Men in OB/GYN

[bustbones26]

I have noticed quite abit of post around her pertaining to men going into the field of OB/GYN. Now I have to say, I myself have no desire to go into OB/GYN but would like to discuss this issue a bit. Oddly enough, for some reason, in my education, I have ended up working with many male OB/GYN's and this is what I have come up with:

1) Guys that go into OB/GYN are all over the surgical aspect of the profession! For some reason, I have noticed that male OB/GYN's are happiest in the OR and tend to be great surgeons, most are very anal and become perfectionist while doing gyn surgery! Now please, don't anybody take this the wrong way, I am not saying that women gynecologist suck at surgery, I am just noting that male gynecologist are fascinated by gyn surgery and seem to enjoy it more than any other aspect of their job!

2) Gyn Oncology!!! For some reason, everybody I talk to has some guy friend that is now doing his fellowship in gyn oncology. I am not sure why gyn oncology attracts men, but for some reason, it does.

3) Infertility medicine!! Many guys I know that are a part of this profession are "family men". They have wives, they have children, they live for their family. And many of them, as it turns out, had to seek professional help themselves in the area of fertiliity medicine.

I suppose to say that any man who is a gynecologist is a pervert is very easy to say!! But consider this, in medicine in general, there are many sensitive exams that must be performed. There are many occassions in medicine where a patient has to dis-robe. So I guess what my opinion is this, forget gynecology, if you truely are a pervert, you don't belong in any branch of medicine!!!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Global Disrobal]

very well stated!

 

[Janice]

That only verifies what time of day it is. Like a wake up call.

 

[DrMom]

Because different women have different preferences (or no preference at all) there will always be a place for men in OB/GYN, whether that be a general OB/GYN pracitice or a sub-specialty.

 

[Sweet Tea]

Originally posted by DrMom
Because different women have different preferences (or no preference at all) there will always be a place for men in OB/GYN, whether that be a general OB/GYN pracitice or a sub-specialty.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; talent and ability in this and all other medical fields is independent of sex.

[/off soapbox]

 

[NRAI2001]

Yea I dont see how the sex of ur doctor really matters.

 

[Janice]

If the sex of a doctor did not matter, then women would not have such a high priority for a female gyn doctor. The fact that a female doctor is just that, "female", is only one in several reasons why the sex of a doctor (gyn) matters.

 

[NRAI2001]

I know that to a lot of people it does matter, but I don't see why it should matter. A male doctor is a medical professional, not some pervert off the street. I dont see any reason for a female to feel uncomfortable infront of a male doctor. THere are usually nurses accompanying the doctor as well, so there are other females in the room.

 

[Janice]

The reason you don't see why it should matter is because, you are not a woman and don't have the mind of a woman. Also, nurses are not always present, as some male doctors with their own private practices, do not use a nurse. Last but not least, it doesn't matter how professional a male doctor is or what kind of degree he holds, etc., he is still a male and therefore not the average woman's preference. Nothing changes a woman's preferences about the sex of the doctor she prefers. In short, it's all about her preferences, and not about his professionalism or credentials. It's about who she FEELS most comfortable with, because that is who she trust the most. All the so-called professionalism and credentials in the world cannot over-ride that. A lot of women simply don't trust male doctors for that type of exam, and there are a million and one reasons. I need not name them. Count them for yourself.

 

[MacGyver]

thats all fine and good janice, which explains why males are better urologists than females.

 

[DrMom]

Originally posted by Janice
If the sex of a doctor did not matter, then women would not have such a high priority for a female gyn doctor. The fact that a female doctor is just that, "female", is only one in several reasons why the sex of a doctor (gyn) matters.

You keep missing the fact that many women don't have a priority of having a female gyn, and a decent chunk actually prefer men. Most women put much more priority on the competency of their physician than the gender.

 

[Janice]

Even though most or all women want their doctors to be skilled, etc., the majority of those women still "prefer" a female doctor to a male doctor for intimate exams.

 

[VentdependenT]

Just to add to gender selection in choosing a physician I'll throw something into the mix. If given the choice between urologists, I'd choose a male in accordance with the same reasoning as posted above. I do believe urology programs consist of mainly males but I may be off on this one.

 

[DrMom]

Originally posted by Janice
Even though most or all women want their doctors to be skilled, etc., the majority of those women still "prefer" a female doctor to a male doctor for intimate exams.

Not according to anything I've seen. Here's an example:
http://www.acog.org/from_home/publications/press_releases/nr05-31-02-1.cfm

 

[jashanley]

Janice,
Before you make blanketed statements, please find a source to back up your statement. Medicine is a field based on the medical literature and I, as a physican, like dealing with concrete facts and using studies to make my decisions. I don't speak for all but most physicians I work with agree with me. I have found that very few of the patients I have delivered or interacted with either in the Emergency department, in my clinic or on my ob/gyn rotation wanted only a woman to be their doctor. In two years I have only had one patient state she wanted only a female doctor, and it was based on her religion. Most of my clinic patients state they would rather stay in my clinic for a pap smear than have to make another appointment, and they all said they felt comfortable with me as their doctor.
Especially the delivering patients, they could care less who delivered their baby, they just wanted the pain to end and their baby to be fine.

 

[Sweet Tea]

The reason you don't see why it should matter is because, you are not a woman and don't have the mind of a woman.

Janice, please do not presume to speak for all women. Me, and millions of other women like me, would much rather have a skilled, competent, understanding gynecologist than a female gynecologist. So having a female gyn is important for you-- great for you. See only women. That's fine. But don't make blanket statements based on your preferences. I've been to male and female gynecologists, and I have to say that the only unpleasant exam I had was with a female doctor. So please don't assume that all women feel the way you do.

 

[Sweet Tea]

In short, it's all about her preferences...

This part of your statement I agree with. Just realize that not all women prefer their doctor to be one sex or the other, and because of that there will always be a place for me in ob/gyn.

 

[dkwyler94]

As a male who intends on going into OB/GYN, I always find these discussions interesting. Unfortunatly I can't remember the place I read the study, but it indicated 20% of women prefer a male OB/GYN, 30% a women, and 50% don't care. This would roughly compare to what I experienced during my OB/GYN rotation and what I have been told by my female friends. It is also comparible to the stats on the ACOG site. Some female friends have indicated they choose not go to a female as they don't feel they are as emathetic. An attitude of "We all go through this."
I would agree with the statement in regards to myself about the surgical side of the field of being more appeal to men. I anticipate focusing more on the surgical side and will consider a fellowship in Urogyn or Gyn-Onc.
Lastly, of all the male OB/GYN's with whom I have spoken, none have a shortage of patients. A few indicated it may take a few more months to build up your practice, but as fewer and fewer people are going into OB/GYN and fewer FP's do OB, there is becoming more of a shortage in several areas. A male OB/GYN will still be able to have as busy of a practice as he chooses.
David

 

[ruby_1]

I completed my first year in ob/gyn in a program where all but two of the residents were female. It was actually rather rare to have a patient request a female physician. Ironically, I got rejected more as a medical student but rarely as a resident. I guess there is something about the MD that changes people's mind. At any rate, I always told myself that if you are a good physician, then people will come. Sure, some women do prefer only being with female physicians. But many just want good care. I actually got some good feedback and certain patients requested me. Ironically, I tried to be more gentle with my exams especially after seeing how rough some women gyns seemed to be. I think if you are competent, listen to your patient, and provide the best care you can, then you will always have patient ready to see you.

 

[drdrtoledo]

Thanks for shedding some light on the issue everyone . I have seriously considered OB/GYN. I would hate to have given up on it out of fear of not having patients to see. I almost got scared away. Now if only we could do something about the darn malpractice.....

 

[Leukocyte]

Male OB/GYN doctors are perverts?!

Come-on. Why would any self-respecting pervert would want to see bloody, smelly, fungating, crab infested, distorted, deformed .....?

(Please note humor)

 

[baya]

A story to illustrate why some women prefer female OB/GYNs:

NOTE: I'm not saying this story illustrates logic - just emotion.

A young women, who to date, had coincidentally had only female physicians do her pelvic exam, was asked if she minded having a male OB/GYN.

She said "That's fine."

When the doctor met with her, he did not met her eyes, or smile.
After examing her vagina, he examined her rectum, without warning.
(This is not usually part of a pelvic exam, in my experience.)

This being her one and only experience with a male OB/GYN, she's unlikely to go for a repeat performance.

Of course, this story could be coincidence, and it certainly says nothing about other male OB/GYNs. But if this happened to you, wouldn't you try to minimize the chances of it happening again?

 

[gree0411]

A story to illustrate why some women prefer male OB/GYNs:

NOTE: I'm not saying this story illustrates logic - just emotion.

A young women, who to date, had coincidentally had only male physicians do her pelvic exam, was asked if she minded having a female OB/GYN.

She said "That's fine."

When the doctor met with her, she did not meet her eyes, or smile.
After examing her vagina, she examined her rectum, without warning.
(This is not usually part of a pelvic exam, in my experience)

This being her one and only experience with a female OB/GYN, she's unlikely to go for a repeat performance.

Of course, this story could be coincidence, and it certainly says nothing about other female OB/GYNs. But if this happened to you, wouldn't you try to minimize the chances of it happening again?

 

[Leukocyte]

A story to illustrate why some women prefer female OB/GYNs:

.
After examing her vagina, he examined her rectum, without warning.
(This is not usually part of a pelvic exam, in my experience.)

Well, The rectal exam is part of a COMPLETE (Ideal) pelvic exam according to Medical Textbooks, ie. Bates. But most docs just do not do it.

And for those who only want female OBGYNs, how is a male OB different from a female OB who is lesbian (I have nothing againt lesbians). Would you be more comfortable with a female OB who might be Lesbian? I am asking because when I did my OB core, two of my attendings were openly Lesbian.

 

[tlew12778]

My first pelvic was done by a male internist (bc I didn't have a gyn yet) and I really didn't care at that point in my life. I mean, I was only 18 and it was just a routine check-up. When I wanted to go on the BCP he referred me to the same gyn that all the patients of that practice were referred to... this one happened to be a women. Ever since then I have had female gyns and I honestly do not think I would go back. Granted I cannot make such a generalised statement but my initial instinct is that I, myself, would prefer a woman just bc I feel like I woman can relate to my gynocological issues better. She knows what PMS, menstrual cramps, and yeast infections feel like. If I ever lost a baby, she might even know what that is like. She might have dealt with infertility as a woman, and she might know what labor pains and recovery from a delivery are like. This is not to say a male gyn will not know these things, but he will have learned them from other peoples' experiences and not his own.

For that reason, and that alone, I prefer women gynocologists. However, if I learned that I was infertile and was offered the chance to see the best RE in the country who might be male, I would not turn it down just bc I thought he wouldn't know what it would feel like to have eggs harvested or anything. But for regular routine care, I will stick with female gyns.

Just my $0.02.

 

[neilc]

i hear that reasoning a lot...."a female gyn knows what i am going through"...and, if that is your preference, fine. it is certainly your perogative.

that being said, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. if you had a brain tumor, would you only want to see a neurosurgeon that also suffered from a brain tumor? i think that you would agree that it is not neccessary to suffer from a disease in order to understand it, or empathize with those that do suffer from it.

basically, it is a sexist way of thinking, that is being justified by the "a woman understands" reply. if a man said that, he would quickly be accused of being a sexist. a doctor of any specialty should (in an ideal world) be chosen based upon qualifications, not gender, age, sexual orientation, etc...that being said, it is a free country, and all patients should see physicians who they are comfortable with.

 

[baya]

Well, The rectal exam is part of a COMPLETE (Ideal) pelvic exam according to Medical Textbooks, ie. Bates. But most docs just do not do it.

Given that most docs don't do it, ones that do ought to warn the patient and ask consent.

And for those who only want female OBGYNs, how is a male OB different from a female OB who is lesbian (I have nothing againt lesbians). Would you be more comfortable with a female OB who might be Lesbian? I am asking because when I did my OB core, two of my attendings were openly Lesbian.

A male OB is different from a female OB who is lesbian because he is male. It's not about sexual orientation, it's about empathy. Male OB/GYNS have the capacity to empathize just as much as female OB/GYNS, but in practice fewer seem to realize that capacity. I think it's easier to empathize when you've got the same equipment.

 

[tlew12778]

i think that you would agree that it is not neccessary to suffer from a disease in order to understand it, or empathize with those that do suffer from it.

Yes I agree, but empathizing is not the same as having first-hand experience. Obviously when you consider serious diseases like brain tumours, the situation changes. How many oncologists do you know that have survived a brain tumour and are still practicing to tell about it? That said, I do think that an oncologist that has had cancer or that has had a close family member that has had cancer will know (from first-hand experience) what his/her patient is going through or what his/her family is feeling (better than any book can teach).

basically, it is a sexist way of thinking, that is being justified by the "a woman understands" reply. if a man said that, he would quickly be accused of being a sexist. a doctor of any specialty should (in an ideal world) be chosen based upon qualifications, not gender, age, sexual orientation, etc...that being said, it is a free country, and all patients should see physicians who they are comfortable with.

OK so say you are a male with erectile problems (sorry I am trying not to get too graphic here but this is the best comparison I think)... would you go to a female doctor? Yes, I am sure she has already seen whatever problem it is you have, but can she really understand exactly what you feel at the precise moment when you know it's just not functioning properly? Granted, not all male doctors would know that either, but if the one you were seeing happened to have had the same problem ever, it would put you two on the same level of understanding somehow and that would probably make you feel more comfortable to an extent.

I don't think it's a sexist way of thinking honestly. I think it's practical. And I wouldn't accuse a male of sexism if he preferred seeing a male urologist for whatever problem he had. It's just a question of first-hand knowledge. This is the same as asking why girls have girls night out or the guys have guys night out.

Furthermore, as for judging a doctor based on his qualifications, I have met MANY doctors that are highly, highly qualified but have such terrible patient bedside manners that I would NEVER go to them. In fact, I once switched gyns bc of that... she was highly efficient, very well recommended, and the head of gyn at a very good women's hospital here, but she never took the time to talk to me and I hated that. Personally I base my dr choices not only on qualifications, but (in this case) also by gender and age (I would never go to a newly graduated Ob for instance... just not enough experience for me). I could care less about sexual orientation but if I were a transexual that wanted a sex-change operation I might care about that too).

 

[neilc]

first of all, bedside manner is included in what i consided qualifications. second, i would not hesitate to go to a female doctor for any problems. it is not a matter of having the same equipment at all. i want a good doctor, period. that includes education, experience in the field, bedside manner, knowledge of abilities and limitations, empathy, etc....it does not include gender, age, sexual orientation, etc...

agian, you are free to go to who you choose. i am not saying it is WRONG of you to prefer a female for whatever reason you want. it is an individual preference, certainly.

my opinion simply differs from yours as regards to what i think a patient should seek in a doctor. simply "having the same equipment" really gives you no automatic benefit. i really think it is usually a sensitivity issue (ie a female feels uncomfortable around a male doctor when discussing reproductive organs/issues, or vice versa with a male patient and female doctor). this is ok, too. but, lets call it that, instead of saying stuff like "a female is better qualified to do a pap smear because she has a vagina" or "she is a woman, so she understands my cramps better". hey, i have never had kidney stones either, but i can sure empathize with the pain! and i don't have to possess a vagina to understand that a pelvic examination is sensitive and uncomfortable, and that i need to be gentle, explain what i am doing, and try to make the situation as comfortable as possible. i don't have to have suffered through a flex sig to know that is uncomfortable too!

the fact is, many women feel that MEN are more empathetic with female problems. i have heard several women complain that the female docs tend to minimize symptoms, saying things like "its just some cramps, don't worry about it". well, they are uncomfortable and can be worrisome, and our job goes beyond identification of the process, and includes easing the patients mind! my point here is that there are doctors of both sexes in all specialties lacking empathy, and/or compassion. simply possesing the same reproductive organs is not going to make somebody more adept at understanding you and helping you, period. you could meet some jackass male doctor that had erectile dysfunction and still acts like a jerk, just as you could meet some crabby women ob/gyn with endometriosis that minimizes all of your complaints thinking they could not possibly be as bad as hers.

having a similar level of understanding and appreciation for a specific disease may help your doctor relate to you better. but, i don't think that it is neccesary to have this. you used erectile dysfunction as an example, so i will stick with that. would it help to have a doctor that suffered from that? i can agree with a maybe....but, who can say! and, i think that a properly informed and qualified (see above definition of qualified) doctor can provide excellent care regardless of whether they have also suffered from the same pathology.

in the end, we go to who we are comfortable with, for whatever reasons. i am not too worried about it, as a male going into ob/gyn, because the VAST majority of patients that i have had the privilege of working with have not seen my gender as an issue. certainly, it will come up sometime. i am not an idiot, i know that there are patients that will never walk into my office because i am a male, and i have no bitterness because of that reality. but, the fact is, there is a large, intelligent, well-informed population of females that want a doctor that cares for them professionally, with expertise and empathy, and they realize that these qualities can be found in physicians of both sexes.

 

[MoCookiess]

There is and always will be a place for men in OB/GYN, I'm not sure anyone who is rational would argue otherwise, but it sure is interesting to note the distribution of males in the subspecialties of OBGYN.

I guess I'm guilty of preferring a female GYN, when I first starting going to her I was young, and super scared of getting a pelvic exam. In hindsight, it wasn't a big deal at all, and it probably wouldn't have been any more traumatic had I chosen to go to a male doctor. On the other hand, some things were made much easier for me because she was a young, nice doctor that I could relate to. It's was much less scary for me to go on birth control pills when my doctor said to me, "Lots of the people you meet in college are also going to be on birth control. [Brand X] is one of the most popular for young women. I've been on [brand X] for years, so let's see how it goes for you." Not that a male couldn't prescribe birth control pills, or even that he wouldn't choose the exact same brand, but I think that the fact my doctor was not only someone I trusted, but someone that I could identify with made a HUGE difference in me feeling confortable with that whole process.

 

[GeddyLee]

Well, just to add here, I've talked to women before who said female OB/Gyns were not as gentle as the male OB/Gyns. To each their own. This was discussed ad nauseum a few months ago on this forum.

 

[PTCA]

What about breast examination? Many male physicians doing lots of these!
And rectals ? All sorts of docs do these all the time (like GI)
I think that this is all a mater learned behavior and prejudice
80% of ob/gyn docs in the UK are male
A 24year old friend of mine, studying in the US went to have her regular PAP test
Nurse ? ?and don?t you worry, we have a female gynecologist!?
My friend ?that?s nice ?, while thinking ?who cares, lady? I am not paranoid?

 

[ayndim]

What about breast examination? Many male physicians doing lots of these!
And rectals ? All sorts of docs do these all the time (like GI)
I think that this is all a mater learned behavior and prejudice
80% of ob/gyn docs in the UK are male
A 24year old friend of mine, studying in the US went to have her regular PAP test
Nurse ? ?and don?t you worry, we have a female gynecologist!?
My friend ?that?s nice ?, while thinking ?who cares, lady? I am not paranoid?

Funny because when I lived in the UK the nurses or midwives did the pelvic/paps not an ob. My gp had a nurse (not sure if she was a mw or not) who had her own room and she did all of them. She consulted a dr if there was a problem. In fact, in the UK most of the time unless you are high risk a midwife not an OB delivers the baby. The OBs do come in if there is a problem.

As for the female/male ob issue. The patient does have the right to decide her dr based on whatever preference she wants to. If it is gender that is her choice. With the women I know there is a pretty equal split among those who prefer female, male or don't care. So there should be plenty of patients for a male or female ob. In many cases it doesn't matter who your dr is as long as she/he is compassionate and competent. But there are women who have religious reasons, who have been sexually assualted or who just don't feel comfortable with a male ob and will refuse to have a male dr do an "intimate" exam. I think their wishes should be respected. Now I am off to study.

 

[EMRaiden]

Even though most or all women want their doctors to be skilled, etc., the majority of those women still "prefer" a female doctor to a male doctor for intimate exams.

Janice--

I have seen you post thousands of times re: this same topic and you always have the same arguement: That all women want to go to a female OB/GYN.

I was wondering if (in the months that this argument has been raging) you had come up with one shred/nugget/piece of evidence or fact to back you up... or is this based on your personal preference, which you are trying to force upon every female?

 

[PTCA]

Funny because when I lived in the UK the nurses or midwives did the pelvic/paps not an ob. My gp had a nurse (not sure if she was a mw or not) who had her own room and she did all of them. She consulted a dr if there was a problem. In fact, in the UK most of the time unless you are high risk a midwife not an OB delivers the baby. The OBs do come in if there is a problem.

As for the female/male ob issue. The patient does have the right to decide her dr based on whatever preference she wants to. If it is gender that is her choice. With the women I know there is a pretty equal split among those who prefer female, male or don't care. So there should be plenty of patients for a male or female ob. In many cases it doesn't matter who your dr is as long as she/he is compassionate and competent. But there are women who have religious reasons, who have been sexually assualted or who just don't feel comfortable with a male ob and will refuse to have a male dr do an "intimate" exam. I think their wishes should be respected. Now I am off to study.

Routine pelvics (like many other routine examinations) are performed by nurses mainly to reduce the cost (and this not always the case in the private sector). I don?t have any statistics in mind, but my impression is that nurses generally tend to be female in a most fields. During deliveries the doctor checks up on the patient regularly, not just when there is a problem. Again, this has nothing to do with the fem/male issue. I have no US experience, but in the NHS , a doctor is routinely required to monitor several deliveries simultaneously. But even when that is not the case, he might be doing paperwork or he might be checking up on other patients.
If OB docs spend perhaps 20h+ next to a delivering woman in the US , I imagine that this isn?t because they are female! I can only imagine that this would be a policy of some sort.
More over, there are a number of reasons why a GP shouldn?t do pelvics. One being that his nurse (midwife or not) was probably better at them
I don?t think that the same standards apply to a male OB-GYN doc
Concerning the second part, I am not at all sure that there is an even split between women. But again, I have no specific statistics in mind .my general feeling would be that a clear majority of women have no sex bias. Are there some who do? Certainly
Especially concerning religion, there is definitely sex bias. But, is this limited to the fem/male OB-GYN debate? There are men who refuse to be examined by female physicians as well. There are even parents who refuse any sort of examination of their daughters by a male pediatrician.
(BTW if you ask me, despite supporting the free choice of ones doctor, I think that the religious restrictions issue needs to be dealt with. the state and health institutions in general need to set their own rules regardless of religious rules.
What if a doctor of a specific religion is asked for next?)
I absolutely respect the wish of any woman who fears abuse, or feels uncomfortable to request a female OB-GYN doc. I never said that this right should cease to exist.
I realize that this emotion is real, but I do not accept that it is based on reality. I do maintain that the number of women with this attitude would be much smaller if there was a campaign to reassure women. I also think that this attitude should not be presupposed. I believe that by limiting the training-hiring of men in OB ?Gyn , the stereotype is being reinforced.

 

[vanelo]

And for those who only want female OBGYNs, how is a male OB different from a female OB who is lesbian (I have nothing againt lesbians). Would you be more comfortable with a female OB who might be Lesbian? I am asking because when I did my OB core, two of my attendings were openly Lesbian.

I would never go to a female OBGYN, ESPECIALLY if she is a lesbian. My vote is tgo the male ObG's..

My .02c

 

[asherah]

I am a woman and I prefer to have no gyn at all, unless I would have a real gynecological problem, I would choose a female gyn.
Offcourse amongst the female gyns there must be good ones and less good ones. You cannot really give your opinion about female gyns, if you have only seen one, if that was by coincidence a bad experience, it doenst mean that all female gyns are the same.

Offcourse the overall problem is the whole gyn mentality that needs to change.
I insist that those humiliating stirrups become forbidden in any doctorsroom, because that's really a disgusting invention of men, who never layed in it themselves and whatever woman who claims to not bother being submitted in the stirrups is a big lyer.

I am in favour of allowing only women in this industry, so they can start to think critically about this overcontrolling industry on women invented by men, where the sexistic male thoughts about women are still the fundaments in gynecology.

To those who are so heavily reacting to the women who are trying to free themselves from the gyn chains and who are doing a hard job to make other women conscious about this-you are only being so defiant, refusing to empathise because you cannot bear the fact that you have been raping women all your life in the name of goodness, or are about to do so.

To the women who support their own rapers, it's hurting me that you do not want to wake up and refuse to acknowlegde your own feelings, but instead adopt the rational arguments of doctors and let yourself be brainwashed,
I would say; follow your intuition, your body is healthy and there is no need to let yourself be 'checked' (read: raped) every year for unnessecary reasons.

 

[asherah]

the reason why you never would choose a female gyn, and especially not if she is lesbian, is because you are a heterosexual, I assume.

Here you actually admit that a gynecological exam is something sexual. It's sexual because your legs are spread wide open, which women naturally do when they are horny, and your most private sexual parts are being touched and penetrated. Only it's not a usual sexual experience, because you didn't came to have sex, allthough you will have sexual feelings as your body is forced to have them, and if you do not want these sexual feelings, especially because you are in a passive submissive position, you may feel raped and disgusted.

This is why you, as a heterosexual woman, does not want a female examining you overthere, especially if she is a lesbian, but the main thing why you do not mind to let a male gyn penetrating you in your submissive position, is because you uncounsciously think it's normal to be submissive towards a man.
So you don't mind experiencing sexual feelings being the submissive one, while the man is in the dominant role.

This is the only reason why you do not want to be examined by a woman, because you dont think it's ok to be sexually submissive towards a woman.

That is why I am against these practises, and why it is not ok that men can go on being the patriarch in this medical field and this is also one of the many reasons why women need to make changes in this area, so that these rapings are no longer accepted in society.

 

[asherah]

this is totally sexistic.
Women are brainwashed. They want female nurses and male ob's because they think it's more normal that a man has the technical expertise, the professionalism, the BRAINS to deliver their babies and women are better suited for the nursing role, as their brains, and technical expertise can never reach a level as high of a man, so they aren't suited for the godly role as obstetrician(note the acme of backwardness: women believe that men are better skilled to deliver their babies, while women only have been giving this gift from God to deliver babies on their own) .

Women who agree with how gynecology is today and think it's ok to be examined by a man in the way they still do it, is because these women do not have respect for themselves, that's why.

 

[ayndim]

I am a woman and I prefer to have no gyn at all, unless I would have a real gynecological problem, I would choose a female gyn.
Offcourse amongst the female gyns there must be good ones and less good ones. You cannot really give your opinion about female gyns, if you have only seen one, if that was by coincidence a bad experience, it doenst mean that all female gyns are the same.

Offcourse the overall problem is the whole gyn mentality that needs to change.
I insist that those humiliating stirrups become forbidden in any doctorsroom, because that's really a disgusting invention of men, who never layed in it themselves and whatever woman who claims to not bother being submitted in the stirrups is a big lyer.

I am in favour of allowing only women in this industry, so they can start to think critically about this overcontrolling industry on women invented by men, where the sexistic male thoughts about women are still the fundaments in gynecology.

To those who are so heavily reacting to the women who are trying to free themselves from the gyn chains and who are doing a hard job to make other women conscious about this-you are only being so defiant, refusing to empathise because you cannot bear the fact that you have been raping women all your life in the name of goodness, or are about to do so.

To the women who support their own rapers, it's hurting me that you do not want to wake up and refuse to acknowlegde your own feelings, but instead adopt the rational arguments of doctors and let yourself be brainwashed,
I would say; follow your intuition, your body is healthy and there is no need to let yourself be 'checked' (read: raped) every year for unnessecary reasons.

I don't feel like I am being raped during an exam. Believe me it is quite different. Then again I refuse to see a male ob/gyn. Acutally, I pretty much refuse to see an ob/gyn dr at all. Instead I see a certified nurse-midwife (they do yearly exams as well as deliver babies). What a difference from a dr. Call me crazy but I like to be on a first name basis with someone who provides care to my most private areas. There are stirrups of a sort. The kind that your feet rest on and if you don't like them you can tell the mw and just put your feet up on the table. However, my cnm office uses dignity duds. A shirt much like a nursing top, with a opening for a breast exam. The pants have an opening in the crouch. Never have I felt exposed. The whole exam is more dignified and less uncomfortable. I am so comfortable during the exam, my mw and I can carry on a conversation. Unlike the drs I had seen prior to finding my mw, there is a sense of equality and relationship. I had all three of my kids with my mw. And the research I did on mws show that, even when mom's risk factors are the same, mws have a lower infant and maternal mortality. It is thought to be because of the time that mws spend with their patients and listen to mom's concerns. Unlike many drs I have seen, mw's believe that mom and her body know what they are doing. So if mom has a gut feeling, the mw will follow up on it. The US ranks close to 40 on infant mortality. Countries that use a mw model of care during pg have the lowest infant mortality rates. Then there are c-section rates. I cannot believe that people go into ob (not gyn, ob!) because of the mix of primary care and surgery. It is appalling that they go into it thinking that. No wonder the c-section rate in the US is so high. It's because the OB's like surgery.

I have given up on becoming an ob and will become a CNM instead. It follows the care that I believe in and the low interventions. Not that OB's aren't necessary. They are for high risk pgs and when mom truly does need a c-section. I just believe I am better suited to the CNM career.

 

[Janice]

I am a woman and I prefer to have no gyn at all, unless I would have a real gynecological problem, I would choose a female gyn.
Offcourse amongst the female gyns there must be good ones and less good ones. You cannot really give your opinion about female gyns, if you have only seen one, if that was by coincidence a bad experience, it doenst mean that all female gyns are the same.

Offcourse the overall problem is the whole gyn mentality that needs to change.
I insist that those humiliating stirrups become forbidden in any doctorsroom, because that's really a disgusting invention of men, who never layed in it themselves and whatever woman who claims to not bother being submitted in the stirrups is a big lyer.

I am in favour of allowing only women in this industry, so they can start to think critically about this overcontrolling industry on women invented by men, where the sexistic male thoughts about women are still the fundaments in gynecology.

To those who are so heavily reacting to the women who are trying to free themselves from the gyn chains and who are doing a hard job to make other women conscious about this-you are only being so defiant, refusing to empathise because you cannot bear the fact that you have been raping women all your life in the name of goodness, or are about to do so.

To the women who support their own rapers, it's hurting me that you do not want to wake up and refuse to acknowlegde your own feelings, but instead adopt the rational arguments of doctors and let yourself be brainwashed,
I would say; follow your intuition, your body is healthy and there is no need to let yourself be 'checked' (read: raped) every year for unnessecary reasons.

You are saying to these wanna be doctors what I've been saying all the time. The mentality of the gyn exam should have been changed a long time ago. Part of the reason for the mentality is the women who are so eager to be examined in that fashion just because a doctor wants to. Not because they really need the exam, but simply because the doctor wants to do one. They don't question his or her reason for wanting to do the exam, and they certainly don't refuse to allow the exam. Another reason is just simply the mentality of the male doctor towards women. In today's society, some of these male doctors got a problem with women who stand up for their rights. They communicate with the doctor, and they are not afraid to refuse an exam if they don't feel the need for one.

Another thing, these doctors who impose this exam on women for employment, school entrance, etc., need to be SUED! That's right, SUED! There are no civilian jobs, schools, etc. that require/mandate a gyn exam! Absolutely nobody! The only two instances known: Military entrance and the NASA SPACE PROGRAM. Not even goverment jobs require a gyn exam. Most jobs today don't require a physical let alone a gyn exam. Urine test results is the main interest as they are looking for drugs.

Women are preferring women gyn docs today, because they feel they can better communicate (relate) to them. There is this woman to woman talk, which is not successfully done with a male doctor. There's a lot that simply doesn't get communicated to them, because of their sex. It's just that simple whether they understand it or not.

 

[Drakensoul]

Women who agree with how gynecology is today and think it's ok to be examined by a man in the way they still do it, is because these women do not have respect for themselves, that's why.

So glad to see that you know what every woman on the planet (who doesn't care whether she has a male or female GYN) is thinking. Yeah, I'm sure it's because every single woman with a male GYN has no respect for herself. That sounds great.

Anyway, we already have one thread that has degenerated into a "male OBGYNs are rapist controlling dominating people who should be sued and thrown out of practice" fest, could you please refrain from derailing every thread in the OB/GYN section with your shennanigans? Some of us would like to be able to read through threads without having to sort through this dickitry and douchebaggery.

I don't know, something about the idea of people who genuinely go into medicine so they can help other people stay healthy and improve quality of life; who devote 7+ years of study and 65+ hours a week of their lives to the field having to come here and read people calling them rapist pigs is really disheartening. Confine it to the other one, thanks.

 

[Janice]

So glad to see that you know what every woman on the planet (who doesn't care whether she has a male or female GYN) is thinking. Yeah, I'm sure it's because every single woman with a male GYN has no respect for herself. That sounds great.

Anyway, we already have one thread that has degenerated into a "male OBGYNs are rapist controlling dominating people who should be sued and thrown out of practice" fest, could you please refrain from derailing every thread in the OB/GYN section with your shennanigans? Some of us would like to be able to read through threads without having to sort through this dickitry and douchebaggery.

I don't know, something about the idea of people who genuinely go into medicine so they can help other people stay healthy and improve quality of life; who devote 7+ years of study and 65+ hours a week of their lives to the field having to come here and read people calling them rapist pigs is really disheartening. Confine it to the other one, thanks.

It is not my fault that some male doctors (as opposed to female docs) insist on giving and do give, the gyn exam when there is clearly no medical reason/mandate for the exam. It is not about how many damn years they have gone to school, etc, it is about "power and control" for the moment. They're not concerned about any consequences, because they don't think there will be any.

It ain't me with the shennanigans. I've never told any woman she had to have a pap smear to get this job. I've never known any woman doctor to do that either. I've only heard of it happening between a female patient and a male doctor.

 

[Heliums]

The reason you don't see why it should matter is because, you are not a woman and don't have the mind of a woman. Also, nurses are not always present, as some male doctors with their own private practices, do not use a nurse. Last but not least, it doesn't matter how professional a male doctor is or what kind of degree he holds, etc., he is still a male and therefore not the average woman's preference. Nothing changes a woman's preferences about the sex of the doctor she prefers. In short, it's all about her preferences, and not about his professionalism or credentials. It's about who she FEELS most comfortable with, because that is who she trust the most. All the so-called professionalism and credentials in the world cannot over-ride that. A lot of women simply don't trust male doctors for that type of exam, and there are a million and one reasons. I need not name them. Count them for yourself.

For those women who do not like a male OB/GYN would you rather have a homosexual male doctor or a homosexual female doctor? What is the real reason for women not liking male OB/GYN?s? With the incredible increased amount of women going into OB/GYN how many are homosexual? Would you want to know the sexual orientation of your doctor or is the fact that she is a women good enough even though she maybe homosexual? So who do you trust now?

 

[ayndim]

For those women who do not like a male OB/GYN would you rather have a homosexual male doctor or a homosexual female doctor? What is the real reason for women not liking male OB/GYN?s? With the incredible increased amount of women going into OB/GYN how many are homosexual? Would you want to know the sexual orientation of your doctor or is the fact that she is a women good enough even though she maybe homosexual? So who do you trust now?

Female whether homosexual or heterosexual is my choice. No I don't ask the sexual preferences of my providers. I feel more comfortable with a female period. I don't like the thought of a male besides my husband seeing me naked or touching my private parts. Like it or not those are my sexual organs and I don't like other men touching them. And I am a rape survivor and have no desire to be in a position like that with a man besides my husband.

 

[Drakensoul]

It is not my fault that some male doctors (as opposed to female docs) insist on giving and do give, the gyn exam when there is clearly no medical reason/mandate for the exam. It is not about how many damn years they have gone to school, etc, it is about "power and control" for the moment. They're not concerned about any consequences, because they don't think there will be any.

It ain't me with the shennanigans. I've never told any woman she had to have a pap smear to get this job. I've never known any woman doctor to do that either. I've only heard of it happening between a female patient and a male doctor.

Some people defecate on a bed and roll around on it.
Some people murder other people.
Some people have sex with animals.
Some physicians abuse their station.

If you want to wage a war against some people, find a forum to support it. This isn't it. "Some" people do just about anything you can think of. It isn't the norm. You're complaining and complaining about a (I'll bet incredibly small) group of doctors who are corrupt. They exist, we're all aware. Congratulations.

This forum isn't where they all come to hang out. We all want to help people, and have no interest in giving exams when they aren't necessary. Have no interest in giving exams just to 'dominate' women.

I think you know that; you've seen the responses, yet you continue. And continue. And continue. Why? What do you think you're accomplishing? You aren't going to change anything or do a bit of good here, because there's no one here to change. You're not raising any kind of awareness, because people are already aware.

The few people who have agreed with you have already made the choice not to see male OB/GYNs, so you didn't do anything to help there, either. The only thing that you've accomplished through all of this is to come off looking like a troll. That's it. Almost no one agrees with you, because no one here fits in the group of "some doctors" that you keep saying are evil and horrible.

If you want to rally people to support your femenist cause, more power to you. Have fun. Have a pride parade, I don't care. But you're really wasting your/our time here. Your posts don't do anything except bother people who feel genuinely upset that there's someone on the internet accusing them of being rapists when they are devoting so much of their life to trying to help people. As a result, they try and point out that you're incorrect because they can't concieve of a person who would say such ludicrous things about a group of people they're a part of (you started all of this off by saying ALL male OB/GYNs).

So, at the end of it all, I would really like to know why you keep doing this. It's pointless, it's rather insulting to a good number of people, and it's disrespectful. Is it just because you can get away with being inflamatory over an anonymous medium like the internet? Well, that's great.

Here's your sticker.

Please stop raping us all.

 

[Janice]

Some people defecate on a bed and roll around on it.
Some people murder other people.
Some people have sex with animals.
Some physicians abuse their station.

If you want to wage a war against some people, find a forum to support it. This isn't it. "Some" people do just about anything you can think of. It isn't the norm. You're complaining and complaining about a (I'll bet incredibly small) group of doctors who are corrupt. They exist, we're all aware. Congratulations.

This forum isn't where they all come to hang out. We all want to help people, and have no interest in giving exams when they aren't necessary. Have no interest in giving exams just to 'dominate' women.

I think you know that; you've seen the responses, yet you continue. And continue. And continue. Why? What do you think you're accomplishing? You aren't going to change anything or do a bit of good here, because there's no one here to change. You're not raising any kind of awareness, because people are already aware.

The few people who have agreed with you have already made the choice not to see male OB/GYNs, so you didn't do anything to help there, either. The only thing that you've accomplished through all of this is to come off looking like a troll. That's it. Almost no one agrees with you, because no one here fits in the group of "some doctors" that you keep saying are evil and horrible.

If you want to rally people to support your femenist cause, more power to you. Have fun. Have a pride parade, I don't care. But you're really wasting your/our time here. Your posts don't do anything except bother people who feel genuinely upset that there's someone on the internet accusing them of being rapists when they are devoting so much of their life to trying to help people. As a result, they try and point out that you're incorrect because they can't concieve of a person who would say such ludicrous things about a group of people they're a part of (you started all of this off by saying ALL male OB/GYNs).

So, at the end of it all, I would really like to know why you keep doing this. It's pointless, it's rather insulting to a good number of people, and it's disrespectful. Is it just because you can get away with being inflamatory over an anonymous medium like the internet? Well, that's great.

Here's your sticker.

Please stop raping us all.

Be glad pal for the word "some". At least it doesn't call anybody's name on this board. That word includes many and yet names nobody. If anybody is upset by what they read on this or any other board on the internet, all they have to do is simply ignor it. None of you should be upset by any opinion given on a board about a group you may be associated with. Not everybody in a group is good. Not everybody in a group is bad. Opinions are expressed about both. My friend that is not going to change.

Those who get too upset shouldn't, but may do so because it may be hitting too close to home. I don't care what group you belong to, you don't know every single person or what they've ever done. A small number of people will not bother reading these boards. A good number of people will, and find them them quite interesting.

By the way, you can count on one hand and probably won't use all 5 fingers, the number of female docs who have committed medical rape. That's a problem characteristic of the male doctors.

 

[Heliums]

Be glad pal for the word "some". At least it doesn't call anybody's name on this board. That word includes many and yet names nobody. If anybody is upset by what they read on this or any other board on the internet, all they have to do is simply ignor it. None of you should be upset by any opinion given on a board about a group you may be associated with. Not everybody in a group is good. Not everybody in a group is bad. Opinions are expressed about both. My friend that is not going to change.

Those who get too upset shouldn't, but may do so because it may be hitting too close to home. I don't care what group you belong to, you don't know every single person or what they've ever done. A small number of people will not bother reading these boards. A good number of people will, and find them them quite interesting.

By the way, you can count on one hand and probably won't use all 5 fingers, the number of female docs who have committed medical rape. That's a problem characteristic of the male doctors.

You actually know the number of times a female doctor has committed medical "rape"? Janice sorry to hear what has happened to you in the past. I will pray for you so the hate in your heart will subside.

 

[doglover]

woo hoo!!!! Crazy Janice on another thread! Spread the laughs around!

 

[asherah]

For those women who do not like a male OB/GYN would you rather have a homosexual male doctor or a homosexual female doctor? What is the real reason for women not liking male OB/GYN?s? With the incredible increased amount of women going into OB/GYN how many are homosexual? Would you want to know the sexual orientation of your doctor or is the fact that she is a women good enough even though she maybe homosexual? So who do you trust now?

I would prefer a homosexual female doctor over a homosexual male doctor.
But as I already said, I'd preferred to have none, because the whole MENTALITY in gynecology needs to change and it can only change when women only work on this. How can women free themselves otherwise from these mental chains? Men can't change the mentality in gyn industry as they are the cause of it. Women first need to make these changes.

Everything that is wrong in this industry started with male doctors who interfered with this natural gift that women have: giving birth.
Male doctors(in the past there weren't even female doctors and the midwifes were not allowed anymore to do what they always have done)have made women believe that they can't deliver babies on their own, that it is a scary thing, dangerous and needs technical help.

These men there ideas about the reproductive organs of women, childbirth and everything that has to do with it is based on unhealthy ideas, because they were developed out of the desire to dominate over women.

Gynecology as it is today is still influenced, not only influenced actually, but has not changed from how it used to be. Only the technical aspect has improved, which is a good thing for the small number of women who can benefit from it, but as I already said the technical help that men offer women in childbirth stems from the idea that women can't succesfully give birth without their help and that is why it's abnormal that most women give birth with the commands of a gyn/ob.

A good trend in gynecology is that women today(after all these years) are allowed to become a gyn/ob as well, but that hasn't changed the mentality yet. After all, these female students had to learn from their male professors about their own bodies. Women can't just take everything in gynecology for factual truths as we know with what intentions the male founders of it have started it and have excluded women from it for ages.


Gynecologists use scientific arguments to prove other thinking women that they are wrong, but out of statistics, you can draw any type of conclusions.
Science can be very well manipulated. Especially since people believe that only scientists know the truth. But the truth is that science without spirituality is blind and spirituality without science is superstition.

When a woman lets herself be examined by a male gyn, it will not change a thing if the male physician is caring and understanding(offcourse it would be even worse if he was not), because the male domination over women that has continued for centuries and especially in the gyn industry is still present in the collective subconscious of women. And male doctors continue to make abuse of this, because this medical branche is a great way to still gain controll over women in a legal way.

As I said it is not about the individual choice of finding the right caring gyn regardless of their sex, because it is a collective problem that is based on sexism. A problem that has it roots in the fundaments of gynecology. All ideas about gyn issues stem from that same basic idea: women need to be controlled.

That is why only women can and need to change this mentality in the gyn industry and why a single caring male gyn can not resolve the problem.