New VISA Changes for Australian Interns & Resident medical officers (Abolition of the 457 VISA)

[Domperidone]

Just making a new thread for pre-meds, current students & IMGs (non-Australian trained doctors) looking to work in Australia for the long term.

Australian immigration and border protection department official updates here.
For a break down of what this means for international students at Australian medical schools - Australian medical students association press release
And here: AMSA's 457 information sheet

1. Previously, to work as a resident or intern in Australia everyone had the 457 VISA (lasting 4-5 years) with option to apply for permanent residency upon completion of the internship year and getting full registration. One VISA --> PR status --> stay in Australia indefinitely, get vocational/registrar training.

2. This has recently been abolished by the Turnbull government.
The intention is to protect Australian jobs. A new VISA was created. Two new skills lists were made, one is the short term list - if your occupation is on this list, it grants two years to work, but no pathway to PR. And a medium/long term list, if your occupation is on this list, you get 4 years and pathway to PR. Currently, resident medical officers are on the short term list. the lists will be reviewed every 6 months and occupations may be removed entirely.

3. Translation: for current international students, you can apply for the 485 VISA. This is available to all graduates of Australian universities regardless of degrees. it allows you to work for 2 years. Has no pathway to migration, you have to apply for a second VISA there after. As residents and interns are on the short term list, this means a second VISA would grant only an additional two years and no pathway to permanent residency. It adds up to 4 years total of work in Australia, which in Australia is usually not sufficient to complete post-graduate or vocational training (equivalent of residency in the USA & Canada).

***Things are still evolving.
The changes have been sudden and vague.
Historically, exceptions and adjustments were made during changes like this to protect offer a level of protection to locally trained medical graduates (i.e. international or domestic students with Australian degrees). We were debating the future of this in another thread.

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[pitman]

If grads change to the 485 visa, then that'd be a lot like things used to be, where you'd go onto something like the 489, then apply for a PR visa (e.g., the 189) after a year or two based on the Skilled Occupations List. It'll come down to whether RMOs are kept on the SOL (TBD).

 

[Domperidone]

PR VISA? The 189 is what 457 VISA holders apply for after a year or two (upon getting full registration as their "skills assessment").

Versus the new system: the 485 is applied for then to get 2 years of work experience, before the TTS can be applied for (new variant of the 457) which grants either either 2 years (if on the STSOL) or 4 years (if on the MTLSSL). Or rather - 3 years before applying for PR, rather than 1-2. that's if RMOs are moved to the medium or long term SOL

How long ago is "like things used to be"?

 

[pitman]

Right. You seem to be focussing on changes to the 457 visa (and inapplicable 186 and 187 [employer sponsored] PR visas) itself(?) So far the relevant changes seem to be affecting those visas specifically targeting the pool of employer-sponsored, non-Australian-grad workers that the govt wants to tighten down on.

Is there any reason to believe that the 189 (Skilled Independent) PR visa would not be available from another temp work visa? It's the route I took from a 489 (state-sponsored temp visa) after internship, and from recollection what others have done from the 485 (post-study visa). Similarly, grads often get one of the bridging visas before even getting their work visa -- different routes leading up to a PR visa.

If for whatever reason one cannot apply for PR by the 189 route from some other (non-457) temporary work visa option such as the 489, or the 485 (which allows for 2 or 3 years of work [Bachelor's or Masters degree, respectively] without sponsorship or SOL requirement), that would be a target for lobbying.

Point about 'used to be', as I've mentioned before, is that the past, through precedence, can point to a future route/solution.

Again, if RMOs are kept on the SOL, it's not clear that any proposed changes so far would prevent int'l student grads from staying or attaining PR. The changes would make it harder for IMGs who currently come under the 457, consistent w/ current lobbying (and where real state-recognized regional shortages exist, they could still apply for the 489, which makes sense).

I'm in the process of trying to contact Michael Bonning, who's now head of AMA NSW, to see what he'll do wrt all this -- he graduated from UQ, where he was an underling before himself becoming Pres, and then as chair of AMSA ran with one of my pet projects, pretty much singlehandedly getting the Moratorium radically changed for the better. He's connected and good at what he does, and I'm sure he'll be involved with the SOL review. But currently he's in the UK, so no feedback from him yet.

 

[pitman]

Ok, fortunately (or not) my night shift was uneventful, so I scoured the .gov website. I'm now convinced that no one understands the changes being proposed, and I understand how Domperidone and I came to very different conclusions. This is what I just sent to AMSA and AMA Council:

--------------------------------------------
Subject: 457 visa SNAFU
Received: Friday, 21 April, 2017, 11:57 AM

Hello again [all],

I was forwarded and read the AMSA info sheet re: the proposed 457 changes:
https://amsa.org.au/sites/amsa.org.au/files/AMSA ISN 457 VISA Information Sheet.pdf

1) The doc doesn't have a date on it, which is critical for such a timely and evolving matter. The next update needs to be date-stamped.

2) I believe AMSA has erred in its description of the 485. In terms of eligibility requirements, your following statement seems to be incorrect:

"International students who have recently graduated with skills and qualifications that relate to an occupation in demand in the Australian labour market, as defined by the MLTSSL"

That requirement I believe still only applies to the "Graduate Work Stream", as per:
List of eligible skilled occupations
(It would appear that for the "Post-Study" stream, there continues to be no requirement the job is on the Skilled Occupations List [SOL]).

3) As you would probably have heard by now, RMOs have been put onto the Short Term SOL (STSOL):
ANZSCO 253112: Resident Medical Officer - Australia Skilled visa - Work in Australia
This can also be confirmed by comparing the two lists made available on the .gov site:
List of eligible skilled occupations
(RMOs are not on the longterm list [MLTSSL] but are on the combined list)

The implications of #3 are dire:
- it means that the 457 cannot be used by grads as a route to Permanent Residency, since the STSOL status prevents this.
- it means that the 189 PR visa cannot be applied for, since it will only be allowed for skills on the MLTSSL. This had been the only practical Permanent Residency (PR) visa option for int'l student grads because it was the only one that didn't have a region/employer requirement.

The following appear to be the only work visa options for grads unless something changes (from the previous link above):

Temporary Residency Visas:
485 ('Post-Study' sub-stream): no sponsorship or SOL requirement; 2-3 years depending on the med degree
489: 4year state-sponsored for jobs on the SOL, but would only be eligible once an RMO (since internship not on the SOL)
457: 2yrs work experience pre-requisite, 2yr limit, No path to PR, Labour Market Testing (which I'd think would fail for RMOs anyway)
??407: Training Visa towards registration (1yr, assuming internship counts as training towards (full) registration)

Permanent Residency Visas:
186: Employer sponsored PR visa
190: State sponsored PR visa (with a points test)
187: Employer sponsored PR visa for a particular REGION

So...grads would start internship on the 485. They could later switch over to the 489 (if their state were to again sponsor them like last decade), or the 457 after 2yrs(!), but either would simply delay application for PR and thus acceptance to a specialty college by that many years.

But then the PR visa options all require either an employer or a state sponsorship. Obviously this is an issue for a training system that requires a lot of moving around:

a) It is unclear in this environment of health districts whether "employer" is a supervisor in a
particular hospital, a district, or a state (e.g., Qld Health). Certainly if a hospital, training would be
impossible.

b) Even GP colleges require trainees to switch employers: when switching from hospital terms to GP training terms; during a procedural year which is usu out of district and sometimes out of state; and during GP clinic training when the trainee is employed directly by the GP practice.

c) It is unclear whether/which states would help minimize the "employer" problem by sponsoring int'l student grads themselves (190 visa).

d) Region/employer restrictions put undue, unique restrictions on int'l students, preventing them from exploring or changing to different training programs that may be available in different regions of Australia.

This is so far an unmitigated disaster.
As it stands, the only way for int'l grads to get the 189 to have the freedom to move around during training would be if RMOs were switched to the MLTSSL. However, the MLTSSL requires 3years of work before PR, so in the best case, grads go onto the 485, potentially switching after two years to the 457, and not apply for PR until PGY3-4. I.e., they would be unable to start college training until PGY4-5.

The one hope IMO lies in how an apparent contradiction is resolved on the .gov.au website: if it is where on the SOL a job lies that determines how many years must be worked before applying for PR (i.e., it's impossible for STSOL, after 3 years for MLTSSL), then it makes no sense to list the above PR visas as eligible for jobs on the STSOL. Similarly, if the duration of the visas is dictated by STSOL/MLTSSL status, then all of the visa descriptions giving their own duration are incorrect. If instead the restrictions apply only to the 457, then what is the point of categorizing visa types by STSOL/MLTSSL? IMO the bureaucrats at Immigration who wrote up the requirements, and probably also the politicians who have approved them, do not understand their new system. This gives a window of opportunity, if acted on quickly (before the apparent contradictions are officially clarified).

Sincerely,

 

[Domperidone]

lol, yea I was going to say. i have no idea what the hell is going on.
apparently neither do any migration agents or lawyers right now, which may or may not be comforting, in knowing that we're all lost.

I see what you mean by the 489, the skilled regional Visa, but currently CMI holders that are part of the private metro hospital programs (rotating between both regional and metro sites) are on 457s. i can't see how they would be eligible in future. I suppose it could be stretched. there's at least 60 interns each year in this category, which constitutes the majority of CMI positions. Not to mention, some of the VIC and ACT interns that were formerly international students are in metro hospitals that were unable to recruit domestics. Additionally, I was under the impression that state sponsored VISAs are limited in number. Much like the 190.

it's one hot mess all round.
the IT engineers are up in arms, the universities over post-grad research, business executives for corporations. we now have a #457 twitter lampooning Turnbull. Other journalists are reporting that it's actually a political stunt in the Trump era. (worst political stunt ever if it is one)

I still can't help feeling RMOs (or Future RMOs rather) are in a grey area.
my gut feeling (based on history too) is that some compromise will be reached in light of the bottle necks in training, oversaturation in metro areas and shortage in rural ones. I just can't picture exactly what they'll decide. Nothing from CDT or AMA yet (apart from cautious support but with regards to IMGs/non-Australian trained) - not that it's bad. there's no easy solution to all this.

One thing I'm mildly thankfully for (in an ironic way) is that many students still oblivious to what's heading their way (potentially if things do not change). Some are still of the mindset that as long as I have a chance at getting an internship it will all be okay. *face palm.

 

[pitman]

I see what you mean by the 489, the skilled regional Visa, but currently CMI holders that are part of the private metro hospital programs (rotating between both regional and metro sites) are on 457s. i can't see how they would be eligible in future. I suppose it could be stretched.

I read in a few places on the .gov site that current holders of 457s are exempt from the changes (to the 457), unless/until they renew it. However, because the changes aren't just to the 457 (it seems even the bureaucrats are confusing '457' with 'work visas' generally) it's not explicit in saying that they are also exempt from the restriction from applying for the 189.

Additionally, I was under the impression that state sponsored VISAs are limited in number. Much like the 190.

I think when I did it, the quota was by field, but at that time they said "don't worry about it". If any quota is insufficiently high, then this would leave another place for lobbying in an effort to mitigate fallout.

my gut feeling (based on history too) is that some compromise will be reached in light of the bottle necks in training, oversaturation in metro areas and shortage in rural ones. I just can't picture exactly what they'll decide. Nothing from CDT or AMA yet (apart from cautious support but with regards to IMGs/non-Australian trained) - not that it's bad. there's no easy solution to all this.

The new rural funding is a good start, but such a program would need years to ramp up, and obviously much more money than currently proposed. I just posted to the AMA site -- they too responded too quickly, before it was shown that RMOs would be put on the STSOL.

One thing I'm mildly thankfully for (in an ironic way) is that many students still oblivious to what's heading their way (potentially if things do not change). Some are still of the mindset that as long as I have a chance at getting an internship it will all be okay. *face palm.

Ha. Yeah, one of the pluses with all the scaremongering of years past -- it certainly motivates int'l students to study harder.

I will admit now, this is the first real, tangible change that I'm worried about wrt int'l students' chances after graduating.

 

[Domperidone]

I read in a few places on the .gov site that current holders of 457s are exempt from the changes (to the 457), unless/until they renew it. However, because the changes aren't just to the 457 (it seems even the bureaucrats are confusing '457' with 'work visas' generally) it's not explicit in saying that they are also exempt from the restriction from applying for the 189.

I wasn't referring to current 457 holders. everyone on that is frantic about applying for the 189 right now. (190 is very limited in spaces and currently only NSW is offering to sponsor)

I meant the future of CMI holders who work in metro private hospitals (60 out of roughly 80 in the program each year) - they are not going to be eligible for 489. They will have to sign up for the 485 then applying for the TTS (the new "457" variant, remember 457 no longer will exist past March 2018) at least under current conditions without PR pathway because RMOs are on the STSOL.

Current 457 holders (soon to be defunct 457 that is) are in a weird space. RMOs are not on the old SOL specifically. But are able to apply as medical practitioners nec. Now that RMOs are specifically on the STSOL (the new skills occupations list), no one know how this will affect applications. It's very confusing for migration agents. One theory is that there will be a grace period until March 2018.

I think when I did it, the quota was by field, but at that time they said "don't worry about it". If any quota is insufficiently high, then this would leave another place for lobbying in an effort to mitigate fallout.

I can't comment on quotas for 489. I know for 190 the quota is very limited each year. Some are fortunate others aren't.

The new rural funding is a good start, but such a program would need years to ramp up, and obviously much more money than currently proposed. I just posted to the AMA site -- they too responded too quickly, before it was shown that RMOs would be put on the STSOL.

They aren't the only ones that responded too quickly. AMSA did too (their document on April 18th - said that doctors weren't affected on the SOL, then a day later the STSOL list came out). My impression is that they were compelled to with the barrage of queries they were getting.

I think that's why both groups have disclaimers in their press releases. we're still trying to find out more, we're being cautious etc.

I don't envy the space AMA or AMA CDT is currently in, with the level of complexity they have to navigate through to find balanced policy.

I knew things were going to come to a head eventually. there were talk of it. i.e. maldistribution of doctors, tsunami of medical students, training bottle necks, IMGs that don't frankly stay rural over long term, further exacerbating the maldistribution. Some of us saw it coming, in that we as a generation of doctors, were going to have to reckon with this some day. that day has finally come.

Ha. Yeah, one of the pluses with all the scaremongering of years past -- it certainly motivates int'l students to study harder.

I will admit now, this is the first real, tangible change that I'm worried about wrt int'l students' chances after graduating.

I'd wager most first and second year international students don't even know what a registrar is. I had classmates who didn't know what the difference was between a gen med physician or gp in first or second year. hehe. still makes me giggle to this day.

For most, reg training is so far away. the prospect of working 4-5 years only as postgrads probably doesn't sound like the worst deal to many internationals at this stage. Many have no idea that 4-5 years isn't a sufficient amount of time to complete training the specialties/subspecialties. Also few will have decided that they will stay in Australia indefinitely so early in their careers. With the exception of some 3rd years and 4th years (who've had to cross that bridge already).

the thing that used to create the most fear (probably still does) is the idea of not getting an internship. Simply because that's the most immediate concern as it's PGY1.

scare mongering - my understanding was that when it came up in later years, it came more from a place of misunderstanding. there was only so much you can say to select student leaders who are panicking themselves (which is never ideal, having a leader who panics, but such is life). there were and are level headed people in leadership, but you can't compel everyone to feel the same way or to not speak their minds. only inform.

I don't think there'll be much misguided scare mongering over the VISAs by students. many are too far from vocational training to fully grasp what's about to happen to them. Right now anyway. Few are quick to catch on. At least AMSA in their latest press release caught up to what the rest of us are now thinking as postgrads.

 

[pitman]

scare mongering - my understanding was that when it came up in later years, it came more from a place of misunderstanding. there was only so much you can say to select student leaders who are panicking themselves (which is never ideal, having a leader who panics, but such is life). there were and are level headed people in leadership, but you can't compel everyone to feel the same way or to not speak their minds. only inform.

Much of it was indeed out of ignorance. Some of it (later on) was calculated for political reasons. And some of it was just from people who were borderline psychotic (from the occasional nut who got into one of the med schools).

The one plus of it was that it motivated the rest of us (for me, to get involved with the politics).

Yeah, I thought it looked odd to see RMO on the SOL at all -- I was sure I designated as 'medical practitioner' (now on the MLTSOL) and that was one of several things that threw me off last week. Int'l students couldn't really be blamed for continuing to select that, and it wouldn't surprise me -- going off of the ways the system has been played when the rules were, let's say, ambiguous -- if that were enough to get on a path to the 189 (albeit slowly). But that'd work only if a few tried it [Shhhh]. What do you suppose the '(nec)' means, necessary? For what?

 

[marble30]

Yeah, I thought it looked odd to see RMO on the SOL at all -- I was sure I designated as 'medical practitioner' (now on the MLTSOL) and that was one of several things that threw me off last week. Int'l students couldn't really be blamed for continuing to select that, and it wouldn't surprise me -- going off of the ways the system has been played when the rules were, let's say, ambiguous -- if that were enough to get on a path to the 189 (albeit slowly). But that'd work only if a few tried it [Shhhh]. What do you suppose the '(nec)' means, necessary? For what?

RMOs have always been on the CSOL and not the SOL. Everyone I know applied for PR via medical practitioners nec (non existing category?) as that was the only non-fellowship category that worked for those not on a training program. However, last Aug 2016, the news came out that "medical practitioners nec" was one of the categories proposed for removal this July along with GP, cardiologists, etc. So even this option might be closed off to us depending on how things go this year when the new lists come out.

 

[Domperidone]

Just following up -

Media ramp up in Australian Doctor

Again, for any international students attending Australian medical schools with the intention of practicing in Australia for more than 2 years, I would highly suggest getting in touch with AMSA ISN, as they are the national representative body for you guys. (To note - for IMGs - so non-Australian degree students, I would suggest contacting AMA instead).

Junior doctors fear deportation under visa overhaul
Geir O'Rourke | 20 April, 2017 | 6 comments


Panic is spreading among migrant junior doctors and students, who fear they will be put in a race against time to avoid deportation under the new visa system.

The scrapping of the 457 visa program means junior doctors wanting to work in Australia will be restricted to two-year visas with no pathway to permanent residency.

They fear the new Temporary Skills Shortage (TSS) visa will leave them in limbo if they don’t find work in one of the 32 approved specialist registrar-training programs within two years - even if they trained in Australia.

“If I fail at any stage of this process, I will receive no reprieve,” says Andreas Hendarto, a Singaporean student at the University of Melbourne.

“This new visa scheme means that after many more years of working hard, I might still be forced to take my hard-earned experience and knowledge in Australian healthcare elsewhere — simply because I was here at the wrong time.”

Related News: Concerns axing of 457 visas will hit IMG recruitment

There are roughly 1600 junior doctors and 2000 GPs presently working in the country on 457 visas.

The government is stressing that all will allowed to continue on their 457 visas until they expire.

But in the future IMGs applying to work as specialists - such as GPs, psychiatrists or cardiologists - will apply for medium-term visas lasting up to four years.

Unlike the two year visas for junior doctors, these visas will include a pathway to permanent residency after three years.

Wojtek Arnal (pictured, below), a fourth-year medical student at James Cook University, described an atmosphere of gloom at his Queensland teaching hospital as doctors and registrars try to figure out how the new system will change their lives when it comes into force in March 2018.

“You can feel the mood got very sad as Malcolm Turnbull made his speech.

“Half the hospital workforce seems to be from abroad and they want to be Australian and give back, but they now feel isolated and targeted.”

The 27-year-old has started a family in Australia and dreams of becoming a rural GP.

“No one really knows exactly what these visa changes mean for themselves and their future, as well as being able to contribute to the Australian healthcare system,” Mr Arnal says.

However Dr Viney Joshi, president of the Australian Doctors Trained Overseas Association, says he supports the new system.

“It is very reasonable,” he says. “We are training so many new Australian graduates, why should we keep getting graduates from overseas?”

Number of IMGs on 457 visas*



GP – 2005
Junior doctors – 1619
Medical Practitioners – 306
Psychiatrist – 81
Diagnostic & Interventional Radiologist – 43
Emergency Medicine Specialist – 43
Anaesthetist – 37
Obstetrician & Gynaecologist – 23
Paediatrician – 19
Specialist Physicians – 18
Surgeon (General) – 18
Specialist Physician (General Medicine) – 17
Orthopaedic Surgeon – 16
Plastic & Reconstructive Surgeon – 7
Cardiologist – 7
Intensive Care Specialist – 7
Pathologist – 5
Medical Oncologist – 5
Radiation Oncologist – 4
Urologist – 3
Otorhinolaryngologist - 2
Neurologist – 2
Neurosurgeon – 2
Dermatologist – 2
Gastroenterologist – 2
Vascular Surgeon – 2
Clinical Haematologist – 1
Paediatric Surgeon – 1
Endocrinologist – 1
Renal Medicine Specialist – 0
Cardiothoracic Surgeon– 0
Rheumatologist – 0
Thoracic Medicine Specialist – 0

 

[imgyg]

I haven't read the full thread. But I don't see why foreigners/IMGs cant get PR through 189 visa after one year of work (as I did) (I am an IMG). The only change is to the temp visa, but docs should still be able to get PR through skilled independent migration 189 visa after a year.

 

[pitman]

I haven't read the full thread. But I don't see why foreigners/IMGs cant get PR through 189 visa after one year of work (as I did) (I am an IMG). The only change is to the temp visa, but docs should still be able to get PR through skilled independent migration 189 visa after a year.

Ha. Maybe read the thread then? This is not how the changes read or what the preliminary advice lawyers have been giving AMSA. The changes go far beyond the headline of just affecting the 457 (the whole point is to make it more difficult to work here as a foreigner, and to remain here indefinitely via the 189 (PR)).

To summarize the problem:

First, note that we're not talking about fellowed IMGs (whose specialty may separately already be on the MLTSSL).

To get to the 189 (PR), you'd still have to nominate a job, and from a temp work visa. If that job is on the short-term list (STSOL), then there is no path to PR (as per the *list*, not the visa), i.e, no means to apply for the 189 from the 'RMO' designation. If the job is on the medium-to-long-term list (MLTSSL), then there'd be a (new) 3-year wait while a temp worker before you can apply for the 189, again, as per the list. It is TBD whether 'medical practitioner' will remain on the latter when it is reviewed in July -- scrutiny of that designation is not a good thing when it's been used as a loophole by med grads (it wasn't ever meant for medical trainees).

Before getting to the 189, you'd have to start on one of the temp work visas, but the 457 would no longer be an option right out of med because of the (new) two-year work experience requirement. IMGs with that experience could use it, or if not could try for the 489, if they can find sponsorship, or maybe the 407 while working towards full registration (i.e., to complete internship), but that visa is only for one year -- not even enough time to be able switch to the 457, let alone the 3 years to be able to apply for the 189.

One of the question marks is whether int'l students could jump from the two-year 485 (post-grad work visa) to the 457 (for an additional one year) to the 189, counting those first two years on the 485 towards the MLTSSL 3-year requirement despite not having nominated from the SOL to get the 485(!). (Note that the 485 will not be possible for anyone who held an Australian student visa before 2011, **** if I know why).

If there is such a loophole for the 485, then there is some hope that it wouldn't be closed if lobbied for, given that it would only exempt grads from Australian schools. The option is only helpful, however, if 'medical practitioner' remains on the MLTSSL and as an option for trainees. Even then, it means no PR until PGY4+.

How the delay for PR affects training is another issue.

 

[marble30]

I haven't read the full thread. But I don't see why foreigners/IMGs cant get PR through 189 visa after one year of work (as I did) (I am an IMG). The only change is to the temp visa, but docs should still be able to get PR through skilled independent migration 189 visa after a year.

Look for the section titled "Changes from March 2018". This is what pitman was referring to.

 

[imgyg]

thanks for explanations. It may be some time before we get full clarity

 

[pitman]

An update on the issue:

AMSA has gotten confirmation from the Dept of Immigration that the proposed visa changes mean that the most viable visa route for int'l medical students will be to start on the 485 for two years, then switch to the new '457' (which will have the two-year work experience prerequisite), and then having to wait another three years before being allowed to apply for Permanent Residency (PR). Students are NOT expected to be able to use the years spent under the 485 towards the three required under the 457. In other words, it will take int'l student grads 5+ years before getting PR.

This means that int'l student grads will not be able to apply to certain training colleges, notably the RACGP and ACRRM GP colleges under the AGTP (the funder for most GP training spots), and the RACS, for at least 5 postgrad years.

AMSA has also gotten confirmation from the AGTP that *at this point* they will not relax their PR requirement.

There are two possible routes to help int'l students now:
1) put pressure onto cross-benchers (Xenophon and Hanson, I would think) to negotiate an exemption for int'l students (which for consistency would prob need to apply to all int'l students in Australia); and/or

2) get the AGTP, RACS, and the handful of other colleges with a PR prerequisite to relax that requirement, even if just for anyone who had graduated from an Australian med school.

After a bit of a scare, AMSA has just last weekend confirmed its unqualified support for international students and their need to get into training colleges earlier, in what was a humiliating defeat for an initial handful of plotters. The unanimous vote in the end was spearheaded by Zhee, the International Students Network chair. The ISN is now gearing up to lobby the AMA and the colleges, with others focusing on the med schools themselves.

The number one thing anyone concerned can do is to get involved, to help ensure that there is a unified voice ready to instigate a backlash in what is estimated to be a billion-dollar industry funding the states.

To do that, I highly recommend int'ls to complete the following short survey and get every international student you know to do the same:
AMSA ISN internship tracking system

ISN is aware that the question for 'student ID' may be confronting, so note that you can just put there any random number. The key is that your email address will soon be used for an opt-out campaign to keep you informed and organized on this issue over the next year or more.

Hope this helps. Let the battle begin.

 

[Domperidone]

Thanks for the update!

Also dayumm..

After a bit of a scare, AMSA has just last weekend confirmed its unqualified support for international students and their need to get into training colleges earlier, in what was a humiliating defeat for an initial handful of plotters.

Political intrigue!

on the other hand..well..

 

[retiltxet]

An update on the issue:

AMSA has gotten confirmation from the Dept of Immigration that the proposed visa changes mean that the most viable visa route for int'l medical students will be to start on the 485 for two years, then switch to the new '457' (which will have the two-year work experience prerequisite), and then having to wait another three years before being allowed to apply for Permanent Residency (PR). Students are NOT expected to be able to use the years spent under the 485 towards the three required under the 457. In other words, it will take int'l student grads 5+ years before getting PR.

This means that int'l student grads will not be able to apply to certain training colleges, notably the RACGP and ACRRM GP colleges under the AGTP (the funder for most GP training spots), and the RACS, for at least 5 postgrad years.

AMSA has also gotten confirmation from the AGTP that *at this point* they will not relax their PR requirement.

There are two possible routes to help int'l students now:
1) put pressure onto cross-benchers (Xenophon and Hanson, I would think) to negotiate an exemption for int'l students (which for consistency would prob need to apply to all int'l students in Australia); and/or

2) get the AGTP, RACS, and the handful of other colleges with a PR prerequisite to relax that requirement, even if just for anyone who had graduated from an Australian med school.

After a bit of a scare, AMSA has just last weekend confirmed its unqualified support for international students and their need to get into training colleges earlier, in what was a humiliating defeat for an initial handful of plotters. The unanimous vote in the end was spearheaded by Zhee, the International Students Network chair. The ISN is now gearing up to lobby the AMA and the colleges, with others focusing on the med schools themselves.

The number one thing anyone concerned can do is to get involved, to help ensure that there is a unified voice ready to instigate a backlash in what is estimated to be a billion-dollar industry funding the states.

To do that, I highly recommend int'ls to complete the following short survey and get every international student you know to do the same:
AMSA ISN internship tracking system

ISN is aware that the question for 'student ID' may be confronting, so note that you can just put there any random number. The key is that your email address will soon be used for an opt-out campaign to keep you informed and organized on this issue over the next year or more.

Hope this helps. Let the battle begin.

FYI
AGPT accepts 457 visas currently if you're australian trained. You just need PR by the time you FINISH. That was changed a few years ago.

457 Visa Holder Eligibility Requirements - Australian General Practice Training

 

[pitman]

FYI
AGPT accepts 457 visas currently if you're australian trained. You just need PR by the time you FINISH. That was changed a few years ago.

457 Visa Holder Eligibility Requirements - Australian General Practice Training

That is odd, but I suspect is a grandfathering -- According to AMSA, they changed their policy a couple of months ago back to disallowing all non-PR applicants (before that, they've changed on this at least twice before over the past 10 years). This was more recently confirmed by a meeting they had with AGTP where AGTP argued that they could not justify giving just int'l students an exemption (could be they got into trouble with the exemption). I believe what they have posted is simply a grandfathering for those applying for next year, since any policy change this year could not apply until then. I'll seek clarification.

 

[pitman]

AGTP did in fact change their rules a few months ago. Note the 2018 requirements as directly linked off their homepage:
Home - Australian General Practice Training

Page 39:

Eligibility

The Department of Health uses the program eligibility requirements to determine the eligibility of an applicant.

Applicants can self-assess their eligibility to join the AGPT Program by checking the 2018 AGPT Eligibility Guide on page 8.

Citizenship/residency

An AMG born overseas must have permanent residency or citizenship of Australia or New Zealand.

This would also be consistent with what they told AMSA.

 

[retiltxet]

AGTP did in fact change their rules a few months ago. Note the 2018 requirements as directly linked off their homepage:
Home - Australian General Practice Training

Page 39:


This would also be consistent with what they told AMSA.

You're reading the wrong section. The one you've quoted is "This section applies to applicants who were not born in Australia or New Zealand, but obtained their primary medical qualification in Australia or New Zealand and at date of enrolment were Australian or New Zealand citizens or permanent residents (referred to as AMGs born overseas)."


I have a 457 and was found eligible this year. Go to page 47. You just need a "letter of support" which all you do is email the RTO on the list and they send you one.

"Temporary Business (Long Stay) visa (subclass 457) holders If an applicant currently holds a temporary 457 visa and gained their primary medical degree in Australia or New Zealand, then the Department of Health will accept the application on the understanding that the applicant will only be considered by a training region if: • The applicant gains permanent residency or citizenship of Australia or New Zealand before 8 May 2017 Or • The applicant submits letters of support from each of the RTOs within their preferred training regions formally declaring, in writing, that the terms of their visa will not prevent their participation in the AGPT Program and confirming the RTO is able to support their training within the restrictions of their visa; and they submit a statutory declaration before 8 May 2017, stating that they will apply for permanent residency in Australia or New Zealand by the completion of the AGPT Program Or • The applicant submits letters of support from each of the RTOs within their preferred training regions formally declaring, in writing, that the terms of their visa will not prevent their participation in the AGPT Program and confirming the RTO is able to support their training within the restrictions of their visa; and they provide proof of an active permanent residency application before 8 May 2017. Applicants that are not able to provide evidence of Australian or New Zealand citizenship, or are unable to provide letters of support from RTOs by Monday 8 May 2017 will not have met eligibility requirements for the 2018 AGPT Program, and will be found ineligible and will not proceed to the selection assessment process."

 

[pitman]

Argh, my mistake there. So for this year at least, you could apply to one of the three RTOs on the list -- NT, SE Qld, or NW Qld -- with a 457. Crap limitation there, but I'll have to go back again and see whether AMSA has misunderstood, AGTP doesn't know their own rules, or AGTP is now saying that for future years this won't be an option.

457 Visa Holder Eligibility Requirements - Australian General Practice Training

 

[retiltxet]

Visa related hypothetical question. If you had the opportunity to get PR now as an intern -- albeit with a requirement of working for the same employer for 2 more years, or until January and go the skilled independent or state sponsored route (but be free to work wherever) what would you do?

Is the bird in the hand worth two in the bush? Is the skilled independent/state sponsored a sure thing? Does being at the same hospital for 2 (potentially 3 years) impact a young HMO's career?

 

[Domperidone]

That's not exactly an easy hypothetical question to answer.
You're assuming there's one layer of complexity to the question, when it's multifactorial.

Rather than using hypotheticals, perhaps be more specific. it's very confusing to try to answer, and i'm very likely to miss the mark and then we'll go back and forth for ages.

You can start a private conversation on this, with either myself, pitman or someone else you feel you can share a bit more details with. if you're not comfortable using the public forum. You could also start a conversation with multiple people, without having the whole world knowing the specifics.

Short answer to the last question - being at the same hospital for the first few years of your training can potentially impact a resident medical officer's career. that's pretty obvious. How much so, depends on many things. I mean, what career are we even talking about? Did you have a specific specialty in mind? What is it that you want to do? Or do you not care where you end up? Where are you even working? What training does the hospital offer and what training is it that you actually want? These become very personal questions.

Also, where are you in your training?
Based on your previous postings on this forum, (which I haven't read in depth) - I'm guessing final year or intern year?

Nothing's really a 'sure thing'.
The only thing that is a 'sure' thing is change.

 

[retiltxet]

I don't mind sharing. It's only hypothetical because I haven't made up my mind. I'm at a regional NSW hospital and have the option of doing PR now, during intern year, but the 187 visa condition would require 2 further years from the date of PR approval.

 

[Domperidone]

sorry, just spotted this.

If you're an intern at a NSW regional hospital - again it depends.

Do you wish to stay working at rural or regional hospitals over the long term? If so, yes, it would be prudent to apply for whatever PR application you qualify for early. Because PR requirements and work visa requirements are rapidly changing and evolving. And not in a direction that is favorable for internationals under the current Turnbull government.

Generally all PR applications require that you have completed intern year - have general registration is your skills assessment. Double check that you actually meet requirements if you only have provisional registration.

If you do not want to stay at the hospital.
For whatever the reason. then don't commit to two years.
Every year out of medical school it becomes more competitive and harder for you to match at a tertiary hospital for 'competitive' programs like surgery or the subspecialties. It is a risk if you don't get PR now yes, but if you stay longer where you are, the risk of not getting some fancy program you want later also goes up. That's if you have other ambitions that are not related to rural or regional medicine.

It goes without saying, we're in a maldistribution situation. there's an oversupply of metropolitan based doctors. Partly, because a large number is not interested in rural or regionally training. they want surgery or subspecialties, and often these are based at large, city tertiary hospitals. there's large bottle necks now for registrar and advanced training positions. and you also need connections to get into the programs.

 

[retiltxet]

***

 

[Domperidone]

okidokes! I guess that answers your own question

 

[hesble]

My apologies. I still don't understand the visa change. Maybe it's time to improve my English reading skills. LOL

Previously, if graduates wanted to stay in Australia, they were eligible to apply for visa which led to PR after internship year. But now the path is closed and med graduates may only get a visa that doesn't lead to PR. And after two years they can get the second visa. However, they still need three years to gain PR eligibility. The tricky thing is that no PR or citizenship means intl students are not able to apply to most specialty training programs. Am I right?

Plz correct if I am wrong. But if that’s true, all of the current and perspective international students must have a plan B.

 

[pitman]

It's about half the specialties that require PR, while GP has some loopholes.

 

[lanceteer]

Doctors on a 457 or 485 who complete their internship, and hence meet the skills assessment requirement, will be able to apply for the 186 PR visa, won't they?

My point is that there is nothing to worry about, yet.

 

[Domperidone]

If only it was that simple. That easy. Like yay all your problems are solved.

Current RMOs don't have to worry too much anyway in terms of VISAs if they are on a 457 and currently eligible to apply for PR. And right now they're all scrambling to get PR. The feds mentioned earlier in the year they were going to look at the skills list again and whittle more. Of course they haven't yet.

The 485 is 2 yrs and you're not eligible for independent PR VISAs, you apply for another working VISA. Or the sponsored PR ones if you meet criteria. These ones have strings attached not everyone on the internet agrees with or wants. They are generally limited in supply so you have to be on the ball. The strings are that you have to work regional or rural for a couple of years. This will affect what you can train as for your residency years. requirements also change year to year based on a state's needs.

Like I've said over and over. If you want or don't mind being a rural practitioner or family doc that works on the fringes for a few years, it doesnt matter. There's a shortage of rural docs that's why there are sponsored VISAs.

Not everyone wants this. Well. Not every premed, med student or someone with an opinion on the internet agrees with it. But that oversupply in cities and bottlenecks in the training pipeline we've inherited are not going away soon. That's here to stay for at least a few years.

If you don't want to worry then don't worry. Its a choice you make for yourself. You can take every change as it comes and not care. Some people do that. That's not my job or intent to change that. Point is bringing to light what choices there are.

Edited for errors

 

[pitman]

BTW I followed up on retiltxet's noted exemption for GP training without PR (the other being the RVTS route). It's called the 'Letter of Support' route and is a viable one for a subset of int'l student grads who are willing (like for the RVTS route) to train rurally -- with some caveats.

Here are my half-organized notes (note that I haven't had time to contact NT to get details for its program, but anyone willing I'm sure would be much appreciated..):

----------------------------------------------
Requirements for FGAMS to apply to the AGTP Program for GP training:

"If an applicant currently holds a temporary 457 visa and gained their primary medical degree in Australia or New Zealand, then the Department of Health will accept the application on the understanding that the applicant will only be considered by a training region if [the applicant is a PR or citizen of Australian or NZ, or:]

• The applicant submits letters of support from each of the RTOs within their preferred training regions formally declaring, in writing, that the terms of their visa will not prevent their participation in the AGPT Program and confirming the RTO is able to support their training within the restrictions of their visa; and they submit a statutory declaration before 8 May 2017, stating that they will apply for permanent residency in Australia or New Zealand by the completion of the AGPT Program"

Home - Australian General Practice Training
-->
http://www.agpt.com.au/ArticleDocuments/12/2018 AGPT Eligibility Guide V2.pdf.aspx
---------------

List of the three RTOs who currently *might* write a Letter of Support:

Northern Territory
North Western Queensland
South Eastern Queensland"

457 Visa Holder Eligibility Requirements - Australian General Practice Training
-->
http://www.agpt.com.au/ArticleDocuments/186/2018 AGPT RTO 457 visa support list.pdf.aspx

(All RTOs: Training Organisations by State/Territory - Australian General Practice Training )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
SE Qld RTO:

http://www.gptq.qld.edu.au/applicants/doctors-457-visas/
http://www.gptq.qld.edu.au/our-training-region/

110 rural spots
...but there are only 41 in Zone 1:

"You will be placed outside of GPTQ’s usual 1st year GP placement process and will remain at a GPTQ-nominated Darling Downs and West Moreton Zone 1 practice for a minimum of 12 months (full-time equivalent).

"If you have not achieved permanent Australian residency by the end of the initial 12 month term, you will remain at the nominated Darling Downs and West Moreton Zone 1 practice for longer, or may be relocated to a second GPTQ-nominated training practice to meet college requirements.

"You will remain in Darling Downs and West Moreton Zone 1 for the entirety of the AGPT program.

"You are not eligible to transfer to another regional training organisation or to change your training pathway during the entirety of the program."

--------------------------------
NW Qld
https://www.gmt.edu.au/prevocational-doctors/2018-agpt-selection
https://www.gmt.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/422175/Information-Sheet-457-Visa-Holders.pdf

139 rural spots (56 ACRRM, 83 RACGP):

"Note that GMT will consider [for a Letter of Support] the following two categories of applicants:

a. Post-intern (PGY2+) doctors already located in the GMT region at the time of application, who will be ready to commence General Practice Terms from 22 January 2018;
and
b. Queensland Health Rural Generalist Doctors (who are interns or PGY2+ at the time of application)."

[weird, since:
"Eligibility to apply for a quarantined Rural Generalist Pathway intern training position is subject to the following criteria. Applicants must:
• hold Australian or New Zealand Citizenship or Australian Permanent Residency status"
Join the Pathway ]

In other words, these spots are available to former int'l students if they are already working in NW Queensland. Further, Applicants for NW Qld Letter of Support must:

- nominate North Western Queensland / Generalist Medical Training as their first preference Geographic Training Region;

- Registrars will be placed outside of GMT’s usual 1st Year GP Placement Process and will be placed in a nominated Training Post in the GMT region;

- Registrars will not be eligible to transfer to another Regional Training Organisation or to change their AGPT Training Pathway during the entirety of their AGPT training;

*** The number of Training Posts willing to engage in the process may limit, at any time, the number of applicants offered an AGPT position.

----------------------------------------
Sum:

- This identifies a route -- albeit limited -- available to former int'l students to pursue GP training before attaining PR.

- Number of spots and RTO involvement are identified as prime target of lobbying for expansion.

- Relaxation of current RTO restrictions (e.g., for NW Qld) are identified as a secondary/concurrent target of lobbying.

- Pathway pre-requisite for '457 temp visa' will need to be updated once that visa class is abolished/'renamed', as per verbal assurances of the AGPT.

- Needs further clarification of numbers/criteria for NT placements.
----------------------------------------

 

[retiltxet]

There are plenty of exemptions still available for people who really want PR and are willing to stick it out like Domperidone said. I would recommend liaising with your hospital of choice and see if they will nominate you if you sign a longer contract. You don't need general registration.

For example, all of SA is regional. Pretty much everywhere in QLD outside of Brisbane/GC. There are lots of options. If you get a job at a big l hospital in Cairns, or Adelaide I would argue that you might even have MORE advantages to train in the speciality of your choice, given that there is less competition. At my current hospital we have PGY3 full anaesthetic registrars, not PHOs that would never have got a spot in the big city.

Don't forget that once you're a registrar in a particular field, you can apply as if you are in that field already. IE; if you get in to GP training you can apply as a GP under your ANZSCO code.

The ONLY visa where you are required to hold General registration is the self sponsored 189. Some states may even sponsor you under a 190, but they hold the power ultimately. For a 187/186 there are no restrictions. The 189 still remains a decent choice for those willing to wait amid uncertainty.

That being said, given some of the changes in March 2018 will affect the 187/186 route to require work experience and apply the MLTSSL (this affects those who would apply under 253112) I would get this underway sooner rather than later. IF for some reason they determine that the eligibility requirements are time of decision and not time of application, you could be instructed to withdraw your application (for a refund) lest it be refused.

_______________________________
Here is the direct copy paste I have made from the PAM3 in LEGENDCOM (a DIBP database service that holds all the official policy of the DIBP), which is very clear with what you can apply for.

11.1.8 Departmental requirements
For the purposes of meeting the licensing and registration requirement, the applicant need only demonstrate they hold the relevant licensing and/or registration in order to perform the duties of the occupation in which they have been nominated.

Therefore, if an applicant is the holder of one of the above registration types, or is eligible to obtain one of the above registration types, the applicant may be considered to meet this requirement.

Example:

A hospital has nominated Dr Smith with the full understanding that the applicant is the holder of ‘Limited registration – Area of Need (Supervision Level 4)’. For the purposes of the Permanent Employer Sponsored Visa Programme, and in reference to the relevant legislation, Dr Smith is, at time of application, the holder of a licence and/or registration that enables him to perform the duties of the occupation in which the hospital has nominated him. Based on this, the applicant is considered to have met the licensing and/or registration requirements for the occupation of Medical Practitioner.


11.1.9 Verification from nominator
If a visa decision maker is presented with an applicant who does not hold general or specialist registration, the decision maker can request a statement from the nominator stating:

• their awareness of the applicant’s ‘type’ of registration and
• they agree that the type of licensing and/or registration the applicant holds, or is eligible to hold, will allow them to effectively perform the duties of the occupation in which they have been nominated.

11.1.10 Other supporting information
Case officers should also be aware that there is nothing within the relevant legislation (the National Law) that states that in order to progress to general or specialist registration the person must be the holder of a certain type of visa. There is also no statement that the applicant will be ‘prohibited’ from obtaining a permanent residency visa, under the National Law, until such time as general or specialist registration has been obtained

 

[pitman]

There are plenty of exemptions still available for people who really want PR and are willing to stick it out like Domperidone said. I would recommend liaising with your hospital of choice and see if they will nominate you if you sign a longer contract.

Fer sure, it's pretty easy to get a job without PR, and I don't think any harder with the proposed visa changes. Just as long as people understand that to join a training college, it would become much more difficult if not impossible for half the specialties until PGY5+. But at least with GP, there are also exemptions from the PR requirement there (RVTS, and as you pointed out, the "Letter of Support" route) if you're willing to jump a few hurdles and don't mind so much where in Australia you're training.

 

[sea and sky]

HI, my husband is going to do Masters in Australia. He's will be granted with Student visa (subclass 500). On the border.gov.au says: "Your family members can work up to 40 hours per fortnight, after you have started your course of study in Australia. If you are doing a postgraduate course, such as a Masters degree, your family members can work unlimited hours once you start your study."
Initially, he will study for 3 years and then he's planning to do a Doctoral, resulting im more 3 years.

My question is: Can I apply for HMO positions with this "work permit"? Or are there specific types of visa that allow overseas to get a HMO position?

Thanks a lot!

 

[marble30]

My question is: Can I apply for HMO positions with this "work permit"? Or are there specific types of visa that allow overseas to get a HMO position?

Thanks a lot!

Depending on where you received your medical degree, I think getting that recognized and/or an AMC certificate is going to be a bigger hurdle than the visa!

 

[Iliss]

Has anyone tried to apply for PR and got it approved during internship? I'm an international student graduating from WA medical school, currently nominated for 457 for internship in WA which as per thread is most common pathway. After reading Retiltxet's thread, i'm beginning to wonder if I can push for PR sponsor visa rather than 457 from the hospital considering nowdays intern contract is offered for 3 year contract rather than old 1 year contract and renewal every year. I have organised an appointment with hospital visa people and was wondering if there were individuals who successfully received PR sponsor visa for internship since I could then make a case for argument (i.e. ask them to apply for 186 visa). I'm presuming that they would say 457 visa is the only way for interns to work which I thought is the only way too as per other international graduating colleagues. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

This thread has been super useful, cleared things that some migration agents did not have a clue and were giving me 'cliche' answers and it seems like best thing is to get PR ASAP than explore and get stuck when it comes to training..

 

[retiltxet]

Has anyone tried to apply for PR and got it approved during internship? I'm an international student graduating from WA medical school, currently nominated for 457 for internship in WA which as per thread is most common pathway. After reading Retiltxet's thread, i'm beginning to wonder if I can push for PR sponsor visa rather than 457 from the hospital considering nowdays intern contract is offered for 3 year contract rather than old 1 year contract and renewal every year. I have organised an appointment with hospital visa people and was wondering if there were individuals who successfully received PR sponsor visa for internship since I could then make a case for argument (i.e. ask them to apply for 186 visa). I'm presuming that they would say 457 visa is the only way for interns to work which I thought is the only way too as per other international graduating colleagues. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

This thread has been super useful, cleared things that some migration agents did not have a clue and were giving me 'cliche' answers and it seems like best thing is to get PR ASAP than explore and get stuck when it comes to training..

Yes, It's totally doable, you need to do it (apply that is) before March 2018 because the rules change then. They (DIBP) have issued guidance that as long as your occupation is on the list (legislative instrument) as of the date of your application you're fine.

I was lucky in that the hospital that sponsored me was open to it for both workforce stability and just cause they are nice people.

You can do either 186 or 187, is probably the better one because A) perth is no longer on the 187 list and B) there is no 2 year regional requirement and C) no obligation to work for the employer for any length of time.

General registration is only required under the 189/190 visa stream.

 

[Iliss]

Thanks for prompt reply Retiltxet! I saw a migration agent yesterday and asked about 186 visa for the hospital to sponsor me. She said for 186 visa (direct entry stream), we need 2 years of experience in order to apply for 186 visa hence I would not be eligible since obviously prior to internship, we don't have 'doctor' experience. I told her about 186/187 visa not requiring 'general/specialist' registration for doctors and whether this is applicable for me but she wasn't sure if doctors had different eligibiltiy (i.e. bypass the 2 year experience requirement) Is this correct? I feel like the hospital visa officer would say same thing unless I can show some document with the information crystal clear saying we can apply for this. Furthermore, am i correct in saying that you have been offered for PR visa in internship (i.e. can I apply for 186 visa for internship instead of 457 if hospital agrees)? or is that for when you do RMO next year.
Much appreciated for sharing your information =)

 

[Domperidone]

I'm reading the requirements on the 186 right now.
It does say under eligibliity

• have the required skills and qualifications for the position (at time of application lodgement you must have the required skills and qualifications for the position you have been nominated for – you must hold any mandatory registration, license or professional membership, or you must already be fully assessed as suitable by the relevant body)

(which would refer to having full registration I'm assuming - as under the 189 we just needed full rego to get it, so we didn't have work 2 years)

OR under additional eligibility

• worked for at least two out of the previous three years (before the nomination is made) in the same position your employer nominated you for while you held your subclass 457 visa as the primary visa holder, your employer has nominated you for a permanent position under this stream, and the nomination has been approved.
• Your skills do not need to be assessed because you have already worked for your nominating employer for two years in Australia

(I'm on a 189 so I've no experience on 186s)

Or am I missing something and there's a way to bypass both these eligibility requirements? @retiltxet, I don't doubt you, but how does it work exactly then? Because it would a lifeline to some folks right now if you can bypass both these eligiblities!

 

[retiltxet]

If you have a read at one of my above posts you'll see the excerpt I posted from LEGENDCOM which is a subscription service provided by the DIBP. It is the manual that decision makers use when they process your visa. A lot of these things aren't public per se but can be accessed if you pay for the subscription.

Ask your migration agent to look it up in LegendCOM in the nomination for ENS/RSMS section... Here is the exact link: ImmiAccount - Login It can only be accessed if you have a login.

I did the 187 visa process through NSW which does not require relevant experience in the Direct Entry Stream. The hospital actually benefits because they dont have to pay any nomination fees. The only thing with a 187 is they are taking a while to process now. You may find it faster to just wait a year and do a 189. Except in my case the hospital just decided to pay for everything, along with guaranteeing rotations and a career path in my field , and that clinched it for me, since on the 187 you have to promise to work for the same employer for 2 years.

I've quoted this portion again:


11.1.4.1 Overview
To practice in Australia, applicants seeking nomination in the medical field must hold the relevant licensing and/or registration to perform the duties of their nominated occupation.

The Australian Medical Board (the Board) currently issues 5 types of registration:

• General registration
• Specialist registration
• Provisional registration
• Limited registration
• Non-Practising Registration (not further discussed in this instruction).

11.1.9 Verification from nominator
If a visa decision maker is presented with an applicant who does not hold general or specialist registration, the decision maker can request a statement from the nominator stating:

• their awareness of the applicant’s ‘type’ of registration and
• they agree that the type of licensing and/or registration the applicant holds, or is eligible to hold, will allow them to effectively perform the duties of the occupation in which they have been nominated.

11.1.10 Other supporting information
Case officers should also be aware that there is nothing within the relevant legislation (the National Law) that states that in order to progress to general or specialist registration the person must be the holder of a certain type of visa. There is also no statement that the applicant will be ‘prohibited’ from obtaining a permanent residency visa, under the National Law, until such time as general or specialist registration has been obtained

 

[Iliss]

Thanks for reply @retiltxet. The reason why i'm asking about PR visa in internship is because of my nationality with national service (army) that's giving me a lot of trouble at this stage. Basically PR would mean i would not need to go hence the desperate attitude lol. I guess my option is if the hospital would sponsor me with 186 visa (since 187 isn't viable where i am)? but as you say the processing time takes a while. I'm not sure if the hospitals at this late stage would accept an intern applicant who have got an accepted offer from elsewhere (as in regional area for RSMS).

Edit: I've also asked the hospital and other hospitals if I could do full 1-2 years of regional/rural placement and sponsor me for PR visa for that if possible, hopefully they can do it

 

[Meatballhahaha]

An update on the issue:

AMSA has gotten confirmation from the Dept of Immigration that the proposed visa changes mean that the most viable visa route for int'l medical students will be to start on the 485 for two years, then switch to the new '457' (which will have the two-year work experience prerequisite), and then having to wait another three years before being allowed to apply for Permanent Residency (PR). Students are NOT expected to be able to use the years spent under the 485 towards the three required under the 457. In other words, it will take int'l student grads 5+ years before getting PR.

This means that int'l student grads will not be able to apply to certain training colleges, notably the RACGP and ACRRM GP colleges under the AGTP (the funder for most GP training spots), and the RACS, for at least 5 postgrad years.

AMSA has also gotten confirmation from the AGTP that *at this point* they will not relax their PR requirement.

There are two possible routes to help int'l students now:
1) put pressure onto cross-benchers (Xenophon and Hanson, I would think) to negotiate an exemption for int'l students (which for consistency would prob need to apply to all int'l students in Australia); and/or

2) get the AGTP, RACS, and the handful of other colleges with a PR prerequisite to relax that requirement, even if just for anyone who had graduated from an Australian med school.

After a bit of a scare, AMSA has just last weekend confirmed its unqualified support for international students and their need to get into training colleges earlier, in what was a humiliating defeat for an initial handful of plotters. The unanimous vote in the end was spearheaded by Zhee, the International Students Network chair. The ISN is now gearing up to lobby the AMA and the colleges, with others focusing on the med schools themselves.

The number one thing anyone concerned can do is to get involved, to help ensure that there is a unified voice ready to instigate a backlash in what is estimated to be a billion-dollar industry funding the states.

To do that, I highly recommend int'ls to complete the following short survey and get every international student you know to do the same:
AMSA ISN internship tracking system

ISN is aware that the question for 'student ID' may be confronting, so note that you can just put there any random number. The key is that your email address will soon be used for an opt-out campaign to keep you informed and organized on this issue over the next year or more.

Hope this helps. Let the battle begin.

Hi Pitman,

I checked the website of RACP and couldn't find the requirement of PR for physician training. Does the PR requirement only apply to surgery and GP training?
Apply to start Basic Training

And essentially, if RACP doesn't prohibit non-PR/non-citizens from applying physician training, graduates can apply visa 485 (2 years for intern and RMO) then get into college for physician training and becomes registrar and apply visa 189 +/- 190. Am I understanding the situation correctly?

 

[Domperidone]

No PR does not apply to BPT.
Or PR is not used as selection criteria by RACP.

PR requirement only applies to certain royal colleges, such as GP, surgery, ophthal etc. Just gloss over the selection criteria for them.

If you're not sure, just email them directly.
All the colleges respond fairly fast.
For questions like this, always go to the official source, it's easy and quick. And there's no doubts about the information you're getting.
Literally, you can email word for word the question you just posted.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just realized you're still at the beginning, lol.
Either premed or entering first year. I'm not terribly sure I'd use PR as a way of choosing a specialty. But I would suggest factoring in PR, when it comes time to choose geographically, where you go. As in, if you were surgically oriented, IM could turn out to be your worst nightmare, it's so different. Hence why there's so many dedicated residents who are willing to wait to PGY6++ to get into a surgical college now (because that's what it takes) rather than do something else, to be finished training sooner. The BPT exam is also notoriously hard, you may not hear much about it as a pre-clinical year, you will once you start doing rotations.

Long story short, yes, you can apply for BPT (basic physician's training) to RACP on work VISA without PR. And be a BPT that is not a PR or citizen. Then while training apply for PR.

To be clear, just being on BPT doesn't mean you're "a registrar". BPTs (basic physician trainees) can be residents and in fact most BPT1s are 'residents' in practice at their hospitals. (assuming you know the difference between an Australian registrar and resident). At least that is true of RACP and the BPT pathway, I wouldn't extend this to other colleges.

In some cases - sometimes depending on state or hospital (emphasis on depending) - you can technically apply for BPT after the intern year. And be a BPT1 as PGY2 - because you'd still be doing resident level jobs and be filling a resident level position. It's just that they have to be mostly medical rotations (as opposed to surgical for example).

The only advantage to be gotten if you happen to be leaning towards IM or medical things, is that PR will not be a roadblock to starting training.

 

[retiltxet]

And essentially, if RACP doesn't prohibit non-PR/non-citizens from applying physician training, graduates can apply visa 485 (2 years for intern and RMO) then get into college for physician training and becomes registrar and apply visa 189 +/- 190. Am I understanding the situation correctly?

At the moment you don't need to be a registrar to apply for the 189/190, you only need general registration. Then you submit an expression of interest etc. It's not a complicated process.

Even if they remove some specialities off the "list" (like medical practioner nec) you can always just apply under a different category, for example if you are a GP trainee you can apply as a "General Practitioner" if you are a medical registrar you can apply as an "Specialist Physician", you don't need the qualification, you only need to be a trainee in the program.

 

[pitman]

When you say "can" apply as a trainee, do you mean simply that you can get away with it? Those never used to be for trainees, though back last decade there wasn't much due diligence in the system and some grads did get away with calling themselves a 'General Practitioner' (illegally, at least back then).

 

[retiltxet]

When you say "can" apply as a trainee, do you mean simply that you can get away with it? Those never used to be for trainees, though back last decade there wasn't much due diligence in the system and some grads did get away with calling themselves a 'General Practitioner' (illegally, at least back then).

Hi Pitman, No I mean that you are entitled to apply as whatever you're currently working as. It's a little known policy that's been in existence as long as the early 90s.
In short, there are many loopholes to PR that people just don't know exist. Here is the most recent quote from the 1 Jan 2018 Migration stack:

10.3.7.1 Medical Registrars
Positions in which doctors are completing their hospital based training are known by various terms throughout the process, such as Resident Medical Officer, Junior Registrar and Registrar.

The occupation of Resident Medical Officer (ANZSCO 253112), which also includes the occupation of Medical Intern as a specialisation, is an appropriate occupation to describe doctors who are completing this period of hospital based training and may be used for the entire period so that different nominations are not required each time the doctor starts a rotation in a different speciality.

If, after the initial period of hospital based training, the doctor chooses to specialise in a particular field and accepts a position as a Registrar to train in a particular speciality, it is also appropriate for them to be nominated in the relevant specialist Medical Practitioner occupation (unit groups within ANZSCO minor group 253) - for example:

• a doctor working as a Cardiology Registrar could be nominated in the occupation of Cardiologist (ANZSCO 253312)
• a Paediatric Surgical Registrar could be nominated in the occupation of Paediatric Surgeon (ANZSCO 253516).

This is because the various ANZSCO unit groups within minor group 253 provide that Medical Registrars training in these specialties are included in the respective unit groups. In such cases, it is appropriate for either occupation to be used to describe the position (Resident Medical Officer or the relevant specialist ‘Medical Practitioner’ occupation).

To ensure that any associated visa application is assessed against the appropriate skill requirements, applicants should clearly note in both the nomination and visa applications that the position is that of a Registrar.

 

[Meatballhahaha]

No PR does not apply to BPT.
Or PR is not used as selection criteria by RACP.

PR requirement only applies to certain royal colleges, such as GP, surgery, ophthal etc. Just gloss over the selection criteria for them.

If you're not sure, just email them directly.
All the colleges respond fairly fast.
For questions like this, always go to the official source, it's easy and quick. And there's no doubts about the information you're getting.
Literally, you can email word for word the question you just posted.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just realized you're still at the beginning, lol.
Either premed or entering first year. I'm not terribly sure I'd use PR as a way of choosing a specialty. But I would suggest factoring in PR, when it comes time to choose geographically, where you go. As in, if you were surgically oriented, IM could turn out to be your worst nightmare, it's so different. Hence why there's so many dedicated residents who are willing to wait to PGY6++ to get into a surgical college now (because that's what it takes) rather than do something else, to be finished training sooner. The BPT exam is also notoriously hard, you may not hear much about it as a pre-clinical year, you will once you start doing rotations.

Long story short, yes, you can apply for BPT (basic physician's training) to RACP on work VISA without PR. And be a BPT that is not a PR or citizen. Then while training apply for PR.

To be clear, just being on BPT doesn't mean you're "a registrar". BPTs (basic physician trainees) can be residents and in fact most BPT1s are 'residents' in practice at their hospitals. (assuming you know the difference between an Australian registrar and resident). At least that is true of RACP and the BPT pathway, I wouldn't extend this to other colleges.

In some cases - sometimes depending on state or hospital (emphasis on depending) - you can technically apply for BPT after the intern year. And be a BPT1 as PGY2 - because you'd still be doing resident level jobs and be filling a resident level position. It's just that they have to be mostly medical rotations (as opposed to surgical for example).

The only advantage to be gotten if you happen to be leaning towards IM or medical things, is that PR will not be a roadblock to starting training.

Thank you so much for your detailed reply. I’m entering second year

I have the impression that as long as you successfully entered college for specialist training you will be deemed as a registrar? I understand that some hospital may continue to refer you as resident for BPT1 but I thought for PR application, you would be seen as registrar? Anyway, I will send an email to the authority for clarification and will update you guys once I got an official reply.

And I have determined to be a physician and have no plan to pursue surgical career. So I think the fact that RACP doesn’t require PR to enter BPT is perfect for my situation.

Again, thank you very much for providing us with so much detailed information! It’s been a great help

 

[Meatballhahaha]

Another question regarding the intern position for graduates

I understand that for international students, some may have to work in relatively rural areas for their intern year. In such case, after intern year and may be RMO year, will we be able to move back to the city side? Even if not, will there be BPT for rural areas? I’m very determined to be a specialist physician for my future career.

Location of work is not a concern for me, as long as I get to enter college for specialty training eventually.