Nephrology Fellowship 2022 - 2023

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Jesse white

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Hey guys,

Didn't see a fellowship thread for this year. I understand there may not be many of us applying to nephrology, figured I'd start a thread regardless for the few that are passionate about the field and have applied to nephrology despite allll the very many threads about how "nephrology is dead," "nephrology will take anyone with a heartbeat," "you're better off becoming a hospitalist" threads

Has anyone heard from UCSF, UCLA, Stanford, or UC Davis?

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Hi, I also applied to programs in CA. Nothing from the above.
 
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Different specialty but only applied in CA and nothing…CA is a special state lol
 
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Hi, I also applied to programs in CA. Nothing from the above.
Have you heard from any other places on the east coast if you applied to programs on the east coast? Columbia, MGH, Hopkins or mayo?
 
Have you heard from any other places on the east coast if you applied to programs on the east coast? Columbia, MGH, Hopkins or mayo?
I only applied to the west coast + texas. Today i heard from kaiser in LA. Hopefully more programs will get back to us soon!
 
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Has anyone heard from any of the Texas programs? I’ve only gotten an invitation from San Antonio so far
 
Responding to others here:
I’ve heard from UC Davis
Hey guys,

Didn't see a fellowship thread for this year. I understand there may not be many of us applying to nephrology, figured I'd start a thread regardless for the few that are passionate about the field and have applied to nephrology despite allll the very many threads about how "nephrology is dead," "nephrology will take anyone with a heartbeat," "you're better off becoming a hospitalist" threads

Has anyone heard from UCSF, UCLA, Stanford, or UC Davis?
 
Has anyone heard from any of the Texas programs? I’ve only gotten an invitation from San Antonio so far
I heard from Ut houston, utsw a few days ago. Hope they will reach out to you very soon
 
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Same, absolutely no clue on the rankings. My personal rankings are going to be based on # of weeks of vacation, call schedule, and how much free food is provided. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would assume the top IM programs have the top nephrology programs. See last year's IM spreadsheet.
Big 4Definitely Top ~10Top ~20Top ~30
UCSFDukeCornellBaylor
BWHPennVanderbiltNYU
MGHColumbiaMichiganSinai
JHHWashU St. LouisNorthwesternUPMC
ChicagoCase Western
UTSWUNC
UCLAUCSD
MayoColorado
EmoryUAB
StanfordBU
UW
BIDMC
Yale
 
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Agree with Bon22. Additionally, it might be nice to know what their night float system is structured like.

Still haven't heard from UCSF or east coast. Have any of you?
 
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Any thoughts on programs best for GN outside the ones like Columbia, Penn, UNC, and Mayo Clinic?
 
Any thoughts on programs best for GN outside the ones like Columbia, Penn, UNC, and Mayo Clinic?
U Minnesota. Their PD - Dr Nachman is a GN guy. Same with UT Dr Dia waguespack. OSU has some prominent GN peeps too
 
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Agree with Bon22. Additionally, it might be nice to know what their night float system is structured like.

Still haven't heard from UCSF or east coast. Have any of you?
Ended up with some of the New England area programs this week (BWH/MGH and Brown) and the North Carolina programs a week or so ago. I didn’t end up applying to UCSF.
 
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Do you typically reach out to programs you really want to interview at if you haven't heard from them? Have you found it be be helpful?
 
Do you typically reach out to programs you really want to interview at if you haven't heard from them? Have you found it be be helpful?
My PD offered to do this for us but idk if it's too early. Seems like it has worked for others in the past
 
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Nephro 2022-2023

I went ahead and copied another spreadsheet to make a nephro one since there hasn't been one in years.
 
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Getting an error message when I try to open the excel. Anyhoo, here are the list of programs I’ve heard from

UCSD
Stanford
Mayo, Rochester
UNC
Duke
OSU
UC Davis
UA Tucson
UCLA
UW

If you’ll know of any program that didn’t fill all the spots last year, would be helpful to know when I rank programs.
 
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I heard from UCSF the other day. No words from Stanford or UCSD so far.
When did you hear from them? I might email them if you heard from them a while ago vs wait longer if it was fairly recent
 
What are red flags you look for in programs?
If you want to talk about red flags, how about red flags for the specialty. Why do fellowship programs go unfilled year after year. Why are there so many nephrologists working as hospitalists in the community? Your honing in on red flags of programs when there’s already a sea of red flags staring in your face.
 
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What are red flags you look for in programs?
For those who are set on being a nephrologist (hopefully academic), you would want to look out for some quality of life (or lack thereof) red flags.
Because you want to get the best training out there (it is a buyer's market after all), you should make sure these programs have the full scope of nephrology practice.

Red flags would be
1) Absence of night float system - admittedly not every smaller program can have renal night float. So this is not a deal breaker. But I would be leery of a program with only 4 fellows in a large academic medical center.

2) Whether fellows have dropped out before. This is the ultimately red flag and signifies a low quality fellowship program. No nephrology fellow at a top notch institute and program would be swayed by the Nephrology is Dead thread. Therefore if people have dropped out before, that would mean more may do so in the future. Imagine q3 call lol. do you think attendings are going to pick up no fellow night call? nope lol. prove me wrong haha.

3) Lack of renal pathology in house or renal fellows doing percutaneous renal biopsies via ultrasound. While most nephrologists will not be doing his/her own biopsies in non-academic practice, doing biopsies in house tends to mean the renal pathology is in house. That is worth its weight

4) Lack of renal transplant - the top centers will all have renal transplant in house (whether or not they have the renal transplant fellowship)

5) Lack of peritoneal dialysis - this is becoming a lost art but will be crucial for nephrologists who will eventually pick up a few patients on PD in the future.

6) If they make the renal fellows doing the temporary HD catheters / vascaths. There should be no reason for renal fellows to do these procedures outside of personal interest of the fellow. ICU fellows can do procedures and lines to his/her heart's content because he/she does not have to write progress notes for patients on off-HD days, do on HD notes, do new consults, round on a full list of patients without a resident's help, go to renal clinic, go to the outpatient HD center....
The ICU fellow will do ICU consults of course but that's a far lower workload than what the renal fellow has to do.

7) If the attendings make fellows go in the middle of the night for EVERY consult. If someone has missed HD and is fluid overloaded, then its annoying but someone (the fellow) has to go in. If a deceased donor kidney is suddenly ready, then the fellow has to go in and call in patients on the list and then get them in and do a full H&P and make sure they havent developed any cancers like skin cancers since the last visit.
But if someone from calls for a Na of 127 and the ED did not decide it was worth it for ICU to see the patient (at which time ICU will not call renal overnight as ICU has the expertise and cajones to do 3% NaCl no problems) , then I do not see why the renal fellow needs to go in overnight for this. The fellow could simply ask the night residents to order whatever (i.e. add on uric acid, SOsm, TSH cortisol check U/A , lytes, UOsm etc... check labs q4 hours to monitor the effect of the NS given by ED ...) and then will see first thing in the morning.

8) Absence of conference time - whether NKF or ASN or the other kidney didactic conferences. This would mean you are just overworked as a scut monkey

9) Board pass rates - the renal boards are not terribly hard after you have done the ASN review course or a Brigham and learn the esoteric parts of nephrology. if there is a renal board pass rate issue, this would reflect either the fellows are worked too hard or the fellows there are not very bright. as we know from the Nephrology is Dead thread, lower tier programs take anyone with a pulse (but not a brain apparently)

10) Lack of CRRT / TPE - as the breadth of evidence for ATN and CRRT has shown lower clearance rates of 20-35mg/kg/hr are sufficient compared to higher ones, high clearance CVVHDF from those Prismaflex machines have fallen out of favor at many centers for the cheaper CVVHD machines that are usually used for home HD like the NxStage machines. Therefore absence of doing CVVH or CVVHDF versus just CVVHD is not really a red flag. but programs that also have the Prismaflex machines usually also do their own plasmapheresis for renal disease. Therefore, if a program does not do their own CRRT (or has a low volume) and outsources TPE to hematology, then consider against this program.

11) Older faculty - while this is not meant to be an ageist comment (more so mockery against older doctors beyond the age of 75 who remain in academics but who do not participate in MOC, no longer do original research, and are living on their glory days from the 80s) , I would caution against a program that has only older faculty members. You want a mix of older (for their experience and knowledge - especially if they are leaders on the ASN) and younger attendings (who understand the culture better and may have experience in point of care ultrasound and other newer skills like onconephrology) to teach you.

just a few things to look out for.
 
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For those who are set on being a nephrologist (hopefully academic), you would want to look out for some quality of life (or lack thereof) red flags.
Because you want to get the best training out there (it is a buyer's market after all), you should make sure these programs have the full scope of nephrology practice.

Red flags would be
1) Absence of night float system - admittedly not every smaller program can have renal night float. So this is not a deal breaker. But I would be leery of a program with only 4 fellows in a large academic medical center.

2) Whether fellows have dropped out before. This is the ultimately red flag and signifies a low quality fellowship program. No nephrology fellow at a top notch institute and program would be swayed by the Nephrology is Dead thread. Therefore if people have dropped out before, that would mean more may do so in the future. Imagine q3 call lol. do you think attendings are going to pick up no fellow night call? nope lol. prove me wrong haha.

3) Lack of renal pathology in house or renal fellows doing percutaneous renal biopsies via ultrasound. While most nephrologists will not be doing his/her own biopsies in non-academic practice, doing biopsies in house tends to mean the renal pathology is in house. That is worth its weight

4) Lack of renal transplant - the top centers will all have renal transplant in house (whether or not they have the renal transplant fellowship)

5) Lack of peritoneal dialysis - this is becoming a lost art but will be crucial for nephrologists who will eventually pick up a few patients on PD in the future.

6) If they make the renal fellows doing the temporary HD catheters / vascaths. There should be no reason for renal fellows to do these procedures outside of personal interest of the fellow. ICU fellows can do procedures and lines to his/her heart's content because he/she does not have to write progress notes for patients on off-HD days, do on HD notes, do new consults, round on a full list of patients without a resident's help, go to renal clinic, go to the outpatient HD center....
The ICU fellow will do ICU consults of course but that's a far lower workload than what the renal fellow has to do.

7) If the attendings make fellows go in the middle of the night for EVERY consult. If someone has missed HD and is fluid overloaded, then its annoying but someone (the fellow) has to go in. If a deceased donor kidney is suddenly ready, then the fellow has to go in and call in patients on the list and then get them in and do a full H&P and make sure they havent developed any cancers like skin cancers since the last visit.
But if someone from calls for a Na of 127 and the ED did not decide it was worth it for ICU to see the patient (at which time ICU will not call renal overnight as ICU has the expertise and cajones to do 3% NaCl no problems) , then I do not see why the renal fellow needs to go in overnight for this. The fellow could simply ask the night residents to order whatever (i.e. add on uric acid, SOsm, TSH cortisol check U/A , lytes, UOsm etc... check labs q4 hours to monitor the effect of the NS given by ED ...) and then will see first thing in the morning.

8) Absence of conference time - whether NKF or ASN or the other kidney didactic conferences. This would mean you are just overworked as a scut monkey

9) Board pass rates - the renal boards are not terribly hard after you have done the ASN review course or a Brigham and learn the esoteric parts of nephrology. if there is a renal board pass rate issue, this would reflect either the fellows are worked too hard or the fellows there are not very bright. as we know from the Nephrology is Dead thread, lower tier programs take anyone with a pulse (but not a brain apparently)

10) Lack of CRRT / TPE - as the breadth of evidence for ATN and CRRT has shown lower clearance rates of 20-35mg/kg/hr are sufficient compared to higher ones, high clearance CVVHDF from those Prismaflex machines have fallen out of favor at many centers for the cheaper CVVHD machines that are usually used for home HD like the NxStage machines. Therefore absence of doing CVVH or CVVHDF versus just CVVHD is not really a red flag. but programs that also have the Prismaflex machines usually also do their own plasmapheresis for renal disease. Therefore, if a program does not do their own CRRT (or has a low volume) and outsources TPE to hematology, then consider against this program.

11) Older faculty - while this is not meant to be an ageist comment (more so mockery against older doctors beyond the age of 75 who remain in academics but who do not participate in MOC, no longer do original research, and are living on their glory days from the 80s) , I would caution against a program that has only older faculty members. You want a mix of older (for their experience and knowledge - especially if they are leaders on the ASN) and younger attendings (who understand the culture better and may have experience in point of care ultrasound and other newer skills like onconephrology) to teach you.

just a few things to look out for.
Thank you, I appreciate the thoughtful response.
 
I think the best advice as someone who has gone through fellowship and much more in the real world, is to temper your expectations and expect a lot of pain and failure in private practice. You guys are all smart enough to know that a specialty at its current state, with no barrier to entry, will have serious financial consequences to pay down the road. A quick read through SDN will highlight those issues. I know how programs will promise you the world and make it seem like their grads are doing amazing. All lies and half-truths. Just think about it, if neph grads were doing that well would programs have trouble filling spots? Their is no free lunch in this world and you guys know better. Make sure if years down the road you realize financially it was trap and wasted your time, there is no shock or regret.
 
Thank you, I appreciate the thoughtful response.
yes well my whole schitck on SDN here is to not to be the anti-Nephrology person, but to be the "anti-don't take a cold call if you didnt match into PCCM or cardiology from Nephrology programs and be miserable" and the "anti-don't think you care get rich quick in nephrology without connections" poster.
 
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yes well my whole schitck on SDN here is to not to be the anti-Nephrology person, but to be the "anti-don't take a cold call if you didnt match into PCCM or cardiology from Nephrology programs and be miserable" and the "anti-don't think you care get rich quick in nephrology without connections" poster.
Well, I didn't switch careers to do nephrology for the money. I did it because I was passionate about working with dialysis patients and I have a specific niche I can build in nephrology, so I don't think I fit either of those categories you speak of.
 
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Well, I didn't switch careers to do nephrology for the money. I did it because I was passionate about working with dialysis patients and I have a specific niche I can build in nephrology, so I don't think I fit either of those categories you speak of.
See that’s the thing . Can every nephrology Graduate fill that same niche ? Everyone can find his her niche . At the very least a successful subspecialty can find a niche for every graduate . More money or not .

I read a story about a physician from Iowa who graduated from university of Iowa and became a community nephrologist and went back to her home town Z she’s probably the only nephrologist there and making a big difference in her patients lives . That’s great !
But can everyone do that ? Can everyone be An academic nephrologist ? Nope

The same can be said for other subspecialties . But at least those other ones can resort to private practice and print money with their procedures (while also touching their patients lives ) while nephrologists without any luck end up as hospitalists .

This is the point that the academic nephrologists are missing . The SDN nephrology is not an attack them or the discipline of nephrology.

It’s a warning for those who do not plan to do axademics or have a niche carved out that Joining the private practice market without a clear plan in place will lead to tremendous loss in one’s career .

I read this Shemd post commenting how sad it was to read SDN about nephrology and how she found it fulfilling and enjoys her academic career now . Good for her and she made the right choice for her . But can every renal graduate be an academic doctor ? Will everyone have a stable steady renal job versus return to hospitalist ?

When was the last time any other IM sub specialist returned to hospitalist out of necessity rather than choice ?
 
I recently posted this in the nephrology is dead thread. Nephrologists going back to hospitalist is a common outcome. The unfortunate thing is, most were not warned of this as applicants.



The author above is a nephrology recruiter for privates practice group. Since he interacts with fellows frequently, he has a good pulse
on what new graduates are thinking. Despite his best attempts to spin things in an optimistic fashion(to his financial incentive), he also makes several admissions which is very telling on the current state of the specialty:

1) "As has been previously documented in numerous articles and reports, the nephrology workforce has had a shortfall of physicians going into the specialty for several decades. Besides the usual explanations – low pay compared with other medical specialties, dealing with a complex and chronic disease, too much time between multiple offices, dialysis units and hospitals, and long hours – the fact is fewer residents are going into this specialty. "

this we have already talked about ad nauseam on this thread. No news here.

2) "Utilizing the Fellowship and Residency Electronic Interactive Database, which is managed by the AMA, it is evident that private practice in nephrology does not hold the same appeal as it did 10 years ago. The percentage of fellows completing training who chose who choose private practice has gone down substantially from 70.3% in 2011 to 45.9% in 2020"

This is another thing I have talked about. It's not that there are no nephrology jobs, there are plenty of nephrology jobs but you may be better off just taking a hospitalist position in the end. it's just that there so few that are lucrative enough to justify being underpaid x number of years to make partner for. Many grads take academic jobs and keep looking for the right one. A high percentage will just go back to hospitalist and call themselves fools for believing the falsehoods that their PDs sold them on.


3) "As a result, there will be more movement among physicians in the coming year. While this will be a positive step in fulfilling needs in the workforce, the shortage of nephrologists will continue until the specialty does more to attract residents into nephrology and, in addition, make stronger efforts to keep those who have trained in the specialty to stay in the profession. "

sad but true. ASN needs to do more to appeal to nephrologists to stay in nephrology. The specialty just isn't worth doing financially for this generation.
 
ASN needs to do more to appeal to nephrologists to stay in nephrology. The specialty just isn't worth doing financially for this generation.

ASN don't care. They don't have any skin in the game in the private practice market. The are leaders of the field, innovators in research, and lead from their ivory academic towers. That's not a bad thing. But they don't have to experience first hand about the horrors of the private practice market so they don't need to do anything at all. As long as the top programs fill their programs with fellows to do night call and help them with research, they are content.

Academic Nephrology = great career. on par with other academic subspecialties. not the most money in the world but that's not everyone's main priority in life. therefore, whenever i see an academic nephrologist say SDN bashs nephrology, i'm wondering if he/she actually read all the posts or not.
 
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Any word from Vandy? Some of these places are taking awhile to send out invites.
 
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