How many New spots will the be available to MD students due to the Combined Match?

[psychMDhopefully]

And will there be any significant gains in specialty spots? I looked at the DO residencies, and a lot of them are low paying ~42k, and some of the Derm spots don't pay at all?

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[Rekt]

 

[deleted564680]

I will try to answer this because you seem to be genuinely asking, but please be aware that this is an issue that is making a lot of DOs very upset. Be sensitive to the issue of DOs losing many of their competitive programs and their chances at specialties since many ACGME institutions in those fields have notoriously have shunned DOs.

In terms of overall numbers, we just don't know at this point and won't have a clearer picture until January, 2018. In June of this year, all 5 year AOA programs have to submit whether they will go through pre-accreditation to merge. December 2016 all 4 year AOA programs and then December 2017 for all 3 year AOA programs. Those programs that do not submit by those deadlines will cease to exist.

You can check which programs have applied so far here: https://apps.acgme.org/ads/Public/Reports/Report/18

You can check how many overall spots in each position were AOA matched here: https://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2016prgstats.html


Examples:

Neurosurgery already had to have its submissions in. There were 7 programs in the AOA match this year with 13 spots. 6 programs have filed for pre-accreditation.

These fields will need to submit their pre-accreditation by June 30th of this year.
- 155 general surgery positions (49 programs) in the AOA match. 23 programs thus far have submitted = 47% of programs
- 121 orthopedic surgery positions (40 programs) in the AOA match. 17 programs thus far have submitted = 43% of programs
- 19 ENT positions (13 programs) in the AOA match. 7 programs thus far have submitted = 54% of programs
- 16 ophtho positions (10 programs) in the AOA match. 1 program thus far has submitted = 10% of programs
- 22 urology positions (11 programs) in the AOA match. 8 programs have thus far submitted = 73% of programs
- 24 radiology positions (11 programs) in the AOA match. 8 programs have thus far submitted = 73% of programs

A varying percentage of these programs now have MD program directors as well. You can see why DOs are upset about the potential loss of all of these fields. Current ACGME PDs in ortho, ophtho, and ENT aren't likely to start taking DOs overnight and many of these current AOA programs will be taking MDs. Some programs have already gone through the process of AOA program with DO residents > MD PD and merger > only taking MD residents.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I will try to answer this because you seem to be genuinely asking, but please be aware that this is an issue that is making a lot of DOs very upset. Be sensitive to the issue of DOs losing many of their competitive programs and their chances at specialties since many ACGME institutions in those fields have notoriously have shunned DOs.

In terms of overall numbers, we just don't know at this point and won't have a clearer picture until January, 2018. In June of this year, all 5 year AOA programs have to submit whether they will go through pre-accreditation to merge. December 2016 all 4 year AOA programs and then December 2017 for all 3 year AOA programs. Those programs that do not submit by those deadlines will cease to exist.

You can check which programs have applied so far here: https://apps.acgme.org/ads/Public/Reports/Report/18

You can check how many overall spots in each position were AOA matched here: https://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2016prgstats.html


Examples:

Neurosurgery already had to have its submissions in. There were 7 programs in the AOA match this year with 13 spots. 6 programs have filed for pre-accreditation.

These fields will need to submit their pre-accreditation by June 30th of this year.
- 155 general surgery positions (49 programs) in the AOA match. 23 programs thus far have submitted = 47% of programs
- 121 orthopedic surgery positions (40 programs) in the AOA match. 17 programs thus far have submitted = 43% of programs
- 19 ENT positions filled (13 programs) in the AOA match. 7 programs thus far have submitted = 54% of programs
- 16 ophtho positions filled (10 programs) in the AOA matc. 1 program thus far has submitted = 10% of programs

A varying percentage of these programs now have MD program directors as well. You can see why DOs are upset about the potential loss of all of these fields. Current ACGME PDs in ortho, ophtho, and ENT aren't likely to start taking DOs overnight and many of these current AOA programs will be taking MDs. Some programs have already gone through the process of AOA program with DO residents > MD PD and merger > only taking MD residents.

Oh the humanity! They might have to start competing with the entire applicant pool!

 

[deleted564680]

Oh the humanity! They might have to start competing with the entire applicant pool!

If it was a fair fight then I'd be with you, trust me. It's the fact that the current ACGME programs in nsg, ortho, ophtho, urology, derm, ENT, etc. will not take DOs except under a very rare situation. If they viewed DOs = MDs then that would be a different story. The AOA programs in those fields were the only way DOs could obtain those specialties due to the bias on the MD side. I know (and am one) of many DOs with 250/260+ USMLE scores that weren't given the time of day by subspecialty ACGME programs.

 

[Merely]

Seems like DOs are getting completely fked by this merger lol

 

[deleted564680]

Seems like DOs are getting completely fked by this merger lol

Yep. That's the consensus on the DO side.

 

[jw3600]

If it was a fair fight then I'd be with you, trust me. It's the fact that the current ACGME programs in nsg, ortho, ophtho, urology, derm, ENT, etc. will not take DOs except under a very rare situation. If they viewed DOs = MDs then that would be a different story. The AOA programs in those fields were the only way DOs could obtain those specialties due to the bias on the MD side. I know (and am one) of many DOs with 250/260+ USMLE scores that weren't given the time of day by subspecialty ACGME programs.

I agree it's not a fair fight and SS's comment doesn't really portray the real situation. But your first paragraph of your first post reads like a tip toed politically correct pile of garbage. You're actually prefacing discussion about important issues with a disclaimer that people are upset so people should watch their micro aggressions?

 

[deleted564680]

I agree it's not a fair fight and SS's comment doesn't really portray the real situation. But your first paragraph of your first post reads like a tip toed politically correct pile of garbage. You're actually prefacing discussion about important issues with a disclaimer that people are upset so people should watch their micro aggressions?

OP didn't seem like he/she knew that it was a hot-button issue on the DO side. I was just trying to point that out so this thread could remain civil since it is such an important issue.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

DO students always talk about how they are just as capable as MD students if not more in everything. This will give them the ability to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. They should be excited that they now have to compete with MD students...what do they have to be sensitive about?

 

[psychMDhopefully]

Yep. That's the consensus on the DO side.

That's really not fair. I hate how a single person ( the PD) has the finally say with the rank list. PDs aren't a young diverse group ( they should be or at least reflect the medical workforce), instead 95% old prejudice white dudes control the gateway to American medicine. If we have a residency merger now, DO or MD shouldn't matter if scores are equal.

 

[deleted564680]

DO students always talk about how they are just as capable as MD students if not more in everything. This will give them the ability to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. They should be excited that they now have to compete with MD students...what do they have to be sensitive about?

I just explained this... There are DOs every year with BETTER stats than some of their MD counterparts who match in nsg, ortho, urology, ENT, etc. that don't even get a look because of bias. The average MD is better than the average DO but there are DOs out there that can compete with just about any MD.

 

[IslandStyle808]

DO students always talk about how they are just as capable as MD students if not more in everything. This will give them the ability to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. They should be excited that they now have to compete with MD students...what do they have to be sensitive about?

Because of those rare DOs who do walk the walk (excellent board scores, most rotations with residencies, research) still get shut out due to a non-LCME filter.

 

[Goro]

Ballpark guess, 2500-3000 slots?

And will there be any significant gains in specialty spots? I looked at the DO residencies, and a lot of them are low paying ~42k, and some of the Derm spots don't pay at all?

 

[gyngyn]

That's really not fair. I hate how a single person ( the PD) has the finally say with the rank list. PDs aren't a young diverse group ( they should be or at least reflect the medical workforce), instead 95% old prejudice white dudes control the gateway to American medicine. If we have a residency merger now, DO or MD shouldn't matter if scores are equal.

PD's in my experience are actually mid-career and relatively diverse in ethnicity. The Chairman has the final say and they do tend a bit more toward the non-inflammatory parts of your definition.

 

[deleted564680]

Here's an example to illustrate what I'm saying....This person (a DO) posted their rank list on the Rads forum.

USMLE: 256/268
Class Rank: 1/162
Research: 5 "experiences", 3 posters, 1 abstract, 0 pubs
Clinical Grades: all Honors

Rank List:
1. CCF
2. UPMC
3. Dartmouth
4. Penn State
5. Yale
6. UF-Gainesville
7. USF
8. Beaumont
9. Nebraska
10. UF-Jacksonville

Rejections: MIR, Mayo, Michigan, Indiana, Iowa, MCW, Wisconsin, Case-UH, UAB, MGH, BWH, NW, Loyola, Rush


Now, if this person was an MD, he/she would be in the running to match at any program outside the top 5 and certainly would not be rejected by all of those programs.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

That's really not fair. I hate how a single person ( the PD) has the finally say with the rank list. PDs aren't a young diverse group ( they should be or at least reflect the medical workforce), instead 95% old prejudice white dudes control the gateway to American medicine. If we have a residency merger now, DO or MD shouldn't matter if scores are equal.

Why should MD PDs care about DO where there are more than enough highly qualified MD applicants competing for spot in their programs? The same question could be asked by the DO side. And two applicant with the same scores often do not have the same resume for everything else (research, LORs, etc.)

 

[Dr.Smexy]

Because of those rare DOs who do walk the walk (excellent board scores, most rotations with residencies, research) still get shut out due to a non-LCME filter.

The same has been applied to MD for decades. Matter of fact, MD couldn't even APPLY to DO residencies until this merger. DO hasn't been exactly welcoming to MD and yet they expect that the MD side should gives them every opportunity just like other MD students...really it is about time that we have this merger.

 

[deleted564680]

The same has been applied to MD for decades. Matter of fact, MD couldn't even APPLY to DO residencies until this merger. DO hasn't been exactly welcoming to MD and yet they expect that the MD side should gives them every opportunity just like other MD students...really it is about time that we have this merger.

DOs had to create their own residencies in those fields because MDs wouldn't let them in. I agree, if both sides can treat MD=DO then we will be better off. But, we know that's not happening.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

DOs had to create their own residencies in those fields because MDs wouldn't let them in. I agree, if both sides can treat MD=DO then we will be better off. But, we know that's not happening.

Not true at all. It was the case a long time ago but we all know that DOs been matching to MD residencies all over the place in the past decade yet they still think that MDs don't deserve to enter their residencies...MDs was the better man and accepting DOs into their side but the feeling was not mutual at least until ACGME forced them to do so.

 

[IslandStyle808]

The same has been applied to MD for decades. Matter of fact, MD couldn't even APPLY to DO residencies until this merger. DO hasn't been exactly welcoming to MD and yet they expect that the MD side should gives them every opportunity just like other MD students...really it is about time that we have this merger.

There were residencies in the past that were AOA accredited switched to being ACGME, and lo and behold all the residents afterward were MDs. So there will definitely be former AOA residencies that will also look at MD applications very closely. However, the same can't exactly be said about ACMGE residencies looking at DO applications.

 

[gyngyn]

Here's an example to illustrate what I'm saying....This person (a DO) posted their rank list on the Rads forum.

USMLE: 256/268
Class Rank: 1/162
Research: 5 "experiences", 3 posters, 1 abstract, 0 pubs
Clinical Grades: all Honors

Rank List:
1. CCF
2. UPMC
3. Dartmouth
4. Penn State
5. Yale
6. UF-Gainesville
7. USF
8. Beaumont
9. Nebraska
10. UF-Jacksonville

Rejections: MIR, Mayo, Michigan, Indiana, Iowa, MCW, Wisconsin, Case-UH, UAB, MGH, BWH, NW, Loyola, Rush


Now, if this person was an MD, he/she would be in the running to match at any program outside the top 5 and certainly would not be rejected by all of those programs.

One is not actually rejected in an ROL. You are ranked in order of preference; hence, Rank Order List.

 

[kbeitz]

Because there is no evidence that this goes away with the merger.

 

[deleted564680]

One is not actually rejected in an ROL. You are ranked in order of preference; hence, Rank Order List.

That person was rejected for interview to those places he/she listed...no MD would be rejected by those places with those stats. I assume that by applying to those places, he/she was wanting to go to them but was rejected.

 

[deleted731525]

That's really not fair. I hate how a single person ( the PD) has the finally say with the rank list. PDs aren't a young diverse group ( they should be or at least reflect the medical workforce), instead 95% old prejudice white dudes control the gateway to American medicine. If we have a residency merger now, DO or MD shouldn't matter if scores are equal.

The problem is that DO clinical education is inconsistent vs US MD and that cant be measured by step 1. The only way they will ever be seen as equal is if MD and DO schools have the same accreditation standards.

 

[IslandStyle808]

The problem is that DO clinical education is inconsistent vs US MD and that cant be measured by step 1. The only way they will ever be seen as equal is if MD and DO schools have the same accreditation standards.

More like under the same accrediting body.

 

[gyngyn]

That person was rejected for interview to those places he/she listed...no MD would be rejected by those places with those stats. I assume that by applying to those places, he/she was wanting to go to them but was rejected.

Actually, we don't interview candidates for all sorts of reasons (without regard to stats). Maybe you are right, but with what you have listed, I have no way of knowing why your candidate didn't get interviewed at these programs. Even my students didn't get interviewed at many of them!

 

[deleted564680]

Actually, we don't interview candidates for all sorts of reasons (without regard to stats). Maybe you are right, but with what you have listed, I have no way of knowing why your candidate didn't get interviewed at these programs. Even my students didn't get interviewed at many of them!

Fair point. But, it's a known trend in Rads that the top 30ish programs are shut out to DOs (except Cleveland Clinic and UPMC).

I'm all for fairness and honestly some DO AOA programs weren't meeting standards and some DO schools don't meet clinical standards. However, some MD schools have sketchy clinical rotations and some DO schools have great rotations. It's impossible to measure that.

Is is preferable to be at a top medical school and round with 3 attendings, a chief resident, two senior residents, 4 jr residents, and 6-8 medical students or be at a community program with an attending one on one as a student? Or, something in between? A mixture? No one knows what makes the best doctors besides the person's individual motivation. A person in DO school that was ranked no. 1 and scored > 97th and 99th percentile on his/her USMLE scores shows great internal drive. To ignore that person because of a nebulous assumption about clinical rotations is short-sighted.

 

[ortnakas]

Most of the AOA residencies are in community hospitals-- while many are very good, there's also a reason a lot of DO grads choose to go the ACGME route. The merger makes more spots available to MD grads quantity-wise, but unless you're looking to match in a specific area that happens to have a lot of DO residencies, I doubt you all are going to be all that excited about the new-to-you options you're getting from the merger.

Interesting to see the Allo version of this thread.

 

[Danbo1957]

I'm one of the old-school, white dude PDs (for ten years). Never took anyone without an MD, never will. Don't take low-tier MD school, Caribbean school grads, or Third World school grads either. I am all for any process that weeds out lesser qualified MD graduates too...

 

[OrthopedicOpthoderm]

I'm one of the old-school, white dude PDs (for ten years). Never took anyone without an MD, never will. Don't take low-tier MD school, Caribbean, or Third World med-school grads either. I am all for any process that weeds out lesser qualified MD graduates too...

Just curious what is refereed to when mentioning low tier MD school?

and by the last sentence does that mean having the "lower" tiered MD grads going into these old AOA places?

 

[Psai]

I'm one of the old-school, white dude PDs (for ten years). Never took anyone without an MD, never will. Don't take low-tier MD school, Caribbean school grads, or Third World school grads either. I am all for any process that weeds out lesser qualified MD graduates too...

What would be low tier?

 

[Danbo1957]

Lower quality MD grads will be beaten out by better qualified DO grads for residency spots. Will put pressure on medical schools to accept better quality students (be nice to weed out students that qualify because of demographics...)

 

[IslandStyle808]

Interesting...

 

[psychMDhopefully]

I'm one of the old-school, white dude PDs (for ten years). Never took anyone without an MD, never will. Don't take low-tier MD school, Caribbean school grads, or Third World school grads either. I am all for any process that weeds out lesser qualified MD graduates too...

Wheres the thumbs down button for this post?

 

[Danbo1957]

What would be low tier?

Those medical schools that take students who could not get into mid-tier+ schools. "Average students" are those with median GPAs and median test scores. "Average" kills residency programs...

 

[IslandStyle808]

Wheres the thumbs down button for this post?

I've heard in the past the blanket statement that going to an MD school will have your app looked at seriously. Now I learned an exception to the rule.

 

[mymembernames]

Will the merge make it easier for the US MD underdogs to match into A residency?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

That's really not fair. I hate how a single person ( the PD) has the finally say with the rank list. PDs aren't a young diverse group ( they should be or at least reflect the medical workforce), instead 95% old prejudice white dudes control the gateway to American medicine. If we have a residency merger now, DO or MD shouldn't matter if scores are equal.

Lol, if anything the DO residencies are the ones who play the biggest games of croneyism and nepotism. You see this every year in the huge number of them that won't even interview applicants who don't do aways there, or the pay-to-play derm residencies.

The best part of the merger will be pushing this small time mentality out the window.

 

[the argus]

I'm one of the old-school, white dude PDs (for ten years). Never took anyone without an MD, never will. Don't take low-tier MD school, Caribbean school grads, or Third World school grads either. I am all for any process that weeds out lesser qualified MD graduates too...

Super glad this guy isn't my PD, but I'm sure he'd say the same thing since I'm a Caribbean grad.

His argument basically boils down to he thinks that the best premed students make the best physicians. Hasn't been the case in my experience.

 

[DRsmartypants]

I do think DOs were completely f**ked over with this decision, and I honestly due to the extreme bias that DO =/= MD(which I think is stupid considering legally they are equal, and I judge people based on how much work they put. I know some residents who are better then attendings, I know some masters better then PhDs, anyone who judges based on a degree is stupid) it will initially hurt them, no doubt. I am an MD student, whoever I do feel for the DOs. They put in just as much work as us, they just maybe had a couple GPA points lower in undergrad. I do think this MAY be a step in the right direction, if DOs are competing with MDs, maybe it will bring their image up?

 

[Dr.Smexy]

Most of the AOA residencies are in community hospitals-- while many are very good, there's also a reason a lot of DO grads choose to go the ACGME route. The merger makes more spots available to MD grads quantity-wise, but unless you're looking to match in a specific area that happens to have a lot of DO residencies, I doubt you all are going to be all that excited about the new-to-you options you're getting from the merger.

Interesting to see the Allo version of this thread.

LOL what makes you think that the community programs in FM, IM, Psych or Ped are what we aiming and excited about? MD applicants WILL gun down all the Derm, Plastic, and every other competitive specialties residencies available to them whether or not they were previously MD or DO. The thousands of unmatched applicants in those specialties will not give a damn about where they go for residencies as long as they have one and it is ACGME accredited.

 

[Psai]

Those medical schools that take students who could not get into mid-tier+ schools. "Average students" are those with median GPAs and median test scores. "Average" kills residency programs...

And what are mid-tier schools?

There are students from name brand schools that end up in podunk residencies and students from low tier schools that end up at great places. There's a bell curve and the separation between medical schools isn't that large.

I do think DOs were completely f**ked over with this decision, and I honestly due to the extreme bias that DO =/= MD(which I think is stupid considering legally they are equal, and I judge people based on how much work they put. I know some residents who are better then attendings, I know some masters better then PhDs, anyone who judges based on a degree is stupid) it will initially hurt them, no doubt. I am an MD student, whoever I do feel for the DOs. They put in just as much work as us, they just maybe had a couple GPA points lower in undergrad. I do think this MAY be a step in the right direction, if DOs are competing with MDs, maybe it will bring their image up?

?? Of course degree matters. It's a culmination of your academic work. There's a reason why Harvard impresses people while cal northstate doesn't

 

[Danbo1957]

His argument basically boils down to he thinks that the best premed students make the best physicians. Hasn't been the case in my experience.

I think that the "best" premed students should get into med-school; after med-school is when we decide whether one can become trained to be a doctor. The "best" doctors come from everywhere. After a certain point it's up to individual achievement...

 

[Rekt]

I think that the "best" premed students should get into med-school; after med-school is when we decide whether one can become trained to be a doctor. The "best" doctors come from everywhere. After a certain point it's up to individual achievement...

This contradicts what you've previously said. What about a stellar DO student at 250+ vs. the 215 MD?

 

[psychMDhopefully]

His emphasis on "best" and "demographics" really show he's an old prejudice white dude who is obsessed with the ivory tower.

Sadly not uncommon among PDs.

 

[ZX10R]

Hold the phone, I thought MDs had to learn all the OMM stuff and take a test proving they know it in order to qualify? Don't DOs spend 1-2 years learning that stuff? How many MD medical students are gonna have time to sit down and learn all that stuff and at the level of a DO student? I guess if they are willing to do that more power to them ($$$).

IMO the merger is good because it will shut down some Residencies that really shouldn't exist, now if only we could do the same for ACGME residencies that fall into the same category. For example, ones that end up taking cases away from nearby academic programs because they lack the means.

Im sure the first 3-5 years DOs are going to be hurt by this but as time goes on hopefully they will have the same chances as MD students.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

Hold the phone, I thought MDs had to learn all the OMM stuff and take a test proving they know it in order to qualify? Don't DOs spend 1-2 years learning that stuff? How many MD medical students are gonna have time to sit down and learn all that stuff and at the level of a DO student? I guess if they are willing to do that more power to them ($$$).

IMO the merger is good because it will shut down some Residencies that really shouldn't exist, now if only we could do the same for ACGME residencies that fall into the same category. For example, ones that end up taking cases away from nearby academic programs because they lack the means.

Im sure the first 3-5 years DOs are going to be hurt by this but as time goes on hopefully they will have the same chances as MD students.

AOA residencies that convert into ACGME in this merger have to apply for a separate application to have the "Osteopathic distinction" in order to require any OMM at all...most of the converted program so far have decided to not apply for that distinction and it is speculated to be the same for the others who going to convert. Most of the competitive specialties residencies have no incentives to do it because they'll shut out a good chunk of good applicants and no PDs want to settle for anything less than the best they can get. Also MDs can always take a couple months to learn OMM and get certification...it doesn't take 1-2 years (DO don't spend the first two years in med school to only learn how to massage joints and muscles)

 

[Danbo1957]

What about a stellar DO student at 250+ vs. the 215 MD?

That 250+ DO is not competing with a 215 MD. The DO will get a great residency spot and that MD will go into emergency medicine. My MD residency is set for allopathic, 230+ allopathic. It's a numbers game in so many ways, of course, none of it seems fair. We try to make what we do equitable for those we select (I do not care about gender, ethnic or economic background-- you can be a Martian; although, I do avoid the religious).

It's about offering the best we can for our patients and community, and doing our part to the advancement of medicine.

 

[37Base]

As a DO student I would be inclined to think the merger to be a good thing IF they also eliminated the COMLEX. I like being on equal footing as the MDs. However having to take 2 exams is brutal and lowers our potential usmle scores as we have to focus on 2 different styles of exam and emphasis of material


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