How many New spots will the be available to MD students due to the Combined Match?

[CopaceticOne]

You clearly don't understand the power of compound interest. Let's say I were to make 300k out of the gate, year 1 post graduation. I invest 80k of my first year earnings at 10% a year (historically speaking) for the next 28 years (I won't have as long of a working life as most of you, given my age). That 80k ends up being worth $1,153,679.49. That's over one million dollars of opportunity cost you're giving up all to tack on "MD" instead of "DO." Personally, I decided that was a poor decision and went DO. And so far, I'm a competitive enough applicant to be an example of (hopefully) why most of these DO spots aren't going to all end up going to MDs. But we'll see. I think some spots (plastics, for instance) will go almost entirely MD, and overall, most of the competitive spots will lose a lot of ground to MDs. But overall, I think DOs that want to match in mid to lower tier specialties will probably fare just fine post-merger, as they'll take about as many spots as we give up in a lot of specialties.

Ok, I'll play - what is your educational debt at the time that you graduate medical school? At what rate will you be paying it off? What are the interest rates of those loans? Unless this answer is zero, you are already worse off than if you hadn't gone to medical school, right? Because realistically you have lost 7 years of this glorious 10% compounding interest as well as continued principle contribution... AND you now have debt on top of the years lost.
Next step - Since you can't sock away all 80k in a tax deferred option, what are the other vehicles that you will use for your investments? How aggressive are you going to be? Willing to lose your principle in the hopes of big returns? What about all of the short/long term capital gains/losses that you'll have to add on to your taxes? Are you managing all this yourself or are you going to have some firm do the work?

Seriously, if you know of something that is giving guaranteed compounded returns of 10% over 28 years I'd love to hear about it.

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[deleted564680]

There are some state DO schools (MSU, TCOM, OUHCOM, Rowan, WVU, OSUCOM) and most DO schools actually do show a geographical bias - especially the newer ones that were established to get people to practice in the rural areas of their state. It's not as finite as a state-sponsored MD school that has to take from certain counties or only that state, but DO schools do the same things.

My point is only that there's some overlap and the stats are closer than many people seem to think or act. These stats are going to get closer and closer too with the merger now. Many applicants will likely choose DO over MD to stay close to home or other various reasons in the coming decade now that everything is ACGME. MD will always be higher though due to those top 30ish schools that are very high.

 

[67552931811]

This thread has really delivered. Somehow turned into a MD/DO dick measuring contest: didn't see that coming.

 

[Mad Jack]

Ok, I'll play - what is your educational debt at the time that you graduate medical school? At what rate will you be paying it off? What are the interest rates of those loans? Unless this answer is zero, you are already worse off than if you hadn't gone to medical school, right? Because realistically you have lost 7 years of this glorious 10% compounding interest as well as continued principle contribution... AND you now have debt on top of the years lost.
Next step - Since you can't sock away all 80k in a tax deferred option, what are the other vehicles that you will use for your investments? How aggressive are you going to be? Willing to lose your principle in the hopes of big returns? What about all of the short/long term capital gains/losses that you'll have to add on to your taxes? Are you managing all this yourself or are you going to have some firm do the work?

Seriously, if you know of something that is giving guaranteed compounded returns of 10% over 28 years I'd love to hear about it.

I've already done the math a hundred ways. It averages out at me breaking even at 57, and being up a just over a net million at 65, adjusted for inflation. Delaying by even one year erases the majority of that, care of compound interest and opportunity loss.

As to the average return, for an 88 year running average, the S&P 500 has run over 10%. If you'd like to see the outcome of literally every time period for the market that ever existed, use FIRECalc, and you can see what the percentage chance of getting a given return is given every single potential market condition that has ever existed in the history of, well, the market.

These are all things you should think about when deciding when, and where, to go to school.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

How do you know any of this? You can't throw around percentages that you pulled out of nowhere

You can say you don't care about the name of the school because your school has no name. You have nothing to lose and a lot to gain. But I know a few of the people who got into top schools and they are ridiculous. It takes a lot to get into medical school to begin with and even more so to get into a top school. The grades, the mcat scores, the research, the school name, the experiences that they have are all incredibly impressive. That's why name matters and will continue to matter. I would take an md with a 220 over a do with a 250 any day. You're in DO school for a reason and it's not because you loved the holistic aspect of omm so much.

Lol wow.


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[Higherprimate]

I agree. HBU or state MDs have a binding contract to select from their pool of residents which is not a good comparison when it comes to stats. In that aspect, it makes the argument quite weak since these private DO schools (essentially all of them) have a much larger pool to select and are still fighting to hit the GPA and MCAT of what most low and some mid tier MD schools (and that's with applicants who utilize grade replacement).

You my friend are obsessed with this grade replacement thing. I believe this is the 3-4 post about grade replacement in the past few days.

 

[AlteredScale]

You my friend are obsessed with this grade replacement thing. I believe this is the 3-4 post about grade replacement in the past few days.

Its because alot of people jump to this idea that GPAs between MD and DO schools and that is not the case because of grade replacement. Now its the 5th time Ive said it

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Its because alot of people jump to this idea that GPAs between MD and DO schools and that is not the case because of grade replacement. Now its the 5th time Ive said it

Pretty sure most people don't utilize grade replacement though. Many undergrads will only allow you to retake a course if you failed. I could bet that the average GPA at DO schools right now wouldn't change too much if they took away grade replacement. It's not like you have half the class retaking 5 Fs and raising their GPA from 2.5 to 3.9.


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[deleted564680]

Its because alot of people jump to this idea that GPAs between MD and DO schools and that is not the case because of grade replacement. Now its the 5th time Ive said it

I honestly think grade replacement happens less than you seem to think it does. I know of my group of friends (n=25ish) that are DOs, none of us had grade replacement and the AACOMAS data showing that 75% of matriculants are age 21-25 would seem to show that at least half probably don't grade replace.

Sure, DO has grade replacement. But, don't forget the thousands of MD students who get into MD school only after a Master's program that boosts them. The DO side just lets people replace core classes instead of forcing as many people into doing a Masters. I don't see why it's seen as such a negative.

 

[Mad Jack]

I honestly think grade replacement happens less than you seem to think it does. I know of my group of friends (n=25ish) that are DOs, none of us had grade replacement and the AACOMAS data showing that 75% of matriculants are age 21-25 would seem to show that at least half probably don't grade replace.

Sure, DO has grade replacement. But, don't forget the thousands of MD students who get into MD school only after a Master's program that boosts them. The DO side just lets people replace core classes instead of forcing as many people into doing a Master's. I don't see why it's seen as such a negative.

I don't know a single classmate that utilized grade replacement personally (granted, I'm not very social). Know a bunch of people that did MCAT retakes, but literally no one that utilized grade replacement.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

I don't know a single classmate that utilized grade replacement personally (granted, I'm not very social). Know a bunch of people that did MCAT retakes, but literally no one that utilized grade replacement.

I don't either. I had a ton of courses from my "pre" premed days where I took a bunch of business courses and got C- in like 6 of them, which lowered my GPA significantly. I wasn't allowed to retake them cause I didn't fail them apparently.


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[AlteredScale]

I honestly think grade replacement happens less than you seem to think it does. I know of my group of friends (n=25ish) that are DOs, none of us had grade replacement and the AACOMAS data showing that 75% of matriculants are age 21-25 would seem to show that at least half probably don't grade replace.

Sure, DO has grade replacement. But, don't forget the thousands of MD students who get into MD school only after a Master's program that boosts them. The DO side just lets people replace core classes instead of forcing as many people into doing a Master's. I don't see why it's seen as such a negative.

That's true but the fact that it does exist...period would probably mean that if you considered the...25% of DO student who replaced a single D or F with a B or A that would def alter that GPA data of each school. I do not believe that in my class of 270 students that only two or three utilized grade replacement.

Don't you think doing decent in undergrad..(say 3.4 GPA) and doing a masters tied down to a med school that boost you to a 3.5 or 3.6 is quite different from actually getting D's and C's and just replacing those grades at a community college?

I never stated grade replacement was a negative. I only addressed it because I agreed with @WedgeDawg that when someone is comparing stats across MD and DO schools and saying they're similar it's just not a solid comparison. You have a plethora of MD students who did it right the first time. They got a good MCAT and a good GPA. Not saying there aren't any DO students who did not do that as well (I know many who had amazing stats) but the fact that the grade replacement is there as a safety means it's hard to make such a comparison.

Pretty sure most people don't utilize grade replacement though. Many undergrads will only allow you to retake a course if you failed. I could bet that the average GPA at DO schools right now wouldn't change too much if they took away grade replacement. It's not like you have half the class retaking 5 Fs and raising their GPA from 2.5 to 3.9.

Well there's really no data I have seen to support the notion that the majority of DO matriculates are NOT using the grade replacement. Also AACOMAS allows you to retake a course that is equivalent at other schools so you can take into account the fact that they have gotten an A in a synonymous course that was essentially less rigorous.

 

[Psai]

Lol wow.


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You're in do school and you didn't even know who AT Still is. Lmao

 

[Psai]

This thread has really delivered. Somehow turned into a MD/DO dick measuring contest: didn't see that coming.

Well when they come in here and try to tell us what they tell themselves at night, that's definitely not going to fly

When the highest averages from do barely compare with the lowest averages, that alone should tell you that it's more than the top 10 to 15 schools that outcompete you. It's more like the top 100 at least

That's not the point though, the point is that admission standards are just part of it. Educational quality, especially in the clinical years, is lacking as well and that's much more important despite all these preallo stats arguments. This is particularly concerning as the clinical years involve quite a bit of self study

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

You're in do school and you didn't even know who AT Still is. Lmao

You're in MD school and can't detect sarcasm.


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[JustSomePreMed]

Way too many of the pro-DO people here are glossing over a major point. Yes, overall the applicant pool is notably week or for DO school versus MD school.

But, even if you were to close that gap and have equal applicant pools, there is a huge divide between the clinical years in DO versus MD school. So much so, that I could never in good conscience recommend DO school to someone wanting to get a good clinical education. As an intern and at times as a resident, I have supervised DO students and also worked with DO interns. The knowledge gap/divide is very palpable. I am sure this has something to do with the fact that many/most DO school rotations involve shadowing/working one-on-one with an attending, without any actual learning how to be a resident and function as a house officer, which is entirely different, and entirely lacking in their curriculum.

This notion that as a medical student working one-on-one with an attending in, say, the operating roomsomehow gives you a leg up or is even on par with an academic center rotation is completely misguided. Unless you are training to be a scrub tech or something similar. The clinical decision-making and management of patients/disease is arguably significantly more important than observing/practicing surgical techniques.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Way too many of the pro-DO people here are glossing over a major point. Yes, overall the applicant pool is notably week or for DO school versus MD school.

But, even if you were to close that gap and have equal applicant pools, there is a huge divide between the clinical years in DO versus MD school. So much so, that I could never in good conscience recommend DO school to someone wanting to get a good clinical education. As an intern and at times as a resident, I have supervised DO students and also worked with DO interns. The knowledge gap/divide is very palpable. I am sure this has something to do with the fact that many/most DO school rotations involve shadowing/working one-on-one with an attending, without any actual learning how to be a resident and function as a house officer, which is entirely different, and entirely lacking in their curriculum.

This notion that as a medical student working one-on-one with an attending in, say, the operating roomsomehow gives you a leg up or is even on par with an academic center rotation is completely misguided. Unless you are training to be a scrub tech or something similar. The clinical decision-making and management of patients/disease is arguably significantly more important than observing/practicing surgical techniques.

I don't think anyone is arguing the point that DO clinical education is better or equal to MD clinical education. I think it is pretty well known that DO schools have sub-par rotations.

 

[235009]

This notion that as a medical student working one-on-one with an attending in, say, the operating roomsomehow gives you a leg up or is even on par with an academic center rotation is completely misguided. Unless you are training to be a scrub tech or something similar. The clinical decision-making and management of patients/disease is arguably significantly more important than observing/practicing surgical techniques.

To build on this...it's not just surgery. This is true for medicine as well. As a student you are following around an attending who makes everything look so easy but they're going through a long differential in their head (i.e. is this really just a copd exacerbation or am I missing a PE?) which isn't explicitly said out loud in the "preceptor" setting but is talked about at length on a resident based team. There is also the medical decision making process that is not modeled for the student: why did we choose one drug over the other? When is it safe to discharge this patient? Etc


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[deleted564680]

My clinical rotations were great. I was tops on your MD boards and I destroy my MD co-residents daily. We don't all suck as you make it seem. If you want to continue to tout your pre-med achievements then fine but know that you have to continue to produce. Show me you were worth that MD you love.

 

[235009]

My clinical rotations were great. I was tops on your MD boards and I destroy my MD co-residents daily. We don't all suck as you make it seem. If you want to continue to tout your pre-med achievements then fine but know that you have to continue to produce. Show me you were worth that MD you love.

I'm concerned you think you're in competition with your co-residents. Either you're in a fairly malignant program or you're missing the point.


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[Psai]

I'm concerned you think you're in competition with your co-residents. Either you're in a fairly malignant program or you're missing the point.


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That's exactly what I was thinking

 

[deleted564680]

I'm concerned you think you're in competition with your co-residents. Either you're in a fairly malignant program or you're missing the point.


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I'm not in competition with them. I aim to be the best I can be and notice I perform better than they do. Medicine isn't for the complacent.

 

[Apoplexy__]

First page of this thread: Mid/low-tier MD students being told they're inferior to top-tier MD students. MD students cry.
Rest of this thread: DO students being told they're inferior to MD students. DO students cry.

Look guys, we found something we can all relate to!

 

[Goro]

Agree 100% with my young colleague. Can the rest of you redirect back to the OP?????? Or are you guys going start a URM thread as well and make poor WedgeDawg pull out even more hair???

BTW, how about them Warriors? Dynasty team or not?

You do realize that this thread isn't about defending DOs. It's about MDs and how they will be affected by changes in the match.

 

[gmbz]

My clinical rotations were great. I was tops on your MD boards and I destroy my MD co-residents daily. We don't all suck as you make it seem. If you want to continue to tout your pre-med achievements then fine but know that you have to continue to produce. Show me you were worth that MD you love.

Where is this residency? I am working on my 'where not to apply' list.

I hope to god my co-residents don't think this when I am with them. "go team!" on three!

 

[GoldenFish]

I'm not in competition with them. I aim to be the best I can be and notice I perform better than they do. Medicine isn't for the complacent.

You sound like an absolutely lovely co-resi

 

[Stagg737]

I agree. HBU or state MDs have a binding contract to select from their pool of residents which is not a good comparison when it comes to stats. In that aspect, it makes the argument quite weak since these private DO schools (essentially all of them) have a much larger pool to select and are still fighting to hit the GPA and MCAT of what most low and some mid tier MD schools (and that's with applicants who utilize grade replacement).

Keep in mind that if you 'open the doors' at state schools to a larger applicant pool, a lot of the people you'd attract would be people that were matriculated at other med schools but would rather attend the state school for whatever reason. So while the averages at the state schools might go up, the averages at other private institutions may also drop. As Wedge said, we can't really compare things that aren't comparable (and require extensive extrapolation).

When the highest averages from do barely compare with the lowest averages, that alone should tell you that it's more than the top 10 to 15 schools that outcompete you. It's more like the top 100 at least

That's not the point though, the point is that admission standards are just part of it. Educational quality, especially in the clinical years, is lacking as well and that's much more important despite all these preallo stats arguments. This is particularly concerning as the clinical years involve quite a bit of self study

Lol at the first sentence. There are numerous DO schools with averages well above the bottom MD schools. Though I'd agree that even the top DO schools are still 'mid-tier' at best when it comes to comparing to MD schools, and there are a few that I personally wonder how they are allowed to stay open...

As for the last paragraph, that's the only argument one even needs to make when comparing the education of graduates and imo the biggest knock against the DO education. I'd say the first two years of my education are actually better than a lot of MD schools after talking to friends at other locations. I'm sure I probably won't be able to say the same after clinical years though.

Agree 100% with my young colleague. Can the rest of you redirect back to the OP?????? Or are you guys going start a URM thread as well and make poor WedgeDawg pull out even more hair???

BTW, how about them Warriors? Dynasty team or not?

WedgeDawg still has hair?

To the original question. How many more positions will be available to MDs? Any of the AOA programs that gain accreditation (so potentially 6,000 more). How many will MDs reasonably be able to match into? Probably most of them. How many will MDs reasonably want to match into? That idk, and is probably the question that this thread should actually be addressing...

 

[235009]

Where is this residency? I am working on my 'where not to apply' list.

I hope to god my co-residents don't think this when I am with them. "go team!" on three!

Unfortunately there are people like this at every program. Important thing is to find a program where they are heavily outnumbered and where the PD/administration does not promote this kind of mentality.

Agree 100% with my young colleague. Can the rest of you redirect back to the OP?????? Or are you guys going start a URM thread as well and make poor WedgeDawg pull out even more hair???

BTW, how about them Warriors? Dynasty team or not?

Here comes @Goro sputtering in trying to shut down discussion about the reality of DO schools and the potential disaster that is the "merger"

....go back to pre-osteo and osteo please where your BS belongs

 

[deleted564680]

So you all don't work hard and try to do the best job you can? I don't do anything to the detriment of my co-residents. In fact, I get along well with everyone. I'm merely saying that I work very hard every day to be the best I can. This "we're all winners" mentality is really catching on I guess.

 

[GoldenFish]

So you all don't work hard and try to do the best job you can? I don't do anything to the detriment of my co-residents. In fact, I get along well with everyone. I'm merely saying that I work very hard every day to be the best I can. This "we're all winners" mentality is really catching on I guess.

It has nothing to do with a "we're all winners" mentality and everything to do with your attitude. Based on your posts and how you appear to see yourself, I'm sure you don't come off as arrogant to anyone, ever, at all. (Yes, that was sarcasm).

Working hard and trying to do your best is about doing your own thing, and not about "noticing that you do a better job" than your co-residents or "destroying" others. Get over yourself.

 

[deleted564680]

It has nothing to do with a "we're all winners" mentality and everything to do with your attitude. Based on your posts and how you appear to see yourself, I'm sure you don't come off as arrogant to anyone, ever, at all. (Yes, that was sarcasm).


Working hard and trying to do your best is about doing your own thing, and not about "noticing that you do a better job" than your co-residents or "destroying" others. Get over yourself.

You never compare yourself to others? Everyone does that.

 

[Goro]

The answer is "we don't know". In 5-10 years, we will. I'll be Professor Emeritus by then, alas.


To the original question. How many more positions will be available to MDs? Any of the AOA programs that gain accreditation (so potentially 6,000 more). How many will MDs reasonably be able to match into? Probably most of them. How many will MDs reasonably want to match into? That idk, and is probably the question that this thread should actually be addressing...[/QUOTE]

 

[tymont12]

You never compare yourself to others? Everyone does that.

Everyone does, but you're discussing it in a way that makes it...gauche.

 

[deleted564680]

It's an online forum. Just being honest. I try to be the best but it's all internal. No resident or attending would say anything negative about me. I don't see anything wrong with working hard and having confidence.
I get what you guys are saying when I used certain terms. I was worked up over all this talk of MDs are better than DOs for life because of pre med stats.

 

[ortnakas]

How did this turn into the premed version of MD vs DO?

To build on this...it's not just surgery. This is true for medicine as well. As a student you are following around an attending who makes everything look so easy but they're going through a long differential in their head (i.e. is this really just a copd exacerbation or am I missing a PE?) which isn't explicitly said out loud in the "preceptor" setting but is talked about at length on a resident based team. There is also the medical decision making process that is not modeled for the student: why did we choose one drug over the other? When is it safe to discharge this patient? Etc


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Totally agree with you that resident-based team rotations are, overall, going to be better than preceptor-based ones; I don't think very many people will argue with you there. I do have had friends who have had good experiences with preceptors who made a point to talk through the differential and medical decision making process with their students, even without residents around. I think in that setting, your education would be on par with the team-based model, but unfortunately, schools often seem to lack the quality control between good preceptors and bad ones (which, clearly, is problematic).

 

[235009]

Totally agree with you that resident-based team rotations are, overall, going to be better than preceptor-based ones; I don't think very many people will argue with you there. I do have had friends who have had good experiences with preceptors who made a point to talk through the differential and medical decision making process with their students, even without residents around. I think in that setting, your education would be on par with the team-based model, but unfortunately, schools often seem to lack the quality control between good preceptors and bad ones (which, clearly, is problematic).

You may find a lot of people who talk up the preceptor based model or report good experiences because it tends to be a lot less stressful, less pressure, less time intensive (you get out earlier), and less structured (more time to self-study and do well on the exam). While all these are valued by the typical medical student (you'll see US MD students trying to pick similar rotations, if available, for fields they have no interest in) they do not provide good clinical education.

 

[Dr. Death]

Unfortunately there are people like this at every program. Important thing is to find a program where they are heavily outnumbered and where the PD/administration does not promote this kind of mentality.



Here comes @Goro sputtering in trying to shut down discussion about the reality of DO schools and the potential disaster that is the "merger"

....go back to pre-osteo and osteo please where your BS belongs

DO schools need a bigger disaster than this.

 

[JustSomePreMed]

You may find a lot of people who talk up the preceptor based model or report good experiences because it tends to be a lot less stressful, less pressure, less time intensive (you get out earlier), and less structured (more time to self-study and do well on the exam). While all these are valued by the typical medical student (you'll see US MD students trying to pick similar rotations, if available, for fields they have no interest in) they do not provide good clinical education.

Bingo.

 

[Mad Jack]

DO schools need a bigger disaster than this.

Need a disaster? What does that even mean lol.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

You may find a lot of people who talk up the preceptor based model or report good experiences because it tends to be a lot less stressful, less pressure, less time intensive (you get out earlier), and less structured (more time to self-study and do well on the exam). While all these are valued by the typical medical student (you'll see US MD students trying to pick similar rotations, if available, for fields they have no interest in) they do not provide good clinical education.

I most commonly see students talk up the preceptor model in the context of their surgery rotation...usually some variation on "I got to first assist on so many surgeries instead of just triple scrubbing while some pesky resident gets to operate"

It is, as you note, a completely short sighted perspective although I can understand why it appeals to students (pushes their immediate gratification and special snowflake buttons).

But the purpose of a surgery clerkship isn't to first assist on a bunch of lap choles and hernias.

 

[Dr. Death]

Need a disaster? What does that even mean lol.

>10 schools closing, the other schools having their class sizes cut because they don't have sufficient clinical education, complex being done away with and OMM being pushed to a fellowship. Many DOs would consider that a disaster but that's what needs to happen to become on par with midtier MDs

 

[deleted564680]

I actually don't like the preceptor model either. However, there many DO schools where that model is not the norm. It's one of the biggest things that annoys me about DO/MD talk. All DOs are treated the same when our clinical years actually range from really good (similar to MD) to really bad (one on one mostly shadowing preceptorships).

This thread has some info on some DO schools' rotations: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/clinical-rotations-by-school.1164345/

My rotations were no different than my MD colleagues at nearby state school - medium sized hospitals with multiple residencies, didactics daily, all rotations set up and structured, etc. I can't say how typical that is for the entirety of DOs but we certainly are not all preceptor based.

There are many threads both allo and osteo complaining about bad rotations. I think they have become a problem for most students on both sides. The typical MD has better rotations than the typical DO but again its not like all MDs are hanging out at MGH and all DOs are shadowing a greasy haired, back-cracker.

The proliferation of DO schools needs to stop for many reasons and one main one is the lack of clinical training available for all these new students.

 

[Mad Jack]

I actually don't like the preceptor model either. However, there many DO schools where that model is not the norm. It's one of the biggest things that annoys me about DO/MD talk. All DOs are treated the same when our clinical years actually range from really good (similar to MD) to really bad (one on one mostly shadowing preceptorships).

This thread has some info on some DO schools' rotations: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/clinical-rotations-by-school.1164345/

My rotations were no different than my MD colleagues at nearby state school - medium sized hospitals with multiple residencies, didactics daily, all rotations set up and structured, etc. I can't say how typical that is for the entirety of DOs but we certainly are not all preceptor based.

There are many threads both allo and osteo complaining about bad rotations. I think they have become a problem for most students on both sides. The typical MD has better rotations than the typical DO but again its not like all MDs are hanging out at MGH and all DOs are shadowing a greasy haired, back-cracker.

The proliferation of DO schools needs to stop for many reasons and one main one is the lack of clinical training available for all these new students.

Yeah- we have three sites where we rotate side-by-side with MD students during third year, and yet, say, the Tufts Maine track kids are looked at very differently from the DO students they rotate alongside (at least everywhere but at Maine Med, where we match extremely well into nearly every specialty).

 

[JustSomePreMed]

I actually don't like the preceptor model either. However, there many DO schools where that model is not the norm. It's one of the biggest things that annoys me about DO/MD talk. All DOs are treated the same when our clinical years actually range from really good (similar to MD) to really bad (one on one mostly shadowing preceptorships).

This thread has some info on some DO schools' rotations: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/clinical-rotations-by-school.1164345/

My rotations were no different than my MD colleagues at nearby state school - medium sized hospitals with multiple residencies, didactics daily, all rotations set up and structured, etc. I can't say how typical that is for the entirety of DOs but we certainly are not all preceptor based.

There are many threads both allo and osteo complaining about bad rotations. I think they have become a problem for most students on both sides. The typical MD has better rotations than the typical DO but again its not like all MDs are hanging out at MGH and all DOs are shadowing a greasy haired, back-cracker.

The proliferation of DO schools needs to stop for many reasons and one main one is the lack of clinical training available for all these new students.

I did my intern year at a program that has DO students rotating through it. Their clinical education technically fits your description, but was terrible. It was a community hospital that was fun to be an intern at, but almost devoid of educational opportunities for students, despite the fact that they worked on teams with interns and residents and had "didactics "daily. The worst part was that the students constantly spoke about how our location was far and away their best educational experience, and people who wanted to learn the most fought to get a rotation at our hospital. I shudder to think what other students were getting.

 

[deleted564680]

I did my intern year at a program that has DO students rotating through it. Their clinical education technically fits your description, but was terrible. It was a community hospital that was fun to be an intern at, but almost devoid of educational opportunities for students, despite the fact that they worked on teams with interns and residents and had "didactics "daily. The worst part was that the students constantly spoke about how our location was far and away their best educational experience, and people who wanted to learn the most fought to get a rotation at our hospital. I shudder to think what other students were getting.

I agree it's inconsistent between schools and even within some schools. There are some DOs that get equivalent training though. It's not as many as I wish it was but again, it seems there are plenty of MDs complaining about rotations on SDN and in real life also.

 

[kbeitz]

>10 schools closing, the other schools having their class sizes cut because they don't have sufficient clinical education, complex being done away with and OMM being pushed to a fellowship. Many DOs would consider that a disaster but that's what needs to happen to become on par with midtier MDs

Aren't you a pre-med DO? What if your school closes, or you are cut?

 

[Event_Horizon]

What a world we would live in if some of the drivel that comes out of peoples mouths on this forum had any actual influence on perception of the individual in question (whether from school admins/PDs/hospital admins/deans/etc). Everyone, on either side of MD vs DO, needs to take a gigantic chill-pill, step of their preaching high-horse, stop with the generalizations/anecdotes, and get this thread back on topic. Most individuals could not give a rats-behind about what you think about anything. Save it for someone who does.

I think it is still a bit early to identify the exact amount of new residency spots that will be available to MD students once there is a combined match. There are still many AOA programs that either need to decide to get up-to-par or close down. Suffice to say, as many have mentioned already, I imagine the competitive specialty residency spots will start to see a majority of MDs match into them vs DOs. That will most likely be the case due to a larger pool of highly qualified MD applicants applying to them in comparison to the much smaller pool of highly qualified DO applicants applying to them.

 

[deleted564680]

To be fair, I answered the OP in post three with some good data...then we all got bored and wanted to spill our thoughts

 

[kbeitz]

Let's not do this whole let's play pretend game. Md schools are in areas where people get healthcare. It's not like do schools that just open in the middle of nowhere and hope that some hospital will have rotations available for their students. The main reason that people go do is because they couldn't get md. It's really that simple. You're acting like there aren't way more md programs or that they're not in the same geographic areas

Actually I turned down my MD state school interview invites having just bought a house in my wife's state. I did this after making the decision to go DO in her state, because my wife already had a stable job and family to support her there. I wouldn't say I couldn't get into an MD school, having interviewed at my own state school the year before and improving my application in the next year as they requested.

You are really arrogant, and you should work on that as you become a better physician.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

Actually I turned down my MD state school interview invites having just bought a house in my wife's state. I did this after making the decision to go DO in her state, because my wife already had a stable job and family to support her there. I wouldn't say I couldn't get into an MD school, having interviewed at my own state school the year before and improving my application in the next year as they requested.

You are really arrogant, and you should work on that as you become a better physician.

Your post is invalid without an actual MD acceptance. You're also a reapplicant which indicates that you couldn't get into MD schools the first try (like many people) and decided to apply to DO school in the second cycle. This tell us that you wanted to go to MD initially and DO was the backup plan. Really you actually are a prime example of much of what Psai was saying and it's not arrogant to say it like it is. We could also say that you need to stop being really defensive...