is retail THAT bad?

[MountainPharmD]

Like rxlea said, this thread has deviated off-topic into the usual arguments (as seen in other threads) about poor people. Please stay on-topic or the thread is closed.

Who cares what we talk about in here? Every thread ever created on SDN has gone off topic by the 10th post. So what.

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[owlegrad]

I agree with this. I think luck has a lot to do with your success, but so does hardwork.

I would say rich people are rich b/c of 70% hardwork and 30% luck. You need both to be successful. If you only have 70% hardwork and no luck then it would really suck.

False. The majority of rich people inherited their wealth (or so I have been told - I wonder where this can be verified?).

I don't mean to imply that hardwork is useless, but most people don't stop to think how truly lucky they are.

Were your parents supportive of you?
Was your childhood geared toward education?
Did you ever have to work to help support your family?

I entered the workforce while I was in high-school to help my family out. After graduation I worked two job (about 60 hours a week). I did that for about 5 years. After some time I started to realize that I could ether go back to school and learn a skill that would seriously increase my earning power or I could work two jobs for the rest of my life just barely eking out a living. So I worked all through CC to help my family. I only just stopped working when I entered pharmacy school. Over the summer I am working two jobs again. It was tough on my family for me to go back to school but they know why I did it and are supportive. Plus I still help over the summer.

In our society being smart >> working hard. Going back to school is much, much easier than working two jobs. Hard work is great, but don't pretend that's all you need.

In ways that most people do not even consider, luck plays a huge part in your success. Did I work hard? I think so. But it's luck that I can go back to school at all.

 

[xiphoid2010]

Did your parents abuse you?

yes, my dad beat the living **** out of me frequently, as is common practice among asian parents.

Were there problems with drug abuse in your community? (and I don't mean locale...I mean the people directly around you..)

hell yes! H&B was common place there. My next door neighbor probably ran a crack house with all the coming and going. Detergent wasn't the only white powder that was sold in the laundrymat across from us.

Was there a cycle of hopelessness?

That's what I call making excuses. Hopeless is normal, being disadvantage is normal, but it's in your head. Wanting a better life is innate, but you need to refuse to let life get you down.

Not to mention the fact that some people aren't capable of pharmacy school, anyway. Hard work gives them a job at minimum wage and poverty. It is what it is.

You don't need to go to pharmacy school. I first got a B.S then a decent job. All it takes to be get out of the ghetto is to shape up and get a decent degree, even many community college/trade school ones will do. You can do that with 90 IQ. Unfortunately, most people around me won't even do that.

Dude, you seriously DO NOT know what you are talking about.

I was about to say the same thing. All you do is make excuses.

Everyone knows there's a better life out there and they don't have to live in a ghetto. You want to know what's unfair or cycle of hoplessness? Go live in rural china. There are no jobs, no school, no running water, no electricity, no health care, just drug, corruption and human trafficking. you can't even leave without government approval. You die, nobody cares. You are found with any drugs, it's automatic execution. Yet motivated people still flock to sweat shops and study at night in hopes of making a better life. That's the difference between those that you make excuses for and those that get out -- determination.

 

[Charlemagne]

.

 

[SHC1984]

False. The majority of rich people inherited their wealth (or so I have been told - I wonder where this can be verified?).

I don't mean to imply that hardwork is useless, but most people don't stop to think how truly lucky they are.

Were your parents supportive of you?
Was your childhood geared toward education?
Did you ever have to work to help support your family?

I entered the workforce while I was in high-school to help my family out. After graduation I worked two job (about 60 hours a week). I did that for about 5 years. After some time I started to realize that I could ether go back to school and learn a skill that would seriously increase my earning power or I could work two jobs for the rest of my life just barely eking out a living. So I worked all through CC to help my family. I only just stopped working when I entered pharmacy school. Over the summer I am working two jobs again. It was tough on my family for me to go back to school but they know why I did it and are supportive. Plus I still help over the summer.

In our society being smart >> working hard. Going back to school is much, much easier than working two jobs. Hard work is great, but don't pretend that's all you need.

In ways that most people do not even consider, luck plays a huge part in your success. Did I work hard? I think so. But it's luck that I can go back to school at all.

You are right. I mean to say upper middle class. Most rich people (billionaires, mulitmillionaires) did inherit their money. Yes, it's quite unfair unless you are born a billionaire or millionaire you will not be one. That I agree with! Yes.

I mean to say if you want to become middle class or upper middle class it's about 70% hardwork and 30% luck. I think most people can become middle class or upper middle class if they work hard at it. Will they ever become billionaires? hell no. Billionaires inherit their money. But can they get themselves out of the ghetto and become self supportive and not rely on the government? yes! Everyone has the ability to support themselves if they work hard at it. However to become SUPER rich, that is luck indeed.

 

[Its Z]

False. The majority of rich people inherited their wealth (or so I have been told - I wonder where this can be verified?).

False. Majority of American Millionaires are self made...typically from middle class family. This information can be found in "Millionaire Next Door." One of the author's name is Stanley.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Blathering

I'd continue to school you by bringing out sociological studies and such, but the mods told me to zip it. Which is painful because the amount of logical fallacies you made irks me and I can't do anything about it.

Consider yourself lucky that the man is holding me down and Mike was unable to intellectually slaughter you.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

False. Majority of American Millionaires are self made...typically from middle class family. This information can be found in "Millionaire Next Door." One of the author's name is Stanley.

A million dollars isn't exactly a lot of money these days. Virtucon alone makes over 9 billion dollars a year!

 

[xiphoid2010]

I mean to say if you want to become middle class or upper middle class it's about 70% hardwork and 30% luck. I think most people can become middle class or upper middle class if they work hard at it. Will they ever become billionaires? hell no. Billionaires inherit their money. But can they get themselves out of the ghetto and become self supportive and not rely on the government? yes! Everyone has the ability to support themselves if they work hard at it. However to become SUPER rich, that is luck indeed.

Exactly.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Anyone is free to continue this discussion (on topic or not) unless he or she cannot do so without resorting to name calling, insults and personal attacks.

I've said my piece in other threads about the elitist, classist mentality that some people seem determined to portray. I won't expound too much further on my beliefs, but they would fall pretty much in line with WVU's. Hating on the poor is easy for those who have never been poor, or those who have "made it" by whatever means. I can think of numerous examples of individuals who will never "make it" out of the "ghetto" or even into the middle class...

 

[Its Z]

A million dollars isn't exactly a lot of money these days. Virtucon alone makes over 9 billion dollars a year!

You can make 9 billion per year and spend 10 billion and be broke and in debt.

Millionaire simply means they have asset over a million. The point isn't about million being a lot or small amount of money. It's about Americans who are able to accumulate wealth didn't do it by inheritance....contrary to a common myth.

That being said, shut up about million not being a lot of money. Of course it's a lot of money. Do you know anyone close to you with a million dollars laying around?

 

[owlegrad]

You are right. I mean to say upper middle class. Most rich people (billionaires, mulitmillionaires) did inherit their money. Yes, it's quite unfair unless you are born a billionaire or millionaire you will not be one. That I agree with! Yes.

I mean to say if you want to become middle class or upper middle class it's about 70% hardwork and 30% luck. I think most people can become middle class or upper middle class if they work hard at it. Will they ever become billionaires? hell no. Billionaires inherit their money. But can they get themselves out of the ghetto and become self supportive and not rely on the government? yes! Everyone has the ability to support themselves if they work hard at it. However to become SUPER rich, that is luck indeed.

Fair enough.

Can people move up at least one (or more) socio-economic class? Absolutely. It's part of what makes the US great. Do most people move up a class? I suspect no. Is it because they are lazy? I don't think that's our place to say. Walk a mile in their shoes kinda thing. But for the majority, I will go ahead and say no, they are not lazy. Many of them have worked harder than we ever will. The issue is quite a bit more complicated than "Well if they would just get off their butts and work they could improve their lives".

Side note, I laugh at what some people consider "hard" work. Like working in an air conditioned building with no manual labor for a six figure income is sooo hard.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

You can make 9 billion per year and spend 10 billion and be broke and in debt.

Millionaire simply means they have asset over a million. The point isn't about million being a lot or small amount of money. It's about Americans who are able to accumulate wealth didn't do it by inheritance....contrary to a common myth.

That being said, shut up about million not being a lot of money. Of course it's a lot of money. Do you know anyone close to you with a million dollars laying around?

"La-ser"

 

[xiphoid2010]

You can make 9 billion per year and spend 10 billion and be broke and in debt.

Becoming a millionaire is not hard now a days for people with a middle class income. The hard part is save 20% or more and invest it in income generating assets. But as luck would have it, this country's saving's rate is like 0%. Something are so many things wrong with the mentality of this nation.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

But as luck would have it, this country's saving's rate is like 0%.

Citation, please?

Something are so many things wrong with the mentality of this nation.

You know what I think is wrong? People making up statistics to suit whatever point they are trying to make...

 

[Its Z]

Becoming a millionaire is not hard now a days for people with a middle class income. The hard part is save 20% or more and invest it in income generating assets. But as luck would have it, this country's saving's rate is like 0%. Something are so many things wrong with the mentality of this nation.

It's not hard? Is that right.. if so, then why aren't there more middle class millionaires?

So..what would you consider as middle class income..and what income generating assets will take how long before someone becomes a millionaire?

 

[xiphoid2010]

Citation, please?



You know what I think is wrong? People making up statistics to suit whatever point they are trying to make...

Here, have a citation. Savings rate has been around 0% for a very long time (and even negative), although it might now improved a bit with people hopefully learning a bit from this recession.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-july-savings-rate-falls-to-negative-06

So please don't be so fast to accuse. I do know a few things here and there.

 

[Charlemagne]

You can make 9 billion per year and spend 10 billion and be broke and in debt.

Millionaire simply means they have asset over a million. The point isn't about million being a lot or small amount of money. It's about Americans who are able to accumulate wealth didn't do it by inheritance....contrary to a common myth.

That being said, shut up about million not being a lot of money. Of course it's a lot of money. Do you know anyone close to you with a million dollars laying around?

Actually, once you reach the billion mark, it becomes surprisingly difficult to run out of money since there are only so many things you can buy until you run across items that are tax-deductible (property, etc.)

Of course, you could always buy massive quantities of illicit substances and hold "speed ball parties" but I don't think that was the focus of the post.

 

[Its Z]

Here, have a citation. Savings rate has been around 0% for a very long time (and even negative), although it might now improved a bit with people hopefully learning a bit from this recession.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-july-savings-rate-falls-to-negative-06

So please don't be so fast to accuse. I do know a few things here and there.

And the same report says otherwise.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us...higher-in-may-2010-06-28?reflink=MW_news_stmp

 

[Its Z]

Actually, once you reach the billion mark, it becomes surprisingly difficult to run out of money since there are only so many things you can buy until you run across items that are tax-deductible (property, etc.)

Of course, you could always buy massive quantities of illicit substances and hold "speed ball parties" but I don't think that was the focus of the post.

Well, I wouldn't know. But I do know how easily assets can disappear. But I did read $300 million mark puts people at ease about money where they don't worry about it.. btw, how would a property be tax deductible if you paid cash for it?

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Here, have a citation. Savings rate has been around 0% for a very long time (and even negative), although it might now improved a bit with people hopefully learning a bit from this recession.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-july-savings-rate-falls-to-negative-06

So please don't be so fast to accuse. I do know a few things here and there.

Thanks for the citation, although I would have liked to see something a little more recent.

It seemed to me that the point you were trying to make is that no one in this country saves (0% savings rate). Perhaps I misunderstood.

I understand the ratio between personal debt and personal savings and how the majority of individuals will have negative net worth due to high debt. But that ratio doesn't take into account so called "good debt" such as mortgages or debt that is an investment that might produce future earnings (student loan debt or business debt).

I still think the point you are trying to make is simplistic and flat out incorrect. "Millionaire" status is NOT easily within reach of the majority of middle class individuals in this country and the solution is not as simple as "work hard" and "save more money."

 

[All4MyDaughter]

And the same report says otherwise.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us...higher-in-may-2010-06-28?reflink=MW_news_stmp

Well, I wondered why he/she didn't cite a more recent reference... now I know!

 

[SHC1984]

It's not hard? Is that right.. if so, then why aren't there more middle class millionaires?

So..what would you consider as middle class income..and what income generating assets will take how long before someone becomes a millionaire?

You could become a millionaire if you live like a college student for 5 years and save up most of your paycheck during those years! I am assuming you don't have any kids or wife to support though. If you were single and are willing to live very verrrrry frugally for 5 years you could be a millionaire or multimillionaire.

 

[xiphoid2010]

It's not hard? Is that right.. if so, then why aren't there more middle class millionaires?

So..what would you consider as middle class income..and what income generating assets will take how long before someone becomes a millionaire?

Over all, US population compared to many other countries has a very poor saving's behavior. Many asian countries, even though poorer, have savings rate in the teens.

Middle class income differ by area so you can go look up median incomes in an area and that will give you a ball park figure. Let's for example sake say $50K a year for a 25 yo single with a B.S degree. Save $10K/yr (20%) and invest in something that return 7% a year. You'll have $1 million in 30 years. Of course that's not factoring in any pay increase/promotion and inflation, or company matching if 401(k).

 

[Its Z]

Well, I wondered why he/she didn't cite a more recent reference... now I know!

In the grand scheme of things....like chronology of history of Earth.. 5 years is fairly recent.

 

[phathead]

Thanks for the citation, although I would have liked to see something a little more recent.

It seemed to me that the point you were trying to make is that no one in this country saves (0% savings rate). Perhaps I misunderstood.

I understand the ratio between personal debt and personal savings and how the majority of individuals will have negative net worth due to high debt. But that ratio doesn't take into account so called "good debt" such as mortgages or debt that is an investment that might produce future earnings (student loan debt or business debt).

I still think the point you are trying to make is simplistic and flat out incorrect. "Millionaire" status is NOT easily within reach of the majority of middle class individuals in this country and the solution is not as simple as "work hard" and "save more money."

We covered this pretty in-depth in one of my finance classes last fall. The savings rate did dip to a negative number in '06 and has come close to 0 several times the past few years. It has, however, steadily climbed in part due to the media attention given to it when it went negative and partially due to the economic problems we've had.

EDIT: Found the link from the BEA.gov site. Line 18 in the table is the more accurate figure

http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/Nipa-Frb.asp

 

[phathead]

Over all, US population compared to many other countries has a very poor saving's behavior. Many asian countries, even though poorer, have savings rate in the teens.

Middle class income differ by area so you can go look up median incomes in an area and that will give you a ball park figure. Let's for example sake say $50K a year for a 25 yo single with a B.S degree. Save $10K/yr (20%) and invest in something that return 7% a year. You'll have $1 million in 30 years. Of course that's not factoring in any pay increase/promotion and inflation, or company matching if 401(k).

Everyone should take a basic finance class to learn about investing in the stock market or money markets or funds etc. There's a lot of way to make good steady money, people just don't realize it.

 

[owlegrad]

You could become a millionaire if you live like a college student for 5 years and save up most of your paycheck during those years! I am assuming you don't have any kids or wife to support though. If you were single and are willing to live very verrrrry frugally for 5 years you could be a millionaire or multimillionaire.

You would have to save 200,000 dollars a year to become a millionair within 5 years. What am I missing here? How many people can clear 200,000 dollars a year?

 

[SHC1984]

Well, I wouldn't know. But I do know how easily assets can disappear. But I did read $300 million mark puts people at ease about money where they don't worry about it.. btw, how would a property be tax deductible if you paid cash for it?

I have also heard that once you make over 50K a year money will no longer bring happiness. So someone that makes 300K a year will not be any happier then someone making 50K a year? That's hard to believe, but that's what I heard.

 

[DrPepsi]

Why don't you go look at the us debt clock? Personal savings debt is going DOWN, not UP.

 

[Its Z]

Over all, US population compared to many other countries has a very poor saving's behavior. Many asian countries, even though poorer, have savings rate in the teens.

Middle class income differ by area so you can go look up median incomes in an area and that will give you a ball park figure. Let's for example sake say $50K a year for a 25 yo single with a B.S degree. Save $10K/yr (20%) and invest in something that return 7% a year. You'll have $1 million in 30 years. Of course that's not factoring in any pay increase/promotion and inflation, or company matching if 401(k).

Save for 30 years to become a millionaire? I wouldn't call doing something for 30 years "easy."

 

[phathead]

Why don't you go look at the us debt clock? Personal savings debt is going DOWN, not UP.

I just proved otherwise

It's gone up in recent years, but as a whole over the last several decades it is down

 

[phathead]

You would have to save 200,000 dollars a year to become a millionair within 5 years. What am I missing here? How many people can clear 200,000 dollars a year?

One word: Pimp

 

[rxlea]

One word: Pimp

Mafia

 

[SHC1984]

You would have to save 200,000 dollars a year to become a millionair within 5 years. What am I missing here? How many people can clear 200,000 dollars a year?

Okay maybe 10 years. I am talking about Z here though and I know he makes enough to be able to save a lot if he choose to is what I mean.

As a pharmacist if you are single and stay single forever, you could become a millionaire in 15 to 20 years. If you save like 50% to 60% of your paycheck though.

 

[SHC1984]

That being said, shut up about million not being a lot of money. Of course it's a lot of money. Do you know anyone close to you with a million dollars laying around?

A million dollars is a lot of money and hard to come by (unless you are born with it). But it is not enough to retire on though. A person would need about 10 million dollars if he or she wants to quit his or her job and never work again.

 

[Its Z]

Everyone should take a basic finance class to learn about investing in the stock market or money markets or funds etc. There's a lot of way to make good steady money, people just don't realize it.

And how many of these finance class teachers are millionaires?

Let me spell out some common folklores...

go to school and get an education...you'll be ok
save and invest...you'll be ok

Truth is financial freedom requires more than education and/or steady investing strategy. Just ask the boomers what happened to their retirement accounts.

Quickest and easiest way to accumulate wealth is through residual income generating business..and typically these don't require 30 years of building up to it. It can happen quickly... 3 to 5 years.

 

[Its Z]

A million dollars is a lot of money and hard to come by (unless you are born with it). But it is not enough to retire on though. A person would need about 10 million dollars if he or she wants to quit his or her job and never work again.

My goal isn't to save 10 million dollars, dear. But it's to "make" 10+ million dollars..

There's a difference.

 

[owlegrad]

Okay maybe 10 years. I am talking about Z here though and I know he makes enough to be able to save a lot if he choose to is what I mean.

As a pharmacist if you are single and stay single forever, you could become a millionaire in 15 to 20 years. If you save like 50% to 60% of your paycheck though.

So all you have to do is save 50% of your paycheck and not have a wife/kids? Sign me up! Does it help if I grow my own food?

Maybe I missed a step, but when did we start talking about whether or not someone with a six figure income can become a millionaire? Of course they can. I thought we were talking about if the average joe can become a millionaire. Yes he can but it's highly unlikely. And mostly luck.

 

[phathead]

And how many of these finance class teachers are millionaires?

Let me spell out some common folklores...

go to school and get an education...you'll be ok
save and invest...you'll be ok

Truth is financial freedom requires more than education and/or steady investing strategy. Just ask the boomers what happened to their retirement accounts.

Quickest and easiest way to accumulate wealth is through residual income generating business..and typically these don't require 30 years of building up to it. It can happen quickly... 3 to 5 years.

I never said they'd be millionaires, just that it's good to save money. Watch who you're going after there as I was trying to help you out.

EDIT: My finance prof did make a quick $400k on two stocks in the last two years

 

[All4MyDaughter]

So all you have to do is save 50% of your paycheck and not have a wife/kids? Sign me up! Does it help if I grow my own food?

Yes, it will help but it might be difficult since you'll be living in the bus station b/c you don't want to pay housing costs. You would do better to eat off the Wendy's dollar menu. You can have one item/day without breaking your budget. Good luck!!!

 

[Its Z]

I have also heard that once you make over 50K a year money will no longer bring happiness. So someone that makes 300K a year will not be any happier then someone making 50K a year? That's hard to believe, but that's what I heard.

Let me tell you that happiness really isn't determined by income...tho I don't think being poor brings happiness. But not having to worry about money is a great feeling.

 

[SHC1984]

So all you have to do is save 50% of your paycheck and not have a wife/kids? Sign me up! Does it help if I grow my own food?

Maybe I missed a step, but when did we start talking about whether or not someone with a six figure income can become a millionaire? Of course they can. I thought we were talking about if the average joe can become a millionaire. Yes he can but it's highly unlikely. And mostly luck.

Very true. About 6 months ago I would totally disagree with you and WVU about this topic but now I am begining to see the diffculty of saving money. Especially after working at Walgreens for $9.75 an hour.

 

[owlegrad]

A million dollars is a lot of money and hard to come by (unless you are born with it). But it is not enough to retire on though. A person would need about 10 million dollars if he or she wants to quit his or her job and never work again.

Do you make this stuff up as you go along? Many people will not make one million dollars in their lifetime. Put that money in the bank and try to live off the interest! Ether your quality of life is so high it's what I dream about at night, or you have no concept of money.

 

[xiphoid2010]

Well, I wondered why he/she didn't cite a more recent reference... now I know!

Again, I stated that people have learned a few things after getting hammered by this recession. This a recent reaction, and is abysmal even now.

Here, let's take a more complete picture, shall me?

http://www.davemanuel.com/2010/03/01/a-history-of-personal-savings-rates-in-the-united-states/

And I quote:
"As a matter of fact, the savings rate of the average American held steady during the recession of the early '90s, and then proceeded to fall like a stone throughout the rest of the decade.

By January 2000, the average savings rate was 3.5% - it would end up falling below 1.0% multiple times between 2000 and 2010."

So again, you see, that you have saving's rate has been closer to 0% for much of the last decade, even with the recent knee jerk savings response.

 

[Its Z]

I never said they'd be millionaires, just that it's good to save money. Watch who you're going after there as I was trying to help you out.

EDIT: My finance prof did make a quick $400k on two stocks in the last two years

I aint attacking you fool.. but I feel that finance teachers are kinda like fortune tellers. Obviously fortune tellers really can't tell their fortunes as vast majority of finance teachers aren't financially independent. If I want to know how to make money, I would learn from people who's made money.. like Sam Walton.. Bill Gates... etc.

 

[owlegrad]

Very true. About 6 months ago I would totally disagree with you and WVU about this topic but now I am begining to see the diffculty of saving money. Especially after working at Walgreens for $9.75 an hour.

My attitude about money changed drastically after I started earning it. I am sure this is true for most people.

 

[phathead]

Again, I stated that people have learned a few things after getting hammered by this recession. This a recent reaction, and is abysmal even now.

Here, let's take a more complete picture, shall me?

http://www.davemanuel.com/2010/03/01/a-history-of-personal-savings-rates-in-the-united-states/

And I quote:
"As a matter of fact, the savings rate of the average American held steady during the recession of the early '90s, and then proceeded to fall like a stone throughout the rest of the decade.

By January 2000, the average savings rate was 3.5% - it would end up falling below 1.0% multiple times between 2000 and 2010."

So again, you see, that you have saving's rate has been closer to 0% for much of the last decade, even with the recent knee jerk savings response.

Again, all the hard data is in the link I provided.

It was in a downward trend long before the recession. I don't think it is a knee jerk response to the recession, but I don't think you'll see it as low as you once did.

 

[SHC1984]

Do you make this stuff up as you go along? Many people will not make one million dollars in their lifetime. Put that money in the bank and try to live off the interest! Ether your quality of life is so high it's what I dream about at night, or you have no concept of money.

One million dollar isn't enough for you to retire. If you buy a house there goes 1/3 to 1/2 of it already. Take out more for your car. If you have kids then there goes all of it in a few years. And we haven't even talked about the monthly bills yet.

If you are like 70 years old then one million would be enough, but if you are 22 years old and just graduated college with nothing else then no way can you survive on one million dollars for you entire life.

 

[phathead]

I aint attacking you fool.. but I feel that finance teachers are kinda like fortune tellers. Obviously fortune tellers really can't tell their fortunes as vast majority of finance teachers aren't financially independent. If I want to know how to make money, I would learn from people who's made money.. like Sam Walton.. Bill Gates... etc.

Don't call me a fool, I was just pointing out something.

All I was saying is that for the average person it is good to take a finance class to you are AWARE of different ways to save and invest your money to secure a good future.

Sam Walton and Bill Gates are the exception, and you cannot use them to learn how to make your own millions. If you really wanna look up to someone, look up to Warren Buffet. That man is a financial genius.