How many New spots will the be available to MD students due to the Combined Match?

[psychMDhopefully]

Throwing aside the professional victim persona you project, you have no idea what you're talking about. Many, many PDs are not White.

Many might be pushing it, maybe a few.

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[Goro]

All part of the evolutionary process of American medical education.

This is where the issue of the match algorithm comes in...

Even If those MD applicants rank the programs in a middling or low fashion, and the DOs rank them highly (because they don't have any better options)...

If the programs, newly exposed to this crop of applicants, find themselves liking the MD applicants and ranking them highly...

Then the DO students will get edged out...

That's the whole problem with these competitive fields - there is already a glut of highly qualified MD applicants applying for them. It's not like the students who fail to match in ortho are "bad" applicants...there are just too many "good" applicants relative to the number of slots.

The DO students were protected from competition in these fields by having a small but isolated crop of programs that were "theirs". Now these programs are open to the wider applicant pool.

Must have been one of my students!!!

The medicine department at my hospital just hired a sub specialist DO. He may be the first DO in the department (maybe they have one stashed in the hospitalist group or in outpatient primary care that I don't know of, but he's definitely the first in that prestigious subspecialty division). I can tell you he has gotten a lot of side-eye from both within his own department and without, even from residents. And he trained at good ACGME programs for both residency and fellowship.

I'm talking ridiculous stuff like when attendings find out he's on for consults, they either wait a week until the next person comes on, or they email one of their buddies to "double check" his recs.

Sad thing is that when a read or consult says MD it may be an MBBS or carib grad or anything but people don't have that trigger bias. A DO is 100% US trained 100% of the time. The AOA should tout that more.

Amen! Throttling the life out of the AOA mentality of "more DO schools good" will help the profession.

Agree. Now is there any way we could persuade them to overthrow COCA, standardize DO clinical curriculum and stop the reckless proliferation of DO schools? If so we'd really be in business.

 

[Stagg737]

It's not at all common. As far as I know, it's only happened to one person over in the Osteo forums and it's since become SDN lore. Not that it didn't suck for that individual, and not to say it's okay that it happened, but it often gets thrown around as an example of how our clinical education must be terrible, and I really don't think it's representative of most students' experiences.

This actually happened? If this occurred at one of my school's rotation sites the entire site would probably be 'fired'. Not going to say our rotations are 100% consistent or that they're all incredible quality (as I haven't done them yet), but I know our school sets standards and if a site/preceptor were found to be lacking they'd get dropped pretty quickly as it's happened in the past.

 

[NontradCA]

This actually happened? If this occurred at one of my school's rotation sites the entire site would probably be 'fired'. Not going to say our rotations are 100% consistent or that they're all incredible quality (as I haven't done them yet), but I know our school sets standards and if a site/preceptor were found to be lacking they'd get dropped pretty quickly as it's happened in the past.

This is an extreme example, and yes, at most schools this would not fly. But that's why I said it varies. Also keep in mind that most rotations will be at community hospitals, where there's not a ton of research or personnel associated with education. So the experience is largely dependent on individual preceptors.

Add to the fact that a lot of MD faculty are not familiar with DO programs in general. I did research at a large academic center and the people I met usually never heard of my school. I know a DO student who did research at a center down the block from his school, and the PI did not know it existed. I know another DO gas doc who's PD did not even know what the COMLEX was. My Dad does not know what a DO is.

 

[IsWhat]

There is so much fear mongering going on in this thread it is starting to look a lot like forums about the side effects of drugs. Contrary to what you might think after reading this thread - the vast majority of DOs find a residency, graduate, and then move on to practice medicine without incident and have great careers.

 

[Wordead]

The amount of ignorance on DO

Now, I am sure that there are brilliant MD students out there that scores high. The problem is NOT that DO students loose spots when competing to those students. The problem is that DO students with 250 loosing to some random MD with 220. In fact, that old-white-dude-PD is a living proof of such bias. And please, keep your premed ignorance to yourself...Most if not all the medical student/resident/or PD I talked to, both in Canada or US, told me they couldn't care less if you are MD/DO, as long as you got the skill and score, you're in.

Lose and losing only have 1 'o' otherwise I agree 109%. I've talked to numerous MDs about DO before deciding, many of them older white guys, and they all said the stigma is dying. /endthread


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Did they tell you that racism is dead too and that we're really close to a cure for cancer

 

[Dires]

 

[IslandStyle808]

It's not at all common. As far as I know, it's only happened to one person over in the Osteo forums and it's since become SDN lore. Not that it didn't suck for that individual, and not to say it's okay that it happened, but it often gets thrown around as an example of how our clinical education must be terrible, and I really don't think it's representative of most students' experiences.

Very low totally agree. However, not the only story I have heard (I have seen at least 2 more about having an NP for a preceptor). However, my favorite of all time was a psychology PhD student acting as a preceptor for a psychiatry rotation.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/horrible-preceptor-rotations.1123040/page-2#post-16268691 (post #99)

 

[Stagg737]

Very low totally agree. However, not the only story I have heard (I have seen at least 2 more about having an NP for a preceptor). However, my favorite of all time was a psychology PhD student acting as a preceptor for a psychiatry rotation.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/horrible-preceptor-rotations.1123040/page-2#post-16268691 (post #99)

According to that post the preceptor didn't even have a PhD...Lol, wut? Seriously, what are these schools and why would a student put up with crap like that?

 

[Greenberg702]

The amount of ignorance on DO

Now, I am sure that there are brilliant MD students out there that scores high. The problem is NOT that DO students loose spots when competing to those students. The problem is that DO students with 250 loosing to some random MD with 220. In fact, that old-white-dude-PD is a living proof of such bias. And please, keep your premed ignorance to yourself...Most if not all the medical student/resident/or PD I talked to, both in Canada or US, told me they couldn't care less if you are MD/DO, as long as you got the skill and score, you're in.

That's ludicrous. Most competitive specialties like ortho have average board scores around 248. No 250s DO student is losing out to 220 MD kids. More like 245 MD students with awesome letter writers, clinical training, research who the attendings at the program know and is likely to be a good resident. As they should. Again, higher board scores mean very little after a certain point.

 

[67552931811]

Very low totally agree. However, not the only story I have heard (I have seen at least 2 more about having an NP for a preceptor). However, my favorite of all time was a psychology PhD student acting as a preceptor for a psychiatry rotation.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/horrible-preceptor-rotations.1123040/page-2#post-16268691 (post #99)

Not that I'm defending DO schools for not having a more consistent and better 3rd year product but: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/np-preceptor.1135969/-- US MD

 

[Mad Jack]

There is so much fear mongering going on in this thread it is starting to look a lot like forums about the side effects of drugs. Contrary to what you might think after reading this thread - the vast majority of DOs find a residency, graduate, and then move on to practice medicine without incident and have great careers.

You're missing the point. No one has said that DOs don't find residencies, graduate, or move on to practice medicine.

We're saying that a lot of DOs don't end up in the field they want, that they often work harder for less results, and that the stigma does still exist and can very well affect your life in practice, particularly if you want to go into academics or work at a big medical center where you don't personally know all of the other physicians. You can pretend none of these things aren't real if you'd like, but in the real world this is what you'll be dealing with.

 

[Mad Jack]

That's ludicrous. Most competitive specialties like ortho have average board scores around 248. No 250s DO student is losing out to 220 MD kids. More like 245 MD students with awesome letter writers, clinical training, research who the attendings at the program know and is likely to be a good resident. As they should. Again, higher board scores mean very little after a certain point.

There's a lot of places where that 250 DO student's app won't even see the light of day, so it doesn't matter. That's why you've got a higher chance of matching as a MD with a 221-230 than all DOs and IMGs either combined or in any separate score profile each year. Hell, on a raw percentage basis, you're more likely to match as an MD with a 201-210 OR 211-220 than you are as an independent applicant with a 251-260.

 

[tymont12]

There's a lot of places where that 250 DO student's app won't even see the light of day, so it doesn't matter. That's why you've got a higher chance of matching as a MD with a 221-230 than all DOs and IMGs either combined or in any separate score profile each year. Hell, on a raw percentage basis, you're more likely to match as an MD with a 191-200 OR 201-210 OR 211-220 than you are as an independent applicant with a 251-260 OR >260.
View attachment 201792

...and what specialty is this? Because the numbers are way different for family med and internal medicine but the same general trend does hold, albeit not as extreme as in your example.
.

 

[Mad Jack]

...and what specialty is this? Because the numbers are way different for family med and internal medicine but the same general trend does hold, albeit not as extreme.

Ortho. Because that was the specialty discussed in the post I was responding to.

 

[gamrag]

Ran into a lot of excellent DO students when I was interviewing. Also met tons of awesome DO attendings, PDs, and chairs. Granted I'm going into PM&R, but it is amazing how your perception changes once you match and everyone will be your future college. Life isn't meant to be fair, but that doesn't mean you just complain all day long. If you work hard and love what you do, you will be successful. Stop making up excuses.

The current system is not fair to anyone. Yes, DO students have a hard time getting into some competitive ACGME specialties. But MD students can't get into any AOA program.

I definitely wouldn't have minded ranking some of those AOA prelim programs to avoid the possibility of having to scramble into prelim surgery. I was lucky, and things worked out. In my opinion, this merger is good for everyone.

 

[jw3600]

Ran into a lot of excellent DO students when I was interviewing. Also met tons of awesome DO attendings, PDs, and chairs. Granted I'm going into PM&R, but it is amazing how your perception changes once you match and everyone will be your future college. Life isn't meant to be fair, but that doesn't mean you just complain all day long. If you work hard and love what you do, you will be successful. Stop making up excuses.

The current system is not fair to anyone. Yes, DO students have a hard time getting into some competitive ACGME specialties. But MD students can't get into any AOA program.

I definitely wouldn't have minded ranking some of those AOA prelim programs to avoid the possibility of having to scramble into prelim surgery. I was lucky, and things worked out. In my opinion, this merger is good for everyone.

It's posts like this and others that confuse me. A lot of posters seem to think people are talking about how things SHOULD BE. Frankly, that doesn't matter. Myself and others (madjack, meat tornado, nontrad synaptic doctah and others) are talking about how things ARE currently and how they might change. They are drastically different topics. As of now it is unarguable that matching more competitive specialties is harder for a DO, simply because of being a DO. With this merger, it seems like it is going to get even harder when the former AOA programs, now ACGME, start taking competitive MD applicants. This is something that a lot of people on the AOA/DO side had hoped would not happen right away or not to the degree which it might already be happening. Are there actually people who disagree with these assertions? No one is saying that DOs can't have good careers. People are merely trying to evaluate the upcoming changes.

 

[hallowmann]

This actually happened? If this occurred at one of my school's rotation sites the entire site would probably be 'fired'. Not going to say our rotations are 100% consistent or that they're all incredible quality (as I haven't done them yet), but I know our school sets standards and if a site/preceptor were found to be lacking they'd get dropped pretty quickly as it's happened in the past.

It happened at one of the schools out west, I think. That said, the student complained, then ClinEd supposedly changed the rotation and the student had an amazing experience. That student also went on to match to a combined IM/EM/CC program, which was exactly what they've always wanted, so it appears to not have significantly affected that particular individual. Still, I couldn't imagine being in that situation. Same goes for the Psychology PhD candidate or even a Psych PhD being the primary preceptor.

...or not to the degree which it might already be happening...

What exactly is this based off of? As of right now only a handful of programs have attained initial accreditation through the merger, and they won't be able to accept MDs until this upcoming cycle. Any programs that transitioned before it started, were already distancing themselves from the AOA and switching to ACGME, so it would make sense that those programs shifted who they accepted. I mean, lets face it, those are the same programs that wanted to drop AOA accreditation in the first place, even before the transition period started.

Not saying nothing will change, just wondering what your claim that it might already be happening is based on.

 

[jw3600]

There is so much fear mongering going on in this thread it is starting to look a lot like forums about the side effects of drugs. Contrary to what you might think after reading this thread - the vast majority of DOs find a residency, graduate, and then move on to practice medicine without incident and have great careers.

Hell of a strawman, premed.

 

[jw3600]

It happened at one of the schools out west, I think. That said, the student complained, then ClinEd supposedly changed the rotation and the student had an amazing experience. That student also went on to match to a combined IM/EM/CC program, which was exactly what they've always wanted, so it appears to not have significantly affected that particular individual. Still, I couldn't imagine being in that situation. Same goes for the Psychology PhD candidate or even a Psych PhD being the primary preceptor.



What exactly is this based off of? As of right now only a handful of programs have attained initial accreditation through the merger, and they won't be able to accept MDs until this upcoming cycle. Any programs that transitioned before it started, were already distancing themselves from the AOA and switching to ACGME, so it would make sense that those programs shifted who they accepted. I mean, lets face it, those are the same programs that wanted to drop AOA accreditation in the first place, even before the transition period started.

Not saying nothing will change, just wondering what your claim that it might already be happening is based on.

There are so many god damn threads talking about this, I can't keep them straight. I do not remember where it was posted but there was a plastics program, possibly in Midwest? that went from entirely DO class (obviously) to an entirely MD class this last year (the first year they could, because the program had already received ACGME accreditation.) Yes, it's one program, but even if I had no data it makes sense that these surgical sub specialties and derm on the AOA side will be sought after by very competitive MD students. I am not surprised that a PD is simply taking the best candidate they are allowed to take, DO or MD.

Edit: Read your post a little more carefully. I think that all programs will "distance themselves from the AOA and switch to ACGME." Why wouldn't they?

 

[IslandStyle808]

Ran into a lot of excellent DO students when I was interviewing. Also met tons of awesome DO attendings, PDs, and chairs. Granted I'm going into PM&R, but it is amazing how your perception changes once you match and everyone will be your future college. Life isn't meant to be fair, but that doesn't mean you just complain all day long. If you work hard and love what you do, you will be successful. Stop making up excuses.

The current system is not fair to anyone. Yes, DO students have a hard time getting into some competitive ACGME specialties. But MD students can't get into any AOA program.

I definitely wouldn't have minded ranking some of those AOA prelim programs to avoid the possibility of having to scramble into prelim surgery. I was lucky, and things worked out. In my opinion, this merger is good for everyone.

I was agreeing with you until you stated "this merger is good for everyone." You have to look at it from the standpoint of what is. There are zero disadvantages to this merger going through for US MDs. Yet they have a lot more options open on the table for them (more specifically for competitive specialties). However, now not only are the amount of residencies decreasing on the AOA side, but also there is increased competition from FMGs and IMGs. Pre-residency there are more disadvantages to this than advantages for DOs. There also AOA programs that converted to ACGME ones and all of a sudden they took nothing but MD students (I don't believe for a second those MDs were far better candidates than the DO candidates they used to get). I believe the AOA residency didn't allow MDs to apply because they knew this was a possible consequence. This merger doesn't really benefit everyone.

 

[IslandStyle808]

There are so many god damn threads talking about this, I can't keep them straight. I do not remember where it was posted but there was a plastics program, possibly in Midwest? that went from entirely DO class (obviously) to an entirely MD class this last year (the first year they could, because the program had already received ACGME accreditation.) Yes, it's one program, but even if I had no data it makes sense that these surgical sub specialties and derm on the AOA side will be sought after by very competitive MD students. I am not surprised that a PD is simply taking the best candidate they are allowed to take, DO or MD.

Edit: Read your post a little more carefully. I think that all programs will "distance themselves from the AOA and switch to ACGME." Why wouldn't they?

It was Mercy Hospital's surgery program in Des Moines. I don't believe it is the PD looking only for the best candidates, because there are a lot of them on the DO side. It might in part have been a prestige thing.

 

[jw3600]

It was Mercy Hospital's surgery program in Des Moines. I don't believe it is the PD looking only for the best candidates, because there are a lot of them on the DO side. It might in part have been a prestige thing.

Nice thanks for the info. It may have been. Who knows. Unfortunately, it clearly is a possibility and why it happened may or may not be relevant. There are quite a lot of AOA/240+/top 10% MD students who would love to add a few more programs to their list to increase their chances of matching plastics etc.

 

[Stagg737]

It was Mercy Hospital's surgery program in Des Moines. I don't believe it is the PD looking only for the best candidates, because there are a lot of them on the DO side. It might in part have been a prestige thing.

That's pretty depressing. I've got no problem with one candidate losing a spot to another due to inferior stats or a poor interview, but when it comes down to prestige or even just the letters after the name it's only perpetuating poor relations within the field.

 

[AlteredScale]

It was Mercy Hospital's surgery program in Des Moines. I don't believe it is the PD looking only for the best candidates, because there are a lot of them on the DO side. It might in part have been a prestige thing.

What a huge shift! https://www.mercydesmoines.org/Portals/0/media/documents/residencydocuments/2015-2016 GS Program.pdf


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[IslandStyle808]

What a huge shift! https://www.mercydesmoines.org/Portals/0/media/documents/residencydocuments/2015-2016 GS Program.pdf


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It's one thing when an allopathic PD who never took DOs before doesn't want to risk taking one currently. It is a totally different thing when a former osteopathic PD (even though he is an MD) who took DOs in the past doesn't take them any more. He knew what the DO product was and it wasn't an unknown risk, he just didn't want it anymore.

 

[hallowmann]

Again, this is a program that went out of its way to switch from AOA to ACGME before the merger even happened. It matched those MDs in the 2014-2015 app cycle, so it would have had to attain ACGME accreditation in 2014, and in turn would have had to apply most likely in 2013. They were likely planning to shift regardless of the merger. It is hardly representative of what AOA programs would do given they are forced to transition in the merger. Not necessarily saying it won't happen like that, just saying that its not representative of the merger or an effect of the merger, like I said, its too soon to tell, no programs transitioned yet in the merger.

Long before the merger even happened, programs shifted to ACGME or went from being ACGME accredited to dual-accredited for their own reasons. Just look at Northshore-LIJ's old AOA surgical programs that shifted ACGME with the opening of Hofstra-LIJ. This is nothing new, and not really because of the merger.

 

[Mad Jack]

Again, this is a program that went out of its way to switch from AOA to ACGME before the merger even happened. It matched those MDs in the 2014-2015 app cycle, so it would have had to attain ACGME accreditation in 2014, and in turn would have had to apply most likely in 2013. They were likely planning to shift regardless of the merger. It is hardly representative of what AOA programs would do given they are forced to transition in the merger. Not necessarily saying it won't happen like that, just saying that its not representative of the merger or an effect of the merger, like I said, its too soon to tell, no programs transitioned yet in the merger.

Long before the merger even happened, programs shifted to ACGME or went from being ACGME accredited to dual-accredited for their own reasons. Just look at Northshore-LIJ's old AOA surgical programs that shifted ACGME with the opening of Hofstra-LIJ. This is nothing new, and not really because of the merger.

To match students last year, you had to at least be in pre-accred status if you were a five year program. That rule applied to ALL surg programs, not just this one.

 

[hallowmann]

To match students last year, you had to at least be in pre-accred status if you were a five year program. That rule applied to ALL surg programs, not just this one.

What are you talking about? That rule didn't exist until like August 2015, when the AOA released that rule. In fact the earliest any programs could even apply and attain pre-accreditation in the transition was June/July 2015, long after last year's application cycle and match.

I'm telling you, if a program matched all MDs in 2015, that means they applied for ACGME accreditation (not even pre-accreditation because it didn't exist) in 2014, but realistically they probably applied in 2013 to allow the 6 mos to 1 yr it takes for the ACGME to rule on accreditation. No program has switched over and accepted residents in the transition yet, its just too early.

After next cycle we'll have a better idea, and even that will only be from the handful of programs that attain initial (not pre, all pre means is that they applied, not that they can take MDs) accreditation early enough in the upcoming cycle to do so.

 

[Psai]

That's pretty depressing. I've got no problem with one candidate losing a spot to another due to inferior stats or a poor interview, but when it comes down to prestige or even just the letters after the name it's only perpetuating poor relations within the field.

You guys are greatly inflating the competitiveness of dos. Prestige matters and letters matter. I don't understand why you guys seem to think that there are a ton of harvard students with 220s walking around, running over do students with 250s when it is much more likely that the numbers are the other way around. That harvard guy has the brand with a known quality, better degree, better clinical years, better connections, better letters, better numbers, better research, whatever you can think of

You are making it seem like you are losing out just from being a do despite being a superior applicant. Despite what you tell each other on osteo, that is most likely not the case. There are superstars in every school. But even if you have a 250 and a stellar app, there are a ton of people just like you or even better competing for the same spots at the top

 

[235009]

What exactly is this based off of? As of right now only a handful of programs have attained initial accreditation through the merger, and they won't be able to accept MDs until this upcoming cycle. Any programs that transitioned before it started, were already distancing themselves from the AOA and switching to ACGME, so it would make sense that those programs shifted who they accepted. I mean, lets face it, those are the same programs that wanted to drop AOA accreditation in the first place, even before the transition period started.

Not saying nothing will change, just wondering what your claim that it might already be happening is based on.

The claim is based on the fact that all but a handful (mostly FM) of the programs applying for acgme accreditation have decided not to apply for osteopathic distinction. They aren't eager to continue giving DOs an unearned and unwarranted advantage at their programs.

What a huge shift! https://www.mercydesmoines.org/Portals/0/media/documents/residencydocuments/2015-2016 GS Program.pdf


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Is that third guy from the left even a US MD? Only thing I find when I Google him is that he went to med school for 6 years which probably makes him an FMG.

Also the second guy is from Meharry. I thought @Goro said that any DO school was better than those lowly HBUs on the MD side? ;-)


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[Mad Jack]

What are you talking about? That rule didn't exist until like August 2015, when the AOA released that rule. In fact the earliest any programs could even apply and attain pre-accreditation in the transition was June/July 2015, long after last year's application cycle and match.

I'm telling you, if a program matched all MDs in 2015, that means they applied for ACGME accreditation (not even pre-accreditation because it didn't exist) in 2014, but realistically they probably applied in 2013 to allow the 6 mos to 1 yr it takes for the ACGME to rule on accreditation. No program has switched over and accepted residents in the transition yet, its just too early.

After next cycle we'll have a better idea, and even that will only be from the handful of programs that attain initial (not pre, all pre means is that they applied, not that they can take MDs) accreditation early enough in the upcoming cycle to do so.

You're right, I'm mixing up my timeline.

 

[NontradCA]

The claim is based on the fact that all but a handful (mostly FM) of the programs applying for acgme accreditation have decided not to apply for osteopathic distinction. They aren't eager to continue giving DOs an unearned and unwarranted advantage at their programs.



Is that third guy from the left even a US MD? Only thing I find when I Google him is that he went to med school for 6 years which probably makes him an FMG.

Also the second guy is from Meharry. I thought @Goro said that any DO school was better than those lowly HBUs on the MD side? ;-)


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Most (think 90%) of those programs have DO program directors. The one mentioned above has an MD PD. I think that matters a lot. Additionally, I don't think the demographics in say AOA Orthopedic programs will change much. They are all run by DO program directors and most require audition rotations to be competitive. They also will take some time to learn how to compare the COMLEX and USMLE.

I find all of this ridiculous by the way. I think it would benefit DO students to have fair competition within former AOA programs. There's a lot to be said for diversity. Not to mention how poorly written of a test the COMLEX is.

 

[235009]

Most (think 90%) of those programs have DO program directors. The one mentioned above has an MD PD. I think that matters a lot. Additionally, I don't think the demographics in say AOA Orthopedic programs will change much. They are all run by DO program directors and most require audition rotations to be competitive. They also will take some time to learn how to compare the COMLEX and USMLE.

I find all of this ridiculous by the way. I think it would benefit DO students to have fair competition within former ACGME programs. There's a lot to be said for diversity. Not to mention how poorly written of a test the COMLEX is.

As mentioned multiple times previously the audition rotations that are "required" by AOA programs are a consequence of the poor/inconsistent clinical rotations at DO schools. I find it hard to believe that a formerly AOA program (which has decided not to apply for osteopathic distinction) will pass up on applicants with LORs from well-known ortho and general surgeons at a large university program +/- a phone call from the program director at that university program just because they didn't do an "audition" rotation.

Now let's talk about your ridiculous/insulting signature....

DO is only MD+++? Why no 4th +? One + for OMM and another for holistic philosophy. Third + for patient centered approach and fourth for treating underlying causes of disease and not just symptoms. -Mr. Kenobi

please, give me an example of how we as MDs only treat the symptoms and not the underlying cause of the disease? Are you implying that a patient who walks into my clinic complaining of diabetic neuropathy just gets a rx for gabapentin and that I'm so incompetent that I don't check an A1c or completely ignore their poorly controlled diabetes?

 

[Dr. Death]

As mentioned multiple times previously the audition rotations that are "required" by AOA programs are a consequence of the poor/inconsistent clinical rotations at DO schools. I find it hard to believe that a formerly AOA program (which has decided not to apply for osteopathic distinction) will pass up on applicants with LORs from well-known ortho and general surgeons at a large university program +/- a phone call from the program director at that university program just because they didn't do an "audition" rotation.

Now let's talk about your ridiculous/insulting signature....



please, give me an example of how we as MDs only treat the symptoms and not the underlying cause of the disease? Are you implying that a patient who walks into my clinic complaining of diabetic neuropathy just gets a rx for gabapentin and that I'm so incompetent that I don't check an A1c or completely ignore their poorly controlled diabetes?

I always thought that signature was stupid and pretentious

 

[NontradCA]

.

 

[NontradCA]

I always thought that signature was stupid and pretentious

That's cuz you're an MD. Dead srs.

 

[Greenberg702]

There's a lot of places where that 250 DO student's app won't even see the light of day, so it doesn't matter. That's why you've got a higher chance of matching as a MD with a 221-230 than all DOs and IMGs either combined or in any separate score profile each year. Hell, on a raw percentage basis, you're more likely to match as an MD with a 201-210 OR 211-220 than you are as an independent applicant with a 251-260.
View attachment 201792

Again, from what I've seen, the lower score MD matches to ortho/neurosurg are driven by mid-low tier MD students matching at their home programs (where people *know* you don't have personality issues, know you're willing to bust your balls, and know that they can operate with you at 2AM without losing their minds). Independent students and random DOs who they don't know don't have this luxury, and people are understandably unwilling to take the risk on some random guy they haven't worked with on a long-term basis (apart from the interview, maybe a rotation). That's why the vast majority of foreign grads who match into competitive specialties do so after being involved in research at that institution for 2-3 years. Alternatively, you can crush at your med school, rock your away rotations, and have your big name mentors call the program for you. Most DOs and independent applicants can't do this and are outcompeted by their MD counterparts. The AOA ortho programs themselves highlight this point by placing their "audition" above all else, and so DO students will likely continue to do well there. I don't expect them to make headway into the ACGME ortho match though.

 

[NontradCA]

@MeatTornado

Whoops my post was supposed to say former AOA programs, meaning those that are transitioning to ACGME. I think these programs will benefit from having MD residents. Hope that clears up confusion there. Unfortunately, I don't think LCME accredited school graduates will be ranking these programs very high. I think caribb grads will probably be the MDs gunning for these spots.



*My signature is sarcastic. You wouldn't get it because you're not part of the laugh-at-how-stupid-your-own-profession-is culture.

 

[Goro]

Have you taken COMLEX yet??

I find all of this ridiculous by the way. I think it would benefit DO students to have fair competition within former AOA programs. There's a lot to be said for diversity. Not to mention how poorly written of a test the COMLEX is.

 

[NontradCA]

Have you taken COMLEX yet??

I've taken COMSAE. And I've done COMQUEST. I've also done 25% of UWORLD. Have you done any of those? Come at me bro

 

[Goro]

As I say to my 10 year old, "These words came out of your mouth"

"Not to mention how poorly written of a test the COMLEX is."

So wait until taking COMLEX before commenting on the real thing.

I've taken COMSAE. And I've done COMQUEST. I've also done 25% of UWORLD. Have you done any of those? Come at me bro

 

[NontradCA]

As I say to my 10 year old, "These words came out of your mouth"

"Not to mention how poorly written of a test the COMLEX is."

So wait until taking COMLEX before commenting on the real thing.

I respect your presence on SDN Goro, but you're heavily biased and it shows. I don't blame you, but there's no reason to defend something that virtually everyone on SDN condemns. If you don't think COMSAE is indicative of COMLEX format, why does your school recommend it? Should I not take COMSAE seriously at all?

 

[IslandStyle808]

please, give me an example of how we as MDs only treat the symptoms and not the underlying cause of the disease? Are you implying that a patient who walks into my clinic complaining of diabetic neuropathy just gets a rx for gabapentin and that I'm so incompetent that I don't check an A1c or completely ignore their poorly controlled diabetes?

Seriously? It's a joke (you been reading osteo for a while, I surprised you didn't catch the sarcasm).

 

[NontradCA]

I'm leaving this thread. I see a lot of Jimmies are rustled and I'm just trying to provide truthful information. I'm sure you allo guys don't know about the pervasive nature of DO school politics. Speaking the truth is viewed as heresy. I wish that culture will change. Anyway, I have to go study for boards so I can come back here and bash the COMLEX after I crush it.

 

[235009]

@MeatTornado

Whoops my post was supposed to say former AOA programs, meaning those that are transitioning to ACGME. I think these programs will benefit from having MD residents. Hope that clears up confusion there. Unfortunately, I don't think LCME accredited school graduates will be ranking these programs very high. I think caribb grads will probably be the MDs gunning for these spots.



*My signature is sarcastic. You wouldn't get it because you're not part of the laugh-at-how-stupid-your-own-profession-is culture.

Seriously? It's a joke (you been reading osteo for a while, I surprised you didn't catch the sarcasm).

The problem is I've been reading the pre osteo and osteo forums too much and have seen people who actually believe that garbage. Glad you have it there ironically.

Also you'll be surprised at how many US MDs will "gun" for these previously AOA spots in competitive specialties, particularly for the sake of location like those who want to stay in their home state for instance. You're probably right with regards to IM, FM, peds, etc where there are plenty of positions that are easy to obtain for US MDs all over the country.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[Event_Horizon]

How about DO students just work their a** off like everyone else and shoot for the best residency they can. Bias/nepotism/discrimination/prestige-mongering/whatever-you-want-to-call-it exists everywhere, in many different forms. All the DO vs MD crap that is plastered on SDN day-in and day-out is no exception. Nor are the realities of GME an exception.

I personally feel the merger is a great thing for trying to level the playing field. The MDs that work hard, just as a DO that works hard, are just as deserving for the AOA programs that are now going to be available to them. While I feel the same for the DOs with respect to higher ACGME programs, that is just not reality. Do I agree with the bias that is in higher-up ACGME programs? No. But complaining about it doesn't change anything. I will work just as hard anyway. I understand that while I am doing well at a DO school (top 10%), that the bottom of the bell-curve in my class may have some additional difficulties down the road due to the merger. But why should that deter them? Work you behinds off and stop the "woe-is-me" mentality.

Perhaps I am fortunate to be an individual who does not care for the prestige factor, and I just want to receive the best training I can. I feel for those in DO schools that do, though; perhaps they should have re-evaluated when it was appropriate. Like @Mad Jack and many other DO students, I was a bit of a non-trad who was borderline and didn't want to waste another year bolstering for MD and was ecstatic for my DO acceptances. I was well aware of the difficulties I would be facing, though I was not interested in a super competitive surgical sub-specialty to begin with. Everyone's story is different.

However, the more I realize the magnitude of crap that DO schools are spewing to their students and trying to indoctrinate them into their fantasy world, the more I realize that MD schools most likely have the same mentality when it comes to prestige. Perhaps they are not so different. It seems to me that many individuals on this forum share views on both sides, and it comes out in waves any time a thread like this is created. It would be nice if people on both sides would just be pleasant to one-another, instead of all the d**k-sizing, comparative, bias, one-uping, put-down, BS that so prevalent. Ya'll might very well be colleagues at the same institution one day.

 

[Stagg737]

You guys are greatly inflating the competitiveness of dos. Prestige matters and letters matter. I don't understand why you guys seem to think that there are a ton of harvard students with 220s walking around, running over do students with 250s when it is much more likely that the numbers are the other way around. That harvard guy has the brand with a known quality, better degree, better clinical years, better connections, better letters, better numbers, better research, whatever you can think of

You are making it seem like you are losing out just from being a do despite being a superior applicant. Despite what you tell each other on osteo, that is most likely not the case. There are superstars in every school. But even if you have a 250 and a stellar app, there are a ton of people just like you or even better competing for the same spots at the top

Obviously I'm not talking about averages here. The average Harvard student is likely going to be a better candidate than at least 90% of their competition, that includes both MDs and DOs. The point I was making was that given all else being equal, an MD will be taken over a DO just because of the letters 99.9% of the time in an ACGME program, and it's not uncommon that an MD with a 240 will be taken over a DO with a 250 when all else is equal too. Despite what might be said on here, the bolded is absolutely the case with some programs, and I've personally talked to a few program/fellowship directors who said that to my face before med school.

Also, I live in reality, and understand that the "brand name" of Harvard and the prestige do matter to people. All I'm saying is that I don't give a crap about the name of the school on a CV. I care about the rest of the application surrounding it (which will obviously typically be better coming from Harvard), which is how it should be imo but isn't always the case.

 

[Mad Jack]

Obviously I'm not talking about averages here. The average Harvard student is likely going to be a better candidate than at least 90% of their competition, that includes both MDs and DOs. The point I was making was that given all else being equal, an MD will be taken over a DO just because of the letters 99.9% of the time in an ACGME program, and it's not uncommon that an MD with a 240 will be taken over a DO with a 250 when all else is equal too. Despite what might be said on here, the bolded is absolutely the case with some programs, and I've personally talked to a few program/fellowship directors who said that to my face before med school.

Also, I live in reality, and understand that the "brand name" of Harvard and the prestige do matter to people. All I'm saying is that I don't give a crap about the name of the school on a CV. I care about the rest of the application surrounding it (which will obviously typically be better coming from Harvard), which is how it should be imo but isn't always the case.

But PDs are the ones who are going to be determining your fate, and to them, more often than not, that US MD matters. And a higher-tier MD matters even more still.

 

[GUH]

How about DO students just work their a** off like everyone else and shoot for the best residency they can. Bias/nepotism/discrimination/prestige-mongering/whatever-you-want-to-call-it exists everywhere, in many different forms. All the DO vs MD crap that is plastered on SDN day-in and day-out is no exception. Nor are the realities of GME an exception.

I personally feel the merger is a great thing for trying to level the playing field. The MDs that work hard, just as a DO that works hard, are just as deserving for the AOA programs that are now going to be available to them. While I feel the same for the DOs with respect to higher ACGME programs, that is just not reality. Do I agree with the bias that is in higher-up ACGME programs? No. But complaining about it doesn't change anything. I will work just as hard anyway. I understand that while I am doing well at a DO school (top 10%), that the bottom of the bell-curve in my class may have some additional difficulties down the road due to the merger. But why should that deter them? Work you behinds off and stop the "woe-is-me" mentality.

Perhaps I am fortunate to be an individual who does not care for the prestige factor, and I just want to receive the best training I can. I feel for those in DO schools that do, though; perhaps they should have re-evaluated when it was appropriate. Like @Mad Jack and many other DO students, I was a bit of a non-trad who was borderline and didn't want to waste another year bolstering for MD and was ecstatic for my DO acceptances. I was well aware of the difficulties I would be facing, though I was not interested in a super competitive surgical sub-specialty to begin with. Everyone's story is different.

However, the more I realize the magnitude of crap that DO schools are spewing to their students and trying to indoctrinate them into their fantasy world, the more I realize that MD schools most likely have the same mentality when it comes to prestige. Perhaps they are not so different. It seems to me that many individuals on this forum share views on both sides, and it comes out in waves any time a thread like this is created. It would be nice if people on both sides would just be pleasant to one-another, instead of all the d**k-sizing, comparative, bias, one-uping, put-down, BS that so prevalent. Ya'll might very well be colleagues at the same institution one day.

If hard work was all it took to achieve good outcomes for our profession, then we would have achieved equal treatment a long time ago. Sometimes it takes advocacy and the first step is admitting that there is a problem when DOs give up all of their residencies and receive practically nothing in exchange. I do think, though, that the allo student forum is not the right place for osteopathic students to air those grievances unless we're accused of bs like not wanting to work. I'm hoping that is not what your post was implying.