Nephrology Fellowship 2022 - 2023

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
I was wondering how do you guys rank the programs. ( and regarding the programs that we didnt hear from this far. does this mean that they are done with invitations or not) I heard from these programs so far.
1. UPENN.
2. JHH.
3. UNC
4. UCLA.
5. UCD
6. Columbia
7. Wash u
8. Rush.
9. Henry Ford.
10. UVA
11. Tulane.

Members don't see this ad.
 
I've been able to save many applicants from making the worse career decision of their lives, like the person below. If you are going to invest this many years of your life into this, you deserve to know the whole picture. PM me and we can talk like men.

Decided against a renal application in the past and couldn’t be happier as a hospitalist. I’m making close to 300k a year before bonus and overtime , and only working 26 weeks.

You have to draw a line in the sand. No one in the real world cares if you’re doing nephrology at Baylor or MGH, and nobody will Pat you on the back when you’re 60 years old taking phone calls about Na of 127 at 3am.

I'm glad I talked you out of it and saved you many years of your working career. Imagine, if would have gone into nephrology, this is
what you would be staring at:

1. 2 years of fellowship getting payed 55k/yr
2. Starting salaries at $200-220K/year for 2-3 years initially(working the whole year, not 26 weeks). Running to multiple hospitals/dialysis centers per day. Taking night call for you group.
3. Hope your group treats you fairly and make you partner? No guarantees, and I've seen plenty of rug pulls at the last minute minute among my colleagues. To ultimately make how much? Maybe 350K/year as a partner, working full time, not 7 on 7 off. Still driving like a maniac and taking night calls just so you can claim superiority as a specialist. All for what?
4. By the way, that senior partner of yours who is making 600k/year because he has multiple JVs with FMC/DaVita. He's not going to sell those shares to you or split that income with you. He bought in years ago and why should he share something that already belongs to him. You can JV when the next dialysis unit opens up(which is how most neph groups operate). And that is a never because dialysis units are already saturated in this country and there's very limited new growth.
5. And people act surprised that nephrology can't recruit fellows ! ?
 
For those who are set on being a nephrologist (hopefully academic), you would want to look out for some quality of life (or lack thereof) red flags.
Because you want to get the best training out there (it is a buyer's market after all), you should make sure these programs have the full scope of nephrology practice.

Red flags would be
1) Absence of night float system - admittedly not every smaller program can have renal night float. So this is not a deal breaker. But I would be leery of a program with only 4 fellows in a large academic medical center.

2) Whether fellows have dropped out before. This is the ultimately red flag and signifies a low quality fellowship program. No nephrology fellow at a top notch institute and program would be swayed by the Nephrology is Dead thread. Therefore if people have dropped out before, that would mean more may do so in the future. Imagine q3 call lol. do you think attendings are going to pick up no fellow night call? nope lol. prove me wrong haha.

3) Lack of renal pathology in house or renal fellows doing percutaneous renal biopsies via ultrasound. While most nephrologists will not be doing his/her own biopsies in non-academic practice, doing biopsies in house tends to mean the renal pathology is in house. That is worth its weight

4) Lack of renal transplant - the top centers will all have renal transplant in house (whether or not they have the renal transplant fellowship)

5) Lack of peritoneal dialysis - this is becoming a lost art but will be crucial for nephrologists who will eventually pick up a few patients on PD in the future.

6) If they make the renal fellows doing the temporary HD catheters / vascaths. There should be no reason for renal fellows to do these procedures outside of personal interest of the fellow. ICU fellows can do procedures and lines to his/her heart's content because he/she does not have to write progress notes for patients on off-HD days, do on HD notes, do new consults, round on a full list of patients without a resident's help, go to renal clinic, go to the outpatient HD center....
The ICU fellow will do ICU consults of course but that's a far lower workload than what the renal fellow has to do.

7) If the attendings make fellows go in the middle of the night for EVERY consult. If someone has missed HD and is fluid overloaded, then its annoying but someone (the fellow) has to go in. If a deceased donor kidney is suddenly ready, then the fellow has to go in and call in patients on the list and then get them in and do a full H&P and make sure they havent developed any cancers like skin cancers since the last visit.
But if someone from calls for a Na of 127 and the ED did not decide it was worth it for ICU to see the patient (at which time ICU will not call renal overnight as ICU has the expertise and cajones to do 3% NaCl no problems) , then I do not see why the renal fellow needs to go in overnight for this. The fellow could simply ask the night residents to order whatever (i.e. add on uric acid, SOsm, TSH cortisol check U/A , lytes, UOsm etc... check labs q4 hours to monitor the effect of the NS given by ED ...) and then will see first thing in the morning.

8) Absence of conference time - whether NKF or ASN or the other kidney didactic conferences. This would mean you are just overworked as a scut monkey

9) Board pass rates - the renal boards are not terribly hard after you have done the ASN review course or a Brigham and learn the esoteric parts of nephrology. if there is a renal board pass rate issue, this would reflect either the fellows are worked too hard or the fellows there are not very bright. as we know from the Nephrology is Dead thread, lower tier programs take anyone with a pulse (but not a brain apparently)

10) Lack of CRRT / TPE - as the breadth of evidence for ATN and CRRT has shown lower clearance rates of 20-35mg/kg/hr are sufficient compared to higher ones, high clearance CVVHDF from those Prismaflex machines have fallen out of favor at many centers for the cheaper CVVHD machines that are usually used for home HD like the NxStage machines. Therefore absence of doing CVVH or CVVHDF versus just CVVHD is not really a red flag. but programs that also have the Prismaflex machines usually also do their own plasmapheresis for renal disease. Therefore, if a program does not do their own CRRT (or has a low volume) and outsources TPE to hematology, then consider against this program.

11) Older faculty - while this is not meant to be an ageist comment (more so mockery against older doctors beyond the age of 75 who remain in academics but who do not participate in MOC, no longer do original research, and are living on their glory days from the 80s) , I would caution against a program that has only older faculty members. You want a mix of older (for their experience and knowledge - especially if they are leaders on the ASN) and younger attendings (who understand the culture better and may have experience in point of care ultrasound and other newer skills like onconephrology) to teach you.

just a few things to look out for.

I also would agree with most of these, when i applied, i also had no idea which program is better than other, you look their websites and try to guess whats going on. I would agree that fellows should not do vascaths, i think renal pathologist and renal transplant programs inhouse is a must. I would say that having a good home hemo-pd experience, CRRT experience is also valuable. I would say that night float should also be included in every big program.

Couple of things i would add to the above points. Where you want to practice and stay eventually is important, especially the program that you are going has a big transplant center they know all the local groups, so i would also think about which region you would like to practice, it will be harder to move from one side of the country to another. Another point is, these big programs their second year in some of them is mostly research oriented, they force you to take research months, i kinda prefer elective rather than forced approach, i would try to figure out how is the second year schedule, first year is hard in every program, very inpatient heavy, but second year should be customizable to your interests whether that is interventional nephrology, research, onconephrology or transplant, home hemo-PD or GN.

Would also ask if they have GN clinic, onconephrology clinic that is multidisciplinary. These specialty clinics especially if they are multidisiplinary i think is very important to have it in a big program

In terms of CRRT, i would say learning citrate is very important, if possible would train in a program that has citrate training, it is in KDIGO guidelines now to start citrate before heparin so will be more used in our lifetime for sure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
I've been able to save many applicants from making the worse career decision of their lives, like the person below. If you are going to invest this many years of your life into this, you deserve to know the whole picture. PM me and we can talk like men.



I'm glad I talked you out of it and saved you many years of your working career. Imagine, if would have gone into nephrology, this is
what you would be staring at:

1. 2 years of fellowship getting payed 55k/yr
2. Starting salaries at $200-220K/year for 2-3 years initially(working the whole year, not 26 weeks). Running to multiple hospitals/dialysis centers per day. Taking night call for you group.
3. Hope your group treats you fairly and make you partner? No guarantees, and I've seen plenty of rug pulls at the last minute minute among my colleagues. To ultimately make how much? Maybe 350K/year as a partner, working full time, not 7 on 7 off. Still driving like a maniac and taking night calls just so you can claim superiority as a specialist. All for what?
4. By the way, that senior partner of yours who is making 600k/year because he has multiple JVs with FMC/DaVita. He's not going to sell those shares to you or split that income with you. He bought in years ago and why should he share something that already belongs to him. You can JV when the next dialysis unit opens up(which is how most neph groups operate). And that is a never because dialysis units are already saturated in this country and there's very limited new growth.
5. And people act surprised that nephrology can't recruit fellows ! ?
Well, there are many different practices, you can pick the one you like. I picked one that has minimal travel time, one week one hospital only, census runs around 25-30, next week only outpatient and dialysis rounds. They think this is more efficient which i agree. Starting salaries are not 200 anymore, maybe not in big cities, they start around 250-280 levels. If it is employed by hospital starts around 300-330 levels. USA is a big place, there are many practices if you want to live in a specific city and that place has only one practice that you get what you can get, but if you shop around and try to figure out what fits you best, you can find a place easy.

Also a lot of these big practices started tele nephrology, they are not making you travel to smaller hospitals for 2-3 patient, they do tele nephrology instead just FYI.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Well, there are many different practices, you can pick the one you like. I picked one that has minimal travel time, one week one hospital only, census runs around 25-30, next week only outpatient and dialysis rounds. They think this is more efficient which i agree. Starting salaries are not 200 anymore, maybe not in big cities, they start around 250-280 levels. If it is employed by hospital starts around 300-330 levels. USA is a big place, there are many practices if you want to live in a specific city and that place has only one practice that you get what you can get, but if you shop around and try to figure out what fits you best, you can find a place easy.

Also a lot of these big practices started tele nephrology, they are not making you travel to smaller hospitals for 2-3 patient, they do tele nephrology instead just FYI.
It sounds like you just started private practice. Practice nephrology for couple of years and we can talk again. Your perspectives will change over time. It will take you a couple of years to figure out the financial structure and inequalities in your own group.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
In regards to starting salaries being higher, I’ve posted this comment in nephrology is dead thread on 7/20:

I’ve never seen anybody get offered 300k starting, unless you are talking about hospital employed. Be very careful if a private practice group offer you a high starting salary, there’s a trap there somewhere. As an example, I know of a group who did this to attract applicants:

In the past:
200k starting salary, after 3 yrs, you make partner with no buy in.

Now:
280k starting salary, after 3 yrs, you make partner but there’s a buy in.

Watch for the traps! They will get money out of you one way or another.


PP groups will want your sweat equity for 2-4 yrs before they share JV/medical directorship fees if they do at all. I’ve had so much experience spotting career traps that I think I should offer consulting services for new grads looking for a job.
 
FYI: while our users can draw their own conclusions on the veracity of @Renal_Prometheus 's outlook on the field, it really is outside the scope of this thread which is intended to discuss the progress of current fellowship applications. To prevent this thread from being derailed we have decided to ban him from the thread, and are sharing that information for transparency.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
FYI: while our users can draw their own conclusions on the veracity of @Renal_Prometheus 's outlook on the field, it really is outside the scope of this thread which is intended to discuss the progress of current fellowship applications. To prevent this thread from being derailed we have decided to ban him from the thread, and are sharing that information for transparency.
I’m sure most (if not all) really appreciate this move.It’s almost impossible to start a nephrology related thread on SDN without RP sneaking in to bash the speciality. I know I thought twice before I started this thread. I appreciate all the honest insight, but quite frankly, it’s a little excessive and very discouraging. So, thank you
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
yes well my whole schitck on SDN here is to not to be the anti-Nephrology person, but to be the "anti-don't take a cold call if you didnt match into PCCM or cardiology from Nephrology programs and be miserable" and the "anti-don't think you care get rich quick in nephrology without connections" poster.
Yes…well that’s RP job…amazed he waited so long.
 
I need some advice. Is it too late to apply for nephro fellowship? Should I wait for next year? I am an IMG with home country IM residency. TIA
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I need some advice. Is it too late to apply for nephro fellowship? Should I wait for next year? I am an IMG with home country IM residency. TIA
I'm not sure the answer to this for sure since I've done my IM residency in the states, but there are a lot of programs that takes IMG with residency done in other countries. I know several of my peers in my IM residency that did nephrology fellowship first and then residency here. You would need to reach out to programs that historically don't match all their spots on match day (look at NRMP match data in previous in this thread). You may be able to wait until the scramble after Match day. I don't think you can sit for the nephrology boards until you do an American IM residency first though. Anyone have any experience with this?
 
I was wondering how do you guys rank the programs. ( and regarding the programs that we didnt hear from this far. does this mean that they are done with invitations or not) I heard from these programs so far.
1. UPENN.
2. JHH.
3. UNC
4. UCLA.
5. UCD
6. Columbia
7. Wash u
8. Rush.
9. Henry Ford.
10. UVA
11. Tulane.
This is hard to answer without knowing what someone is looking for in a program and what their future career goals are. All of these programs are wonderful and they each have their own unique aspect they are very good at. Columbia, UNC and Penn are wonderful for GN. Wash U has one of the biggest PD programs in the country I believe. UVA is one of the rare programs that has its own independent dialysis center (not just FMC/Davita) and has experts in plasmapheresis training. I essentially made a spreadsheet of characteristics I wanted in a program and check them off as I interview to help me decide on a rank list at the end. I pay attention during interviews to how prepared the fellows are and their perspectives on the program. Also important is how the communication with the faculty is, as they are the ones who you will be learning from.

Still getting some late invitations trickling in.
 
Have programs been providing benefits/stipend package information or have you all been asking for it?
 
I need some advice. Is it too late to apply for nephro fellowship? Should I wait for next year? I am an IMG with home country IM residency. TIA

There’s actually plenty of neph programs willing to take IMGs with no US residency. Be careful of what they promise as they are taking you to cover their night calls. I know some who did a fellowship but couldn’t get into residency. It’s a gamble for sure
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I have practiced nephrology for many years and I have many friends who have practiced nephrology for a long time. I know where the skeletons are hidden. If you want to know about private practice and it’s pitfalls, feel free to PM me. It’s free advice. I will give you a different perspective than what the academics are selling you. You are welcome to use your own common sense to judge the veracity of my statements.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Zero interviews. Applied a month late. Only applied to 10. But still. Ugh.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
UWashington vs Duke vs UNC vs Stanford. Anyone interview at these places? How would you rank these programs and why?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
not applying nephrology

curious what you all can tell me about the nephrology fellowship with hospitalist salary/combined track
 
UWashington vs Duke vs UNC vs Stanford. Anyone interview at these places? How would you rank these programs and why?
I interviewed at UNC. They are big in GN. But no night float. U wash. No night float either. Im not sure if the night float makes a big difference or not i was wonderig what people think about JHH,UCSF (both have night float. But they don't seem relaxed and im not sure which if these programs is better. Its not easy to make the rank list.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I interviewed at UNC. They are big in GN. But no night float. U wash. No night float either. Im not sure if the night float makes a big difference or not i was wonderig what people think about JHH,UCSF (both have night float. But they don't seem relaxed and im not sure which if these programs is better. Its not easy to make the rank list.
Do you know any other places that have a night float system? TIA
 
I interviewed at UNC. They are big in GN. But no night float. U wash. No night float either. Im not sure if the night float makes a big difference or not i was wonderig what people think about JHH,UCSF (both have night float. But they don't seem relaxed and im not sure which if these programs is better. Its not easy to make the rank list.
apparently UW doesn’t get busy enough for NF. Do you know if UNC goes unmatched?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I interviewed at UNC. They are big in GN. But no night float. U wash. No night float either. Im not sure if the night float makes a big difference or not i was wonderig what people think about JHH,UCSF (both have night float. But they don't seem relaxed and im not sure which if these programs is better. Its not easy to make the rank list.
I recently interviewed with UNC and swear they have a weekday night float.

apparently UW doesn’t get busy enough for NF. Do you know if UNC goes unmatched?
From the NRMP site, it looks like they've been consistently matching.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Is anyone looking more for interventional-focused programs? Struggling to decide between programs that could probably squeeze in the required ASDIN procedures within two years vs. going somewhere with a dedicated third year.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Actually
I recently interviewed with UNC and swear they have a weekday night float.


From the NRMP site, it looks like they've been consistently matching.
that is true they have NF in the week day. And yeah i dont know why UW dont have a NF. They have a bunch of fellows. By the way is job market for interventional nephrologist good. I dont have an idea and in our residency program the IR team does the procedures. Its interesting. And how is the life style.
 
not really intervention based but I’d like to get a broad exposure. My thought is that if a program is accredited for an entra year of interventional Neph, they probably have a high case load which means I can still get good exposure if I were to just to electives in with interventional or whatever. I don’t know if that makes sense
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
not applying nephrology

curious what you all can tell me about the nephrology fellowship with hospitalist salary/combined track
If you're not applying nephrology - this is the wrong thread.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I'm starting to get interview fatigue. Other than my top choice program... I'm not sure how to rank the rest, I keep changing the order. Anyone feeling equally overwhelmed with this decision? Have any of you traveled to go see the programs in person to help you decide?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Getting an error message when I try to open the excel. Anyhoo, here are the list of programs I’ve heard from

UCSD
Stanford
Mayo, Rochester
UNC
Duke
OSU
UC Davis
UA Tucson
UCLA
UW

If you’ll know of any program that didn’t fill all the spots last year, would be helpful to know when I rank programs.
Hi @ Jesse White Can you message me? I wanted to see your perspective of one of these programs but doesn't allow me to message you!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I'm starting to get interview fatigue. Other than my top choice program... I'm not sure how to rank the rest, I keep changing the order. Anyone feeling equally overwhelmed with this decision? Have any of you traveled to go see the programs in person to help you decide?
Same here. I finished an interview last week and just decided that it would be my last and canceled the rest. Beyond my top 2 it’s a toss-up, but I’d be lucky to train at any of my top 10. My wife and I were going to travel to a few of them, but then realized we’re still poor.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Same, absolutely no clue on the rankings. My personal rankings are going to be based on # of weeks of vacation, call schedule, and how much free food is provided. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would assume the top IM programs have the top nephrology programs. See last year's IM spreadsheet.
Big 4Definitely Top ~10Top ~20Top ~30
UCSFDukeCornellBaylor
BWHPennVanderbiltNYU
MGHColumbiaMichiganSinai
JHHWashU St. LouisNorthwesternUPMC
ChicagoCase Western
UTSWUNC
UCLAUCSD
MayoColorado
EmoryUAB
StanfordBU
UW
BIDMC
Yale
Duke vs UNC, seems like duke has a better reputation?
 
Duke vs UNC, seems like duke has a better reputation?
I would agree. Duke has the better reputation but I think that’s from the research side. The clinical experience at UNC looks good except that don’t have a dedicated nephrolathologist for a short time. Duke does have an in person night float though which I’m not a huge fan of.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I would agree. Duke has the better reputation but I think that’s from the research side. The clinical experience at UNC looks good except that don’t have a dedicated nephrolathologist for a short time. Duke does have an in person night float though which I’m not a huge fan of.
Is that right? Interesting given that they have a kick ass GN program
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Is that right? Interesting given that they have a kick ass GN program
Yeah, but it sounded like it was a short term problem that would fixed soon. I believe for the meantime the slides are being sent to Mayo.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Anyone applied or is considering Emory ? I am thinking 2024 season but wondering if they would have a spot outside of match?

Also any easy way to find which programs have empty spots?
 
did anybody interview at UCSF or columbia. I was wondering what you guys thought about these programs. they seemed busy. its not easy to make the rank list.
 

can read into this as deeply as you would like ...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
ncelled My NYC interviews— too expensive to live their comfortably on a fellow salary.

And as for the nyc is too expensive for a fellow salary - yep pretty much. Median Manhattan rent is now $5000

You could live in the other boroughs but commute will be a bear and your overnight calls will be brutal . Without a car your safety at night cannot even be guaranteed these days with the crime rate . When I was a fellow at NYC i lived in the city as I had to get up and quickly get to the hospital for overnight consults. the hospital did not subsidize my rent. it was brutal financially.

Unless you have family ties, don't have much debt, love NYC, or are planning to go to the nation's top (1 or 2 depending on who you ask) glomerular center at Columbia, I would recommend going to other top notch academic renal programs in the country
 
Last edited:
We've had a request to focus this thread on the topic of the renal fellowship application for 2022-2023, thanks for supporting each other in this process. wysdoc, volunteer moderator
 
We've had a request to focus this thread on the topic of the renal fellowship application for 2022-2023, thanks for supporting each other in this process. wysdoc, volunteer moderator
certainly. I will edit my prior post to get rid of the finances aspect. However, I do feel the the expensive living in NYC is a helpful comment for prospective applicants.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Top