Australian Medical school and matching

[premedliz]

Hello! I’m currently considering applying to Australian medical schools, specifically USyd and maybe UMelb. I feel like my stats are okay enough for a DO school, but I think a global education could add a lot to how I practice medicine. I’m also currently getting my MPH in epidemiology/ biostatistics from Boston U and don’t want to wait the extra year to apply to US schools.

Any US citizens go to an Australian school and struggle to get matched into residency after returning?

I know USyd and UMelb are both outstanding programs, but since the USMLE step 1 is changing to pass/fail I’m wondering how IMGs will stand out in applications now.

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[Wolvvs]

Have you considered UQ-Ochsner or do you really want to spend the full four years in Australia? Advice generally for medicine is train where you want to practice. As an IMG you're substantially increasing your risk of not matching. If you want to spend time in Australia but still be able to match well, UQ-Ochsner is your best bet. Otherwise you're sort of on your own. The Australian training system starting in 3rd and 4th year all the way through residency is slower-paced and it takes longer to take the training wheels off. I think you'd be putting yourself at a disadvantage if you deliberately do clinical years abroad when you could do them in the US.

I think it's not too late to apply for DO for fall entry 2022 right? If you want to practice in the US, applying to DO/MD depending on your stats is really the best idea. Sydney and Melbourne are excellent programs, but their goal is to turn Australian students into Australian doctors.

 

[premedliz]

Have you considered UQ-Ochsner or do you really want to spend the full four years in Australia? Advice generally for medicine is train where you want to practice. As an IMG you're substantially increasing your risk of not matching. If you want to spend time in Australia but still be able to match well, UQ-Ochsner is your best bet. Otherwise you're sort of on your own. The Australian training system starting in 3rd and 4th year all the way through residency is slower-paced and it takes longer to take the training wheels off. I think you'd be putting yourself at a disadvantage if you deliberately do clinical years abroad when you could do them in the US.

I think it's not too late to apply for DO for fall entry 2022 right? If you want to practice in the US, applying to DO/MD depending on your stats is really the best idea. Sydney and Melbourne are excellent programs, but their goal is to turn Australian students into Australian doctors.

Thank you so much for your honesty! I’ve looked into the UQ-O program, but it is incredibly expensive/ super large class sized with very mixed reviews from its students.

I completely agree that I would be dropping my chances by about 30% as an IMG, but wouldn’t residency programs value a degree from USyd (#19 in the world) higher than say a Caribbean school?

Also, UQ-O spends 2 years in the US, so wouldn’t that automatically eliminate NY as an application state (home to the most IMG friendly residency programs)?

 

[Wolvvs]

Thank you so much for your honesty! I’ve looked into the UQ-O program, but it is incredibly expensive/ super large class sized with very mixed reviews from its students.

I completely agree that I would be dropping my chances by about 30% as an IMG, but wouldn’t residency programs value a degree from USyd (#19 in the world) higher than say a Caribbean school?

Also, UQ-O spends 2 years in the US, so wouldn’t that automatically eliminate NY as an application state (home to the most IMG friendly residency programs)?

Caribbean schools are a known quantity whereas Australian are not, so you're not going to get any real advantage. For my school, UQ, only a handful of non-Ochsner students have applied for the match and roughly 50% of them matched. Don't have similar stats for Sydney or Melbourne but you could probably ask them.

UQ-Ochsner does not eliminate NY, they have the same deal with NY that the Caribbean schools do where there's an exception to that rule.

I'm a current UQ-Ochsner student so happy to answer any questions you might have (and also know I'm a bit biased towards the program lol). Tuition is actually similar to other Australian schools, Sydney is $64K USD per year for international students compared to $68 for UQ-Ochsner. I think there are absolutely some pros and cons, but on balance, if you want to come back to the US, UQ-Ochsner is by far your best option. You can check their match list, they publish it every year.

 

[premedliz]

Caribbean schools are a known quantity whereas Australian are not, so you're not going to get any real advantage. For my school, UQ, only a handful of non-Ochsner students have applied for the match and roughly 50% of them matched. Don't have similar stats for Sydney or Melbourne but you could probably ask them.

UQ-Ochsner does not eliminate NY, they have the same deal with NY that the Caribbean schools do where there's an exception to that rule.

I'm a current UQ-Ochsner student so happy to answer any questions you might have (and also know I'm a bit biased towards the program lol). Tuition is actually similar to other Australian schools, Sydney is $64K USD per year for international students compared to $68 for UQ-Ochsner. I think there are absolutely some pros and cons, but on balance, if you want to come back to the US, UQ-Ochsner is by far your best option. You can check their match list, they publish it every year.

Thank you so so much! This helps a lot.

 

[mcat_taker]

@premedliz you've gotten some excellent advice here. Generally the advice is to go to med school in the country where you want to practice as there is always a bias against IMGs. If you are set on med school in Australia do UQ-O which will set you up better for the match. DO vs UQ-O is a tough choice and you can make arguments either way- it usually comes down to the specific DO school and location. I'm sure Sydney is a fine school (probably objectively better than most DO schools) but you will be on your own for matching. You need to be ok with staying in Australia and potentially not matching if you pursue this route. Decide what is most important.

There are many US born and raised and trained doctors who do global health and they didn't need a degree from Australia to do it.

 

[hopefulpremed_to_md]

Caribbean schools are a known quantity whereas Australian are not, so you're not going to get any real advantage. For my school, UQ, only a handful of non-Ochsner students have applied for the match and roughly 50% of them matched. Don't have similar stats for Sydney or Melbourne but you could probably ask them.

UQ-Ochsner does not eliminate NY, they have the same deal with NY that the Caribbean schools do where there's an exception to that rule.

I'm a current UQ-Ochsner student so happy to answer any questions you might have (and also know I'm a bit biased towards the program lol). Tuition is actually similar to other Australian schools, Sydney is $64K USD per year for international students compared to $68 for UQ-Ochsner. I think there are absolutely some pros and cons, but on balance, if you want to come back to the US, UQ-Ochsner is by far your best option. You can check their match list, they publish it every year.

This is a very detailed response. Thank you very much for it. I'm a Canadian applicant, so unfortunately, even if I want to attend the UQ-Ochsner program, I can't.

My first preference would be matching back to Canada, followed by matching in the US and lastly, still making sure I have a good shot in training in Aus if I don't match in North America. Would you still recommend UQ due to its strong international connections (from what I have read on their website) or another university? As a current Australian medical school, I feel like you may have the most informed answer haha. Thanks for your time.

 

[Wolvvs]

This is a very detailed response. Thank you very much for it. I'm a Canadian applicant, so unfortunately, even if I want to attend the UQ-Ochsner program, I can't.

My first preference would be matching back to Canada, followed by matching in the US and lastly, still making sure I have a good shot in training in Aus if I don't match in North America. Would you still recommend UQ due to its strong international connections (from what I have read on their website) or another university? As a current Australian medical school, I feel like you may have the most informed answer haha. Thanks for your time.

I took a look at the MD program annual report published by UQ for 2020 and 2019.

For 2020, there were 57 Canadian students, 8 commenced CaRMS process, and 7 proceeded to the final ranking stage, 7/7 matched. 1 got a US residency, and the remainder all got Australian internships (and one got an internship in Singapore).

For 2019, there were 60 Canadian students, 11 commenced the CaRMS process and 6 proceeded to the final ranking stage, 5/6 matched. 1 got a US residency, and the remainder (including the one who did not match in Canada) got internships in Australia.

I don't know much about CaRMS so I'm not sure what it means to commence the CaRMS process but not proceed to ranking. But it does look like for these two classes all Canadian graduates were able to obtain residency in North America or an internship in Australia. You should be able to get similar numbers from the other schools. UQ has the largest international cohort of any school (and I think the largest Canadian cohort but not sure), and that means better support available.

The advice in previous posts doesn't apply as much to Canadian students because CaRMS is limited to Canadian citizens and permanent residents only, whereas the US allows anyone to apply.

 

[hopefulpremed_to_md]

I took a look at the MD program annual report published by UQ for 2020 and 2019.

For 2020, there were 57 Canadian students, 8 commenced CaRMS process, and 7 proceeded to the final ranking stage, 7/7 matched. 1 got a US residency, and the remainder all got Australian internships (and one got an internship in Singapore).

For 2019, there were 60 Canadian students, 11 commenced the CaRMS process and 6 proceeded to the final ranking stage, 5/6 matched. 1 got a US residency, and the remainder (including the one who did not match in Canada) got internships in Australia.

I don't know much about CaRMS so I'm not sure what it means to commence the CaRMS process but not proceed to ranking. But it does look like for these two classes all Canadian graduates were able to obtain residency in North America or an internship in Australia. You should be able to get similar numbers from the other schools. UQ has the largest international cohort of any school (and I think the largest Canadian cohort but not sure), and that means better support available.

The advice in previous posts doesn't apply as much to Canadian students because CaRMS is limited to Canadian citizens and permanent residents only, whereas the US allows anyone to apply.

Thanks for providing that information. Not sure what you mean though when you said "the advice in previous posts doesn't apply as much to Canadian students". Could you please elaborate on that? Thanks

 

[Wolvvs]

Thanks for providing that information. Not sure what you mean though when you said "the advice in previous posts doesn't apply as much to Canadian students". Could you please elaborate on that? Thanks

The advice that attending Australian universities isn't superior to Caribbean when it comes to matching. For matching to the US, US clinical experience is really important, and Caribbean students get the full two years of USCE whereas students in Australia can only get whatever time they have for electives. To my knowledge, attending 4 years in Australia is a much more viable option for going back to Canada, but I'm not an expert in this area.

 

[hopefulpremed_to_md]

The advice that attending Australian universities isn't superior to Caribbean when it comes to matching. For matching to the US, US clinical experience is really important, and Caribbean students get the full two years of USCE whereas students in Australia can only get whatever time they have for electives. To my knowledge, attending 4 years in Australia is a much more viable option for going back to Canada, but I'm not an expert in this area.

Gotcha. So would you say that it's really difficult for non - UQ-OCHSNER students to match in America because they don't have enough clinical experience (2 years like Carribean and Ochsner students)?

 

[Wolvvs]

Gotcha. So would you say that it's really difficult for non - UQ-OCHSNER students to match in America because they don't have enough clinical experience (2 years like Carribean and Ochsner students)?

For non-Ochsner students at UQ, the match rate over the past few years has been around 50%--although only about 10 students tried to match over the past 3 or 4 years so very small sample size. A lack of US clinical experience could have contributed, and also very few students use Australian universities to get to the US (outside of the Ochsner pathway) so resources and connections are limited.

 

[mcat_taker]

The advice that attending Australian universities isn't superior to Caribbean when it comes to matching. For matching to the US, US clinical experience is really important, and Caribbean students get the full two years of USCE whereas students in Australia can only get whatever time they have for electives. To my knowledge, attending 4 years in Australia is a much more viable option for going back to Canada, but I'm not an expert in this area.

FYI UQ has been pretty flexible in the past for the amount of rotations you can do in the U.S and at Ochsner specifically. Usually any Canadian or Australian that has shown an interest in doing clinical rotations at Ochsner gets a spot if they are in good standing academically and especially if they have taken step 1. I knew lots of UQ students that were easily able to do 2-3 rotations at Ochsner just for the experience or even an entire semester in 4th year if they wanted. There is usually an Ochsner student wanting to swap semesters and do more time in Australia and a UQ non ochsner student gunning to match who wants to swap semesters. Bottom line from what I witnessed is it is very easy to get the USCE at Ochsner if you are a 4 year UQ trad student.

 

[mcat_taker]

This is a very detailed response. Thank you very much for it. I'm a Canadian applicant, so unfortunately, even if I want to attend the UQ-Ochsner program, I can't.

My first preference would be matching back to Canada, followed by matching in the US and lastly, still making sure I have a good shot in training in Aus if I don't match in North America. Would you still recommend UQ due to its strong international connections (from what I have read on their website) or another university? As a current Australian medical school, I feel like you may have the most informed answer haha. Thanks for your time.

Yes. By the numbers UQ has the largest international cohort and the largest number of Canadians by far. This means that you have lots of Canadians in your class which means more support for studying for the canadian exams and other things specific to what you need. There is also an affiliation with Queens University (I think?) but I don't remember specifically.

 

[premedliz]

@premedliz you've gotten some excellent advice here. Generally the advice is to go to med school in the country where you want to practice as there is always a bias against IMGs. If you are set on med school in Australia do UQ-O which will set you up better for the match. DO vs UQ-O is a tough choice and you can make arguments either way- it usually comes down to the specific DO school and location. I'm sure Sydney is a fine school (probably objectively better than most DO schools) but you will be on your own for matching. You need to be ok with staying in Australia and potentially not matching if you pursue this route. Decide what is most important.

There are many US born and raised and trained doctors who do global health and they didn't need a degree from Australia to do it.

Thank you!

 

[sean80439]

I took a look at the MD program annual report published by UQ for 2020 and 2019.

For 2020, there were 57 Canadian students, 8 commenced CaRMS process, and 7 proceeded to the final ranking stage, 7/7 matched. 1 got a US residency, and the remainder all got Australian internships (and one got an internship in Singapore).

For 2019, there were 60 Canadian students, 11 commenced the CaRMS process and 6 proceeded to the final ranking stage, 5/6 matched. 1 got a US residency, and the remainder (including the one who did not match in Canada) got internships in Australia.

I don't know much about CaRMS so I'm not sure what it means to commence the CaRMS process but not proceed to ranking. But it does look like for these two classes all Canadian graduates were able to obtain residency in North America or an internship in Australia. You should be able to get similar numbers from the other schools. UQ has the largest international cohort of any school (and I think the largest Canadian cohort but not sure), and that means better support available.

The advice in previous posts doesn't apply as much to Canadian students because CaRMS is limited to Canadian citizens and permanent residents only, whereas the US allows anyone to apply.

If this is who I think it is, they matched the following year after doing internship in Australia.

 

[premedliz]

If this is who I think it is, they matched the following year after doing internship in Australia.

Thanks that's good to know! I didn't realize you could apply to US residency and do an Australian internship.

 

[celling]

I graduated from Flinders and did not match into a categorical general surgery position. Took a preliminary general surgery position to get my foot in the door. The clinical experience in Australia is much superior to the Caribean and will put you ahead of a lot of other trainees once you get in a program. However, in the more competitive residencies, they don't have much experience with Australian grads. So, they are more hesitant to offer positions to them.

From my graduating class, we also had 2 match for internal medicine, one match for ER, one match for Pediatrics.

 

[hopefulpremed_to_md]

I graduated from Flinders and did not match into a categorical general surgery position. Took a preliminary general surgery position to get my foot in the door. The clinical experience in Australia is much superior to the Caribean and will put you ahead of a lot of other trainees once you get in a program. However, in the more competitive residencies, they don't have much experience with Australian grads. So, they are more hesitant to offer positions to them.

From my graduating class, we also had 2 match for internal medicine, one match for ER, one match for Pediatrics.

Since you graduated from an Australian medical, I was hoping I could connect with you. I plan on attending UQ this coming year. Thanks.

 

[celling]

Since you graduated from an Australian medical, I was hoping I could connect with you. I plan on attending UQ this coming year. Thanks.

Sure. Would be glad to help.