med school and debt

[LovelyRita]

I agree that DOs should have all of the same opportunities as MDs... but in the real world it doesn't work like that...

yes it does

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[Finally M3]

My last post on the DO v. MD crap before returning to the OP topic:

The quote from Bones is MOSTLY accurate. Yes, your individual characteristics/interview skills matters a great deal. If you are a DO and take USMLE in addition to COMLEX and rock both, you will get interview invites to many allo programs. However, there are a number of programs (residency and fellowships), for whatever reason, won't look at a DO candidate. From the grapevine, I've heard program directors say flat-out 'We don't accept DOs to our program'.

I have no bones to pick with DOs as I'm in a very DO friendly field and location and I know what they bring to our field. But I've heard my DO classmates tell me about such and such program or PD who wouldn't look at DO applicants. Even in PM&R where we have a history of being DO friendly.

So I agree that you can do everything that MDs can do if you goto a DO school. But it may be a harder road, just because you'll have a pocket of programs who will exclude you off the bat.

Anyways, back to the OP topic:
I definitely looked at costs when choosing med school. My alma mater was $20K/year cheaper than two of the schools I was accepted to. And like anything, doing really well at a 'name' program will facilitate your chances of getting into a competitive field.

However, doing well at a well-known program may get you an interview. But doing well at a lesser-known program and rocking Step 1 will get you the same interview. Once you get you're foot in the door, the rest is up to you.

 

[EctopicFetus]

IMHO- You seem to dump alot of gas on fire that is the MD vs DO thing to be "sick and tired" of it.

E-

Eadysx bite me.. If you dont like the truth of things I cant help it.

 

[eadysx]

Eadysx bite me.. If you dont like the truth of things I cant help it.

The truth of what? I made an observation about you.
E-

 

[EctopicFetus]

Observation requires seeing me.. I didnt add any fuel to the fire. Rather I stated some rather obvious facts. It is simply a shame some people refuse to acknowledge the truth.

 

[GoPistons]

I agree with ectopic fetus... the facts are pretty straightforward and simple on this issue... but for whatever reason people feel the need to defend their degree or whatever, which is fine and understandable...

if somebody were to say "I want to be a neurosurgeon and have been accepted to Harvard Medical School and PCOM for the same cost"... could anybody in good conscience give them the advice to go to PCOM b/c "it doesn't matter or won't affect them"

if you really feel that it won't matter and that would be good advice... then you probably still believe in Santa Claus...

 

[Taus]

can't argue w/ that......

except that PCOM has 6 of their very own neurosurg spots..... jk jk..we do have those spots but you'd have to be f'ing crazy to turn down Harvard...especially for the same cost...


My final say on this thread:

To say we have some degree (whatever the amt. is) of less opportunities is a fair statement.

But--->
To say we are any lesser as individual Doctors is not a fair statement and is nothing but elitist bull$hit/ignorance.

 

[EctopicFetus]

But--->
To say we are any lesser as individual Doctors is not a fair statement and is nothing but elitist bull$hit/ignorance.

I dont believe anyone EVER said that on this thread or others. It is clear that there are good and bad MDs and DOs your degree doesnt make you but your work ethic does.

 

[hyperbaric]

I love MD's, and I've worked with many of them throughout my education in a major city. However, if anyone ever decides they aren't going to interview me for a position or that they are going to try to pay me less because I am a DO, I can guarantee that my loans are going to go away very quickly when I apply my lawsuit settlement to the remaining balance.

Thanks. I needed that laugh.

 

[hyperbaric]

I dont believe anyone EVER said that on this thread or others. It is clear that there are good and bad MDs and DOs your degree doesnt make you but your work ethic does.

Actually, GoPistons said, "they are not equivalent degrees and don't let anybody convince you otherwise..." in post #9 of this thread.

 

[EctopicFetus]

I believe that was in reference to the opportunities presented in general and not to an individual person. Thats taking his comment out of context.. Here is his WHOLE comment..

Of course there are some DOs that do all these things but the MD will just make your life much much much easier... they are not equivalent degrees and don't let anybody convince you otherwise...

Now I read this as they arent equivalent because an MD will make your life easier.

Let me know if you disagree?

 

[Sinnman]

didn't mean to rip on DOs as some people perceive... DOs are great and I have no bias towards them... the original question was would you go to DO school vs. MD school if you had the choice... and my answer is clearly MD... you can disagree with me and that is fine...

Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate somebody that has the guts to apologize/clarify their statement. (FWIW, ectopic, I did take this as a very derogative comment but now I understand that's not what he meant). I'm sorry for my part in this.

We can't we all just get along!!

 

[EctopicFetus]

Hey in the end 99% of us have similar goals personally and professionally. We want to be able to take care of our fams, be good to our patients and enjoy our lives.

OK <Group Hug Here>

 

[hyperbaric]

I believe that was in reference to the opportunities presented in general and not to an individual person. Thats taking his comment out of context.. Here is his WHOLE comment..



Now I read this as they arent equivalent because an MD will make your life easier.

Let me know if you disagree?

I certainly did not intend to misrepresent the comment (otherwise I wouldn't have left directions to the post).

That said, I think declaring that the degrees are not eqivalent is very different from stating that opportunities can be limited/more difficult/etc with the DO degree. It was likely just a poor choice of words. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but telling a pre-med 'don't let anyone convince you otherwise' doesn't sit well with me. IMHO - the best source of information on the problems (as descrbed in the previous posts) experienced by DOs as a result of their degree, is probably best described by a DO.

 

[Brett Hart]

Of course there are some DOs that do all these things but the MD will just make your life much much much easier... they are not equivalent degrees and don't let anybody convince you otherwise...

a nurse practitioner with 30 years of experience is better than a 3rd year medical resident but guess who gets more credibility?? This is the same way...

..

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, and you are either a pre-med with no experience or a first or second year medical student with no experience. Guess who gets more credibility? Well I can tell you that a 3rd year resident has very LITTLE credibility compared to a nurse practition with 30yrs of experience. A D.O. degree is quite equivalent actually..again, do you think they teach Anatomy any different at an M.D. school as opposed to a D.O. school? You probaby do actually since your view of medicine and reality is clearly skewed or you just have absolutley no experience and are confabulating. The latter is more likely of the two....

 

[OSUdoc08]

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, and you are either a pre-med with no experience or a first or second year medical student with no experience. Guess who gets more credibility? Well I can tell you that a 3rd year resident has very LITTLE credibility compared to a nurse practition with 30yrs of experience. A D.O. degree is quite equivalent actually..again, do you think they teach Anatomy any different at an M.D. school as opposed to a D.O. school? You probaby do actually since your view of medicine and reality is clearly skewed or you just have absolutley no experience and are confabulating. The latter is more likely of the two....

I highly doubt you are a 3rd year resident.

Our anatomy course included discussions related to osteopathic principles that would differ from an allopathic school.

 

[EctopicFetus]

OSUdoc I think he (BrettHart) was referring back to GoPistons (who stated he is a 3rd yr resident).

I will simply ask this because another thread where I asked this went to hell.

I believe that DOs learn everything that MDs do, and then they also learn OMM (or OMT), so would you say DOs are better prepared and know more?

This is the one thing about the DO thing that does bother me.. of course an MD would say that while you are doing OMM we are doing something else right? I am wondering if you could explain this to me.. I dont believe I said ANYTHING rude. It is simply a question.

Thanks in advance.

 

[cooldreams]

my advice would be to go with the MD... a DO is just not going to give you all of the opportunities you want... such as what if you decide to become a health care executive, work for pharma, be director of a large private practice group, work in the WHO... etc.

Of course there are some DOs that do all these things but the MD will just make your life much much much easier... they are not equivalent degrees and don't let anybody convince you otherwise...

a nurse practitioner with 30 years of experience is better than a 3rd year medical resident but guess who gets more credibility?? This is the same way...

Anyway, financially speaking, you will make more as an MD so your extra investment in the degree would be prudent...

i dont know about all of those big titles, but a recent army surgeon general was a DO. i know that is not like the president of the united states or anything, but it aint bad

http://www.aacom.org/DOprofiles/do-profile.asp?DO=4

 

[EctopicFetus]

i dont know about all of those big titles, but a recent army surgeon general was a DO. i know that is not like the president of the united states or anything, but it aint bad

http://www.aacom.org/DOprofiles/do-profile.asp?DO=4

Just to be clear the surgeon general of the Army isnt the guy you linked to... Just to be clear... No one said anything about them not getting good jobs.. I think most people know that they do..

 

[cooldreams]

Just to be clear the surgeon general of the Army isnt the guy you linked to... Just to be clear... No one said anything about them not getting good jobs.. I think most people know that they do..

yea your right, i was being lazy, that wasnt the the dood, i just linked there because he pointed out a number of other things....

so....

CHECK THIS OUT!!!!

All army surgeon generals...
http://history.amedd.army.mil/tsgs/default_index.html

the DO army surgeon general
http://history.amedd.army.mil/tsgs/Blanck.htm

there...so.. JUST TO BE CLEAR IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO FIGURE IT OUT... there he is...............................

 

[EctopicFetus]

Ill repeat so this doesnt get buried... too far..

I will simply ask this because another thread where I asked this went to hell.

I believe that DOs learn everything that MDs do, and then they also learn OMM (or OMT), so would you say DOs are better prepared and know more?

This is the one thing about the DO thing that does bother me.. of course an MD would say that while you are doing OMM we are doing something else right? I am wondering if you could explain this to me.. I dont believe I said ANYTHING rude. It is simply a question.

Thanks in advance.

 

[cooldreams]

Ill repeat so this doesnt get buried... too far..

I will simply ask this because another thread where I asked this went to hell.

I believe that DOs learn everything that MDs do, and then they also learn OMM (or OMT), so would you say DOs are better prepared and know more?

This is the one thing about the DO thing that does bother me.. of course an MD would say that while you are doing OMM we are doing something else right? I am wondering if you could explain this to me.. I dont believe I said ANYTHING rude. It is simply a question.

Thanks in advance.

in some aspects i WOULD say that DOs are better prepared. CONSISTENTLY im told AND observe that MDs do not interact as much with their patients as do DOs. While this would not universally be something that would make a DO "better prepared", I would say that in many instances it does, such as primary care where you may not know what you are dealing with, and you know you cannot completely rely on what the patient tells to you.

what do MDs do that DOs do not do in school? good question. im not sure. i do know that DOs are quite capable of taking and scoreing very well on the USMLE, while MDs could not do the same on the COMLEX. that explains more than enough for me.

however, it is things like primary care that are NOT so popular, that are not so competitive, so the reputation of DOs going into such a field may not sound as good as going into say plastics. yet, it is these "unpopular" fields that actually help to further the name of the DO community in that the plastic surgeon may see 4-5 or so patients a day, while a primary care doc would see 10+, easily giving much higher exposure.

 

[apellous]

I dont remember who the original poster of this crap was but here is my $.02. GO WHERE EVERY YOU WANT! if you are even bringing up this crap you should probably go to the MD school because you obviously care about the MD DO thing. I did not care and only applied DO but thats me. I am a short, ugly, and stupid(obviously) DO and somehow managed to get my 1st choice anesthesia program out of 22 interview offers. So just do whatever you want to because if you think that if I would have went to an MD program I would be better at giving myself an axial block so that I can do the "stranger" for 12 hours, YOUR VERY WRONG.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I dont remember who the original poster of this crap was but here is my $.02. GO WHERE EVERY YOU WANT! if you are even bringing up this crap you should probably go to the MD school because you obviously care about the MD DO thing. I did not care and only applied DO but thats me. I am a short, ugly, and stupid(obviously) DO and somehow managed to get my 1st choice anesthesia program out of 22 interview offers. So just do whatever you want to because if you think that if I would have went to an MD program I would be better at giving myself an axial block so that I can do the "stranger" for 12 hours, YOUR VERY WRONG.

why the hostility for asking a question about something that might be a non-issue or might be critical to my future success (both sides have been argued here)? sorry i offended by asking a valid question, and no, i'm not a do basher.

congrats on your success, and i'm sure it's the norm. however, you're not doing the osteopathic profession any favors by making it look like a crazy cult where you're not allowed to ask questions.

editing for grammar

 

[EctopicFetus]

in some aspects i WOULD say that DOs are better prepared. CONSISTENTLY im told AND observe that MDs do not interact as much with their patients as do DOs. While this would not universally be something that would make a DO "better prepared", I would say that in many instances it does, such as primary care where you may not know what you are dealing with, and you know you cannot completely rely on what the patient tells to you.

what do MDs do that DOs do not do in school? good question. im not sure. i do know that DOs are quite capable of taking and scoreing very well on the USMLE, while MDs could not do the same on the COMLEX. that explains more than enough for me.

however, it is things like primary care that are NOT so popular, that are not so competitive, so the reputation of DOs going into such a field may not sound as good as going into say plastics. yet, it is these "unpopular" fields that actually help to further the name of the DO community in that the plastic surgeon may see 4-5 or so patients a day, while a primary care doc would see 10+, easily giving much higher exposure.

Cooldreams, I am curious how far along in your education you are?

 

[bones]

Wow haha

it looks like i got myself quoted into the middle of an MD vs DO war.

To the OP, sorry all these insecure combative people have hijacked your thread. I'll answer your question.

I am currently applying for med school for the 2006 entering class. I thought it would be better to ask a more experienced lot than the pre-allos about debt and med school. Is $100,000 in debt a really huge burden like many pre-meds make it out to be? It seems to me like it's one extra bill you will have to pay in the future but not something that's gonna do you in. If anyone has any advice or a link to a previous thread discussing this topic that would be great. Thanks.

100,000 in debt is NOTHING. nada. zilch. especially if you consolidated in time

For a poor dude like me who was on almost full need scholarship all through college- the medical school debt seemed like an unreal scary number. you get numb to it around 3rd year. Just realize that on the other side of residency you'll be making a ton of money, no matter your specialty... and when that much money is changing hands, it is how much you know about money and NOT how hard you work or how many pay raises you get that will determine how easily you pay off your loans.


Believe it or not, many docs struggle financially, even with their huge incomes. If you dont spend all your income on things that cost you upkeep over time (like a big house, marrying a spoiled model, a 3rd corvette, a new airplane etc. etc.)- and instead invest some of it into things that MAKE you money over time (income generating real estate, stocks/bonds with the aid of a financial planner, or building your practice via marketing or adding services)- you will do just fine. Make sure to buy most of your expenses before taxes too- The guy above who was complaining about the taxes clearly didnt make his practice a corporation- expenses are pre-tax then. He probably owns all his own stuff too instead of making it a company car, etc... which means he will be a sitting duck for lawyers who want a juicy target.


In the end, that 100k is just a drop in the bucket. You'll make over 3 mil earned income in your life if you do primary care, double that in many specialties. And yes, even DO's with our "inferior" degree.... Some OMM specialists and plastic surgeons make 10million before retirement.

Truth is, there are tremendous opportunities out there for both MD's and DO's. Spend your time educating yourself financially rather than working extra hours, ignoring your family, or spending less time per patient to fit in a few more. They will all thank you for it, and you'll be happier and richer- and that little school loan wont feel like much.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Truth is, there are tremendous opportunities out there for both MD's and DO's.

Spend your time educating yourself financially rather than working extra hours, ignoring your family, or spending less time per patient to fit in a few more. They will all thank you for it, and you'll be happier and richer- and that little school loan wont feel like much.

This here is the smartest thing said on SDN probably in the last 5 years.. Just FYI 100K in debt will run about $600 per month over 30 yrs. If you make 160K per yr your take home might be around 10K(actually a little less) per month.. so you will still have 9+K after you pay.. thats in primary care..

 

[GoPistons]

When I said that I don't think they are equivalent degrees... I was stating it in the context of future opportunities...

for instance, a Harvard MBA will give one more opportunities than State School MBA... even though they are "technically" the same degree... and of course some state school MBAs go on to be CEOs and hedgefund managers and whatever else, but a Harvard MBA and a State School MBA are not "equivalent" degrees in my mind... because of the doors it will open up...

The state schooler MBA and Harvard MBA did obviously learn from the same textbooks in school... so in theory they are the same degree... but in real life they are not equivalent... that is the point...

I agree that MD=DO from the standpoint of education... that obviously cannot be argued...

 

[Brett Hart]

for instance, a Harvard MBA will give one more opportunities than State School MBA... even though they are "technically" the same degree... and of course some state school MBAs go on to be CEOs and hedgefund managers and whatever else, but a Harvard MBA and a State School MBA are not "equivalent" degrees in my mind... because of the doors it will open up...
QUOTE]


"In your mind" ...where a 3rd year resident gets more respect that a 30yr nurse practitioner? I must ask...what color is the sky in that little world you seem to live in?

 

[GoPistons]

I wonder what color your eyes see as your head seems to be up your aXX

Are you now trying to say NP = MD??? You are out of your mind... a 3rd year resident is a few electives away from being a full attending and most likely has already fulfilled 90% of the core medical rotations...

 

[johndean11229]

wow, what an interesting thread, sheesh, you guys can not get off this argument huh? well, since i used to be on this thread way back in the day and now i am getting ready for residency, i thought i would put in my two cents. i am a 4th year DO student going into psych. now psych is not the most competitve field in the world. directos think it will be in 5 years. and i am happy to be applying now. but my interviews have included cambridge, yale, brown, u of maryland and almost all of the nyc programs..not too bad, and you know what, i have not been asked about the DO thing once, cuz my application backs up all and i know where i stand across the board, do/md. where ever you go, if you kick ass, get published and get honors in rotations, you are going anywhere you want. but i will be honest with some of the written statements. if i was applying to derm, rad onc, i prob would be having a much more difficult time and would be prob applying osteopathic as well. btw, no md just cuz he is an md is smarter than a do, cuz my md friends do not temp my knowlegde. my best friend who is going into ophthamology at nyu who graduated a really good md school and is a 1st year intern did not know what is blood pressure and guess what, most med students do not know the answer. they think it is systolic over diastolic and anyone who has graduated med school and thikns that is the answer really did not learn much during those years. and a lot of my friends would agree...very interesting....thats my two cents

 

[Poety]

This here is the smartest thing said on SDN probably in the last 5 years.. Just FYI 100K in debt will run about $600 per month over 30 yrs. If you make 160K per yr your take home might be around 10K(actually a little less) per month.. so you will still have 9+K after you pay.. thats in primary care..

How I've come to terms with the debt of 250K

I think of it as a second mortgage on a nicer house than the one I'll be living in for a long long time

 

[daisygirl]

wow, what an interesting thread, sheesh, you guys can not get off this argument huh? well, since i used to be on this thread way back in the day and now i am getting ready for residency, i thought i would put in my two cents. i am a 4th year DO student going into psych. now psych is not the most competitve field in the world. directos think it will be in 5 years. and i am happy to be applying now. but my interviews have included cambridge, yale, brown, u of maryland and almost all of the nyc programs..not too bad, and you know what, i have not been asked about the DO thing once, cuz my application backs up all and i know where i stand across the board, do/md. where ever you go, if you kick ass, get published and get honors in rotations, you are going anywhere you want. but i will be honest with some of the written statements. if i was applying to derm, rad onc, i prob would be having a much more difficult time and would be prob applying osteopathic as well. btw, no md just cuz he is an md is smarter than a do, cuz my md friends do not temp my knowlegde. my best friend who is going into ophthamology at nyu who graduated a really good md school and is a 1st year intern did not know what is blood pressure and guess what, most med students do not know the answer. they think it is systolic over diastolic and anyone who has graduated med school and thikns that is the answer really did not learn much during those years. and a lot of my friends would agree...very interesting....thats my two cents

As you have mentioned, psych is non-competitive.

There is no difference between the DO and MD degrees. However, certain specialties are quite anti-DO. Surgery is one of them. I have not seen one DO candidate during my interviews this season. Anyone contemplating going osteopathic should realize that even if you wind up being a superstar in school, you may very well find it an uphill battle trying to match into certain specialities (general surgery, all of the surgical subspecialties, rads, derm, etc..).

 

[Poety]

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndean11229
wow, what an interesting thread, sheesh, you guys can not get off this argument huh? well, since i used to be on this thread way back in the day and now i am getting ready for residency, i thought i would put in my two cents. i am a 4th year DO student going into psych. now psych is not the most competitve field in the world. directos think it will be in 5 years. and i am happy to be applying now. but my interviews have included cambridge, yale, brown, u of maryland and almost all of the nyc programs..not too bad, and you know what, i have not been asked about the DO thing once, cuz my application backs up all and i know where i stand across the board, do/md. where ever you go, if you kick ass, get published and get honors in rotations, you are going anywhere you want. but i will be honest with some of the written statements. if i was applying to derm, rad onc, i prob would be having a much more difficult time and would be prob applying osteopathic as well. btw, no md just cuz he is an md is smarter than a do, cuz my md friends do not temp my knowlegde. my best friend who is going into ophthamology at nyu who graduated a really good md school and is a 1st year intern did not know what is blood pressure and guess what, most med students do not know the answer. they think it is systolic over diastolic and anyone who has graduated med school and thikns that is the answer really did not learn much during those years. and a lot of my friends would agree...very interesting....thats my two cents



what are you talking about blood pressure? You "measure" blood pressure but you're measuring the pressure in the arteries. Systolic is the pressure of blood against the arteries as the left ventricle CONTRACTS, diastolic is the pressure in teh arteries as the ventricle FILLS - every single medical student I know can answer that question - how insulting.

 

[billydoc]

As you have mentioned, psych is non-competitive.

There is no difference between the DO and MD degrees. However, certain specialties are quite anti-DO. Surgery is one of them. I have not seen one DO candidate during my interviews this season. Anyone contemplating going osteopathic should realize that even if you wind up being a superstar in school, you may very well find it an uphill battle trying to match into certain specialities (general surgery, all of the surgical subspecialties, rads, derm, etc..).

I personally know several NYCOM graduates in surgical allopathic residencies, and one guy is a friend of mine who is in ortho (D.O.) program in NY. Surgery is quite possible as a D.O. if you really want it. BTW I'm neither MD nor DO, so I don't have any stake in it. But to me a doc is a doc is a doc
Ohh, why did I get myself in that pointless premed arguement????!

 

[daisygirl]

I personally know several NYCOM graduates in surgical allopathic residencies, and one guy is a friend of mine who is in ortho (D.O.) program in NY. Surgery is quite possible as a D.O. if you really want it. BTW I'm neither MD nor DO, so I don't have any stake in it. But to me a doc is a doc is a doc
Ohh, why did I get myself in that pointless premed arguement????!

I did not say that pursuing surgery is an unattainable goal for a DO student.

I still stand by my assertion that it is an uphill battle for DOs to get into surgery (particularly the northeast, not sure about other regions). An allopathic graduate will have an easier time breaking into general surgery. As I've said in my previous post- I have not seen even one osteopathic candidate on any of my interview days this season. I have seen FMG's occasionally, but even they are far and few in between.

You're status as a pre-med indicates that you know very little regarding matters such as this topic

 

[EctopicFetus]

I will say that I have rotated at 7-8 teaching hospitals and I have not seen a single DO in general service. These rotations (with the exception of 1) have been in the midwest. To be fair DOs have their own surgery residencies, I do not know how many there are nor how competitive they are.

I will say that EM (like I am going into) is pretty DO friendly, but there are programs that shut out DOs (there is a thread by DOs on there now) even with great board scores. CorpsmanUP stated he got a 262 and IIRC MIshkaDO stated he scored in the 250. They have gotten some interviews @ great programs but others just shut them down.

Hope this helps..

 

[Poety]

I did not say that pursuing surgery is an unattainable goal for a DO student.

I still stand by my assertion that it is an uphill battle for DOs to get into surgery (particularly the northeast, not sure about other regions). An allopathic graduate will have an easier time breaking into general surgery. As I've said in my previous post- I have not seen even one osteopathic candidate on any of my interview days this season. I have seen FMG's occasionally, but even they are far and few in between.

You're status as a pre-med indicates that you know very little regarding matters such as this topic

Hi Daisy,

I just thought I would throw in here that at my home institution (allopathic Northeast) there are a few DO residents in the general and ortho program - no one really cares what the degree is -as long as they're that whole "hoorah" type of guy with big muscles oh, and the hair, we CANNOT forget the hair

 

[billydoc]

I did not say that pursuing surgery is an unattainable goal for a DO student.

I still stand by my assertion that it is an uphill battle for DOs to get into surgery (particularly the northeast, not sure about other regions). An allopathic graduate will have an easier time breaking into general surgery. As I've said in my previous post- I have not seen even one osteopathic candidate on any of my interview days this season. I have seen FMG's occasionally, but even they are far and few in between.

You're status as a pre-med indicates that you know very little regarding matters such as this topic

Well, that's good. But I just provided you with facts, because ppl I'm talking about are not my imaginary playmates, and most definetely are not my assertions . They are D.Os in surgery and even D.O ortho residencies in NYC (and outer boroughs). I think NY is pretty much in NorthEast, at least last time I checked. Where did you come up with an idea of me being premed though, lol?The fact the you haven't seen D.Os in surgery tells me just that. So you haven't seen them, and I know them personally.
Anyway, Daisygirl, let me know if you need any help knocking that chip off your shoulders

 

[daisygirl]

Well, that's good. But I just provided you with facts, because ppl I'm talking about are not my imaginary playmates, and most definetely are not my assertions . They are D.Os in surgery and even D.O ortho residencies in NYC (and outer boroughs). I think NY is pretty much in NorthEast, at least last time I checked. Where did you come up with an idea of me being premed though, lol?The fact the you haven't seen D.Os in surgery tells me just that. So you haven't seen them, and I know them personally.
Anyway, Daisygirl, let me know if you need any help knocking that chip off your shoulders

For the love of god, I never said that it is impossible for a DO to get an allopathic spot in general surgery. So, kindly refrain from posting further on how your freinds are not imaginary people.

You are a premed- your posts outside of this topic have alluded to that. I don't feel that you, as a pre-med student, really have any conception of how competitive general surgery is.

I'm simply trying to help those who may be contemplating pursuing a DO degree versus an MD degree. Unfortunately, there are some specialities in medicine where DOs are not well represented. It is not a question of DOs not being capable, however, those in charge of choosing candidates will pass them over due to the perception that they are somehow inferior.

 

[Poety]

Hey everyone, back to the OP

Loan RATES for consolidation:


If anyone has any info on something lower, please post it - becaue I want it. The 2.75 I found are at:

http://www.nextstudent.com/


http://www.topconsolidator.com/learn_more.aspx


4.75 at http://www.salliemae.com/apply/borrowing/smartloan.html

3.5 at http://www.edconsolidation.com/

Please post more info on this stuff if you have it! Thanks

 

[OSUdoc08]

Hey everyone, back to the OP, I'd like to remind everyone that loan consolidation is going to FIXED as of this July so consolidate now, and lock in your rate for about 2.75 is the lowest I've seen.

If anyone has any info on something lower, please post it - becaue I want it. The 2.75 I found are at:

http://www.nextstudent.com/


http://www.topconsolidator.com/learn_more.aspx


4.75 at http://www.salliemae.com/apply/borrowing/smartloan.html

3.5 at http://www.edconsolidation.com/

Please post more info on this stuff if you have it! Thanks

I thought that was last July.

 

[Poety]

I just checked, I think it did go up last July, but you can still lock at 2.75, I don't knw I'm confused now. I wish my avatar would go to sleep so I can sleep <yawn>

 

[OSUdoc08]

I just checked, I think it did go up last July, but you can still lock at 2.75, I don't knw I'm confused now. I wish my avatar would go to sleep so I can sleep <yawn>

All I know is that July of 2005 was the last you could consolidate before the interest rates went up.

Either they are doing another "lock" of rates (at a higher interest rate than you mentioned) or your information is a year too old.

 

[serenity head]

As you have mentioned, psych is non-competitive.

There is no difference between the DO and MD degrees. However, certain specialties are quite anti-DO. Surgery is one of them. I have not seen one DO candidate during my interviews this season. Anyone contemplating going osteopathic should realize that even if you wind up being a superstar in school, you may very well find it an uphill battle trying to match into certain specialities (general surgery, all of the surgical subspecialties, rads, derm, etc..).

But then DO's can always fall back on their DO surgery residencies. We have around 100+ surgery spots not including specialized areas.

 

[Poety]

All I know is that July of 2005 was the last you could consolidate before the interest rates went up.

Either they are doing another "lock" of rates (at a higher interest rate than you mentioned) or your information is a year too old.

I have no idea, the rates I have are from active webpages - but sallie mae is at 4.75 ....

I think I missed the boat.

 

[psychedoc2b]

But then DO's can always fall back on their DO surgery residencies. We have around 100+ surgery spots not including specialized areas.

I have worked with DO's in my rotations and don't see much difference in their abilities compared to a MD. Since I am from the midwest where CCOM rules, I observed that there are DO's in competitive MD specialities such as bariatric surg, cardio, ophtho, EM. IMO, if you go the DO route, just do well in school and on the boards. You should not have major problems going into a competitive specialty. The midwest definitely has its share of DOs who are doing quite well in MD residencies. I have met them at Northwestern, U of C, UIC, Loyola, etc. I don't know what the reasons are behind
knocking down the D.O. degree and stating it is not as good as a MD degree.If you do well in any med school, you should not have much problems in getting the residency you want. I know of other medical students who did not get the residency of their choice because of uncompetitive board scores and clinical grades. MD does not mean it will automatically open doors for you. One still has to put the effort, determination, and have also competitive board scores and clinical grades to get into any competitive residency. I would just go to the school where you are accepted and do the best you possibly can without worrying too much about the supposive differences in having a MD or DO degree.

psychedoc2b

 

[EctopicFetus]

As far as EM goes...
NW has one DO as a resident he is a PGY-3 (info isnt available for some residents)
UofC has zero DO residents out of their 45 or so spots
UIC has 3 DO residents out of 36.
Now I know Cook has a few DOs (since I rotated there).
Christ which might be the most competitive in Chicago has 1 DO in their most recent class.

Overall way less than 10% of all EM Allo residents are DO. IMO EM is way way more inclusive of DOs than other fields.

 

[EctopicFetus]

psych doc,

It is clear that a top notch DO is better than a crappy MD student, the thing is an average MD def has an advantage over an avg DO. I AM NOT saying this is right or whatever simply throwing it out there as a statement of my experience.

 

[psychedoc2b]

As far as EM goes...
NW has one DO as a resident he is a PGY-3 (info isnt available for some residents)
UofC has zero DO residents out of their 45 or so spots
UIC has 3 DO residents out of 36.
Now I know Cook has a few DOs (since I rotated there).
Christ which might be the most competitive in Chicago has 1 DO in their most recent class.

Overall way less than 10% of all EM Allo residents are DO. IMO EM is way way more inclusive of DOs than other fields.

Yes, I understand. I am not sure but do believe that there are fewer DO graduates in any field because there are fewer DO schools than MD schools. CCOM is the only DO school in Illinois, whereas there are about 6 M.D. schools in Illinois.

I think what it boils down to is that you go to med school where you are accepted and do well then you should get into the residency of your choice from whichever med school you graduated. I'm sure if you want to go to Mass General or some other top-notch program it will be as hard for a D.O. as it is for a M.D. to be interviewed and accepted.

I don't know what the basis of average is for a medical student. Are you referring to board scores and clinical grades? I don't think scores and grades are the end all and be all of getting into a program. LOR's, EC's, research experience, and the interview also count. And, yes, may be some programs put weight upon which school you have attended, i.e. D.O vs. MD but it's the same difference for a medical student who went to Harvard to one that went to diddly squat med school for a md degree. You have to remember there are IMG's also who have MD's. I really don't think there is any question about whether an american trained physician whether DO or MD is going to be accepted into an allopathic program vs. someone who is an IMG. Also, at least DO school grads do get comparable training as other AMG's. IMO, it is easier for an DO to get training here in the US than it is for an IMG. I have nothing against IMG's but the ones that I have met in the residencies where I worked absolutely blow my mind iin terms of how much they know. This means to me only the best of the best IMG's can train in america. That is, it is harder for an IMG than it is for a DO or AMG to be accepted into an american residency.

Thus, I don't believe at least from my experience that DO's have it much harder than AMG's to get into a competitive specialty. If you want to talk about whether a DO degree is competitive enough to get into Mass General, I am sure it is but do wonder how many DO's actually apply to Mass General anyways, thus, decreasing the number of DO's getting accepted.

Maybe you are right that there may be more hurdles as a DO to get into some very competitive residencies. My advice would be then just don't apply there.

psychedoc2b