Heliums said:
I would like to point out if you look at some population pyramids of different countries where women are provided medical birthing care the survival rate is higher than countries which do not provided this type of care. Medical birthing care has increased the life expectancy of women. That is a fact period, not even debatable. Perhaps doctors became tried of their wives and infants dying during childbirth and wanted to do something to improve their survival rate. Yes, medicine was male dominated at the time certain protocols were instrumented but how can you say that these male doctors did not have a genuine interest in saving the lives of women. Please note that male doctors have wives and daughters which I am sure they want to survive during childbirth. They were not trying to control women they just wanted the women that they loved to live and not die during childbirth.
Hmm, Heliums, don't you think you are being a
little naive when you claim that male doctors excluded women from ever becoming doctors themselves, because they loved their own women and daughters so much? Don't forget that these
caring males have been torturing, raping and even murdering their own daughters, sisters and mothers for centuries and in a lot of countries they still do!
You point out that countries who do not provide medical birthing care have a lower survival rate than countries who do provide this type of care.
This doesn't mean that the lack of medical interference during childbirth is the cause of the higher mortality rate in these countries. These countries you are talking about are underdeveloped nations where many women are underfed, have a lack of hygene and are living in bad conditions. These factors are likely to be the cause of the lower survival rate than in countries where medical birthing care is common. In fact, in industrial countries that use midwives as primary birth care providers (Japan, the Netherlands, Sweden, Holland, among others), the infant mortality rate is much, much lower than in countries that use doctors and physicians as primary birth care providers (as in the US).
"Because prenatal care, better nutrition, antibiotics, and blood transfusions for maternal hemorrhage have become widely available over the last few decades, the infant mortality rate has dropped. This decrease was paralleled by a higher proportion of mothers who gave birth in hospitals, leading to the assumption that birth in the hospital attended by a physician was safer than home birth for all mothers. However, no study has ever supported this assumption . In fact, each of the alternative birth options in this book is usually safer than conventional hospital birth. In the alternative birth setting, the mother is at a reduced risk (and often at no risk) of iatrogenic (doctor-caused) medical complications and nosocomial (hospital-caused) infection and other problems in childbearing. . . .
Though hospital birth is safe for most mothers, medical studies have shown that there is an increased risk of maternal and infant morbidity in the hospital as compared to home. The risk of infection to mother and baby is greater in the hospital (where there are more pathogenic organisms) than at home. Varying with the hospital, the mother and baby are also at higher risk of iatrogenic complications. These include such problems as fetal distress from overuse of oxytocic drugs to stimulate labor and from pain-relief medication, infections from too many vaginal exams, and unnecessary surgical birth."
from Alternative Birth: The Complete Guide, Carl Jones
"It is often claimed that because far fewer mothers die around the time of birth than, say, 60 years ago when most mothers had their babies at home, hospital birth must be the cause of this decline in the maternal and perinatal mortality rates. But the fact that two things happen at the same time does not mean that one causes the other.
Nor should we compare statistics of home births in different historical periods. Many things change, including women's health, their access to contraceptives, and their socioeconomic condition. These things have a profound effect on perinatal mortality. As the standard of living rises, fewer babies die at birth in every country, whether or not home births are allowed, and whatever the obstetric practice is."
from Homebirth, Sheila Kitzinger
"One of the greatest myths perpetuated by the medical system is that hospitals are the safest place to give birth. Stories abound of women dying in childbirth before the advent of modern hospitals. And yet, few people realize that women were not dying due to the fact that childbirth is inherently dangerous, but rather because of the living conditions at that time. Poor women were generally underfed and overworked during pregnancy,.."(Laura Shanley)
Personally, I've had more laughing induced tears while reading these threads in the past 3 weeks than I've had in a year! Janice/Asherah/bored MD getting your kicks at our expense.. great job! We bought into it. Thought you were for real. You fooled us...100+ times!!! 
