Need help deciding: OSU vs. Jefferson vs. Temple

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wanderer100 said:
I agree with this. Another myth propagating on SDN is that undergraduate school doesn't matter for med school admissions, yet if you talk to just about anyone that went to an unknown undergrad that went through the process they'll tell you that their undergrad name did put them at a disadvantage. Maybe the same doesn't apply to residency applications (and I can see why it wouldn't, considering the relatively small number of med schools out there), but I'm skeptical of what I see spread around on SDN.

And I agree with your last sentence as well. The higher ranked schools I interviewed at blow the lower ranked schools out of the water in terms of resources, opportunities, etc.
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umm, as a someone coming from a school with a triple digit USNews ranking, this is certainly news to me.
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WingedOx said:
umm, as a someone coming from a school with a triple digit USNews ranking, this is certainly news to me.
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You've been here a few months and already drinking the kool-aid? :rolleyes:

Actually I wouldn't consider Jefferson as one of those elitist schools, but it definitely is the case at a lot of schools, especially for marginal applicants.
 
wanderer100 said:
You've been here a few months and already drinking the kool-aid? :rolleyes:

Actually I wouldn't consider Jefferson as one of those elitist schools, but it definitely is the case at a lot of schools, especially for marginal applicants.
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I've been on this site since 2005 thank you very much. This alt was created to re-set my anonymity since pretty much everyone at Jeff could pick me out from my old username if they wanted.

/and as someone who has now been through both the MS and PG admissions processes I'd say my advice carries a little more weight than yours. :rolleyes:
 
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WingedOx said:
I've been on this site since 2005 thank you very much. This alt was created to re-set my anonymity since pretty much everyone at Jeff could pick me out from my old username if they wanted.

/and as someone who has now been through both the MS and PG admissions processes I'd say my advice carries a little more weight than yours. :rolleyes:
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I've also noticed that you are a contrarian on these forums, and like to argue about a lot of points. But based on your appeal to authority you can make any claim you want because I'm 4 years behind you. :rolleyes:

Whatever it doesn't change the fact about your undergrad making a difference in the MS admissions process. This is based on the kinds of questions I, and my colleagues, have been asked, as well as what I've heard by listening to random deans'/directors' speeches and so on.
 
wanderer100 said:
I've also noticed that you are a contrarian on these forums, and like to argue about a lot of points. But based on your appeal to authority you can make any claim you want because I'm 4 years behind you. :rolleyes:
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fun how that works out doesn't it...
Whatever it doesn't change the fact about your undergrad making a difference in the MS admissions process. This is based on the kinds of questions I, and my colleagues, have been asked, as well as what I've heard by listening to random deans'/directors' speeches and so on.
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...well have fun with that. either way, the topic of the thread was answered well into last month.
 
shaggy alfresco said:
http://medicine.osu.edu/news/archive/2009/08/31/2009-match-day-results.aspx
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=6516732&postcount=102
http://www.temple.edu/medicine/education/documents/MATCH2009-SPECIALTY.pdf
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despite liking to argue with people here (something I don't dispute), you'll find pretty much universal opinion of those who have been through the residency interview process that while match lists aren't meaningless, they ARE meaningless for pre-meds trying to decide between schools. For one, most people can only analyze the quality of the list in their own specialty (I couldn't tell you a good Gen Surg program from a bad one for example... and even "name" programs might have awful training or community programs may be very good in a particular specialty). The list from Jeff is 3 years old, and in my chosen specialty, the list looks very different from the 2009 and 2010 list...

as said before the schools are all pretty much on equal footing. The general reputation of schools in Philly is Penn>>>Jeff>Temple>>Drexel>>>PCOM. In terms of hospitals: Penn>Jeff>>Temple>>>HUH.

If I had to choose for you, I'd say if you're a PA resident: Temple>OSU>Jeff
If OOS: OSU>Jeff>Temple.
 
WingedOx said:
despite liking to argue with people here (something I don't dispute), you'll find pretty much universal opinion of those who have been through the residency interview process that while match lists aren't meaningless, they ARE meaningless for pre-meds trying to decide between schools. For one, most people can only analyze the quality of the list in their own specialty (I couldn't tell you a good Gen Surg program from a bad one for example... and even "name" programs might have awful training or community programs may be very good in a particular specialty). The list from Jeff is 3 years old, and in my chosen specialty, the list looks very different from the 2009 and 2010 list...

as said before the schools are all pretty much on equal footing. The general reputation of schools in Philly is Penn>>>Jeff>Temple>>Drexel>>>PCOM. In terms of hospitals: Penn>Jeff>>Temple>>>HUH.

If I had to choose for you, I'd say if you're a PA resident: Temple>OSU>Jeff
If OOS: OSU>Jeff>Temple.
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I posted as as someone earlier mentioned it may matter and the top match lists are better. I don't know how to read these so I could use the help.
 
shaggy alfresco said:
I posted as as someone earlier mentioned it may matter and the top match lists are better. I don't know how to read these so I could use the help.
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yeah, the best you're going to get is a lot of speculation...

...though I'm now realizing I've met a number of people on all 3 match lists on the interview trail this year.
 
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Also, why would you say Temple over Jeff for IS? IS tuition for Temple isn't really much different from Jeff.
 
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Geekchick921 said:
I don't have the papers I got from interviewing with me, but IIRC there is less than $5k/year difference between the two.

Jeff is $46003 this year. http://www.jefferson.edu/registrar/tuition.cfm
Temple is $43654 this year. http://www.temple.edu/cashops/about/tuitionrates.htm

Pretty negligible, but I got the impression from my interviews there that Temple was also more likely to give a more generous financial aide package. JMHO, there.
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wow... IS at temple is more than I paid for my first year at jeff (actually tuition didn't get that high til my 3rd year.

hmm, yeah, in that case it's a close call. I have some strong opinions about Jefferson and the way this place is run, but they're not shared by the entire student body.
 
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Geekchick921 said:
I don't have the papers I got from interviewing with me, but IIRC there is less than $5k/year difference between the two.

Jeff is $46003 this year. http://www.jefferson.edu/registrar/tuition.cfm
Temple is $43654 this year. http://www.temple.edu/cashops/about/tuitionrates.htm

Pretty negligible, but I got the impression from my interviews there that Temple was also more likely to give a more generous financial aide package. JMHO, there.
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It seems that Temple gives decent merit aid (up to 20k a year), but it sounded like it runs out pretty quickly. So it's generous for the high stats people. Not so generous for others.
 
Ah it's merit instead of need based (I wouldn't qualify for the former).

The average debt at Temple is 180kish, and the average at Jeff is 160kish. So I don't think either place particularly seems to give a lot of aid overall. OSU's average is 140kish, but it's also about 30k cheaper for students over four years, so that seems to be due to simply the lower COA rather than merit or financial aid.

This is of course assuming roughly equal number of people at each school take loans and one doesn't have more than average number of people whose parents pay their tuition or something.

I have a below average GPA and only slightly above average MCAT for temple/Jeff (congrats on both of those things btw GeekChick, I'm sure you'll get some good $$), so I am not expecting any merit aid/scholarships at any of the three. My parents aren't well off, so I may qualify for need based, but I'm not sure how much/any.
 
average debt is as useless as a match list to an individual applicant. You have to go and calculate YOUR debt and what it will cost yourself. There are a lot of very rich people here to skew those numbers.
 
WingedOx said:
average debt is as useless as a match list to an individual applicant. You have to go and calculate YOUR debt and what it will cost yourself. There are a lot of very rich people here to skew those numbers.
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While that's true theoretically, wouldn't it average out amongst so many students unless one school just happens to have a significantly larger % of kids with rich parents?

Anecdotally, many of the kids (at all schools) I met on the interview trail had both parents as doctors, etc.
 
WingedOx said:
the residency interview process that while match lists aren't meaningless, they ARE meaningless for pre-meds trying to decide between schools. For one, most people can only analyze the quality of the list in their own specialty (I couldn't tell you a good Gen Surg program from a bad one for example... and even "name" programs might have awful training or community programs may be very good in a particular specialty).
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Yea, I mean I would never have heard of Barrow Neurological Institute if I hadn't been browsing the NS forums...there is no way for most pre-meds to know how highly that is regarded, for example.

One thing that a med student friend of mine said (and he placed match lists as low priority), is if you are going to look at match lists, look at the IM and G-Surg lists and compare the institutions that they matched at. Since most schools have large numbers going into IM (especially) and G-Surg, you can kind of tell the type of places they are matching at. It might be more significant than looking at that one integrated plastics match and drawing any conclusions.

I, of course, have no clue which IM or G-Surg programs are good, and I don't think I'll make a decision on this at all, but for intellectual curiosity, what do you guys think?
 
shaggy alfresco said:
Yea, I mean I would never have heard of Barrow Neurological Institute if I hadn't been browsing the NS forums...there is no way for most pre-meds to know how highly that is regarded, for example.

One thing that a med student friend of mine said (and he placed match lists as low priority), is if you are going to look at match lists, look at the IM and G-Surg lists and compare the institutions that they matched at. Since most schools have large numbers going into IM (especially) and G-Surg, you can kind of tell the type of places they are matching at. It might be more significant than looking at that one integrated plastics match and drawing any conclusions.

I, of course, have no clue which IM or G-Surg programs are good, and I don't think I'll make a decision on this at all, but for intellectual curiosity, what do you guys think?
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What were the things that your med student friend found of high priority for him?
 
stevo111 said:
What were the things that your med student friend found of high priority for him?
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For picking a school, he advised, in order from most to least important:

  1. Cost
  2. Clinical Years (e.g electives, flexibility of scheduling, how are they graded)
  3. Non cut-throat atmosphere first two years (e.g, P/F or H/P/F but avoid H/HP/P/LP/F)
  4. A wide variety of residencies associated with your school - in many cases residencies do tend to favor their own, and if you have wide variety of choices, you can increase your chance of matching (e.g, In case you want to do X but maybe you are less than competitive....if you don't have a home program you could be at a disadvantage, whereas you can personally get to know the people in your home school and impress them and have a relationship, and so you have an existing 'in' already). This is especially important since most med students change their minds, and it's nice to have a 'home' department in the specialty you eventually become interested in (e.g, the wider the options for residencies and fellowships at your home place, the better)
  5. Match List (and ranking) - Look for IM and G-Surg placements and where, esp. important to see # of good programs outside of geographical location...don't look at number of derm/neurosurg/ENT for a particular year....a good portion of people go into IM and G-Surg at virtually every school so you can make a better determination regarding the 'typical' student and where they go. Also don't just look at the 'name' of a school, try to find out if that school is good for that particular program...once you narrow your school choices, go through and try to find out through the specialty boards how that particular program is rated (e.g, BNI is freaking amazing for N-surg, perhaps more than the big names people have 'heard of')
  6. At least a few weeks (e.g more than two) to study for Step I
  7. Research Opportunities (he wants to do basic science, I prefer clinical but he thinks most med schools have plenty of opportunities if you're really into it)
  8. Quality of facilities for 1st/2nd year (e.g library, study spaces, good stuff). He says he didn't notice or care after the first month. Only a factor if it's ridiculous one way or another (e.g on an island where the electricity may go out or the library seats 20 people for a class of 600)

Anyway, these were his opinions. I'm a lowly pre-med, and unfortunately there is so little 'concrete' information that you kind of have to judge a lot of semi-nebulous qualities.
 
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I'd pick Jeff in a heartbeat.

First of all, I don't think theres a major difference between any of these schools in terms of what interviews you will get for residency. So, for that reason, I think staying in Philly makes more sense than OSU, since it seems like you want to be close to your family.

So, between Temple, and Jeff, it sounds like money is pretty similar. Jeff is a WAY more conveniently located area. Taking the subway to temple is kind of a pain, and its a pretty nasty subway ride (stinks like piss and vomit ALWAYS). You could drive, but then you need to pay for parking (very expensive in philly). Jeff is in one of the best parts of center city, and you could live anywhere in the city and get there pretty easily.

Jeff has some very strong departments. It's ortho is the best in Philly (better than Penn). Its rads department is amongst the strongest in the country. Neuro and Nsurg are very solid too. I can't speak much for Temple (other than knowing its trauma is awesome, because of all the insane crime in the region). But I can't see any reason to pick Temple over Jeff.
 
cowme said:
I'd pick Jeff in a heartbeat.

First of all, I don't think theres a major difference between any of these schools in terms of what interviews you will get for residency. So, for that reason, I think staying in Philly makes more sense than OSU, since it seems like you want to be close to your family.

So, between Temple, and Jeff, it sounds like money is pretty similar. Jeff is a WAY more conveniently located area. Taking the subway to temple is kind of a pain, and its a pretty nasty subway ride (stinks like piss and vomit ALWAYS). You could drive, but then you need to pay for parking (very expensive in philly). Jeff is in one of the best parts of center city, and you could live anywhere in the city and get there pretty easily.

Jeff has some very strong departments. It's ortho is the best in Philly (better than Penn). Its rads department is amongst the strongest in the country. Neuro and Nsurg are very solid too. I can't speak much for Temple (other than knowing its trauma is awesome, because of all the insane crime in the region). But I can't see any reason to pick Temple over Jeff.
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I actually like the BSL, and use it a lot to go up to Einstein. The subway beats driving on Broad Street nearly every time. It's the MFL and trolleys that have that fresh homeless piss smell that defines Philly transit. I think the added width of the cars makes a huge difference in in the claustrophobia department too.

While I don't deny that it's a lot more convenient to be in Washington West where Jeff is located, commuting in and out of here is a pain in the ass, and about half your 3rd year rotations will be outside of Jefferson, either at Einstein/Methodist, or farther away in Delaware.

I'll also agree that Jeff has some awesome departments. Ophtho is obvious because of Wills Eye. Ortho is amazing here (lots of MLB and NFL players come to Jeff from across the country). Neuro is solid with the dedicated hospital, and Family Med is probably the best program on the East Coast.
 
cowme said:
I'd pick Jeff in a heartbeat.

First of all, I don't think theres a major difference between any of these schools in terms of what interviews you will get for residency. So, for that reason, I think staying in Philly makes more sense than OSU, since it seems like you want to be close to your family.

So, between Temple, and Jeff, it sounds like money is pretty similar. Jeff is a WAY more conveniently located area. Taking the subway to temple is kind of a pain, and its a pretty nasty subway ride (stinks like piss and vomit ALWAYS). You could drive, but then you need to pay for parking (very expensive in philly). Jeff is in one of the best parts of center city, and you could live anywhere in the city and get there pretty easily.

Jeff has some very strong departments. It's ortho is the best in Philly (better than Penn). Its rads department is amongst the strongest in the country. Neuro and Nsurg are very solid too. I can't speak much for Temple (other than knowing its trauma is awesome, because of all the insane crime in the region). But I can't see any reason to pick Temple over Jeff.
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I think this is the crux of the question being asked in this thread, and I agree with cowme. OSU is more prestigous than Jeff and Temple, but probably not so much that it will get you more interviews than on-paper-identical applicants from Temple or Jeff. At then end of the day, the USNWR rank isn't doing you any favors unless you're in the top 10-ish.

Yeah, the environment/mentorship/resources MAY be better at higher ranked schools, but your comfort and happiness will trump that any day. The match process is HEAVILY weighted toward individual performance, so just go to philly.
 
I think since in my heart I do want to stay near my family, that will win out.

I'm a non-trad and been away from my family for many years and considering my dad's health, it'd be nice to be back close to them and 10 minutes away, if for nothing else than just to have that for as long as possible. It's hard to put a price on that type of psychological well being...but still, the debt is a huge deal and unless there turns out to be a massive difference in debt via financial aid packages (which I doubt), I think I'll stay in Philly. If it turns out I have to work slightly harder for the same opportunities, so be it and maybe this will be my motivation.

Sad because I really did love OSU and it's got fantastic opportunities, especially research wise. Plus, OSU on football weekends = epic. It's a fantastic school.

I thank everyone for their help and opinions. They are very much appreciated.
 
shaggy alfresco said:
I think since in my heart I do want to stay near my family, that will win out.

I'm a non-trad and been away from my family for many years and considering my dad's health, it'd be nice to be back close to them and 10 minutes away, if for nothing else than just to have that for as long as possible. It's hard to put a price on that type of psychological well being...but still, the debt is a huge deal and unless there turns out to be a massive difference in debt via financial aid packages (which I doubt), I think I'll stay in Philly. If it turns out I have to work slightly harder for the same opportunities, so be it and maybe this will be my motivation.

Sad because I really did love OSU and it's got fantastic opportunities, especially research wise. Plus, OSU on football weekends = epic. It's a fantastic school.

I thank everyone for their help and opinions. They are very much appreciated.
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Picking a med school is real tough. For undergrad, I had this epiphany about where I should go to college, and there was no doubt in my mind. But for med school, I've basically narrowed down my schools to one which is the best school for me, and one where I'll be the happiest, and it's gonna be difficult to pick between them! Good job sticking to what is important for you, I truly believe that happiness is one of the biggest factors in picking a school, and that it will trump opportunities and rank because you'll work harder, smarter, and better when you're happy. That's just my personal belief though and I think it does have limitations depending on the school. The difference between Jeff, Temple, and OSU though is small enough that I think you won't suffer any ramifications for picking any of them!
 
Theres a good chance that rotations in pittsburgh via the Western Pennsylvania alleghany health system will not be available for temple students come your 3rd or fourth year. West-penn will likely be opening its own medical school in the next year or two and its a small system, so not their students will boot out the temple students.
 
shaggy alfresco said:
I think since in my heart I do want to stay near my family, that will win out.

I'm a non-trad and been away from my family for many years and considering my dad's health, it'd be nice to be back close to them and 10 minutes away, if for nothing else than just to have that for as long as possible. It's hard to put a price on that type of psychological well being...but still, the debt is a huge deal and unless there turns out to be a massive difference in debt via financial aid packages (which I doubt), I think I'll stay in Philly. If it turns out I have to work slightly harder for the same opportunities, so be it and maybe this will be my motivation.

Sad because I really did love OSU and it's got fantastic opportunities, especially research wise. Plus, OSU on football weekends = epic. It's a fantastic school.

I thank everyone for their help and opinions. They are very much appreciated.
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Ironic because I'm in a similar pickle with my rank list (due in two days). Programs in Ohio and Georgia are closer to home and my comfort zone, but there are some other programs in other regions that I really loved but know no one.
 
DoctwoB said:
Theres a good chance that rotations in pittsburgh via the Western Pennsylvania alleghany health system will not be available for temple students come your 3rd or fourth year. West-penn will likely be opening its own medical school in the next year or two and its a small system, so not their students will boot out the temple students.
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Assuming they open at the earliest, which would be 2012, I would still be at least one year ahead of their first class, so unless they decide not to have students rotating for a year, I would think they'd be available? And they aren't even up on the LCME website for accreditation yet, so I'm thinking it might be 2+ years for it to get going.

WingedOx said:
Ironic because I'm in a similar pickle with my rank list (due in two days). Programs in Ohio and Georgia are closer to home and my comfort zone, but there are some other programs in other regions that I really loved but know no one.
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That's great - may I ask what field you're choosing?
 
DoctwoB said:
Theres a good chance that rotations in pittsburgh via the Western Pennsylvania alleghany health system will not be available for temple students come your 3rd or fourth year. West-penn will likely be opening its own medical school in the next year or two and its a small system, so not their students will boot out the temple students.
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As far as I know, rotations WILL be available at the West Penn Allegheny Health System, but they will be conducted at Allegheny General Hospital and NOT West Penn. I am attending Temple as an M1 next year and am going to Pittsburgh for years 3 and 4 and spoke with the clinical campuses coordinator. She said that all rotations will be at AGH except for OB-GYN which will be at West Penn.

She also said there will be a reception for interested students at AGH in early April, so anyone interested in Temple's AGH program may want to attend and ask those questions.

Hope that clears things up.
 
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