Sorry I don't get your point. It sounds like you also had a heavy workload. I really don't care who works harder but the fact remains that on average I have more work than US students. It's not really debatable I have done a rotation in the states and have friends and family in medicine there. Personally I would love to work less and have more time to "read on my down time" as everyone on SDN always seems to recommend. I know there is a culture in medicine to brag/complain about how much you work and how sleep deprived you are which is quite twisted. I just really dislike the OCD, competitive, everyone-is-an-idiot-except-me attitude in medicine; the future seems bleak to me right now. Do you think if I do my residency at a community hospital the prevalence of Schaudenfraude is lower?
I hate residents
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Sorry I don't get your point. It sounds like you also had a heavy workload. I really don't care who works harder but the fact remains that on average I have more work than US students. It's not really debatable I have done a rotation in the states and have friends and family in medicine there. Personally I would love to work less and have more time to "read on my down time" as everyone on SDN always seems to recommend. I know there is a culture in medicine to brag/complain about how much you work and how sleep deprived you are which is quite twisted. I just really dislike the OCD, competitive, everyone-is-an-idiot-except-me attitude in medicine; the future seems bleak to me right now. Do you think if I do my residency at a community hospital the prevalence of Schaudenfraude is lower?
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It sounds like you are assuming that you are working harder than most US medical students. Assumption does not make it so. Ditto having done a rotation at one institution in the US does not make it the rule. Sure there are some places and some specialties that have down time but I have not seen much of it even on psych and neurology. On neuro call, we had back to back admits the entire time and did not even make it out of the ER for dinner. Other students on the same service, did not have even one admission. Sometimes, it is just luck of the draw. Reading is often a luxury in 3rd year.
There are just some institutions and even some departments (surgery v. medicine v. OB/GYN) within the same institutions that have different rules and expectations. Your experience in the US while easier than what you experienced in Canada might well have been the team you were working with. Another student the following month might have had a hellish experience.
I will grant you that at many institutions, medical students in the US are not permitted to dictate discharge summaries due to medico-legal reasons. That being said, there are plenty of students who still type them up for their interns, residents to read into the dictation system. Just because they do not have a dictation code does not mean that they are not doing the work. Similarly, there are plenty of places where students write extremely long progress notes to only have the attending and residents write, agree with above plan.
I agree that there is a dog-eat-dog attitude at times in the medical profession and almost a compulsion to demonstrate how much smarter and harder working we are then our peers but Acherona, you seem to have accidentally fallen into this as well by your previous posts.
No I am not assuming anything as I have first and second hand experience whereas the people posting here I'm guessing have neither for canadian medical education. Pretty much everyone I know from my school who has done a rotation in the states has said the workload is not comparable and neither is the responsibility. You people seem to be insulted by this fact for some reason (the most likely being this weird obsession with bragging about working hard). Honestly it is astounding that you keep arguing the point when you have zero knowledge about it! You should appreciate your non-malignant education and quit trying to project your own neuroses on other people's benign comments about something completely unrelated.
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You have done only one rotation in the US. One rotation is hardly enough to claim that you have first hand experience of US medical education. Most of your rotations have been in Canada. You and those people you knew from your school who rotated in the States may have been fortunate enough to get cushy hospitals. Not all hospitals are like that in the states, I can assure you, not by a long shot. And if everyone else is obsessing about working hard, so are you. You have told us at least three times that you work harder than most US med students. Then you complain when other posters claim they work hard as well. And you wonder why other posters are insulted by you? I have news for you. In every med school, med students work hard. It doesn't matter whether the school is in the US, Canada, UK, India, or Uzbekistan.Granted, there may be a few slackers in every med school, but the majority of med students worldwide work hard.
My two cents: Shrug, if you say so. I've done rotations at 7 different hospitals and all were drastically different in terms of my patient load, responsibility, reading time, patient population, work hours and workload. Hospital location, hospital volume, and hospital environment were large factors as well as 3rd vs 4th year (everything seems to suggest that 4th year electives are much easier than 3rd year required rotations) and nature of the rotation. I woudln't be surprised if country also had an impact on all that and you were right on that account. However, I would be surprised if the truth is as cut and dry as it seems to you, though. I hear similar things all the time about my school and don't believe em.
Actually no. In Europe the med students do much less. I did a rotation there and met students from many different european countries. It is much more observational. The workday is 9-5.
This is why Americans are reviled outside of the US. Your confidence in your knowledge of the outside world is not at all commensurate with your experience.
This was only in response to people attacking me for making some offhand comment about how I was as busy as the interns. And I do obsess about working hard: I'd like to avoid it.
What do you want me to say. Okay there is zero difference between the two systems? Happy now?
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That's why everyone celebrates the quality of your health care system, and so many Canadian physicians are world-renowned leaders in their respective fields.
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People are just trying to caution you against making sweeping generalizations based on your n=1 experience.
I certainly wasn't attacking you. There are many variables that go into the student experience on a particular rotation: residents, time of year (i.e. summer vs. winter for trauma or RSV season for peds), attending preferences, etc.
Overall, I think my experience was a pretty average one for most med students. I think being as busy as the interns is pretty common for med students worth their salt. I base this on my experience rotating at 10 hospitals as a student, conversations with people I met on the interview trail, and now my experience as a resident at a different program. I concede that there are many, many medical schools in the U.S.; my experience is just a drop in the bucket and may not be representative.
You are free to disagree with my n=1 personal experience as well, but by continually arguing you are actually espousing the attitude you claim to despise.
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I didn't read through this whole thread because I kinda tasted throw up in my mouth after the first page. It shouldn't be medical students against residents and vice versa.
First, remember that in a few years YOU are going to be a resident. Remember what it felt like to be treated with disrespect and do not repeat.
Second, most of the time the residents are trying their best to stay above the water and just get the job done without hurting anyone. They may notice your good work but might not give you praise. Medicine is very rewarding but, often you don't get a pat on the back for a job well done. If you need to be reassured of how you are doing then you went into the wrong field.
Third, just ask for feedback. Instead of waiting for someone to tell you how you are doing, ASK. You are an adult. And, be ready to hear bad things along with the good. No one is perfect and even if you think you are providing the team with enlightenment with your intelligence, chances are that many of your fellow meds students and/or residents have the same ideas as you.
And last, get over yourself. You are not Gods gift to the team. You are there to learn, your residents are there to learn. You should play nice and get along but, in the end everyone is there to do a job.
First, remember that in a few years YOU are going to be a resident. Remember what it felt like to be treated with disrespect and do not repeat.
Second, most of the time the residents are trying their best to stay above the water and just get the job done without hurting anyone. They may notice your good work but might not give you praise. Medicine is very rewarding but, often you don't get a pat on the back for a job well done. If you need to be reassured of how you are doing then you went into the wrong field.
Third, just ask for feedback. Instead of waiting for someone to tell you how you are doing, ASK. You are an adult. And, be ready to hear bad things along with the good. No one is perfect and even if you think you are providing the team with enlightenment with your intelligence, chances are that many of your fellow meds students and/or residents have the same ideas as you.
And last, get over yourself. You are not Gods gift to the team. You are there to learn, your residents are there to learn. You should play nice and get along but, in the end everyone is there to do a job.
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Okay, okay, fine, systems of medical education throughout the world vary in how hard they work their students. Maybe they have different philosophies on med student education.
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I didn't say there was zero difference between the two systems. My argument was directed at your assumption that US med students don't work as hard as Canadian ones because they hardly did any work at the one hospital you rotated at. That's like saying that all tall people are rich because you knew a wealthy guy who happened to be tall.
There are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of hospitals in the US. Some hospitals have really cushy med student rotations, others have rotations that work them to the bone. How hard students have to work in the US varies according to which school, hospital, or rotation they are in.
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Wow- Acherona. You seem to have a lot of pent up anger. I am sorry if you feel like you are working too hard and that you are not appreciated. It sucks and we have all been there despite what you may think.
We generally try to be supportive of one another on this site but at times, statements like the ones you have posted make it difficult. You keep insisting that we are bragging about working hard but you keep insisting how much harder you work than US students. Everyone is working hard. Even if you believe you are putting in more hours a day or week (which may or may not be accurate), why try to denegrate the experiences and feelings of others. What does that prove? Congratulations you are working more hours and carrying more patients than some US students.
So? Even if this was true, does that mean you are better trained and learning more as seems to be what you are implying? Or are you just a better scutmonkey for the residents?
As Dr. Dre mentioned, you are completely missing the point that others are trying to make- namely, that your personal experience (n=1) and even the experience of your friends/family (even if it is n=50+) does not make it okay to generalize stating that all programs/medical school in the US or Europe etc are easier than what you are experiencing in Canada and that by extension, all Canadian programs are harder than US or European programs.
You are also assuming that posters have no experience with Canadian rotations. As you said yourself, you were guessing. I do know individuals who have rotated in Canada. I know attendings who trained in Canada. I have also heard numerous comments from such individuals that the level of training in Canada is not the same as the US and that they felt US students were better trained and able to manage patients. You remarked that Americans are reviled in the world and as Tired quipped, even if that is the case, there is a reason why people choose to come to the US for healthcare instead of other countries (including Canada and the UK). However, I do not base my opinion of the Canadian health system or medical education on their collective experiences. Moreover, were I to do a rotation myself in Canada working with one team of students, residents and attendings, I would never extrapolate the personalities and work ethics of those individuals to demonstrate the incredible brillance and hard work of entire collection the Canadian students as compared to US ones or the mediocre quality of Canadian medical schools as compared to their US counterparts either. Nor would I assume that if the work is more than what I was used to that it must be so in all Canadian hospitals and departments. It is simply unfair to all concerned. I would not dream of trashing the Canadian system and intimating that my training and capabilities are superior to yours.
You also noted that people were getting upset by your comments that US students felt insulted that you were pointing out the workload and responsibility is superior to what occurs in the states. This is because you do not know what we have experienced on our rotations. Many of us have tried to express that it is very team dependent and will vary tremendously within the same institution and within the same department. Perhaps you have not experienced as much variation in your program so allow us to enlighten you. Some attendings will sit back and let you completely run with the ball, writing all orders, meds, doing all procedures (LPs, paracentesis etc) and things needed for the patients (including arranging for follow up care, discharge instructions and orders, discharge summaries) and merely be on hand (often after the fact) in a supervisory role. other words, you are functioning at the level of an intern or higher. Sometimes there are no residents on a team. Sometimes there are too many residents on a team. Other times attendings will take a more direct role in the patient care and student and resident involvement is more limited.
You are also assuming that US programs and our educational process is non-malignant as you put it. This is also not always the case. As you can glean from some of the comments on SDN, there are plenty of horrible experiences and malignant residents/attendings and rotations. If you doubt this, you might be surprised at some of the M&Ms we have seen.
If you meant that our peers are non-malignant, I am pleased to agree. I am proud that my medical school class supports one another for the most part and is not trying to make one another look bad. If the culture of your program permits backstabbing behavior and one-upsmanship, perhaps you should look home and make changes there. Start a trend of professionalism where such behavior is unacceptable and frowned upon and maybe you will help cultivate a less malignant environment for yourself and those you follow in your footsteps.
As an aside, if you don't want to work hard, why on earth did you chose the field of medicine? There are easier ways to make money and even easier ways to help people if money is no object.
But it is true that med students in Europe don't work as hard as med students in North America. I've met and worked with many students from all over Europe and they can't even fathom call and weekends. Med school is for learning, residency and beyond is for working (just echoing their sentiment).
I was pretty sure everyone knew this sweeping generalisation to be true.
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Quit it man, you're making us look bad....
Having just completed a Canadian medical education I can say, from first hand experience, med school was pretty chilled. I think that has alot to do with the fact that the prime determinant in how we match to residency spots is our letters of reference obtatined during clerkship. Grades don't have much of an impact (more of a red flag for programs if you fail something), and we don't have any standardized tests like the USMLE (not that I think these are very useful, but that's something else altogether). Basically, you do an elective somewhere, they like you and you aren't an idiot, you get a good letter, you have a good shot at their program. Toss in a bit of research and you're golden.
To balance the "chilled" view of med school in the great white north, I must say that many classmates more intelligenter than I would strongly disagree with my assessment. The top student in my class constantly groans about "not having enough time" and "not knowing enough". She, quite frankly, is insane. But there are lots of insane med students.
Obviously, this is also an n=1 assessment. Can't fairly assess how things are at other Canadian schools I did electives at because I'm a bone jock so I worked my tail off on all my electives.
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I don't know how this turned into a US-vs-Canada debate.
Acherona and I have extensively compared our med school experiences and mine was far, far more benign than hers is. I had less work overall, my residents were nicer, and more attention was paid to my learning needs. (I attended a well-regarded US med school.) I don't know whether this has to do with US vs Canada or whether it's just the difference between our particular two schools, but she's not kidding when she says the students at her school get worked.
That's Schadenfreude.
Acherona and I have extensively compared our med school experiences and mine was far, far more benign than hers is. I had less work overall, my residents were nicer, and more attention was paid to my learning needs. (I attended a well-regarded US med school.) I don't know whether this has to do with US vs Canada or whether it's just the difference between our particular two schools, but she's not kidding when she says the students at her school get worked.
That's Schadenfreude.
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I don't know how this turned into a US-vs-Canada debate.
Acherona and I have extensively compared our med school experiences and mine was far, far more benign than hers is. I had less work overall, my residents were nicer, and more attention was paid to my learning needs. (I attended a well-regarded US med school.) I don't know whether this has to do with US vs Canada or whether it's just the difference between our particular two schools, but she's not kidding when she says the students at her school get worked.
That's Schadenfreude.
If you are wondering about the origins of this deep-seated, bitter conflict then I refer you to a fine, Oscar-winning documentary which illustrates the suffering Americans have endured at the hands of the hated Canadian extremists in exquisite detail. This beautiful, historically accurate film is called "South Park: Bigger, Longer, and Uncut" and is available at your local Blockbuster outlet.
Here's a little something to bring the original topic back.
Just had a senior family med resident (yeah foreign grad, and borderline ******ed) ask me to do a hemoccult test on a lady complaining of a tailbone ulceration. I laughed n walked away (just happen 5 minutest ago). Gotta love the "4th year slide".
Cheers graduating/graduated senior med schoolers.
Just had a senior family med resident (yeah foreign grad, and borderline ******ed) ask me to do a hemoccult test on a lady complaining of a tailbone ulceration. I laughed n walked away (just happen 5 minutest ago). Gotta love the "4th year slide".
Cheers graduating/graduated senior med schoolers.
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Yes. I am at USF. Great place.
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This is probably why you can get away with some of the actions you described. At my school, this would never fly, not in a million years. We even get evaluated by the interns.
So much of third year (and residency, i imagine) is a return to what we learned in kindergarten. ie-Can you work well with others or not.
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I thought this was true of med students during my third year. Residents were usually ok, but just busy. It was the other students who I thought were very competitive and cutthroat and who I experienced the most hostility with. It was hard to keep quiet when a classmate would criticise me on rounds or try and 'point out my errors' to attendings. I really struggled with that, but sometimes the residents would tell them to knock it off and that would make me feel better.
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I'm also guilty of not reading this whole thread so forgive me if the following statements have been put forth already. Without targeting anyone with my comments, I will just give an example.
During pediatrics I worked with a few interns 6 months into the year. One of whom was great and knew a lot, confident, and seemed to get all his work done at a fairly reasonable time and left. The other one "worked hard" - in fact, while pre-rounding, I noted in the chart that he signed a note of his at 1am on his call day (call ends around 7pm). I told him he was working pretty hard and he replied "nah, i'm usually here late anyways. sometimes til 11pm-12am on non-call days". This made me wonder whether it was really that he was hard working or just slow. Over the next few weeks, I realized it was the latter. Not only was he a slow resident, he was inefficient and not on top of anything at all.
So comparing the two interns, the first one did not appear to be "working hard" nor did he stay as late as the 2nd resident. But the first had more knowledge about pediatrics, about his patients, etc while the first one was always confused. Working hard doesn't mean anything if it means inefficient.
As a side note, I later saw this intern a few months later while I was doing Ob/Gyn, and after the delivery of the infant, he still seemed confused and flustered. Almost a year later and still that same "hard working" intern was not equal to his peers.
During pediatrics I worked with a few interns 6 months into the year. One of whom was great and knew a lot, confident, and seemed to get all his work done at a fairly reasonable time and left. The other one "worked hard" - in fact, while pre-rounding, I noted in the chart that he signed a note of his at 1am on his call day (call ends around 7pm). I told him he was working pretty hard and he replied "nah, i'm usually here late anyways. sometimes til 11pm-12am on non-call days". This made me wonder whether it was really that he was hard working or just slow. Over the next few weeks, I realized it was the latter. Not only was he a slow resident, he was inefficient and not on top of anything at all.
So comparing the two interns, the first one did not appear to be "working hard" nor did he stay as late as the 2nd resident. But the first had more knowledge about pediatrics, about his patients, etc while the first one was always confused. Working hard doesn't mean anything if it means inefficient.
As a side note, I later saw this intern a few months later while I was doing Ob/Gyn, and after the delivery of the infant, he still seemed confused and flustered. Almost a year later and still that same "hard working" intern was not equal to his peers.
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Ugh...I spent the whole year trying to be nice. And these kinds of quotes are what makes me SO GLAD I'm going into Path
You might eat me for breakfast, but I'll NEVER EVER again take in-house call after medical school. I'll probably work half the time you will.
So enjoy being a petty tyrant, and enjoy your miserable life.
In absolute agreement. Hooray Path!
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Reading this thread, I'll keep in mind to try to be nice to all of my med students and try to teach them something. I won't make them stand around all day and try to give them some feedback. Just go easy on me in my first months of internship! 
We do remember what it was like. Residency is just very busy so there's sometimes where things fall thru the cracks.
My pet peeve is med students treating other med students like dirt. That just sucks. Don't do it.
Bottom line: Show up on time, smile some, read a little and we'll make the best of it!
We do remember what it was like. Residency is just very busy so there's sometimes where things fall thru the cracks.
My pet peeve is med students treating other med students like dirt. That just sucks. Don't do it.
Bottom line: Show up on time, smile some, read a little and we'll make the best of it!
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Must you be so brusque? Chill out, damn.
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Just go easy on me in my first months of internship!
We do remember what it was like. Residency is just very busy so there's sometimes where things fall thru the cracks.
Bottom line: Show up on time, smile some, read a little and we'll make the best of it!
Wait a second. Have you even started residency yet?
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I have a friend who began her first rotation in surgery a couple of weeks ago. She didn't have any preconceived notions about the relationships that she would have with her residents; however, she is finding her situation to be a little more than hostile. The residents abuse her - verbally and actually physically. They quite literally push her around. What do you guys think about this behavior, and is there anything that she should do?
What would you do in her situation?
What would you do in her situation?
B
Blade28
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Talk to other students to see if this has been a problem for them as well. Talk to the clerkship director. After that, you've done all you can. So you have to suck it up at that point. And keep working hard.
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June 16th But light month thus far. I am in the VA hospital for Wards and ICU/CCU the next two months starting on the 26th. OH NOES! Got my first paycheck a couple days ago. Made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
But light month thus far. I am in the VA hospital for Wards and ICU/CCU the next two months starting on the 26th. OH NOES! Got my first paycheck a couple days ago. Made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.- Joined
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push back.
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that's just the nature of surgery.
is your friend very small? i only ask because people tend to think they can put their hands all over small people or literally walk right into them.
i was 'moved out of the way' several times by residents during a procedure, but i would never go so far to say i was 'pushed.'
but verbal abuse? oh yeah...lots of yelling and cursing. i guess that's more acceptable than putting someone's head through a wall...haha
yeah. residents can surely suck.
