest county and we can't provide basic health care to our poorest citizens?

I am simply arguing a perfictly valid point. A point that the rest of the earth's 6.8 billion inhabitants seem to agree with since some form of single payer is in every country.

2. What nonsense? I have a different viewpoint that's shared by a lot of people. It just seems to be the minority on sdn.

3. Tricare is pretty much the largest jumble of nonsense that exists, so I can't argue there.

Only most developed countries have single payer. This leaves the vast majority of the world population actually not living in a society that supports your point.. Here is a map of countries with single-payer systems:

So it clearly isn't the only way to do things, nor is it definitely the best way (for patients or physicians).

 

[Roxas]

.

1. This whole discussion is about the ACA. It affects everyone. What, as soon as I become a medical student or physician it will magically make sense that we are the world's richest county and we can't provide basic health care to our poorest citizens?

I am simply arguing a perfictly valid point. A point that the rest of the earth's 6.8 billion inhabitants seem to agree with since some form of single payer is in every country.

2. What nonsense? I have a different viewpoint that's shared by a lot of people. It just seems to be the minority on sdn.

3. Tricare is pretty much the largest jumble of nonsense that exists, so I can't argue there.

You want single payer? Go practice in Canada. Don't further pollute our healthcare system with government nonsense.

 

[moonwake]

You want single payer? Go practice in Canada. Don't further pollute our healthcare system with government nonsense.

Exactly... just like state laws why do we have to try and make every place the same. If you want a socialist society go live in Canada but can the U.S please continue the capitalism since there are few countries that can keep it going with all the free-loaders backing the dems. Capitalism is what has allowed the U.S. to be at the front of technology and innovation.