Georgetown SMP, Class of 2010

[doctorhoskinson]

I am not sure what you are reading, but the way I see it, DrJD got accepted to a medical school while he was in his 1st semester of the SMP. He couldn't have taken another person's slot because school (Georgetown) already started when he got the acceptance. DrJD, just didn't know whether he could quit the SMP at this point or if his medical school acceptance was conditional upon his completion of his program at georgetown. Also, he had other schools he wanted to get into and wasn't sure if quiting the SMP would hurt his application so he is finishing up this year.

Seems to be a minor miscommunication here, I assumed the acceptance came before the first semester started and thus a wait listed candidate could have been rolled in. If this isn't the case, then all apologizes to DrJD. Yet my point is still very valid regarding people who choose not to attend a medical school thinking they can get into a better program next year. Doing so is an insult to the school who was offering admission and they will likely never offer it again.

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[gujuDoc]

Seems to be a minor miscommunication here, I assumed the acceptance came before the first semester started and thus a wait listed candidate could have been rolled in. If this isn't the case, then all apologizes to DrJD. Yet my point is still very valid regarding people who choose not to attend a medical school thinking they can get into a better program next year. Doing so is an insult to the school who was offering admission and they will likely never offer it again.

Yes, Dr.Midlife is correct. DrJD was accepted after starting the SMP in a program that interviewed him at the beginning of interview season of this cycle, not last cycle. Your points do stand are more appropriate for the person who posted the DO vs. reapply to MD thread in preallo but are not true of DrJD's situation at all.

 

[TheGoose]

Report card:

Critical Reading - Needs Improvement

 

[doctorhoskinson]

Report card:

Critical Reading - Needs Improvement

I'd been very quickly replying to things I was reading late at night. Look the at the time stamp. But I do deserve some crow for this one.

 

[DrJD]

Wow, I logged in and saw all the comments that sprung from mine...

So yes, I was accepted to a medical school in November during the first semester at Georgetown. My wife and I wanted to be able to withdraw to save 30 grand, but like I said before, I was afraid they would rescind my acceptance. I had this fear that even if they specifically said it was fine, they would somehow change their mine.

I know there are some schools that don't mind if you don't finish, and I know there are some that specifically say you MUST finish. But most, say nothing, so you have no idea.

Thanks for defending/clarifying my previous statement everyone!

 

[Pghboy18]

Wow, I logged in and saw all the comments that sprung from mine...

So yes, I was accepted to a medical school in November during the first semester at Georgetown. My wife and I wanted to be able to withdraw to save 30 grand, but like I said before, I was afraid they would rescind my acceptance. I had this fear that even if they specifically said it was fine, they would somehow change their mine.

I know there are some schools that don't mind if you don't finish, and I know there are some that specifically say you MUST finish. But most, say nothing, so you have no idea.

Thanks for defending/clarifying my previous statement everyone!

Were you accepted before your first semester grades were sent?

 

[DrJD]

Were you accepted before your first semester grades were sent?

Yes and no... No official transcript had been sent, and my letter of rec from the program hadn't gone out yet, however, I was sending update e-mails after every class to let my top choices know how I was doing.

However, the one school that I interviewed at and got accepted to was not one of those schools I had sent updates to, lol

Because your classes are on the module system you will basically get a new grade every 4 weeks or so, works out well!

 

[hwpo]

DrJD,

If accepted while during the first semester why couldn't you just ask the medical school you were accepted at if they needed you to complete the SMP?

I am sure you are not going to get your acceptance rescinded just by asking. What could hurt?

 

[Pghboy18]

First and foremost regardless of cost, you should never start a program thinking you can quit anytime you want. The point of doing the program is to show committment as well as improvement. it is no wonder that many SMPs want to interview SMPers last. They don't want you to just drop the program thinking you can do whatever you want or think you can just do horrible and make them regret taking you. Secondly, many schools require that you finish programs you start for this very reason. You really should call the schools you plan on applying to.

If you feel you can get in without the program there is no point in doing on only to drop it half way through. it is senseless.

I understand what you're saying guju, but don't forget that a student going to Gtown is paying $40,000+ for a degree that does not mean much outside of medical school admissions. It's a huge financial risk on the part of the student, and Georgetown is happy to take your money regardless of whether or not you get into to medical school. Commitment is one thing. The reality of having to support a family and save money is another. In that context, I would completely understand the decision not to finish the program after one received an acceptance. You seem a little quick to judge.

 

[hwpo]

I understand what you're saying guju, but don't forget that a student going to Gtown is paying $40,000+ for a degree that does not mean much outside of medical school admissions. It's a huge financial risk on the part of the student, and Georgetown is happy to take your money regardless of whether or not you get into to medical school. Commitment is one thing. The reality of having to support a family and save money is another. In that context, I would completely understand the decision not to finish the program after one received an acceptance. You seem a little quick to judge.

I agree!

 

[DrJD]

DrJD,

If accepted while during the first semester why couldn't you just ask the medical school you were accepted at if they needed you to complete the SMP?

I am sure you are not going to get your acceptance rescinded just by asking. What could hurt?

I totally could have! I had concerns about calling the office and asking them, "Hey do you mind if I don't finish the masters program I'm in?" The woman on the phone would say, "Sure! See you in the Fall." And then when I showed up for classes they tell me that due to their rules they had to rescind my acceptance because I didn't finish the masters.

Now this is all hypothetical, but in the end I just didn't want to risk it. Plus, I wanted to see if I could get some more interviews from other schools.

My advice? If you get accepted to your first choice school during the first semester, and they say, in writing somewhere, that you don't have to finish the program. Withdraw!! The program is great, and it is awesome to see all of this material once before actually starting, but is it worth 31 thousand dollars (The price of the second semester.)

This is my feeling... People don't enter the SMP to earn a Masters, at least they shouldn't. It is a "worthless" masters. Your sole goal of entering the SMP should be to get admitted to medical school. That IS the goal of the program. The masters is nice and all, but it is a non-research masters and won't mean anything if you don't get accepted, and won't mean anything when you graduate with your MD. This is the only reason I can think of for not finishing the program.

Now, all that being said... if you have to apply to the SMP in the first place, odds are your stats are no where near what they need to be to get accepted to your first choice during the first semester so this is a moot point. I know NO one who got accepted to their first choice that early.

So show up, work really hard and see how the year goes! You will want to finish... The material is awesome, and the thought of being able to kick butt during the first year of medical school is really enticing. In the end I am guessing most of you will be like me, and think to yourself near the end of the first semester, "Gee it would be nice to withdraw and save 30 thousand dollars!" But then you will stay...

 

[DrMidlife]

DrJD, let me ask you this: isn't it more the norm that Gtown same-year acceptances occur during 2nd semester? In your case, it would seem that your fabulous new 38 was more a factor for your med school apps than your Gtown enrollment. I would expect that the majority of the 50% same-year acceptances (~90 students) occur once 1st semester grades and Gtown faculty opinions are delivered to med schools, resulting in late interviews, waitlists, and late May to July acceptances. In which case, the money's way, way gone by the time you find out you might not have needed to spend it.

Regardless, it sounds like our new conventional wisdom is that if you get a 1st semester acceptance, you should try to get, in writing, permission from your med school to bail on the SMP. And you should not start an SMP assuming you'll be this lucky.

Right?

 

[hwpo]

I agree that it is not to earn a MS but if you start a program you should be committed to finishing it cuz it looks bad. This is why a lot of programs have clauses like this. I know FSU says you have to complete it. this is also why SMPers get later interviews often times. I have a friend who got accepted to USF Health and Loyola. I don't think USF has a policy against not finishing a program and she could have easily blown things off and just gotten only high enough grades to pass out of the program the rest of the semester plus summer, maybe even quit it. However, she's still working hard. the point is to show you will still be working hard. That's why i think its important to finish anyhow. I think its a good thing schools have such policies to finish the degree as many do.

Well Ya....you are misunderstanding the point....If you are accepted to medical school and they do NOT REQUIRE you to finish the SMP then it really doesn't matter about looking good to finish the program. If you have the the extra 30K just sitting around then by all means finish the program and keep preparing yourself for medical school. However for most people 30K is a lot of money and if they dropped out with the PERMISSION from the medical school they were accepted there are still other ways to prepare for medical school. For me I would take the time off and prepare on my own terms instead of a structured 30K program.

No one is going to drop out of an SMP if they did not got the permission of the medical school and sacrifice an acceptance to medical school.

Remember the number 1 GOAL of such programs is to get into MEDICAL SCHOOL!

 

[doctorhoskinson]

Are you in any SMP or are you talking out of nowhere? your info in some of the threads is so out there compared to those who have shown more reputable info in the past and present.

I'm with CU Boulder's mathematics department and work with CSU's SMPish program as well as UCHSC SOM consulting for admissions. I suppose my perspective is more upon Midwest medicine while many of you guys have an east coast perspective, but frankly the advice I'm giving doesn't seem to be out there.

How is telling a guy with a 3.0 GPA and 31 on his MCATs to attend an SMP such as university of cincinnati or georgetown out there advice? And do you honestly believe that an SMP has no value besides simply being a med school pad. Knowing several people who went to Drexel and obtained a PhD through the IMS connection now working with major biotech firms, I think there is some added value.

There are about 130 US allopathic medical schools and about 28 DO schools. Not every organization has the same thought process of what constitutes a good candidate. Here in the Midwest, we like emergency medicine experience because there is a belief that those who have seen some of the darker sides of the art are more likely making an informed choice. That's why I tell high school students to skip the first year/ year and half of college and become an EMT-B then EMT-P. Then attend college full time while working as a paramedic part time. You get at least four years of experience working in some of the worst conditions a person can endure and gain some decent money (beats Walmart).

This approach probably isn't the best path for those more interested in the east coast circles because you will have less time for research and more academic extra circulars, yet every single person who followed my advice is now in a Midwest medical school or decided that being a doctor wasn't for them. I'm sorry what I have to offer to you guys seems "out there"

 

[drizzt3117]

I'm with CU Boulder's mathematics department and work with CSU's SMPish program as well as UCHSC SOM consulting for admissions. I suppose my perspective is more upon Midwest medicine while many of you guys have an east coast perspective, but frankly the advice I'm giving doesn't seem to be out there.

Since when is Colorado in the Midwest?

How is telling a guy with a 3.0 GPA and 31 on his MCATs to attend an SMP such as university of cincinnati or georgetown out there advice? And do you honestly believe that an SMP has no value besides simply being a med school pad. Knowing several people who went to Drexel and obtained a PhD through the IMS connection now working with major biotech firms, I think there is some added value.

The SMP itself is a non-research masters, i.e. useless for anything besides medical school admissions. Maybe you can add on a PhD (although I don't see why you would do that, if your goal was med school) but the degree itself has no value.

There are about 130 US allopathic medical schools and about 28 DO schools. Not every organization has the same thought process of what constitutes a good candidate. Here in the Midwest, we like emergency medicine experience because there is a belief that those who have seen some of the darker sides of the art are more likely making an informed choice. That's why I tell high school students to skip the first year/ year and half of college and become an EMT-B then EMT-P. Then attend college full time while working as a paramedic part time. You get at least four years of experience working in some of the worst conditions a person can endure and gain some decent money (beats Walmart).

This approach probably isn't the best path for those more interested in the east coast circles because you will have less time for research and more academic extra circulars, yet every single person who followed my advice is now in a Midwest medical school or decided that being a doctor wasn't for them. I'm sorry what I have to offer to you guys seems "out there"

The vast majority of med students (in the midwest or otherwise) either came straight out of undergrad or took a glide year and applied as a senior. That advice might give you good clinical experience but there are plenty of med students and attendings who came straight through out of college and are good doctors. I don't really think it's necessary or even viable for most people. Your four years in undergrad are important formative years.

 

[Pghboy18]

From a different thread:

If you want to get into medical school go to two programs:

First,
Harvard's HCP
http://www.extension.harvard.edu/hcp/

Take MCAT and do well!!!

Then,
Georgetown's SMP
http://smp.georgetown.edu/

Be in the top 15%, be nice to people, and get good LOR (one from Harvard's brass and one from Georgetown) and you will get into medical school.

 

[DrJD]

DrJD, let me ask you this: isn't it more the norm that Gtown same-year acceptances occur during 2nd semester? In your case, it would seem that your fabulous new 38 was more a factor for your med school apps than your Gtown enrollment. I would expect that the majority of the 50% same-year acceptances (~90 students) occur once 1st semester grades and Gtown faculty opinions are delivered to med schools, resulting in late interviews, waitlists, and late May to July acceptances. In which case, the money's way, way gone by the time you find out you might not have needed to spend it.

Regardless, it sounds like our new conventional wisdom is that if you get a 1st semester acceptance, you should try to get, in writing, permission from your med school to bail on the SMP. And you should not start an SMP assuming you'll be this lucky.

Right?

I couldn't have summarized it better myself Anyone who gets an acceptance to their first choice program during the first semester probably shouldn't have enrolled in the SMP to begin with. However, exceptions do happen, and if they do following your advice is exactly what I would recommend

 

[doctorhoskinson]

Since when is Colorado in the Midwest?

Colorado is kinda weird in that it has much stronger connections with the Midwest then it does the west coast schools. We only have one allopathic medical school and it works mostly with neighboring schools in the Midwest.

The SMP itself is a non-research masters, i.e. useless for anything besides medical school admissions. Maybe you can add on a PhD (although I don't see why you would do that, if your goal was med school) but the degree itself has no value.

Some have a thesis option such as Boston College and people after gaining exposure to the rigors of education in a medical school find that the culture isn't for them. It's nice to have a path to go do something else particularly if you also enjoy research.

the vast majority of med students (in the midwest or otherwise) either came straight out of undergrad or took a glide year and applied as a senior. That advice might give you good clinical experience but there are plenty of med students and attendings who came straight through out of college and are good doctors. I don't really think it's necessary or even viable for most people.

The data for University of Colorado simply does not support this statement. The median age of our candidates admitted to UCDHSC SOM was 25. About 26% had significant clinical experience as defined by practicing for more than two years in a clinical and/or hospital setting. Most admitted candidates had some graduate experience and also some research experience. This data is the trend for many medical schools and why SMPs are becoming more popular. Medical schools tend to be admitting candidates who are slightly older (23-25) and have more balance in their application in terms of medical and life experience. Just look at the MSAR.

Your four years in undergrad are important formative years.

Which is why it's a great idea to enter the working world for a year as an EMT before attending college and gaining an appreciation for how blue collar America lives. If you don't like the taste, then you are likely going to work harder in your courses to ensure you do get stuck there. And making $25/hour is a great way to avoid the plague of money problems most college students face and start a savings early.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

From a different thread:

And people get Nobel prizes too. What's your point? That I'm telling someone to do something very very hard? Ok, he wanted a guaranteed slot and I told him how to do it. Even if his academics don't hold up to such significant stress, there is still lots of wiggle room if he walks this path particularly with the DO schools after just completing HES.

 

[drizzt3117]

The data for University of Colorado simply does not support this statement. The median age of our candidates admitted to UCDHSC SOM was 25. About 26% had significant clinical experience as defined by practicing for more than two years in a clinical and/or hospital setting. Most admitted candidates had some graduate experience and also some research experience. This data is the trend for many medical schools and why SMPs are becoming more popular. Medical schools tend to be admitting candidates who are slightly older (23-25) and have more balance in their application in terms of medical and life experience. Just look at the MSAR.

25 is a little bit higher than the norm for most med schools, but that still means that 50% of the class was below 25, meaning they're still recent graduates as most people finish undergrad at ~22. I would say 75% of my class came either immediately out of undergrad or after one glide year, and the same seemed true at most of the 20+ schools I interviewed at last cycle <shrug>

SMPs are being more popular because it's a good way for colleges to make money and because med school applications are on the upswing. It's true that people who had previous careers are trying to get into med school, and that career-changer postbacs are becoming more popular, but SMPs are a different story. I hung out with the GT postbacs a few times, and I would say a big portion (50+%) of their class is recent grads.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

25 is a little bit higher than the norm for most med schools, but that still means that 50% of the class was below 25, meaning they're still recent graduates as most people finish undergrad at ~22. I would say 75% of my class came either immediately out of undergrad or after one glide year, and the same seemed true at most of the 20+ schools I interviewed at last cycle <shrug>

I think your absolutely right. Medical school apps are on the upswing and that's why there is going to be an increase in the amount of total seats by 30% in less than 10 years. Also why we are seeing a huge surge in the DO side of things.

I hung out with the GT postbacs a few times, and I would say a big portion (50+%) of their class is recent grads.

Which means the recent grads didn't get in, therefore confirming my statement that the trend towards slightly older candidates is occurring. Remember for every pimply faced 22 year old, there is a 30 year old PA with 5 years experience and a somewhat good academic record. Medical schools are being pushed very hard to accept candidates that are likely to enter Primary Care and stay there. With the PA, you have a slam dunk Family Practitioner. The high academics kid is going to ace the USMLE and can get into a specialty residency.

 

[Pghboy18]

And people get Nobel prizes too. What's your point? That I'm telling someone to do something very very hard? Ok, he wanted a guaranteed slot and I told him how to do it. Even if his academics don't hold up to such significant stress, there is still lots of wiggle room if he walks this path particularly with the DO schools after just completing HES.

Oh, sweet. Well if HCP then Georgetown garauntees that you get in, I should be set.

My point was that you offer a lot of contrasting, or at least very different advice related to admissions in various threads on these forums. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it provides everyone else reading this thread and looking for advice a context within which they can evaluate your statements.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

Oh, sweet. Well if HCP then Georgetown garauntees that you get in, I should be set.

My point was that you offer a lot of contrasting, or at least very different advice related to admissions in various threads on these forums. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it provides everyone else reading this thread and looking for advice a context within which they can evaluate your statements.

Every person is different. If you are 30 years old and looking to change a career from finance to medicine, then I'm going to tell you to take a very different path than a high school student. The younger you start the easier it is to build a perfect path. But the reality is that I can't tell a person which way is going to be the best, all I can do is look at the numbers and draw from my personal experience on an admissions board and as an advisor to CSU's SMP.

In my experience, people who show several years of work and volunteer experience in medicine, demonstrate good grades, and score well on the MCAT got an interview. Some have been rejected, some have been accepted. The end result was persistence and desire. Leaving a state and paying massive sums of money to Harvard and getting great grades definitely shows a board this candidate is serious.

 

[drizzt3117]

Which means the recent grads didn't get in, therefore confirming my statement that the trend towards slightly older candidates is occurring. Remember for every pimply faced 22 year old, there is a 30 year old PA with 5 years experience and a somewhat good academic record. Medical schools are being pushed very hard to accept candidates that are likely to enter Primary Care and stay there. With the PA, you have a slam dunk Family Practitioner. The high academics kid is going to ace the USMLE and can get into a specialty residency.

Sorry, but that statement is simply ridiculous. There is ONE PA in my entire class of 165 (who by the way wants to go into surgery) and 100+ 22-23 year olds straight out of undergrad.

Yes there are more SMPs now than there have been in the past, and there has been a slight shift in having more people from non-science backgrounds compared to past years, but going into medicine from a different health professional field is something that is exceedingly common. Two of our surgical attendings here were previously OR techs. This is not a rare or new thing. Regarding apps being on the upswing, this trend is cyclical. There were 10-15% more med school apps than there were this cycle in the late 1990s. The economy and business cycle drive the number of applicants as much as anything else. The only real trend is that there are more DO seats. Many MD schools are emphasizing specialties much more than they did in the past, partially because recently minted DOs are going to fill a lot of the primary care slots.

 

[TheGoose]

That's why I tell high school students to skip the first year/ year and half of college

wow i almost threw up thinking that an academic advisor would tell this to a high school student....for any reason

 

[doctorhoskinson]

wow i almost threw up thinking that an academic advisor would tell this to a high school student....for any reason

I just love arrogant young kids thinking that college is some guaranteed right of passage that must be done at 18-22 or else. More than half the world lives off of less than a dollar a day and never get more than a sixth grade education, and yet you feel every student should be entitled to attend a program high schools are not preparing them to endure. When I teach college algebra, most of the freshmen students fail the first few exams without question. They simply don't take college seriously.

IF you spend a year in the blue collar world, then you will gain an understanding that things aren't free. Also being a paramedic is an incredible way to prepare oneself for the challenges of medicine and a nice way to become self sufficient at a young age. What's a better option, automatically going to college at 18 and being in debt until you're a 35 year old doctor or having enough money to live day to day while attending classes and having a career that reminds you why you're working so hard in college? Sure you might still need student loans, but you can cover rent, books, and all the necessities of life without being a leech to your parents.

But by all means, be a cocky prick who assumes he knows the world as a premed living off of his parents or the government. I'm glad the taxpayers are here to help you sir.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

Sorry, but that statement is simply ridiculous. There is ONE PA in my entire class of 165 (who by the way wants to go into surgery) and 100+ 22-23 year olds straight out of undergrad.

Yes there are more SMPs now than there have been in the past, and there has been a slight shift in having more people from non-science backgrounds compared to past years, but going into medicine from a different health professional field is something that is exceedingly common. Two of our surgical attendings here were previously OR techs. This is not a rare or new thing. Regarding apps being on the upswing, this trend is cyclical. There were 10-15% more med school apps than there were this cycle in the late 1990s. The economy and business cycle drive the number of applicants as much as anything else. The only real trend is that there are more DO seats. Many MD schools are emphasizing specialties much more than they did in the past, partially because recently minted DOs are going to fill a lot of the primary care slots.

Damn boy, they ivory towered you fast. We admitted four PAs to UCDHSC SOM last year and 3 nurse pracs. They are great candidates and frankly you don't seem to understand why medicine is failing as a whole. Specialists are killing the system and lowering the quality of care. From the journal of medical economics to JAMA to the New England Journal of Medicine, every study shows when you increase the density of specialists in any practice area the cost dramatically increase without an increase in quality of care.

If you are a specialist in private practice, then you have an incentive to do as much as possible. When my father was in private practice long ago, he got paid $85 for a single 30 minute visit. If he ran a treadmill, then he made about $220 in the same amount of time. Also if the patient got better, had less admissions to the hospital, or there was better maintenance of chronic conditions, he didn't get any additional money. There was no and still is no incentive to produce quality medicine, just procedures for money or for tort defense.

And guess what!? The DOs are still going to fill slots in specialties. The damn DPN is the new primary care physician and its just simply wrong. I'm glad your medical school follows a different philosophy than we do at UCDHSC SOM. But don't assume because you're school happens to do things one particular way, it's the trend.

 

[drizzt3117]

Damn boy, they ivory towered you fast. We admitted four PAs to UCDHSC SOM last year and 3 nurse pracs. They are great candidates and frankly you don't seem to understand why medicine is failing as a whole. Specialists are killing the system and lowering the quality of care. From the journal of medical economics to JAMA to the New England Journal of Medicine, every study shows when you increase the density of specialists in any practice area the cost dramatically increase without an increase in quality of care.

So that's 7, compared to how many people straight out of undergrad/1 year out? 50? Obviously a 1:1 ratio.

And guess what!? The DOs are still going to fill slots in specialties. The damn DPN is the new primary care physician and its just simply wrong. I'm glad your medical school follows a different philosophy than we do at UCDHSC SOM. But don't assume because you're school happens to do things one particular way, it's the trend.

I think the general trend in MD circles is specializing, that's why you're seeing schools like VCU putting more people into anesthesia than family practice and peds combined. Granted, a lot of people do it for economic reasons, other people have other reasons. I think primary care physicians are important and we need them for the health care system to function properly. That doesn't mean I have any interest in primary care <shrug>

 

[Pghboy18]

I just love arrogant young kids thinking that college is some guaranteed right of passage that must be done at 18-22 or else. More than half the world lives off of less than a dollar a day and never get more than a sixth grade education, and yet you feel every student should be entitled to attend a program high schools are not preparing them to endure. When I teach college algebra, most of the freshmen students fail the first few exams without question. They simply don't take college seriously.

IF you spend a year in the blue collar world, then you will gain an understanding that things aren't free. Also being a paramedic is an incredible way to prepare oneself for the challenges of medicine and a nice way to become self sufficient at a young age. What's a better option, automatically going to college at 18 and being in debt until you're a 35 year old doctor or having enough money to live day to day while attending classes and having a career that reminds you why you're working so hard in college? Sure you might still need student loans, but you can cover rent, books, and all the necessities of life without being a leech to your parents.

But by all means, be a cocky prick who assumes he knows the world as a premed living off of his parents or the government. I'm glad the taxpayers are here to help you sir.

Word of advice: these forums are not always as anonymous as you think. If you are actually involved with admissions, be careful with posts like this. They don't really cast you or your school in a flattering light.

 

[hwpo]

More than half the world lives off of less than a dollar a day and never get more than a sixth grade education, and yet you feel every student should be entitled to attend a program high schools are not preparing them to endure.

I understand where you are coming from and agree with your point but I just appreciate the correct stats if you are going to throw them out there.

Approximately 1/3rd (2.5 billion) of people live on less than 2 dollars a day. 1 billion live on less than a dollar a day.

It doesn't change your point but there is a difference.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

Word of advice: these forums are not always as anonymous as you think. If you are actually involved with admissions, be careful with posts like this. They don't really cast you or your school in a flattering light.

It casts us as pragmatic people who reward hard work and understand where the medical system could be heading and what type of people are needed to help steer it in the right direction. It's not my job to make some 22 year feel good about himself. The kid has to prove his ability, maturity, and intellectual strength before he has the privilege to wear a coat and make life and death decisions. Admission is just the first step of many, and isn't the hardest step either.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

I think the general trend in MD circles is specializing, that's why you're seeing schools like VCU putting more people into anesthesia than family practice and peds combined. Granted, a lot of people do it for economic reasons, other people have other reasons. I think primary care physicians are important and we need them for the health care system to function properly. That doesn't mean I have any interest in primary care <shrug>

This is exactly why there has been talk of salary equalization under a single payer system. And don't automatically assume you won't end up in primary care, many students change their mind after enduring all their clinicals. It's a learning process and the 2/2 system is built to perfectly facilitate said process.

So that's 7, compared to how many people straight out of undergrad/1 year out? 50? Obviously a 1:1 ratio.

A hell of a lot more than it was ten years ago. And remember nurse pracs are starting their own little sub specialization programs. It's much cheaper to hire a nurse anesthetist than an Anesthesiologist.

 

[drizzt3117]

This is exactly why there has been talk of salary equalization under a single payer system. And don't automatically assume you won't end up in primary care, many students change their mind after enduring all their clinicals. It's a learning process and the 2/2 system is built to perfectly facilitate said process.

Nah, I am set on what I am doing. I have a little different perspective than most students as I was in the industry prior to med school. I have a MS in the field I'm pursuing as well.

I don't think we're ever going to see a single payer system in this country to be honest. I think we'll see some changes and hopefully those will involve the underserved/uninsured receiving better coverage. That said, procedural specialties are always going to better compensated simply for the reason that they generally require more training and incur larger risk.

 

[drizzt3117]

A hell of a lot more than it was ten years ago. And remember nurse pracs are starting their own little sub specialization programs. It's much cheaper to hire a nurse anesthetist than an Anesthesiologist.

I think the increase in adjuvant personnel is a good thing for the industry as it helps normalize things like hours and improves the quality of care, but take a look in a hospital and actually see what roles RCNAs play relative to anesthesiologists. Certainly it's an important one, but it's nowhere near the same.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

Nah, I am set on what I am doing. I have a little different perspective than most students as I was in the industry prior to med school. I have a MS in the field I'm pursuing as well.

I don't think we're ever going to see a single payer system in this country to be honest. I think we'll see some changes and hopefully those will involve the underserved/uninsured receiving better coverage. That said, procedural specialties are always going to better compensated simply for the reason that they generally require more training and incur larger risk.

Actually you are exactly the type of candidate we like admitting to med school. I am glad you got in. As for single payer, it is hard to say what will happen. Obama has a massive political warchest and seems to like the idea of universal healthcare. Specialists will definitely be paid more than a PCP, but the question is will it be something like an extra 50k per year of training or keep with the current model.

I don't think the current model is sustainable economically and something has to change. There has been enormous emphasis lately upon DPNs and PAs as well as some specialties within the fields. Exactly what kind of scope this will involve is probably most directly connected to what happens with the DOs.

 

[drizzt3117]

Actually you are exactly the type of candidate we like admitting to med school. I am glad you got in. As for single payer, it is hard to say what will happen. Obama has a massive political warchest and seems to like the idea of universal healthcare. Specialists will definitely be paid more than a PCP, but the question is will it be something like an extra 50k per year of training or keep with the current model.

If you've actually read his proposal (which actually is not particularly very different than the one that Daschle proposed in his book) it's nowhere near radical. They want to work out some inefficiencies in the system (electronic health records) and streamline some things but he isn't trying to restructure the system as a whole. I don't see that happening, and I think we're going to see some political deadlock this year as the plan is debated. Ultimately I think we will see some money go towards insuring the underinsured/uninsured, and not much occurring in the context of general compensation.

One thing that people aren't realizing is that HMO/PPO compensation levels per procedure have been dropping steadily for years and in some cases are below medicare levels. That being the case, billing at medicare levels is actually more profitable than dealing with private insurance for some specialists and going to a more nationalized healthcare system actually is more beneficial to them in terms of compensation.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

If you've actually read his proposal (which actually is not particularly very different than the one that Daschle proposed in his book) it's nowhere near radical. They want to work out some inefficiencies in the system (electronic health records) and streamline some things but he isn't trying to restructure the system as a whole. I don't see that happening, and I think we're going to see some political deadlock this year as the plan is debated. Ultimately I think we will see some money go towards insuring the underinsured/uninsured, and not much occurring in the context of general compensation.

One thing that people aren't realizing is that HMO/PPO compensation levels per procedure have been dropping steadily for years and in some cases are below medicare levels. That being the case, billing at medicare levels is actually more profitable than dealing with private insurance for some specialists and going to a more nationalized healthcare system actually is more beneficial to them in terms of compensation.

Until we solve the Tort problems and this mess with illegal immigrants, I don't think anything is going to solve the economic woes. As for HMOs, Kaiser is doing great. They are the only major market player building a system to manage chronically ill patients well.

As for covering more people, we can't afford to cover the current people in the system. It doesn't make sense to cover even more without address the cost structure first. Governor Laim wrote a great book discussing the issues with cost in care. The basic issue is that too few take too much.

 

[stud247]

Wow, I logged in and saw all the comments that sprung from mine...

So yes, I was accepted to a medical school in November during the first semester at Georgetown. My wife and I wanted to be able to withdraw to save 30 grand, but like I said before, I was afraid they would rescind my acceptance. I had this fear that even if they specifically said it was fine, they would somehow change their mine.

I know there are some schools that don't mind if you don't finish, and I know there are some that specifically say you MUST finish. But most, say nothing, so you have no idea.

Thanks for defending/clarifying my previous statement everyone!

Couldn't you just email and ask them if it were ok to drop out? You could give some valid reasons-how you were out of money and wanted to work or travel or something. Then they would say 'yes' or 'no' but the answer would be in writing.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

Couldn't you just email and ask them if it were ok to drop out? You could give some valid reasons-how you were out of money and wanted to work or travel or something. Then they would say 'yes' or 'no' but the answer would be in writing.

That was my original thought too.......

 

[stud247]

First and foremost regardless of cost, you should never start a program thinking you can quit anytime you want. The point of doing the program is to show committment as well as improvement. it is no wonder that many SMPs want to interview SMPers last. They don't want you to just drop the program thinking you can do whatever you want or think you can just do horrible and make them regret taking you. Secondly, many schools require that you finish programs you start for this very reason. You really should call the schools you plan on applying to.

If you feel you can get in without the program there is no point in doing on only to drop it half way through. it is senseless.

I got rejected everywhere, so I need something to help me get in. No point in asking this if I have no acceptances. If I do get accepted anywhere before december, then I'll have some leverage.

 

[stud247]

Yah I think you could and in truth I don't think they'd change their policy mid way through.

There was someone in the NYMC SMP program who dropped after starting because they got in med school early. I saw this in the NYMC SMP thread on these postbac forums.

I think DrJD was just paranoid. In truth the one acceptance he got he probably would have gotten without the SMP due to his MCAT score if he got it that early and if they've made it clear it wasn't because of SMP grades.

however, sadly it may not be this way for most SMPers. Also, it would close doors to other schools or him which probably also prompted him to do more.

This is the reason why some people also don't go the Gtown SMP route and do other 1 year MS degrees and only use SMP as an end game option and not as an alternative to postbac or another 1 year MS program if their stats are higher.

I don't understand why other types of MS degrees are better? The purpose of SMP is to get you into med school, so ethically you're not doing anything wrong if you quit once you're in. I think one of the benefits of SMP or MS or whatever is that you can answer the question "what are you doing this year?" with "I am addressing my poor gpa".

 

[stud247]

I totally could have! I had concerns about calling the office and asking them, "Hey do you mind if I don't finish the masters program I'm in?" The woman on the phone would say, "Sure! See you in the Fall." And then when I showed up for classes they tell me that due to their rules they had to rescind my acceptance because I didn't finish the masters.

Now this is all hypothetical, but in the end I just didn't want to risk it. Plus, I wanted to see if I could get some more interviews from other schools.

My advice? If you get accepted to your first choice school during the first semester, and they say, in writing somewhere, that you don't have to finish the program. Withdraw!! The program is great, and it is awesome to see all of this material once before actually starting, but is it worth 31 thousand dollars (The price of the second semester.)

This is my feeling... People don't enter the SMP to earn a Masters, at least they shouldn't. It is a "worthless" masters. Your sole goal of entering the SMP should be to get admitted to medical school. That IS the goal of the program. The masters is nice and all, but it is a non-research masters and won't mean anything if you don't get accepted, and won't mean anything when you graduate with your MD. This is the only reason I can think of for not finishing the program.

Now, all that being said... if you have to apply to the SMP in the first place, odds are your stats are no where near what they need to be to get accepted to your first choice during the first semester so this is a moot point. I know NO one who got accepted to their first choice that early.

So show up, work really hard and see how the year goes! You will want to finish... The material is awesome, and the thought of being able to kick butt during the first year of medical school is really enticing. In the end I am guessing most of you will be like me, and think to yourself near the end of the first semester, "Gee it would be nice to withdraw and save 30 thousand dollars!" But then you will stay...

Thank you, I haven't seen this post before I asked you why. Anyway, what if you get accepted before March and quit before March? I think GT has a semester ending before Christmas and another one ending before end of March. That would certainly give you a head start for when you start studying for step1 the following year. But it would also allow you a nice break before med school. Most schools either accept or reject before March if you reply early, no?

 

[stud247]

BTW I wasn't saying these other options were better so much as they may be cheaper and if you are not that desperate in need of 64k option like Gtown SMP then these other programs are also other ways to show grade improvement without dishing out too much money. But again a lot depends on your situation and what schools you are applying to. I wish you well. Good luck with your decisions and whatever you choose to do to fix your own situation.

Thank you. Same to you. I did not really think about money. But I thought I could try my best in this program to test that gpa.

 

[DrJD]

Thank you, I haven't seen this post before I asked you why. Anyway, what if you get accepted before March and quit before March? I think GT has a semester ending before Christmas and another one ending before end of March. That would certainly give you a head start for when you start studying for step1 the following year. But it would also allow you a nice break before med school. Most schools either accept or reject before March if you reply early, no?

Unfortunately you can't really do that... There is a new semester that starts in January but it technically goes through the end of May! So if I were to withdraw now, or last month I would have already lost ALL the money for this semester as well as not earning the MS... If you are going to withdraw, you basically have to do it at the semester break, otherwise you risk losing a lot of money!

And yea, I was just paranoid. I could have gotten it in writing, but then I was accepted to A school, but not my top choice school. If it has been my top choice school I probably would have attempted more seriously to withdraw. Ya know?

Also as a note: There was some talk on the page before about the trend of students in these programs to be older, and I couldn't disagree with this more. The average age of all the medical schools I interviewed at was somewhere around 21 and 22... (They actually gave these statistics during the deans talk...) In my SMP program I know a few people over the age of 25, but by and large, I'd say 80 to 90% of the class is straight out of college.

They go "home" and stay in "their room" for all the breaks So don't believe anyone who says that for every 21 year old in an SMP, you will see one 28 year old PA... I actually don't know any PA's or nurses in the SMP here. I definitely don't know every single person though, so I wouldn't outright say there aren't any!

 

[stud247]

I just love arrogant young kids thinking that college is some guaranteed right of passage that must be done at 18-22 or else. More than half the world lives off of less than a dollar a day and never get more than a sixth grade education, and yet you feel every student should be entitled to attend a program high schools are not preparing them to endure. When I teach college algebra, most of the freshmen students fail the first few exams without question. They simply don't take college seriously.

IF you spend a year in the blue collar world, then you will gain an understanding that things aren't free. Also being a paramedic is an incredible way to prepare oneself for the challenges of medicine and a nice way to become self sufficient at a young age. What's a better option, automatically going to college at 18 and being in debt until you're a 35 year old doctor or having enough money to live day to day while attending classes and having a career that reminds you why you're working so hard in college? Sure you might still need student loans, but you can cover rent, books, and all the necessities of life without being a leech to your parents.

But by all means, be a cocky prick who assumes he knows the world as a premed living off of his parents or the government. I'm glad the taxpayers are here to help you sir.

I think even better would be to do 4yrs in the navy, maybe even as a corposman (but maybe just some cool random job like a diver). it would keep you from doing stupid things in college. but now it's too late for me.

 

[stud247]

Unfortunately you can't really do that... There is a new semester that starts in January but it technically goes through the end of May! So if I were to withdraw now, or last month I would have already lost ALL the money for this semester as well as not earning the MS... If you are going to withdraw, you basically have to do it at the semester break, otherwise you risk losing a lot of money!

And yea, I was just paranoid. I could have gotten it in writing, but then I was accepted to A school, but not my top choice school. If it has been my top choice school I probably would have attempted more seriously to withdraw. Ya know?

Also as a note: There was some talk on the page before about the trend of students in these programs to be older, and I couldn't disagree with this more. The average age of all the medical schools I interviewed at was somewhere around 21 and 22... (They actually gave these statistics during the deans talk...) In my SMP program I know a few people over the age of 25, but by and large, I'd say 80 to 90% of the class is straight out of college.

They go "home" and stay in "their room" for all the breaks So don't believe anyone who says that for every 21 year old in an SMP, you will see one 28 year old PA... I actually don't know any PA's or nurses in the SMP here. I definitely don't know every single person though, so I wouldn't outright say there aren't any!

Thank you!

 

[thebluehour]

I have to disagree with DrJD on the age issue of the SMP. I'm in the current SMP class as well, and I know a lot of people that are 3-5 years out of college. I also know a lot of people who are right out of college. I'm willing to say that it's probably around 50% right out of college.

 

[mpgiri88]

Hey all! I'm looking for a girl or two to live with next year so if you're a generally chill/clean person feel free to message me.

 

[rjpark2]

I just got into my top SMP choice so i'll be withdrawing from Georgetown (but i'm only on the hold list). good luck to all of you still waiting!

 

[rjpark2]

Loyola, actually. I also got into RFU and Drexel but I'd rather stay in my home state (IL) and between loyola and RFU, i think loyola is a bit of a stronger program.