Euthanasia

[sofficat]

-rabies vax required at Auburn. $600 for all 3

-some (i think quite a few here) of the terminal surgery dogs are adopted by the students that performed the surgery. kind of like a ... look what i can do! i took out that eyeball all by myself!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Kittenmommy]

-rabies vax required at Auburn. $600 for all 3

-some (i think quite a few here) of the terminal surgery dogs are adopted by the students that performed the surgery. kind of like a ... look what i can do! i took out that eyeball all by myself!

Oh. Em. Gee.

They take the healthy eyeballs out of healthy animals for practice???

I say let's sign them up to be medical school research subjects. Surely they wouldn't mind donating one of their own eyeballs for the greater good, right?

OK, let me stop now before I go on a forum rampage.

 

[sofficat]

Oh. Em. Gee.

I say let's sign them up to be medical school research subjects. Surely they wouldn't mind donating one of their own eyeballs for the greater good, right?

.

i'm not really sure what that means...

you seem to be turned off by students practicing enucleations (removing eyeballs)... what kind of surgery would you except us to do?

 

[Kittenmommy]

i'm not really sure what that means...

"Oh. Em. Gee." = OMG = Oh my God.

you seem to be turned off by students practicing enucleations (removing eyeballs)...

I'm turned off by students taking perfectly healthy pets and removing their perfectly healthy eyeballs. I'm turned off by people who are training to be vets mutilating perfectly healthy animals. What is unclear about that?

Imagine if some medical student wanted to take out one of your perfectly healthy eyeballs "just for practice". Would you be OK with that? And how about if you were incapacitated in some way and couldn't consent to that surgery, and they went ahead and did it anyway?

Animals can't give informed consent, you know.

what kind of surgery would you except us to do?

Oh, gosh, I don't know... spay/neuters, maybe?

Whatever happened to, "First, do no harm"?

ETA: Sorry if I'm being a colossal bitch tonight. I have a terrible cold, our beagle just peed all over the living room floor, and Kittendaddy is away on a business trip so I haven't slept more than ten hours since Monday night.

 

[sofficat]

ETA: ...I'm being a colossal bitch tonight.

agreed.


"Mutilating" is a strong synonym for "surgery."

Animals can't give informed consent, you know.

really? you know... they didn't teach us that here in vet school!

Do you think the human medical world doesn't use 'perfectly healthy pets?' Do you understand how important animals are for the progression of human medicine?
Also, the animals used are not someone's pets. They are unwanted, stray, sickly animals... or animals bred (and treated like pets!) for the purpose of research.
Oh, gosh, I don't know... spay/neuters, maybe?

vet students perform hundreds of s/n! there is more to surgery than that.

btw, are you a member of PITA.... or ALF

 

[Kittenmommy]

btw, are you a member of PITA.... or ALF

No, I'm just a cranky, sleep-deprived animal lover with a bad cold and am probably high on that Vicodin-based cough syrup I took earlier.

I really am sorry. I'm not usually such an enormous bitch, I promise.

 

[sofficat]

thanks. i appreciate it.

 

[Kittenmommy]

thanks. i appreciate it.

You're welcome!

 

[chris03333]

really? you know... they didn't teach us that here in vet school!

Do you think the human medical world doesn't use 'perfectly healthy pets?' Do you understand how important animals are for the progression of human medicine?



[/COLOR][/COLOR]

refer to my earlier comment.

 

[PAThbrd]

If my options were euthanasia because id been sitting in a shelter and no one wanted me, or having my eyeball removed and spending the rest of my life with an indulging, caring veterinary student, i think id say sign me up for the enucleation...

 

[birdvet2006]

FWIW, I don't agree with terminal surgeries - especially where the animal is re-used again (and possibly again) before euthanasia.

In the UK, or at least my vet school (I graduated over 1 year ago) - we did very few surgeries in school. Most of our surgical experience was on client-owned animals in clinics outside of vet school, with direct supervision from a vet in practice. Those animals woke up and went to continue their happy lives with their owners. We didn't do surgery just for the sake of learning (i.e. enucleations, gastrotomies, enterotomies, colectomies) - those animals needed those procedures.

I don't think graduating with 10 millions spays and neuters under your belt makes you a better vet. You can indeed get practice on client-owned animals, with proper supervision/mentoring. No need to "practice" on poor animals that go on to lose their lives. Just my two cents. This is my opinion and I don't feel like arguing, I just wanted to show the other side of the fence (especially that some schools are "progressive" in this area, and I believe Western University would be another one).

 

[Kittenmommy]

I don't think graduating with 10 millions spays and neuters under your belt makes you a better vet. You can indeed get practice on client-owned animals, with proper supervision/mentoring. No need to "practice" on poor animals that go on to lose their lives. Just my two cents. This is my opinion and I don't feel like arguing, I just wanted to show the other side of the fence (especially that some schools are "progressive" in this area, and I believe Western University would be another one).

Thank you. I was starting to feel like I'd stepped into Bizarro World or something.

 

[ri23]

I would have to disagree. I certainly wouldn't want to go into a practice without performing a spay/neuter or several on live animals.

 

[pressmom]

I don't like the idea of terminal surgeries and that's one of the reasons I chose not to go to Auburn as (from my understanding during my interview) it is required there. There is a terminal surgery elective here at UTK and purpose-bred animals are used. (It was also my understanding during my interview at Auburn that only purpose-bred animals are used there too.) The animals used at UTK were, in their previous lives, research beagles at a pharmaceutical company. So by using pharmaceutical products, you are contributing to their life as research animals. Most of these animals have never seen life outside of their run. When we were giving them physical exams during our physical diagnosis class, we were told most of them would not be happy in the normal home of a dog owner. I don't know if this is true, but I do believe it is a noble use for an animal to save a human life as long as they are treated humanely. I don't believe in recovering animals used for terminal procedures, but I do believe in euthanizing them under anesthesia. I don't know if I will take that elective or not.

Also, I do think it is important to give vets the opportunity to spay and neuter while in school. Here at UTK, we mostly use shelter animals to examine (for first year), anesthesize (second years) and spay/neuter (third and fourth years). The animals are well taken care of by the shelter and by the school. There are always supervising veterinarian instructors (and sometimes the shelter workers are there too). The animals are then put up for adoption and so far two of my classmates have adopted dogs and cats they have examined!

 

[chris03333]

FWIW, I don't agree with terminal surgeries - especially where the animal is re-used again (and possibly again) before euthanasia.

In the UK, or at least my vet school (I graduated over 1 year ago) - we did very few surgeries in school. Most of our surgical experience was on client-owned animals in clinics outside of vet school, with direct supervision from a vet in practice. Those animals woke up and went to continue their happy lives with their owners. We didn't do surgery just for the sake of learning (i.e. enucleations, gastrotomies, enterotomies, colectomies) - those animals needed those procedures.

I don't think graduating with 10 millions spays and neuters under your belt makes you a better vet. You can indeed get practice on client-owned animals, with proper supervision/mentoring. No need to "practice" on poor animals that go on to lose their lives. Just my two cents. This is my opinion and I don't feel like arguing, I just wanted to show the other side of the fence (especially that some schools are "progressive" in this area, and I believe Western University would be another one).

You are right Cindy, Western does no terminal procedures, but I got a TON of surgery at Western (it was just surgeries which were needed for animals at no kill shelters and at contract hospitals).

 

[StealthDog]

At MN we learn our spay/neuters on shelter animals...

Terminal surgeries are done on purpose-bred animals at the end of their study careers (i.e. due to be euthanized). They are used for much more than the terminal surgery lab post-euthanasia, including providing donor tissues (like corneal transplants) and practice of dental procedures. The terminal labs are optional, and students who opt out simply observe those procedures being performed on client-owned animals in the teaching hospital.

 

[sofficat]

our spays/neuters are done on shelter pets as well. we work closely with the humane society and provide them with many different services, including occasional surgeries other than s/n.

 

[Kittenmommy]

If my options were euthanasia because id been sitting in a shelter and no one wanted me, or having my eyeball removed and spending the rest of my life with an indulging, caring veterinary student, i think id say sign me up for the enucleation...

So... enucleation or death. Is that like cake or death?

Just in case you're wondering, I have to laugh so I won't cry. I'm sure that the majority of folks here understand.

 

[birdvet2006]

At Glasgow our soft tissue rotation was 1 week. We got to do 0.5-1 spay on a shelter animal, and were able to scrub in for other procedures at our vet school. I did more surgery outside of school during our required externships, and last year shadowed and helped board certified surgeons during my internship. I am still slow with spays, because nowhere yet have I had the opportunity to do spays and neuters in large volumes. I don't think this makes me a bad vet. I believe I do have good tissue handling skills, from what the boarded surgeons taught me. I can't believe that people would rate a school on how many surgeries they get to do...but I guess that's where opinions differ.

 

[julieDVM]

Surgery is a learned psychomotor skill... there is simply no substitution for actually doing it. I ensure that students get as much hands on experience at our school as i possibly can, because for many people this is the only formal training they will recieve in srugery.

I would suggest, and many would agree, that there is a definite coorleation between the amount of surgical practice you get in school and your ability to practice good surgical skills in the real world.

 

[ri23]

Surgery is a learned psychomotor skill... there is simply no substitution for actually doing it. I ensure that students get as much hands on experience at our school as i possibly can, because for many people this is the only formal training they will recieve in srugery.

I would suggest, and many would agree, that there is a definite coorleation between the amount of surgical practice you get in school and your ability to practice good surgical skills in the real world.

Though obviously you would have a better idea of this, I definitely agree. For any skill you can read about it, study diagrams, do it virtually, but there is absolutely no substitute for practice.

 

[Beagingese]

If you don't agree with euthanasia for any reason you have no business being in vet school. Be a groomer or a pet sitter or a dogwalker or something, but you're just not going to be able to get through vet school without constantly encountering euthanasia. That's harsh, but I'm echoing posts made earlier. Yes, we do "play god"...but by simply owning a dog you're "playing god". Isn't a dog just a domesticated wolf? Shouldn't it be out chasing down deer or something? You really think it's "natural" for them to be sleeping on your couch?

Euthanasia is often the last good thing we can do for a pet. I used to work in a shelter and it was awful. But when people ask me how I handle euthanasia in the clinic I say, "no prob". There is often still an emotional attachment because of length of treatment and a client relationship, etc...but we are relieving that animal's suffering and it is usually the only choice we have left.

Convenience euthanasia sucks and whenever possible I will refuse to do it...but if my boss comes to me and says "euthanize" or there is otherwise an employment requirement, hand me the pink/blue juice. I will still try NOT to end up in a job like that, but if it comes down to having a job (and thus supporting my children) or not euthanizing a dog and standing on principle...the job wins out EVERY time.

Also with regards to a passing comment about principles, abortion and the death penalty- you're very mistaken in assuming there is a correlation between being anti (animal) euthanasia, pro-life and anti-death penalty. I am pro-(animal)euthaniasia, pro-life and pro-death penalty. If you wanna discuss why, start a new thread or PM me. Please DON'T sidetrack this thread for that, just wanted to comment.

Ok...just stirring the bee hive...